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Posted: 12/2/2013 3:34:46 AM EST
Was watching America Unearthed last night, where they hypothesized that during the copper age, there were copper mines being mined around Lake Superior in America by the Byzantines. It seems a bit, fat fetched, but maybe not so much. Anyone else enjoy this type of thing, or have any theories of their own?





Link Posted: 12/2/2013 3:37:23 AM EST
In b4 'it was aliens ' guy
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 3:39:04 AM EST
Subscribed.

I'm an old earther. I think we've been around much much longer than people think. It's strange picking up flint tools on our farm and knowing another human hand made this.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 3:39:04 AM EST
I doubt it. Was copper so valuable that the Byzantines could send ships across the Atlantic? Wouldn't it be cheaper to mine it in Europe? If the Byzantines crossed the Atlantic, where are their maps? At least the Turks would have had a bunch of maps when they captured Constantinople.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 3:40:27 AM EST
Before 1865 no one thought that Troy was a real city. Then an archeologist discovered it.

So anything is possible.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 3:41:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/2/2013 3:42:38 AM EST by Dino]
one of my favorites is that Troy was in England.

not sure if I believe, but they do make an interesting case

Link Posted: 12/2/2013 3:50:25 AM EST
Just because it is in a history book doesn't mean it is true... not like it is on the internet. There are many theories and artifacts in the Americas that show that trans atlantic and trans pacific explores where here thousands of years ago, our ego makes us not want to believe there were advanced civilizations here
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 3:50:29 AM EST
Would be nice to have the knowledge that was destroyed in the Library of Alexandria.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 3:51:46 AM EST
Actual history is interesting enough so that if you know it, you don't have to subscribe to the farfetched. (Not a shot at you OP).
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 3:54:19 AM EST
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Originally Posted By primuspilum:
Actual history is interesting enough so that if you know it, you don't have to subscribe to the farfetched. (Not a shot at you OP).
View Quote


Came to post something like this.
Lately I've been seriously regretting not getting a degree in history.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:00:29 AM EST
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Originally Posted By HUMONGO:
Would be nice to have the knowledge that was destroyed in the Library of Alexandria.
View Quote


or by the Vatican during the Dark Ages....
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:00:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/2/2013 4:02:11 AM EST by SouthHoof]
"where they hypothesized that during the copper age, there were copper mines being mined around Lake Superior in America by the Byzantines."

I know there is an ancient copper mine at Ft.Wilkins state park near Copper Harbor MI. Seen it myself, still got the shovel. At the time I visited years ago, the hole in the ground was attributed to naive peoples and was likely only dug seasonally by them.

Very harsh weather on the Keweenaw peninsula in winter would have been largely uninhabitable by the natives. That area can get as much as 10 feet or more of snow in a season and -20°F is common.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:01:03 AM EST
There was a cover-up surrounding the Kennedy assassination, but it involved various government agencies destroying records on Lee Harvey Oswald and lapses in security because nobody wants to be the guy who gets dragged in front of Congress to explain how they let the President get killed.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:03:29 AM EST
I really really want to know if Atlantis was a real city.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:07:18 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SouthHoof:
"where they hypothesized that during the copper age, there were copper mines being mined around Lake Superior in America by the Byzantines."

I know there is an ancient copper mine at Ft.Wilkins state park near Copper Harbor MI. Seen it myself, still got the shovel. At the time I visited years ago, the hole in the ground was attributed to naive peoples and was likely only dug seasonally by them.

Very harsh weather on the Keweenaw peninsula in winter would have been largely uninhabitable by the natives. That area can get as much as 10 feet or more of snow in a season and -20°F is common.
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What you did there....I see it.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:08:42 AM EST
I've been watching as many episodes of that show as I can, and I want to believe that there are many things historically that have been wrongly assumed as correct, BUT from what I have seen in all the shows I've watched is that the guy is completely full of shit!!! Just once, I'd like someone in all these various shows to find something that is irrefutable, just once! All I've seen is weak conjecture, at best.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:09:56 AM EST
I remain fascinated at the possibility there were trade connections between Carthage and the Mayans, essentially extending the Silk road across the Atlantic - at least for a time.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:13:01 AM EST
If they were here that long ago, wouldn't they have made maps? 3000 mile trip across the ocean isn't as easy as just pointing your boat in the right direction and simply casting off.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:15:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:16:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:19:10 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

i do believe there is a LARGE part of human history that has been lost and that findings that don't jive with common theory are often completely ignored, dismissed or buried. i really don't think we have the full picture of humanity and likely never will.
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Like the burning of the Library of Alexandria?
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:19:40 AM EST
i cant say i particularly believe one theory over another, but i will say that we often dont want to believe in ancient advanced civilizations because (a) we want to believe we are the only ones and (b) we don't want to face the facts that advanced civilizations often lead to their demise.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:21:45 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
If they were here that long ago, wouldn't they have made maps? 3000 mile trip across the ocean isn't as easy as just pointing your boat in the right direction and simply casting off.
View Quote


Carthage represented the only link to civilizations south... and it was absolutely destroyed. Pretty much all we know about it comes from Roman accounts.

Then there's this:

http://www.archivesofculturalexchanges.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:22:16 AM EST
As one poster about stated, Troy was a myth until it was found by Heinrich Schliemann. I would imagine that there might be some truth to the legend of Atlantis that is more than the play on morality people attribute to Plato


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Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
I really really want to know if Atlantis was a real city.
View Quote

Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:23:12 AM EST
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Originally Posted By LibertarianYankee:
i cant say i particularly believe one theory over another, but i will say that we often dont want to believe in ancient advanced civilizations because (a) we want to believe we are the only ones and (b) we don't want to face the facts that advanced civilizations often lead to their demise.
View Quote

If that were true, how come we're not digging up 8,000 year old plastic or carbon fiber?
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:23:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By robb01:
Was watching America Unearthed last night, where they hypothesized that during the copper age, there were copper mines being mined around Lake Superior in America by the Byzantines. It seems a bit, fat fetched, but maybe not so much. Anyone else enjoy this type of thing, or have any theories of their own?





http://goo.gl/H9XbG
View Quote



Saw that show. They say there are hundreds of old mining pits in the area and that it was / possibly still has some of the richest copper deposits in the world.
Interesting stuff ... natives certainly didn't mine it since they never advanced beyond stone age technology.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:24:47 AM EST
Last year read a book called 1491. The author theorized that Native American societies were much more advanced than presumed. For example forestry, they would do planned fires to clean out the underbrush and make it better for game management.

I don't go along with all of his theories but some of them make a lot of sense, especially that the population used to be higher than suspected.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:24:49 AM EST
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Originally Posted By HUMONGO:
Would be nice to have the knowledge that was destroyed in the Library of Alexandria.
View Quote



... thanks to the muslims ...
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:25:28 AM EST
That's one hell of a long way to go for some copper that could have probably been sourced in Europe.

So, if it is true, then my respect for the Byzantines went down, not up.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:25:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/2/2013 4:28:09 AM EST by AllserviceBilliards]
Originally Posted By robb01:
Was watching America Unearthed last night, where they hypothesized that during the copper age, there were copper mines being mined around Lake Superior in America by the Byzantines. It seems a bit, fat fetched, but maybe not so much. Anyone else enjoy this type of thing, or have any theories of their own?





http://goo.gl/H9XbG
View Quote


WTF is the "copper age" and when was it?

ETA nevermind. Copper Age = Bronze Age. FYI the "Byzantines" didn't exist then in the historical context of their name. Try again.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:26:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/2/2013 4:30:44 AM EST by Smashy]
I heard aliens sank the Titanic.


Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:26:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/2/2013 4:26:52 AM EST by The_Macallan]

Here is a really bizarre collection of alternative history:





Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:27:25 AM EST
I think a lot of archeologists loose sight that artifacts and materials can move locations and continents without human intervention.

Case in point, the Tsunami that hit Japan has scattered debris all over the West Coast, and even into south America.

Who is to say that ships, boats, and debris from storms, or just trash drifting, didnt cross both the Atlantic and Pacific (and other large bodies of water) on their own over the eons.

Unless there is firm proof of settlement, foundations to buildings, etc, its hard to say that a boat didn't just drift ashore from a far-away land and native populations didnt scavange.

This is what I think happened with the researchers who have found Chinese artifacts in Chile, for example.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:27:35 AM EST
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Originally Posted By LoneCoyoteHunter:


...Interesting stuff ... natives certainly didn't mine it since they never advanced beyond stone age technology.
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Can you elaborate on that?

Is this an assertion they would not be able to mine that site, or that they would have no inclination to mine that site?
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:27:36 AM EST
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Originally Posted By swingset:
That's one hell of a long way to go for some copper that could have probably been sourced in Europe.

So, if it is true, then my respect for the Byzantines went down, not up.
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LOL
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:27:42 AM EST
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Originally Posted By HUMONGO:
Would be nice to have the knowledge that was destroyed in the Library of Alexandria.
View Quote

Yup.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:29:44 AM EST
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Originally Posted By joshiedoom:
Subscribed.

I'm an old earther. I think we've been around much much longer than people think. It's strange picking up flint tools on our farm and knowing another human hand made this.
View Quote


Look at how far we went in just 100 years.

I know we have probably been around for a long time, but the idea of civilization only being 5,000 years old is very feasible to me.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:30:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/2/2013 4:32:31 AM EST by ArmyInfantryVet]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_mining_in_Michigan#Native_American_mining

Native Americans were the first to mine and work the copper of Lake Superior and the Keweenaw Peninsula of northern Michigan between 5000 BCE and 1200 BCE. The natives used this copper to produce tools. Archaeological expeditions in the Keweenaw Peninsula and Isle Royale revealed the existence of copper producing pits and hammering stones which were used to work the copper. Fringe writers have suggested that as much as 1.5 billion pounds of copper was extracted during this period, but archaeologists consider such high figures as "ill-constructed estimates" and that the actual figure is unknown.
View Quote


So the Native American's never mined for Copper you guys say, uh?
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:31:10 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:


Can you elaborate on that?

Is this an assertion they would not be able to mine that site, or that they would have no inclination to mine that site?
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By LoneCoyoteHunter:


...Interesting stuff ... natives certainly didn't mine it since they never advanced beyond stone age technology.


Can you elaborate on that?

Is this an assertion they would not be able to mine that site, or that they would have no inclination to mine that site?


How do you derive "would not be able" or "would have no inclination" from "didn't"? Your questions are germane.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:31:32 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
I really really want to know if Atlantis was a real city.
View Quote


Was likely based on the Minoan civilization and possible destruction by volcano (from memory krakatoa, I think).
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:32:26 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

If that were true, how come we're not digging up 8,000 year old plastic or carbon fiber?
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Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
Originally Posted By LibertarianYankee:
i cant say i particularly believe one theory over another, but i will say that we often dont want to believe in ancient advanced civilizations because (a) we want to believe we are the only ones and (b) we don't want to face the facts that advanced civilizations often lead to their demise.

If that were true, how come we're not digging up 8,000 year old plastic or carbon fiber?



Even more importantly, the natural resources that we have on the Earth are all undisturbed, except for the last 20K years or so. If any "advanced" civilization existed on a scale similar to ours, even millions of years ago, they would have likley mined and moved metals, drained oil, etc. Those resources all all still there, ancient, and there is no evidence of manufactured goods that pre-date modern humans, bar Axe heads in Africa from primitive species.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:33:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/2/2013 4:35:55 AM EST by cyclone]
Or Santorini and Thera...........the biggest problem with it is the description of Atlantis being "beyond the pillars of Heracles", which puts it out in the Atlantic Ocean somewhere. Someone posted an article here about it possibly being off the coast of Spain or somewhere near there. If it's found, Spain will claim it

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Originally Posted By primuspilum:


Was likely based on the Minoan civilization and possible destruction by volcano (from memory krakatoa, I think).
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Originally Posted By primuspilum:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
I really really want to know if Atlantis was a real city.


Was likely based on the Minoan civilization and possible destruction by volcano (from memory krakatoa, I think).

Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:33:46 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SS109:
Last year read a book called 1491. The author theorized that Native American societies were much more advanced than presumed. For example forestry, they would do planned fires to clean out the underbrush and make it better for game management.

I don't go along with all of his theories but some of them make a lot of sense, especially that the population used to be higher than suspected.
View Quote



When the europeans landed, they made records of how there were already fields and wide open spaces in the new world, ready for planting. It didn't dawn on them that you have to deforest an area to get that.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:34:48 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:


Carthage represented the only link to civilizations south... and it was absolutely destroyed. Pretty much all we know about it comes from Roman accounts.

Then there's this:

http://www.archivesofculturalexchanges.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
If they were here that long ago, wouldn't they have made maps? 3000 mile trip across the ocean isn't as easy as just pointing your boat in the right direction and simply casting off.


Carthage represented the only link to civilizations south... and it was absolutely destroyed. Pretty much all we know about it comes from Roman accounts.

Then there's this:

http://www.archivesofculturalexchanges.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14



"Carthago delenda est."
-Cato the elder
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:35:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/2/2013 4:36:16 AM EST by ArmyInfantryVet]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cyclone:
Or Santorini and Thera...........the biggest problem with it is the description of Atlantis being "beyond the pillars of Heracles", which puts it out in the Atlantic Ocean somewhere


View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By cyclone:
Or Santorini and Thera...........the biggest problem with it is the description of Atlantis being "beyond the pillars of Heracles", which puts it out in the Atlantic Ocean somewhere

Originally Posted By primuspilum:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
I really really want to know if Atlantis was a real city.


Was likely based on the Minoan civilization and possible destruction by volcano (from memory krakatoa, I think).


That would be true, because I believe the Pillars of Heracles was supposed to represent as a gate between the known world from the undiscovered world.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:35:37 AM EST
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Originally Posted By swingset:
That's one hell of a long way to go for some copper that could have probably been sourced in Europe.

So, if it is true, then my respect for the Byzantines went down, not up.
View Quote
They sound like the people who run our warehouse.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:36:20 AM EST
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Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Here is a really bizarre collection of alternative history:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/11/Peopleshistoryzinn.jpg/200px-Peopleshistoryzinn.jpg



View Quote



Yeah, follow that up by reading some Studs Terkel for full effect comrade.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:39:00 AM EST
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Originally Posted By primuspilum:



"Carthago delenda est."
-Cato the elder
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Originally Posted By primuspilum:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
If they were here that long ago, wouldn't they have made maps? 3000 mile trip across the ocean isn't as easy as just pointing your boat in the right direction and simply casting off.


Carthage represented the only link to civilizations south... and it was absolutely destroyed. Pretty much all we know about it comes from Roman accounts.

Then there's this:

http://www.archivesofculturalexchanges.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14



"Carthago delenda est."
-Cato the elder



Rarely has a military force received such clear, unambiguous orders.

Alas, any maps, documents, etc. they had, went with them. We know their civilization was linked to India, it likely had trade relationships with sub-Saharan Africa as well.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:39:26 AM EST
Correct. Here is the article about the possible location of Atlantis:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/42072469/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/lost-city-atlantis-believed-found-spain/


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

That would be true, because I believe the Pillars of Heracles was supposed to represent as a gate between the known world from the undiscovered world.
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Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
Originally Posted By cyclone:
Or Santorini and Thera...........the biggest problem with it is the description of Atlantis being "beyond the pillars of Heracles", which puts it out in the Atlantic Ocean somewhere

Originally Posted By primuspilum:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
I really really want to know if Atlantis was a real city.


Was likely based on the Minoan civilization and possible destruction by volcano (from memory krakatoa, I think).


That would be true, because I believe the Pillars of Heracles was supposed to represent as a gate between the known world from the undiscovered world.

Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:40:25 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cyclone:
Or Santorini and Thera...........the biggest problem with it is the description of Atlantis being "beyond the pillars of Heracles", which puts it out in the Atlantic Ocean somewhere. Someone posted an article here about it possibly being off the coast of Spain or somewhere near there. If it's found, Spain will claim it


View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cyclone:
Or Santorini and Thera...........the biggest problem with it is the description of Atlantis being "beyond the pillars of Heracles", which puts it out in the Atlantic Ocean somewhere. Someone posted an article here about it possibly being off the coast of Spain or somewhere near there. If it's found, Spain will claim it

Originally Posted By primuspilum:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
I really really want to know if Atlantis was a real city.


Was likely based on the Minoan civilization and possible destruction by volcano (from memory krakatoa, I think).



Likely whisper down the lane effect of a history than began as oral and was later reduced to writing. There was a period of several hundred years, I think, between Minoans and the Golden Age in Greece.
Link Posted: 12/2/2013 4:40:48 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_mining_in_Michigan#Native_American_mining



So the Native American's never mined for Copper you guys say, uh?
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Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_mining_in_Michigan#Native_American_mining

Native Americans were the first to mine and work the copper of Lake Superior and the Keweenaw Peninsula of northern Michigan between 5000 BCE and 1200 BCE. The natives used this copper to produce tools. Archaeological expeditions in the Keweenaw Peninsula and Isle Royale revealed the existence of copper producing pits and hammering stones which were used to work the copper. Fringe writers have suggested that as much as 1.5 billion pounds of copper was extracted during this period, but archaeologists consider such high figures as "ill-constructed estimates" and that the actual figure is unknown.


So the Native American's never mined for Copper you guys say, uh?



Wikipedia is hardly an authoritative source
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