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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 3/4/2006 4:52:32 AM EDT
waronguns.blogspot.com/2006/03/angel-in-jail.html

Friday, March 03, 2006
Angel in Jail

By Gary Marbut

Angel Shamaya, founder of KeepAndBearArms.com is in jail in Michigan, having been arrested for possession of firearms not properly registered under Michigan law.

Angel's friends are working to help him with this problem, but we need your help, right now!

We need character references from you for Angel. There is a form letter for you to fill out and send back at: http://www.marbut.com/angel.

Be advised that Angel's problem is happening in the Detroit area, where a strong anti-gun sentiment exists in the criminal justice system. So, we are asking you to downplay gun-rights and gun-related comments. We will NOT deliver to the court any disparaging letters about Michigan or Michigan laws. Stay on the high ground.

Searched for this, didn't see anything... so here goes...

I don't know Angel personally, but I've been a big fan of his writtings over at keepandbeararms.com for years. If anyone knows him and can help in any way, please do so. Also, if you know more than KABA or War on Guns has, post it here. Some pro-RKBA folks are watching this one closely. And nervously...
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:57:47 AM EDT
you have to register weapons in MI?
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:08:37 AM EDT
God Bless Angel Shamaya!

He has made himself a target protecting our rights and we all owe him big.

Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:09:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gaspain:
you have to register weapons in MI?



Yeah, WTF???


We don't do that here in GA!!
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:28:08 AM EDT
Unregistered pistol i bet.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:32:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tanam:
Unregistered pistol i bet.



I live in Texas and don't know what an "unregistered pistol" is.

Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:32:51 AM EDT
I don't get it. Does he live in Michigan? If so, it is retardedly easy to get a greensheet on your pistols, and he should know that. If he is not a Michigan resident, he is not required to get a greensheet on his pistols.

Nobody seems to know the actual charges yet. I really doubt that this only has to do with the pistol registrations. We'll see...
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:34:24 AM EDT
If you're going to be an outspoken proponent of firearms, you best have all your ducks in a row. If you're a quiet nobody, that's one thing... but he should have known he was on everyone's radar.

That's a shame.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 8:31:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
Does he live in Michigan? If so, it is retardedly easy to get a greensheet on your pistols, and he should know that.



Just because complying with their edicts is "retardedly easy" doesn't mean someone as committed to KABA freedoms as Mr. Shamaya would do it.

It was "retardedly easy" to register "assault weapons" in 1999 in California. Many did not ... ON PRINCIPLE.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 8:50:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 14-Alpha:

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
Does he live in Michigan? If so, it is retardedly easy to get a greensheet on your pistols, and he should know that.



Just because complying with their edicts is "retardedly easy" doesn't mean someone as committed to KABA freedoms as Mr. Shamaya would do it.

It was "retardedly easy" to register "assault weapons" in 1999 in California. Many did not ... ON PRINCIPLE.



Good for you! But are you going to be suprised when you get hauled off for not registering that chrome-plated Mini-14? Pointless gestures are just that: pointless.

Again, unless Mr.Shamaya was a resident of Michigan, I don't believe that he was not under any legal obligation to 'register' any firearms with the MSP. Also, Michigan grants full reciprocity to any CPL/CCW from any state, so assumming he had a CCW, he was OK to carry.

We'll see. No useful information is out there yet.

Link Posted: 3/4/2006 8:58:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
Good for you! But are you going to be suprised when you get hauled off for not registering that chrome-plated Mini-14? Pointless gestures are just that: pointless.



No. And I won't be surprised to see many gun owners ask what the big deal about "registering" guns is.

Some people in the fight understand that we can't continue to give in to their incrementalism. Some do not.

My line has long since been crossed. Your line is apparently in a different place.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 9:02:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 14-Alpha:
Some people in the fight understand that we can't continue to give in to their incrementalism. Some do not.

My line has long since been crossed. Your line is apparently in a different place.



Someple people understand the difference between 'pointless posturing' and 'productive campaigning'.

In the past decade, 'incrementalism' has gained me:

1) The end of the AWB.
2) Shall-issue CCW.
3) Transferrable machineguns.

What has your position gained you and yours in California?
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 9:02:18 AM EDT
That's what pisses me off about the patchwork of state gun laws. You can be totally legal, drive 20 minutes across the border, and all of a sudden be committing a felony, all without knowing it.

Hell, it takes a lot of study to be up on every nuance of every gun law in the lower 48. In fact, I do believe I know someone who has recently traveled to Michigan, knowing that his/her concealed carry permit was honored there, who didn't register anyhthing because they didn't know anything about it. And no, it was not me.

This is disgusting. Hell I know one good ole boy (a different one, and a little bit naive, but nevertheless) who had a gun under his car seat when driving from NY State into Canada for a day trip and he got thrown in jail for tryingi to "smuggle" guns into Canada :-/

Granted, poor judgement, but wouldn't some consistency be nice...
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 9:04:00 AM EDT
I imagine he'll have a tough time getting any help from the NRA.

Link Posted: 3/4/2006 9:04:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jblachly:
Hell, it takes a lot of study to be up on every nuance of every gun law in the lower 48. In fact, I do believe I know someone who has recently traveled to Michigan, knowing that his/her concealed carry permit was honored there, who didn't register anyhthing because they didn't know anything about it. And no, it was not me.



There is nothing to register if you are in MI with a CPL from another state. All you need is your CPL.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 9:05:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 14-Alpha:

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
Good for you! But are you going to be suprised when you get hauled off for not registering that chrome-plated Mini-14? Pointless gestures are just that: pointless.



No. And I won't be surprised to see many gun owners ask what the big deal about "registering" guns is.

Some people in the fight understand that we can't continue to give in to their incrementalism. Some do not.

My line has long since been crossed. Your line is apparently in a different place.



There are different lines for different parts of the country. It's one thing not to register an AW that you hide in the back of your closet for a SHTF scenario it's a completely different thing to not register your pistol in Michigan when you carry it on your person on a daily basis. If you can be busted for failure to comply with the law on a daily basis you better believe the line is drawn in a different place.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 9:08:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By jblachly:
Hell, it takes a lot of study to be up on every nuance of every gun law in the lower 48. In fact, I do believe I know someone who has recently traveled to Michigan, knowing that his/her concealed carry permit was honored there, who didn't register anyhthing because they didn't know anything about it. And no, it was not me.



There is nothing to register if you are in MI with a CPL from another state. All you need is your CPL.




I like to camp in MI, and last year I brought my AR and my 9mm, so I could shoot at the campsite range.......do I need to register them somehow because I am travelling on MI roads?
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 9:08:52 AM EDT
Tomislav,

You should know where their position has gotten them in California. No where. However, is that all their fault. What have members of other states done to help those in California? My guess would be that 8 out of 10 on this site have done nothing for anyone outside of their state.

Link Posted: 3/4/2006 9:11:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
I imagine he'll have a tough time getting any help from the NRA.




Well when they make comments like "While National Rifle Association officials were busy denying that they'd been orchestrating a sellout in the U.S. Senate" it's not suprising. The NRA should stay away from tin foil nut jobs. It's amazing how many people trash the NRA and then when they go and get themselves in trouble they expect the NRA to come in on a white horse to save them.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 9:17:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JarheadPatriot:

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By jblachly:
Hell, it takes a lot of study to be up on every nuance of every gun law in the lower 48. In fact, I do believe I know someone who has recently traveled to Michigan, knowing that his/her concealed carry permit was honored there, who didn't register anyhthing because they didn't know anything about it. And no, it was not me.



There is nothing to register if you are in MI with a CPL from another state. All you need is your CPL.




I like to camp in MI, and last year I brought my AR and my 9mm, so I could shoot at the campsite range.......do I need to register them somehow because I am travelling on MI roads?



Nope. Just remember to keep the rifles unloaded while in the vehicle.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 9:18:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
I imagine he'll have a tough time getting any help from the NRA.




Well when they make comments like "While National Rifle Association officials were busy denying that they'd been orchestrating a sellout in the U.S. Senate" it's not suprising. The NRA should stay away from tin foil nut jobs. It's amazing how many people trash the NRA and then when they go and get themselves in trouble they expect the NRA to come in on a white horse to save them.




That was my point dude ... he's been an NRA hater for a long time.

Link Posted: 3/4/2006 9:33:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JarheadPatriot:

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By jblachly:
Hell, it takes a lot of study to be up on every nuance of every gun law in the lower 48. In fact, I do believe I know someone who has recently traveled to Michigan, knowing that his/her concealed carry permit was honored there, who didn't register anyhthing because they didn't know anything about it. And no, it was not me.



There is nothing to register if you are in MI with a CPL from another state. All you need is your CPL.




I like to camp in MI, and last year I brought my AR and my 9mm, so I could shoot at the campsite range.......do I need to register them somehow because I am travelling on MI roads?



No. As a resident of another state, you don't have to register anything. In Michigan, the greensheet is a proof of legal ownership. If you don't have a carry permit, you have to have it unloaded and locked in a box either in the trunk or in a place where it is not readily accessible.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 11:47:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
I imagine he'll have a tough time getting any help from the NRA.


The NRA should stay away from tin foil nut jobs. It's amazing how many people trash the NRA and then when they go and get themselves in trouble they expect the NRA to come in on a white horse to save them.



Those who actually believe the right to keep and bear arms is inalienable and are offended by permits, licenses, and other restrictions are "tin foil nut jobs?"

I haven't heard Angel clamoring for help from the NRA. Please point me to such requests.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 11:49:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By 14-Alpha:
Some people in the fight understand that we can't continue to give in to their incrementalism. Some do not.

My line has long since been crossed. Your line is apparently in a different place.



Someple people understand the difference between 'pointless posturing' and 'productive campaigning'.

In the past decade, 'incrementalism' has gained me:

1) The end of the AWB.
2) Shall-issue CCW.
3) Transferrable machineguns.

What has your position gained you and yours in California?



God bless your benevolent masters.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 1:36:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By jblachly:
Hell, it takes a lot of study to be up on every nuance of every gun law in the lower 48. In fact, I do believe I know someone who has recently traveled to Michigan, knowing that his/her concealed carry permit was honored there, who didn't register anyhthing because they didn't know anything about it. And no, it was not me.



There is nothing to register if you are in MI with a CPL from another state. All you need is your CPL.



"What are you worried about? Just wear your fucking Yellow Star you stupid Jew. "

What is the difference?

So what if it is a blatant infringement on a protected Right. So what if it goes against all principle. Just do as your told and don't expect any help from people like you when the Government decides they've had enough of you...

Is that what you are saying?

"None but an armed nation can dispense with a standing army. To keep ours armed and disciplined is therefore at all times important." --Thomas Jefferson to -----, 1803. ME 10:365

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Now they are coming for the gun owners. Those who don't submit to asking permission to exercise a Right. Those who may have forgot, or were not even required to grease the right plam of some government flunky or another.

But that isn't you... so go back to sleep until simple registered and licensed possession is outlawed.

Hopefully there will still be someone left that will come to your aid as well...
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 1:37:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Eaker:

Originally Posted By Tanam:
Unregistered pistol i bet.



I live in Texas and don't know what an "unregistered pistol" is.




Move to Hawaii like me and you learn what registration means really quick. Its very un-Texas like here.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 1:45:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 14-Alpha:

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By 14-Alpha:
Some people in the fight understand that we can't continue to give in to their incrementalism. Some do not.

My line has long since been crossed. Your line is apparently in a different place.



Someple people understand the difference between 'pointless posturing' and 'productive campaigning'.

In the past decade, 'incrementalism' has gained me:

1) The end of the AWB.
2) Shall-issue CCW.
3) Transferrable machineguns.

What has your position gained you and yours in California?



God bless your benevolent masters.



What victories with RKBA can you and yours claim? Because the NRA, and a 'incremental' approach, has been pretty darned effective at restoring RKBA around the country. You're just sore because you live in a lost-cause of a state. (Even if there are some great restaurants out there!)
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 1:48:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RevDeadCorpse:
"What are you worried about? Just wear your fucking Yellow Star you stupid Jew. "

What is the difference?



To put it politely, you are nuts.


Link Posted: 3/4/2006 2:11:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By RevDeadCorpse:
"What are you worried about? Just wear your fucking Yellow Star you stupid Jew. "

What is the difference?



To put it politely, you are nuts.





You are not the first to think so. However, I'm also right. If the government is allowed to hang on to the power it has stolen, how long before people start getting loaded into box cars?

Don't say it can't happen here. It can. It can happen anywhere the people fall asleep at the wheel and let the government get too big for its britches.

And it starts with shit like this....
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:37:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:
What victories with RKBA can you and yours claim? Because the NRA, and a 'incremental' approach, has been pretty darned effective at restoring RKBA around the country. You're just sore because you live in a lost-cause of a state. (Even if there are some great restaurants out there!)



You think "shall-issue CCW" is an expansion of a right? That's not the case at all. The very requirement to go to the government for permission to carry means you have fully acknowledged that carrying a weapon is a government-granted privilege, currently granted, but rescindable at their whim.

Get a "green sheet" for a pistol? Same thing. All they have to do is stop issuing green sheets. Where are you then?

You're right. California is a lost cause. But I'm not sore about it. What hurts is good Americans and gun owners without a clue as to the onerous nature of their so-called "good" gun control laws.

I don't seek government permission to exercise a right.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:29:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 5:36:05 PM EDT by Tomislav]

Originally Posted By 14-Alpha:
You think "shall-issue CCW" is an expansion of a right?



I specifically stated 'restoring' our RKBA, not 'expanding'.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:44:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By 14-Alpha:
You think "shall-issue CCW" is an expansion of a right?



I specifically stated 'restoring' our RKBA, not 'expanding'.



Oh. Okay. Asking for permission to keep and carry is not expansion of a right or restoration of a right or whatever you want to call it, because we're not talking about rights when licenses or permits or registrations are involved.

If you had to get a license or permit to have a child, yould you get one?

If you had to get a license or permit to buy food, would you get one?

If you had to get a license or permit to buy land would you get one?

If you had to get a license or permit to post to AR-15.COM's forums would you get one?
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 7:07:08 PM EDT
David Codrea says:

I just got off the phone with Angel Shamaya.

He's out.

He's charged with 4 counts misdemeanor possession of unregistered firearms and 1 frivolous, unwarranted, vindictive count of misdemeanor menacing.

I know we all want more, especially with the last charge, but for now, we must defer to Angel's need to protect his legal rights. I know the background of the circumstances, but my advice to Angel is to not make a public statement about that without advice of counsel. Those who know me will trust me when I say that I am convinced Angel has been made a victim here.

Here is a statement from Angel that I can release at this time:

To all the people expressing support or concern, just knowing that you are aware of my situation made it easier to bear. I do have legal representation thanks to the Second Amendment Foundation, to whom I am grateful. Alan Gottlieb and his team moved swiftly and deftly to secure counsel for me, the result of which got me out much sooner than I would have been able to do on my own.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 5:07:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 14-Alpha:
David Codrea says:

I just got off the phone with Angel Shamaya.

He's out.

He's charged with 4 counts misdemeanor possession of unregistered firearms and 1 frivolous, unwarranted, vindictive count of misdemeanor menacing.

I know we all want more, especially with the last charge, but for now, we must defer to Angel's need to protect his legal rights. I know the background of the circumstances, but my advice to Angel is to not make a public statement about that without advice of counsel. Those who know me will trust me when I say that I am convinced Angel has been made a victim here.

Here is a statement from Angel that I can release at this time:

To all the people expressing support or concern, just knowing that you are aware of my situation made it easier to bear. I do have legal representation thanks to the Second Amendment Foundation, to whom I am grateful. Alan Gottlieb and his team moved swiftly and deftly to secure counsel for me, the result of which got me out much sooner than I would have been able to do on my own.



Good news that they let him out.

Utter bullshit charges. Criminalizing the simple possession of a firearm is no part of a free country. The only crime being committed here is by government agents.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 5:13:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 5:13:30 AM EDT by RevDeadCorpse]
keepandbeararms.com/news/nl/read_comments.asp?nl=55265605632933&tmpD=03%2F04%2F2006

Comment by: Angel Shamaya (3/4/2006)
"not even a hint about what this is all about."

Need rest first. "What you say can and will be used against you in a court of law." Patience, please? Just spent too much time in mini hell. OK?

"...but now I know that he is a convicted felon..."

Who said I am a convicted felon? Where? (Not!)

More later. Need sleep. Much is happening. If justice exists in Michigan, I shall prevail. This legal battle was brought to my doorstep, literally. I didn't go looking for this. But I will have my say in court before it's done. Vindictive, dishonest, disturbed people risked having me killed by local machinegunners in Kevlar who looked like part of the ground assault team at Waco. If that makes you happy, don't help me.

--AS
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 5:48:12 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 2:50:11 PM EDT
He is out.

He was charged with four counts of misdemeanor possession of unregistered firearms and one count of misdemeanor menacing.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 2:56:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 3:56:47 PM EDT by bfieldburt]
Screw him. He must have done something wrong....
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 3:02:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 3:57:15 PM EDT by bfieldburt]
And....

....Siberian prison camps for all of 'em.

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 3:06:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
He is out.

He was charged with four counts of misdemeanor possession of unregistered firearms and one count of misdemeanor menacing.



Ex-wife is the one that phoned in the complaint.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 3:18:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RevDeadCorpse:

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:
He is out.

He was charged with four counts of misdemeanor possession of unregistered firearms and one count of misdemeanor menacing.



Ex-wife is the one that phoned in the complaint.



Another reason not to get married.....or divorced.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 3:23:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bfieldburt:


Another reason not to get married.....or divorced.



Yeah... from Keepandbeararms.com thread on this, Angel said he moved to Michigan to be closer to his son. The Ex found out and called the cops on him.

Bogus charges followed. Not guilty plea filed on all counts. I've already sent $50 to the SAF folks with a note to Allen to put it towards Angels defense fund.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 12:13:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By 14-Alpha:
Originally Posted By Tomislav:
Does he live in Michigan? If so, it is retardedly easy to get a greensheet on your pistols, and he should know that.


....

Good for you! But are you going to be suprised when you get hauled off for not registering that chrome-plated Mini-14? Pointless gestures are just that: pointless.
....




Not registered where?
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 12:37:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By prk:
Not registered where?



California.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 12:48:39 AM EDT
Tag for info
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 3:24:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Eaker:

Originally Posted By Tanam:
Unregistered pistol i bet.



I live in Texas and don't know what an "unregistered pistol" is.



Same here except VA
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 7:06:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By prk:
Not registered where?



California.



A mini-14 has to be registered? I thought the lack of a pistol grip meant it wasn't one that required it. (not talking about the 4473)
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 7:27:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bfieldburt:
Screw him. He must have done something wrong....



You sound a little like the friends of Job . "Musta done something wrong ." brought it all on himself I suppose . Throw away the key .
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 12:59:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By prk:

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By prk:
Not registered where?



California.



A mini-14 has to be registered? I thought the lack of a pistol grip meant it wasn't one that required it. (not talking about the 4473)



I dunno. I was just poking fun at whatshisname, who saw fit to comment on Michigan gun laws. The CA law has something to do with accepting a 10+round mag and maybe having another 'evil' component?
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 8:32:27 PM EDT
Yep. The whole collection of laws here on firearms will get your head spinning.
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