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Posted: 8/15/2007 6:47:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2007 3:56:30 AM EDT by Phil_A_Steen]
Congratulations, your local gun shop is not safe from the reaches of Bloomberg. Of course you know that any gun dealer will get a fair trial in New York.



Out-Of-State Gun Case Can Proceed in NYC

By SAMANTHA GROSS

Associated Press Writer

9:00 PM EDT, August 15, 2007

NEW YORK

A federal judge ruled Wednesday that more than a dozen out-of-state gun dealers have helped criminals terrorize New Yorkers and now must face the city in court.

U.S. District Judge Jack Weinstein ruled against the shops, which had argued they couldn't be sued in a New York court because they do not do business in the city.

But the judge said the city had demonstrated "with a high degree of probability" that the shops' behavior has been "responsible for the funneling into New York of large quantities of handguns used by local criminals to terrorize significant portions of the city's population."

That "knowing" conduct brought the out-of-state dealers under New York jurisdiction, he said.

The city has accused the shops named in the lawsuit of allowing so-called "straw purchases" by private investigators. In the city-financed operation, one investigator filled out the paperwork for a gun while making it clear the purchase was for a second investigator.

Investigators focused on shops that had been linked to hundreds of guns used in New York killings, muggings and other crimes.

Mayor Michael Bloomberg called the judge's decision a "significant victory" in his campaign against illegal guns.

"It shows that cities can hold those who cause harm to innocent people and the police who protect us accountable," he said in a statement.

Telephone calls to representatives for several of the defendants went unanswered Wednesday evening.

The city has sued more than 25 shops from Georgia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Virginia. The lawsuits seek some damages and compensation and call for court-ordered supervision and extra training for the dealers.

Some of the dealers have settled their lawsuits and agreed to work with a court-appointed monitor.

Copyright © 2007, The Associated Press
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 7:26:35 PM EDT
IF the shops truly did allow straw purchases then they deserve what they get:


In the city-financed operation, one investigator filled out the paperwork for a gun while making it clear the purchase was for a second investigator.


Of course, we'd all like to hear/see any recordings to make the call for ourselves...

Link Posted: 8/15/2007 7:29:40 PM EDT
Howbout payback?

boycott NYC, now and when they get hit again by terrorists.

seriously, the big apple is losing just about all sympathy.

Link Posted: 8/15/2007 7:33:40 PM EDT
No surprise there.

Weinstein is easily one of the most liberal/anti-gun judges out there.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 7:37:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2007 7:44:29 PM EDT by Mmanwitgun]

Originally Posted By Tango7:
IF the shops truly did allow straw purchases then they deserve what they get:



and what they get should be being prosecuted in a federal court, not a court in NYC.

At no point did they commit a crime in NYC.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 7:37:38 PM EDT

Mayor Michael Bloomberg called the judge's decision a "significant victory" in his campaign against all guns.



Fixed that.


Link Posted: 8/15/2007 7:38:10 PM EDT
I would imagine this will be appealed as it should be.

I'd like to see the Feds get involved as the straw purchases occured across state lines. Fed charges should be filed against the "purchasers".
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 7:39:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LoginName:
No surprise there.

Weinstein is easily one of the most liberal/anti-gun judges out there.


Yup. After the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act passed the fucker basically came out and said "That doesn't really apply to us, we're going to keep prosecuting cases as we see fit."

Link Posted: 8/15/2007 7:42:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2007 7:43:05 PM EDT by warlord]
I think the law is unenforceable. If you get a speeding ticket in NY, they can't come to you and try to collect it say if you live in CAlif, state laws are only valid inside the state.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 7:43:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mmanwitgun:

Originally Posted By Tango7:
IF the shops truly did allow straw purchases then they deserve what they get:



and what they get should be being prosecuted in a federal court, not a court in NYC.

At no point did they commit a crime in NYC.


Agreed. I bet it will wind up there once the gun shop lawyers file their returns... if the fed.gov judiciary really wants to delve into this now.

Thee's a term (other than jurisdiction) for the scope of a court or law. I can't remember it now.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 7:45:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:
I think the law is unenforceable. If you get a speeding ticket in NY, they can't come to you and try to collect it say if you live in CAlif, state laws are only valid inside the state.


No kidding... I wonder what they can do to collect?
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 7:55:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tango7:
IF the shops truly did allow straw purchases then they deserve what they get:

What the fuck happend to Shall not be infringed?

Also if someone made straw purchases shouldn't they be arrested and prosecuted?
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 8:31:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2007 8:36:06 PM EDT by Tango7]

Originally Posted By Lazarae:
Originally Posted By Tango7:
IF the shops truly did allow straw purchases then they deserve what they get:

What the fuck happend to Shall not be infringed?


While I agree with your spirit, the powers that be, barring some sort of extremely demonstrative method by an outraged citizenry (CoC violation pending) will never repeal all of the various infringements going all the way back to the 1934 NFA.

Shit... we can't even get the folks on ARFCOM to vote, much less enough folks for DC to notice.

Until jihadists carrying (real / FA) AK's storm the "doorbusters" sale at the mall, and disrupt the local tryouts for American Idol, (or take a school) Joe and Jane Couchpotato could really give a shit. Even then, they'd probably be led happily by the MSM in blaming the "Easy access to 'Assault Weapons', including RPG-7's" and call for more restrictions without knowing the difference between a barrel shroud and a clip... er... magazine.


Also if someone made straw purchases shouldn't they be arrested and prosecuted?


A freelance guy, like the east coast libtard columnist / radio guy (Ma?) who straw purchased in Pa. as a "fact finding" trip to the gun show is facing charges for doing just that.

But of course, the investigators that were performing these acts were doing so in the name of "justice" , and theoretically with some form of "official" sanction.
It unfortunately falls under the same category as an UC in a drug or prostitution sting.

NOW... that being said... wouldn't it be delicious if a higher court ruled that said investigators were well outside their regular jurisdiction when they committed these acts, and restricted / excluded their testimony / evidence?

After all, unless Bloomers had arranged some form of "cooperative relationship" on an official basis with the AG's of the other respective states OR had the agents named somehow as Federal Officers, the investigators were not federal agents - as such, their "blessing" as an LEO (other than HR 218 ) should effectively end at the state line.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 8:41:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2007 8:51:53 PM EDT by Tango7]
Interesting find about this case here...


Not quite. The main problem with Bloomberg's "investigation" was that he left the Feds completely out of the loop. The people he had making the purchases were either Illinois law enforcement personnel or civilian investigators.

As I remember from working in a gun store, the Illinois folks can't legally buy firearms outside the state of Illinois, so if they participated in the sales they committed felonies. If the civilian investigators participated in straw purchases, they also committed felonies.



Hmmm... of course, as an Illannoys resident, I have to ask...

WTF were Illannoys LEO's doing working for Bloomers?

Another intereting tidbit: Here

Cobb County police heard gunfire last Dec. 22 when they arrived at the Tramore Apartments in Austell after answering an emergency call about a home invasion. Then they found three bodies. Herb Pritchard and his fiancee, Lela Alford, apparently died in a lovers' quarrel.

The third victim was Alford's daughter, 28-year-old private investigator Tanya Nooner. Her slaying was almost certainly a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Yet Nooner's death by gun violence was a sad irony, considering her most famous customer and the nature of the case upon which she was working: an anti-gun crusade launched by New York Mayor – and possible independent presidential candidate – Michael Bloomberg. The city's legal machine had hired Nooner to snare Georgia gun sellers whose firearms ended up in the hands of murderers, thugs and thieves in New York.

<snip>

On April 8, 2006, Tanya Nooner was operating undercover when she visited Adventure Outdoors on South Cobb Drive. It's not just a shop. It's a megastore that dispenses almost 500 guns a month -- more than 94,000 firearms over the last three decades -- to the well-armed citizenry of North Georgia. And, Bloomberg's lawyers argue, the store was peddling firearms to a few folks who shouldn't own guns, which is why Nooner was posing as a buyer shopping for a Glock 26 handgun.
Nooner attempted to make what in the gun trade is dubbed a "straw" purchase. That happens when someone who may be ineligible to own a gun uses another person to buy it. Straw purchases are a violation of federal law.

<snip>

Nooner actually was executing what could be described as a "straw-straw" purchase – a sting, although local law enforcement agencies weren't consulted about New York's forays into Georgia. Bloomberg's federal lawsuit accuses Adventure Outdoors of being cavalier in checking buyers' gun-eligibility bona fides, based on Nooner's purchase. She and an associate allegedly acted as if they were making a "straw" purchase – and the gun shop didn't care, according to the litigation.

<snip>

The New York complaint itself is ambiguous, conceding that there's been "no transfer of the gun by the straw purchaser necessary for an actual straw sale." And the lawsuit acknowledges that a proper background check was performed.

ORLY?

And another...


Bloomberg, City Stall on Releasing Evidence Regarding Illegal Guns
By BRADLEY HOPE
Staff Reporter of the Sun
August 28, 2006

More than three months after Mayor Bloomberg's announcement that he had sent private investigators into five states to catch gun dealers making illegal sales, he is refusing to turn over the evidence they've gathered to the federal agency that investigates illegal guns.

Analysts said the impasse may have slowed the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms in its investigation of and possible action against gun dealers that broke the law.

The city won't turn over the evidence, which includes videotapes of gun dealers allowing so-called straw purchases of guns, until the ATF signs an evidence-sharing agreement that would prohibit the agency from "publicly disclosing evidence without notice and consent from the city," the mayor's criminal justice coordinator, John Feinblatt, said.

The inability of the two sides to come to an agreement is due in part to what the ATF perceived as the mayor's infringement on its jurisdiction, analysts and law enforcement sources said.

At a May press conference announcing the sting operations, Mr. Bloomberg criticized the agency, saying it was "asleep at the switch" when it comes to stemming the flow of illegal guns to the city. Soon after, the ATF, which says it was given no prior information about the private investigations, announced it would be looking into not only the dealers the mayor alleged were illegally selling guns, but the mayor's investigators as well.



Well.. looks like the NY judge can rule however he wants... a smart attorney will argue that this falls under federal purview (remebered it! ) rather than NYC/NYS and hopefully get it tossed... maybe with some criminal charges against the "investigators".

After all, PI's aren't supposed to break the law while effecting an investigation, are they?!
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 8:51:27 PM EDT
All in the firearms business who feel it's wrong for what their trying to do should stand together than and cut off any sales of firearms, ammunition and parts for any agency in NYC.
Fight fire with fire.
They want to place blame for the action of others, cut off normal citizens from bearing arms and protecting themselves, than anyone that stand on Bloomberg's and the draconian laws side should feel what it's like to not be treated with respect.

Honestly with any city, state or federal agency that supports trying to take or hamper our freedoms should not have it any different.
It was never suppose to be a we're the children and the goverment is the parent society.
If we can't have it, they shouldn't either. Fairs fair.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 8:55:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Achilles1:
All in the firearms business who feel it's wrong for what their trying to do should stand together than and cut off any sales of firearms, ammunition and parts for any agency in NYC.
Fight fire with fire.
They want to place blame for the action of others, cut off normal citizens from bearing arms and protecting themselves, than anyone that stand on Bloomberg's and the draconian laws side should feel what it's like to not be treated with respect.

Honestly with any city, state or federal agency that supports trying to take or hamper our freedoms should not have it any different.
It was never suppose to be a we're the children and the goverment is the parent society.
If we can't have it, they shouldn't either. Fairs fair.


I would actually like to see that happen. Just like Barrett did with Kali. The problem is that I highly doubt that you could get all the manufacturers to go for it.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 9:04:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2007 9:06:19 PM EDT by Achilles1]

Originally Posted By Brians_45:

Originally Posted By Achilles1:
All in the firearms business who feel it's wrong for what their trying to do should stand together than and cut off any sales of firearms, ammunition and parts for any agency in NYC.
Fight fire with fire.
They want to place blame for the action of others, cut off normal citizens from bearing arms and protecting themselves, than anyone that stand on Bloomberg's and the draconian laws side should feel what it's like to not be treated with respect.

Honestly with any city, state or federal agency that supports trying to take or hamper our freedoms should not have it any different.
It was never suppose to be a we're the children and the goverment is the parent society.
If we can't have it, they shouldn't either. Fairs fair.


I would actually like to see that happen. Just like Barrett did with Kali. The problem is that I highly doubt that you could get all the manufacturers to go for it.


It's really the strongest thing I think they could do with the further tightening grip on the firearms industry. The reality is it's only going to get worse and they may have no choice. It should stop them in their tracks when every agency crys out and feels what we feel telling them to cut the shit out.
It would be the true gun to their head to stop them from pulling anymore bullshit in the future.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 9:06:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brians_45:

Originally Posted By Achilles1:
All in the firearms business who feel it's wrong for what their trying to do should stand together than and cut off any sales of firearms, ammunition and parts for any agency in NYC.

If we can't have it, they shouldn't either. Fairs fair.


I would actually like to see that happen. Just like Barrett did with Kali. The problem is that I highly doubt that you could get all the manufacturers to go for it.


<cough> Smith & Wesson* agreement with Clinton <cough>

*I know, it was the former British owners... principle still applies.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 9:10:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2007 9:11:05 PM EDT by Achilles1]

Originally Posted By Tango7:

Originally Posted By Brians_45:

Originally Posted By Achilles1:
All in the firearms business who feel it's wrong for what their trying to do should stand together than and cut off any sales of firearms, ammunition and parts for any agency in NYC.

If we can't have it, they shouldn't either. Fairs fair.


I would actually like to see that happen. Just like Barrett did with Kali. The problem is that I highly doubt that you could get all the manufacturers to go for it.


<cough> Smith & Wesson* agreement with Clinton <cough>

*I know, it was the former British owners... principle still applies.


I don't how hard it is for anyone in the firearms industry or consumer to see that what effects one, will eventually have some effect on the rest of us.
It's like a ripple in the pond.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 9:12:22 PM EDT
So, if someone buys a vehicle out of state then uses that vehicle to commit a crime in NYC, is the city now going to go after the car dealer???
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 9:20:38 PM EDT
you would never get the foreign companies to comply with any boycott

I guarantee HK would sell NYC guns no mater how much shit they pull
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 9:26:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2007 9:32:23 PM EDT by Achilles1]

Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:
you would never get the foreign companies to comply with any boycott

I guarantee HK would sell NYC guns no mater how much shit they pull


Even HK firearms would still need to go through a dealer or wholesaler for atleast some sales whether federal, state or city.
Either way it will still make it so tough on them they'd feel it hard.
However they'd work to get around it, the industry and a pro-gun associations could work against them to see they don't.
Consumers and industry could boycott buying from and supplying the dealers that didn't and give support to the ones that did.

It would just need to start with everyone getting on the same page. NRA you listening?

I know I'm in. This kind of shit has gone on long enough and we need to make them stop.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 9:36:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Achilles1:
All in the firearms business who feel it's wrong for what their trying to do should stand together than and cut off any sales of firearms, ammunition and parts for any agency in NYC.
Fight fire with fire.
They want to place blame for the action of others, cut off normal citizens from bearing arms and protecting themselves, than anyone that stand on Bloomberg's and the draconian laws side should feel what it's like to not be treated with respect.

Honestly with any city, state or federal agency that supports trying to take or hamper our freedoms should not have it any different.
It was never suppose to be a we're the children and the goverment is the parent society.
If we can't have it, they shouldn't either. Fairs fair.


Please send me your address so I can come and get some ammo and any spare parts I may require in the future
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 9:50:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2007 9:51:18 PM EDT by Achilles1]

Originally Posted By pdsarge:

Originally Posted By Achilles1:
All in the firearms business who feel it's wrong for what their trying to do should stand together than and cut off any sales of firearms, ammunition and parts for any agency in NYC.
Fight fire with fire.
They want to place blame for the action of others, cut off normal citizens from bearing arms and protecting themselves, than anyone that stand on Bloomberg's and the draconian laws side should feel what it's like to not be treated with respect.

Honestly with any city, state or federal agency that supports trying to take or hamper our freedoms should not have it any different.
It was never suppose to be a we're the children and the goverment is the parent society.
If we can't have it, they shouldn't either. Fairs fair.


Please send me your address so I can come and get some ammo and any spare parts I may require in the future


Should I take that as who's side your on?

Sorry, none to spare.
Link Posted: 8/16/2007 3:22:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Steve_in_PA:
So, if someone buys a vehicle out of state then uses that vehicle to commit a crime in NYC, is the city now going to go after the car dealer???


See this link
Link Posted: 8/16/2007 3:25:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Achilles1:
All in the firearms business who feel it's wrong for what their trying to do should stand together than and cut off any sales of firearms, ammunition and parts for any agency in NYC.


It's been tried. A few companies refused to play.
Link Posted: 8/16/2007 9:30:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Achilles1:

Originally Posted By pdsarge:

Originally Posted By Achilles1:
All in the firearms business who feel it's wrong for what their trying to do should stand together than and cut off any sales of firearms, ammunition and parts for any agency in NYC.
Fight fire with fire.
They want to place blame for the action of others, cut off normal citizens from bearing arms and protecting themselves, than anyone that stand on Bloomberg's and the draconian laws side should feel what it's like to not be treated with respect.

Honestly with any city, state or federal agency that supports trying to take or hamper our freedoms should not have it any different.
It was never suppose to be a we're the children and the goverment is the parent society.
If we can't have it, they shouldn't either. Fairs fair.


Please send me your address so I can come and get some ammo and any spare parts I may require in the future


Should I take that as who's side your on?

Sorry, none to spare.


If you knew me, you'd feel ridiculous by even typing that
My statement was meant to point out that there are those here that have the same beliefs you do and don't need or want to be subjected to constraints like you suggested.
Your plan would actually further the liberal/socialist agenda. Bloomberg or Guiliani can never be allowed to be President. The country as a whole is out of control and unless we stop typing and actually start working to change the social/moral slide we are currently in, all of us will suffer greatly..
Link Posted: 8/16/2007 9:49:35 AM EDT
Minimum contacts for long-arm jurisdiction? Article doesn't tell us enough to be able to form any kind of legitimate opinion....would be interesting to know. If the contacts are merely incidental (i.e. guns sold out of the jurisdiction just happened to wind up within it) I would expect an appeal in short order.
Link Posted: 8/16/2007 10:03:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By legalese77:
Minimum contacts for long-arm jurisdiction? Article doesn't tell us enough to be able to form any kind of legitimate opinion....would be interesting to know. If the contacts are merely incidental (i.e. guns sold out of the jurisdiction just happened to wind up within it) I would expect an appeal in short order.



My thoughts too. I'm not an expert on long arm jurisdiction for products in the stream of commerce, but I'd bet the defense attorneys for the gun companies certainly are (or will be).

It's a bullshit suit.

To answer a previous poster: the Uniform Foreign Judgments Act makes it easy to register and enforce a foreign (out of state) judgment in another state. Judgments can and do follow defendants from state to state.
Link Posted: 8/16/2007 10:12:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:
I think the law is unenforceable. If you get a speeding ticket in NY, they can't come to you and try to collect it say if you live in CAlif, state laws are only valid inside the state.


In that case it is quite easy actually, it is called an arrest warrant.
Link Posted: 8/16/2007 10:15:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ParatrooperJJ:

Originally Posted By warlord:
I think the law is unenforceable. If you get a speeding ticket in NY, they can't come to you and try to collect it say if you live in CAlif, state laws are only valid inside the state.


In that case it is quite easy actually, it is called an arrest warrant.


You still need to be extradited.
Link Posted: 8/16/2007 10:19:34 AM EDT
Doesn't the law require knowledge that the person receiving the gun would have been ineligible to purchase it in the first place?


IIRC wasn't the person cited as being the actual reciever of the firearm usualy a spouse?
Link Posted: 8/16/2007 10:22:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/16/2007 10:23:05 AM EDT by bullyforyou]


so, what would happen if one of these eeeeeevil gun dealers just, doesn't bother to show up or refuses to even acknowledge the court?

what can a NYC court do to a business or person that lives and works in another state?


Link Posted: 8/16/2007 11:38:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:

Originally Posted By ParatrooperJJ:

Originally Posted By warlord:
I think the law is unenforceable. If you get a speeding ticket in NY, they can't come to you and try to collect it say if you live in CAlif, state laws are only valid inside the state.


In that case it is quite easy actually, it is called an arrest warrant.


You still need to be extradited.


Yep, that's a ten minute hearing.
Link Posted: 8/16/2007 1:33:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:
I think the law is unenforceable. If you get a speeding ticket in NY, they can't come to you and try to collect it say if you live in CAlif, state laws are only valid inside the state.



Originally Posted By bullyforyou:

so, what would happen if one of these eeeeeevil gun dealers just, doesn't bother to show up or refuses to even acknowledge the court?

what can a NYC court do to a business or person that lives and works in another state?



If you're actually in NY when you commit the offense, you're screwed. See responses about warrants.

But that's not the issue. What Bloomers is effectively trying to do is

A) enforce federal law and
B) enforce NYC laws outside of NYC.

A better comparison would be that NYS has a speed limit of "X", for the urposes here say it's 65 mph.

A private investigator in North Dakota witnesses you driving at 75.

NYS attempts to charge you under NY penal code for speeding... IN NORTH DAKOTA

Libtards.
Link Posted: 8/16/2007 4:14:41 PM EDT
Bloomberg can suck it.

He is king nanny.

Can't we wall in NY city and keep their BS out of the rest of the country?

Really, Bloomberg is outlawing smoking in cars, bars, and now suing Georgia business?

He can F himself
Link Posted: 8/16/2007 5:36:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Achilles1:

Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:
you would never get the foreign companies to comply with any boycott

I guarantee HK would sell NYC guns no mater how much shit they pull


Even HK firearms would still need to go through a dealer or wholesaler for atlas some sales whether federal, state or city.


I agree with you idea 100% and not trying to argue
but are you aware how large gun purchase contracts work?

no dealer/distributor needed they can ship factory direct to the police station

that's how most NEW police class 3 stuff works also regardless of volume

only time a dealer enters the picture is if it is just a few guns like less than 50 that the factory does not want to bother with

but yes it could effect smaller departments but last time I checked it wasn't podunk PDs and SOs that are causing problems it is places like LAPD and NYPD places that buy 100s or 1000s of firearms at a shot
Link Posted: 8/16/2007 5:45:59 PM EDT
Weinstein is virulent anti-gun. His anti-gun rulings are always overturned. Too bad a state like Ga doesn't indict Bloomberg for his straw purchases and send his butt to jail.
Link Posted: 8/16/2007 6:12:11 PM EDT
F#@% Bloomberg!

Commie weenbag socialist elite a$$hole!

He sucks.
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