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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/19/2005 12:22:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2005 3:33:39 AM EDT by TacticalStrat]
I'm sorry, but when I look at the quality of magazines that come in guns like Sig and HK, I am aghast at the quality of the magazines used in our military service weapons like the M1 Carbine, 1911, Greasegun, Thompson, M14, BAR and M16. The magazine is a key component in any automatic weapon, and cutting quality on the magazine will ruin the reliability of any weapon. It appears the US military must have some rule that a magazine can't cost more than a few bucks.



UPDATE: Here's some info on the M16 magazine from an assessment report describing the shortcomings of weapon systems being used in Iraq. Check out the link. They discuss numerous weapon systems.


PROJECT MANAGER SOLDIER WEAPONS

SOLDIER WEAPONS ASSESSMENT TEAM REPORT 6-03

OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM

31 July 2003

Link


Section I. a. M16 Series of Assault

Issue #1: Magazines

Discussion: The majority of the issues experienced with the M16 series rifles in theatre were attributable to the magazines. Most problems reported occurred from loading the M16 series magazine with 30 rounds. One problem was that the magazine is difficult to seat in the weapon with the bolt closed and the magazine tends to spread apart at the top, increasing the difficulty with insertion. Most soldiers relieved these problems by loading less than 30 rounds. One soldier recommended 25 rounds to ease the math associated with ammunition status. No one complained about the reduced capacity.

Recommendations: In the short term, advise the AOR to fill magazines with a maximum of 28 rounds and provide units with magazines issued with RFI. In the long term, the quality and the design of the M16 series magazine must undergo review. Combat Developers should consider whether 30 rounds per magazine are operationally required.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 12:24:47 PM EDT
Why are you putting M-16 magazines in there? Have you had problems with them? I don't know about the others but good USGI mags tend to be very reliable.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 12:26:49 PM EDT
Remember... Gov contracts are awarded to the LOWIST bidder.. Not on quality..
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 12:33:22 PM EDT
One factor in the legendary reliability of the AK-47 and AKM is the robust magazine. You can stomp on them and drive a nail with one and they still function. You can't do that with a flimsy USGI magazine.

Bent feed lips, cracked feed lips, dented mag bodies, weak follower springs are all symptoms of USGI mags.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 12:34:52 PM EDT
USGI M14 mags are crappy?
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 12:36:19 PM EDT
Allright, thats it. All of you that have those POS USGI mags just send them on over to me. I'll properly discard of them for you
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 12:36:52 PM EDT
My M14 mags were always solid, M1 mags are not so bad either. My CZ75 mags are not as robust as my 1911 mags.......


SOme countries over do their mags, but the US uses mags as throwaway items, so why overmake them?
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 12:37:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
I'm sorry, but when I look at the quality of magazines that come in guns like Sig and HK, I am aghast at the quality of the magazines used in our military service weapons like the M1 Carbine, 1911, Greasegun, Thompson, M14, BAR and M16. The magazine is a key component in any automatic weapon, and cutting quality on the magazine will ruin the reliability of any weapon. It appears the US military must have some rule that a magazine can't cost more than a few bucks.



I never had a problem with the seven magazines I carried around Iraq for a year for the M16.

(Now those crappy SAW 200 round plastic drums, we can talk about those.)
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 12:40:46 PM EDT
US magazines are designed for limited life.
I believe 30 round M-16 mags are designed to be loaded 7 times and then descard.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 12:41:00 PM EDT
USGI M-16 magazines were not originally designed to be reused, at least in combat. They were to charged with ammunition, loaded into the weapon, exhausted and discarded. They were meant to be lightweight, easy to manufacture and cheap. I'd say they succeeded.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 12:42:21 PM EDT
I don't think it's a matter of US mags being flimsy, but rather other countries are over-built.

Look at my HK-93 for example. Most anal retentive German engineering on the planet. Action more suitable for medium sized artillery. Even has a bottle cap opener. It also does not group, point, or swing half as well as an AR, weighs more, and frankly, the trigger sucks.

Now, AK mags are rugged because you ARE giving them to idiots that would use them for a hammer.

You know, this is the first time I've ever heard someone call an M14 mag flimsy.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 1:00:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By phobia:
USGI M14 mags are crappy?




Compare your M14 feed lips to the feed lips on a AK47 mag.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 1:02:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DnPRK:
One factor in the legendary reliability of the AK-47 and AKM is the robust magazine. You can stomp on them and drive a nail with one and they still function. You can't do that with a flimsy USGI magazine.

Bent feed lips, cracked feed lips, dented mag bodies, weak follower springs are all symptoms of USGI mags.



Exactly!!!! The AK47 mag is a perfect example.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 1:05:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Why are you putting M-16 magazines in there? Have you had problems with them? I don't know about the others but good USGI mags tend to be very reliable.




I'm talking about combat reliability, not range reliability. Reports from Iraq is that they are bulging and splitting when left loaded with 30 rounds.

Take an M16 mag and drop it on it's feed lips and then do the same to a AK47 mag.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 1:09:51 PM EDT
Not exactly true. When putting together a solicitation, a decision is made about how to evaluate sources. Past performance is one option. Cost is another. IIRC, experience with that type of product can also be considered. The important thing is, these have to be put in the solicitation. You can't wait until you have bids to evaluate and then try to pick your criteria.


Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
Remember... Gov contracts are awarded to the LOWIST bidder.. Not on quality..

Link Posted: 9/19/2005 1:13:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DnPRK:
One factor in the legendary reliability of the AK-47 and AKM is the robust magazine. You can stomp on them and drive a nail with one and they still function. You can't do that with a flimsy USGI magazine.

Bent feed lips, cracked feed lips, dented mag bodies, weak follower springs are all symptoms of USGI mags.



You've obviously never stomped on an AK mag or driven a nail with one. If I had any AK mags left I'd do it and post pics of it.

othing wrong with GI spec M16 mags. i stepped on two empty D&H mags this weekend, loaded them back up and they both functioned flawlessly. Reliable enough for me.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 1:17:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 1:18:16 PM EDT by eodtech2000]

Originally Posted By JimTh:
Not exactly true. When putting together a solicitation, a decision is made about how to evaluate sources. Past performance is one option. Cost is another. IIRC, experience with that type of product can also be considered. The important thing is, these have to be put in the solicitation. You can't wait until you have bids to evaluate and then try to pick your criteria.


Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
Remember... Gov contracts are awarded to the LOWIST bidder.. Not on quality..




One thing to remember now, the Govt does NOT have to accept the lowest bidder anymore for Contracts. The Govt can now grant contracts to the bidder who gives the best bang for the buck. Rumsfeld pushed to scrap the old busted method for granting contracts.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 4:35:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 4:42:04 PM EDT by scottryan]

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
I'm sorry, but when I look at the quality of magazines that come in guns like Sig and HK, I am aghast at the quality of the magazines used in our military service weapons like the M1 Carbine, 1911, Greasegun, Thompson, M14, BAR and M16. The magazine is a key component in any automatic weapon, and cutting quality on the magazine will ruin the reliability of any weapon. It appears the US military must have some rule that a magazine can't cost more than a few bucks.



Why is the AR-15 magazine the standard rifle magazine for the civilized world if is is such a POS?

Lets see how many other rifles use it

L85 (UK)
Latter FAMAS (France)
Latter AUGS (Austria, Luxemborg, Austrailia, Ireland)
Daewoo K1/K2 (South Korea)
FNC can accept it, although it uses its own mag (Sweden, Indonesia)
FN 2000 (Belguim)
G36 with adaptor
SC70 (Italy)
Tavor



Link Posted: 9/19/2005 5:35:46 PM EDT
Well, I am still using WW2 USGI 1911A1 mags which work perfectly fine with the ammo they were designed for. I had no idea they were so crappy. I will toss them out ASAP. NOT! Luger mags were pretty sad, my Sauer and Sohn 38h mags are not the most robust either. Your blanket statement is to encompassing. I have Nam era 20 rounder which still work fine. I do not use them for hammers tho. Steel pots work better for that BTW.

Link Posted: 9/19/2005 7:00:48 PM EDT
USGI Mags are good for years.

The reason the U.S. doesn't spend a bunch of money on them is because they keep coming up
missing.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 7:02:32 PM EDT
Thanks for sharing what you think.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 7:06:38 PM EDT
My M1 Carbine mags seem to work wonderfully, at least 5 were still in the original wrapper when I got them. In fact, I had an overpressure round blow out the bottom of one of them, and I just put it back together and it still works just fine.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 7:12:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
I'm sorry, but when I look at the quality of magazines that come in guns like Sig and HK, I am aghast at the quality of the magazines used in our military service weapons like the M1 Carbine, 1911, Greasegun, Thompson, M14, BAR and M16. The magazine is a key component in any automatic weapon, and cutting quality on the magazine will ruin the reliability of any weapon. It appears the US military must have some rule that a magazine can't cost more than a few bucks.



Why is the AR-15 magazine the standard rifle magazine for the civilized world if is is such a POS?

Lets see how many other rifles use it

L85 (UK)
Latter FAMAS (France)
Latter AUGS (Austria, Luxemborg, Austrailia, Ireland)
Daewoo K1/K2 (South Korea)
FNC can accept it, although it uses its own mag (Sweden, Indonesia)
FN 2000 (Belguim)
G36 with adaptor
SC70 (Italy)
Tavor






Taiwan too, though people here at ar15.com seem to favor the taiwanese steel mags too.

I prefer the USGI stuff, it's light as all hell and durable enough for me
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 7:27:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
I'm talking about combat reliability, not range reliability. Reports from Iraq is that they are bulging and splitting when left loaded with 30 rounds.



I have mags that have been loaded since before we even went to Iraq, no bulging or splitting here. Your right about AK mags being more durable but does it need to be able to get run over by a truck? If this is an issue for you you should probably take better care of your equipment (like not leaving mags under trucks).
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 7:46:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 8:02:02 PM EDT by ED_P]
Magazines with a continuous curve allow for a much more robust, impossible to tilt follower.

New, clean USGI mags work great. I'll wager that continous curve AK mags will fuction far
better with debris in them, due to the follower design.

older USGI magazine followers nosedived ocassionally, until green followers were designed to try and fix the problem.



I believe HK has yet another follower design, and I brought some tan colored ones from Magpul
several years ago, pictured below, which are a recent attempt to improve on the green follower.




Note in the 3rd picture below, the kind of follower that can be used in a continuous curve magazine.
No frigging way you can push the front forward and not have the entire follower move in
perfect alignment.

This makes for very robust feeding.

Also included a pic of an M-14 20 round mag follower in this pic.



In summation- my main beef is with the crooked design of the USGI mag, in order to accomodate
the longer magwell of the AR. This design will not accomodate a follower as reliable as a
continuous curve magazine can.

Link Posted: 9/19/2005 7:49:28 PM EDT
Two words - lowest bidder
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 3:26:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2005 3:34:15 AM EDT by TacticalStrat]
Below is a assessment report describing the shortcomings of weapon systems being used in Iraq.

PROJECT MANAGER SOLDIER WEAPONS

SOLDIER WEAPONS ASSESSMENT TEAM REPORT 6-03

OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM

31 July 2003

Link


Section I. a. M16 Series of Assault

Issue #1: Magazines

Discussion: The majority of the issues experienced with the M16 series rifles in theatre were attributable to the magazines. Most problems reported occurred from loading the M16 series magazine with 30 rounds. One problem was that the magazine is difficult to seat in the weapon with the bolt closed and the magazine tends to spread apart at the top, increasing the difficulty with insertion. Most soldiers relieved these problems by loading less than 30 rounds. One soldier recommended 25 rounds to ease the math associated with ammunition status. No one complained about the reduced capacity.

Recommendations: In the short term, advise the AOR to fill magazines with a maximum of 28 rounds and provide units with magazines issued with RFI. In the long term, the quality and the design of the M16 series magazine must undergo review. Combat Developers should consider whether 30 rounds per magazine are operationally required.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 5:49:58 AM EDT
Simple solution... insert the fully loaded 30 round mag with the bolt open, then chamber the top round.

Problem solved.

Duh!
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 5:59:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Simple solution... insert the fully loaded 30 round mag with the bolt open, then chamber the top round.

Problem solved.

Duh!


You don't want to run your gun dry.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 6:21:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Simple solution... insert the fully loaded 30 round mag with the bolt open, then chamber the top round.

Problem solved.

Duh!


You don't want to run your gun dry.



Sure you do, in most cases it makes sence, you don't tac load when threats are still presant.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 6:32:44 AM EDT
I've got a WWI issue magazine that I use in my M1911A1...I think it's probably my most reliable magazine.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 6:37:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/20/2005 6:40:53 AM EDT by Ring]

Originally Posted By yobo:
US magazines are designed for limited life.
I believe 30 round M-16 mags are designed to be loaded 7 times and then descard.





and ak mags ares steal, the weigh 2x to 3x over a ar mag, pluse the rust.. no thanks..

just make a 30 round light weight mag that can feed 30 well.
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