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Posted: 1/29/2011 7:41:26 PM EDT
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/01/201112811331582261.html

US appears to shy away from talk about democracy in Middle East, despite historic anti-government rallies in ally Egypt.
Mark LeVine

It's incredible, really. The president of the United States can't bring himself to talk about democracy in the Middle East. He can dance around it, use euphemisms, throw out words like "freedom" and "tolerance" and "non-violent" and especially "reform," but he can't say the one word that really matters: democracy.
...
Instead of embracing the push for real democratic change, however, surface reforms that would preserve the system intact are all that's recommended. Instead of declaring loud and clear a support for a real democracy agenda, the president speaks only of "disrupting plots and securing our cities and skies" and "tak[ing] the fight to al-Qaeda and their allies", as he declared in his State of the Union address.

Obama doesn't seem to understand that the US doesn't need to "take the fight" to al-Qaeda, or even fire a single shot, to score its greatest victory in the "war on terror". Supporting real democratisation will do more to downgrade al-Qaeda's capabilities than any number of military attacks. He had better gain this understanding quickly because in the next hours or days the Egypt's revolution will likely face its moment of truth. And right behind Egypt are Yemen, Jordan, Algeria, and who knows what other countries, all looking to free themselves of governments that the US and its European allies have uncritically supported for decades.
...


No, not that Mark Levine, this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_LeVine
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 7:46:27 PM EDT
[#1]
Obama will screw this up like President Carter flubbed Iran.

Just watch.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 7:47:29 PM EDT
[#2]
Guy doesn't believe in democracy here, why should he care about it abroad?
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 7:47:35 PM EDT
[#3]
I guess I'm with him on that one. I don't want democracy for groups of people that will vote in fundamentalist Muslims. Any old tyrant that will keep them under control will do just fine.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 7:49:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Guy doesn't believe in democracy here, why should he care about it abroad?

I think Obama is going to need some aloe vera after that burn.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 7:51:40 PM EDT
[#5]
Actually, I hope Obama sits this whole fucking thing out. He could only make it worse IMO.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 7:59:26 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Actually, I hope Obama sits this whole fucking thing out. He could only make it worse IMO.


Im sure he is calculating the worst possible thing to do right now.

And will impliment it at the first opportunity.

That fuckstick couldnt "figure" his way out of a goddamn tic tac toe contest
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:00:51 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Guy doesn't believe in democracy here, why should he care about it abroad?


Exactly, well said, Sir.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:01:04 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Guy doesn't believe in democracy here, why should he care about it abroad?


Truth is spoken above.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:04:54 PM EDT
[#9]



Quoted:



Quoted:

Guy doesn't believe in democracy here, why should he care about it abroad?


I think Obama is going to need some aloe vera after that burn.
+1 Ouch





 
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:07:11 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
I guess I'm with him on that one. I don't want democracy for groups of people that will vote in fundamentalist Muslims. Any old tyrant that will keep them under control will do just fine.


Only one problem with that. These people for some reason also tend to get Visas and immigrate to free countries. Then they blame us for thier bullshit and piss in our cheerios. At least with a so called "elected republic" its one less thing they can blame us for.
I don't really see it helping us however, Turkey is a so called "republic" where people get the vote and they just vote in Islamist lite.
I do not consider Turkey to be helpful or an ally in any way shape or form, they are only a threat to Europes Culture.
Egypt and whomever becoming more "democratic" will help but not much.
Their problems are cultural and systemic.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:08:33 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Guy doesn't believe in democracy here, why should he care about it abroad?


Truth is spoken above.


also doesn't want the internet shut down there, why does he need a "kill switch" here?
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:12:08 PM EDT
[#12]
I've had Iraqis tell me that Arabs need strong iron fisted leaders in order to keep the fundamentalism and chaos from overtaking their country, and that is why they needed Saddam.



Sorry, but I am not really sure I want to see an elected government in Egypt, they will probably end up being just like Hamas.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:28:15 PM EDT
[#13]
I don't believe the Democracy is the answer for the Middle East.



Those people need strong men to keep them in line.



We should prop us Middle Eastern dictators to keep the jihadis in line and keep the oil flowing our way.



Fuck their freedom.



There! I said it, and I'm not taking it back!
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:33:21 PM EDT
[#14]
just like South Africa .... the middle east needs someone with a strong hand to rule them. when S.A. went crazy in the 80's all hell broke lose. and you see what it is like today, worse than ever.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:37:55 PM EDT
[#15]
Nearly all African nations can't handle democracy.  Hasn't this concept been proven time and time again?


Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:39:53 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
I don't believe the Democracy is the answer for the Middle East.

Those people need strong men to keep them in line.

We should prop us Middle Eastern dictators to keep the jihadis in line and keep the oil flowing our way.

Fuck their freedom.

There! I said it, and I'm not taking it back!


More right than you know.

Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:40:34 PM EDT
[#17]




Quoted:

I don't believe the Democracy is the answer for the Middle East.



Those people need strong men to keep them in line.



We should prop us Middle Eastern dictators to keep the jihadis in line and keep the oil flowing our way.



Fuck their freedom.



There! I said it, and I'm not taking it back!


Stop making sense, RIGHT NOW!


Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:41:35 PM EDT
[#18]
The problem with Democracy in the middle east is that it leads to what we have in the Palestinian territories and in Lebanon.




These lessons were learned after the Carter years, and it looks like Obama has done his homework.



A good place to start, for this assignment, is Jeanne Kirkpatrick's influential essay Dictatorships and Double Standards.




 
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:42:00 PM EDT
[#19]




Quoted:

The problem with Democracy in the middle east is that it leads to what we have in the Palestinian territories and in Lebanon.







and Iran
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:44:19 PM EDT
[#20]



Quoted:





Quoted:

The problem with Democracy in the middle east is that it leads to what we have in the Palestinian territories and in Lebanon.







and Iran


Indeed.



Iran is covered, if memory serves, in Kirkpatrick's Dictatorships and Double Standards.



 
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 8:46:22 PM EDT
[#21]
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 11:26:03 PM EDT
[#22]
How about Al Jazeera starts with the little Sheikhdom it's located in if it is so interested in democracy.

Those AJ people are the phoniest buzzards out there. If you have a lot of money you too can start your own network and throw stones at everyone else while living in a glass palace.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 2:40:57 AM EDT
[#23]
When I saw the title I thought the "D" word was dhimmitude.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 2:43:55 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
I guess I'm with him on that one. I don't want democracy for groups of people that will vote in fundamentalist Muslims. Any old tyrant that will keep them under control will do just fine.


That's a key point.  Western style "Democracy" depends upon the majority of people voting in a way that enhances a society.

Frankly, some people need to be ruled.

The main factor here is the role of the Muslim Brotherhood and their ability to use western style political rhetoric to bring down a sitting government.

This is looking a lot like Iran in 1979.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 4:23:03 AM EDT
[#25]
I dont think this democratic revolution is goping to work out the way hillary and the rest of the administration in washington think it will. There are too many hardline islamic groups just itching to gain control. I think when the smoke clears we are going to see another iran, and its going to be the fault of hillary openning her fucking trap calling for a the people to demand a move to democracy.  Our leaders need to focus on the problems here and quit worrying about obamas brothers over in the middle east
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 4:37:42 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Guy doesn't believe in democracy here, why should he care about it abroad?


Link Posted: 1/30/2011 4:39:41 AM EDT
[#27]
I've been very impressed with AJ's coverage.

Its pretty sad when the only Western service that can get anything is the BBC
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 4:40:11 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
The problem with Democracy in the middle east is that it leads to what we have in the Palestinian territories and in Lebanon.

These lessons were learned after the Carter years, and it looks like Obama has done his homework.

A good place to start, for this assignment, is Jeanne Kirkpatrick's influential essay Dictatorships and Double Standards.
 


What about the Bush and the attempt to  install a democracy in Iraq?
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 4:47:44 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The problem with Democracy in the middle east is that it leads to what we have in the Palestinian territories and in Lebanon.

These lessons were learned after the Carter years, and it looks like Obama has done his homework.

A good place to start, for this assignment, is Jeanne Kirkpatrick's influential essay Dictatorships and Double Standards.
 


What about the Bush and the attempt to  install a democracy in Iraq?


Isn't that why we have Obama now ?
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 4:57:04 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The problem with Democracy in the middle east is that it leads to what we have in the Palestinian territories and in Lebanon.

These lessons were learned after the Carter years, and it looks like Obama has done his homework.

A good place to start, for this assignment, is Jeanne Kirkpatrick's influential essay Dictatorships and Double Standards.
 


What about the Bush and the attempt to  install a democracy in Iraq?


Isn't that why we have Obama now ?


No, the Iraq war was a much lower priority on voters concerns compared to the economy and bailouts.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 5:03:22 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The problem with Democracy in the middle east is that it leads to what we have in the Palestinian territories and in Lebanon.

These lessons were learned after the Carter years, and it looks like Obama has done his homework.

A good place to start, for this assignment, is Jeanne Kirkpatrick's influential essay Dictatorships and Double Standards.
 


What about the Bush and the attempt to  install a democracy in Iraq?


"Democracy" was not the reason for going into Iraq.  Personally (per my comment above) I think that western style democracy is incompatible with a society based on Islam.

The way we practice "democracy" in the west has individual citizens asserting themselves according to their self interest at its center.  This concept is the opposite of submission.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 5:18:20 AM EDT
[#32]
If the suez closes Obama will be tickled. The price of oil will go up.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 5:28:58 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The problem with Democracy in the middle east is that it leads to what we have in the Palestinian territories and in Lebanon.

These lessons were learned after the Carter years, and it looks like Obama has done his homework.

A good place to start, for this assignment, is Jeanne Kirkpatrick's influential essay Dictatorships and Double Standards.
 


What about the Bush and the attempt to  install a democracy in Iraq?


"Democracy" was not the reason for going into Iraq.  Personally (per my comment above) I think that western style democracy is incompatible with a society based on Islam.

The way we practice "democracy" in the west has individual citizens asserting themselves according to their self interest at its center.  This concept is the opposite of submission.


Dead on - that's not just what you think, it's what they think.

Islam is as much a system of government as a religion - true Islamic faith requires rule according to the Q'ran; i.e., a Caliphate, a theocracy where the church and state are one and the same.

Nothing else is acceptable.  There is no "democracy," or "monarchy" or anything else in the Q'ran, only the Caliphate.  Any other form of government is apostate and un-Islamic by definition.

Not only is democracy not what they want, it's one of the things they're opposed to.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 5:47:52 AM EDT
[#34]
As is the norm, Obungler will show the world that he is in WAAAY over his head.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 11:10:05 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The problem with Democracy in the middle east is that it leads to what we have in the Palestinian territories and in Lebanon.

These lessons were learned after the Carter years, and it looks like Obama has done his homework.

A good place to start, for this assignment, is Jeanne Kirkpatrick's influential essay Dictatorships and Double Standards.
 


What about the Bush and the attempt to  install a democracy in Iraq?


"Democracy" was not the reason for going into Iraq.  Personally (per my comment above) I think that western style democracy is incompatible with a society based on Islam.

The way we practice "democracy" in the west has individual citizens asserting themselves according to their self interest at its center.  This concept is the opposite of submission.


Dead on - that's not just what you think, it's what they think.

Islam is as much a system of government as a religion - true Islamic faith requires rule according to the Q'ran; i.e., a Caliphate, a theocracy where the church and state are one and the same.

Nothing else is acceptable.  There is no "democracy," or "monarchy" or anything else in the Q'ran, only the Caliphate.  Any other form of government is apostate and un-Islamic by definition.

Not only is democracy not what they want, it's one of the things they're opposed to.


And the Muslim Brotherhood (and other such organizations) have learned how to use language that appeals to westerners while concealing their real agenda.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 12:20:02 PM EDT
[#36]



Quoted:



Quoted:

The problem with Democracy in the middle east is that it leads to what we have in the Palestinian territories and in Lebanon.



These lessons were learned after the Carter years, and it looks like Obama has done his homework.



A good place to start, for this assignment, is Jeanne Kirkpatrick's influential essay Dictatorships and Double Standards.

 




What about the Bush and the attempt to  install a democracy in Iraq?


An instance of not learning from the mistakes of the past, most likely.



Iraq is something of a special case, because it really was three countries crammed into one.



Democracy may work in one or more of the new nations formed as a result of the extremely bloody Iraqi Civil War, but it may also lead to theocracy in them all, something worse than they had before.



At any rate, the Iraq war is still ongoing, and now is not really the time for insightful historical analysis, so I reserve final judgment.
 
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 12:26:34 PM EDT
[#37]

Instead of trying to figure out how we can bring democracy there, we should be trying to figure out how to keep them from bringing Political Islam here (and Europe), IMO.

Link Posted: 1/30/2011 12:29:01 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Guy doesn't believe in democracy here, why should he care about it abroad?


This is now the first post in order to fulfill the first post rule.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 12:30:26 PM EDT
[#39]



Quoted:


Guy doesn't believe in democracy here, why should he care about it abroad?
You sure thats a horse?



Watch out, that kind of logic will only get you in trouble.

 
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 2:18:45 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Obama will screw this up like President Carter flubbed Iran.

Just watch.


Everyone knows when there is trouble in the Middle East the first thing the nation does is turn to the editor of the Harvard Law Review.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 2:27:14 PM EDT
[#41]
You guys know we live in a REPUBLIC, right? We do NOT live in ia democracy.



I absolutely hate it every time I hear someone says we live in a democracy. In a democracy 51% of the people get to tell the other 49% how to live. That's not what we have here.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 4:57:38 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
You guys know we live in a REPUBLIC, right? We do NOT live in ia democracy.



I absolutely hate it every time I hear someone says we live in a democracy. In a democracy 51% of the people get to tell the other 49% how to live. That's not what we have here.


Yes.  That's why I put "democracy" in quotes.

It's a commonly used term to describe a system in which people exercise their choices by casting votes.  I know that's simplistic, but it's adequate here.

As in western style "democracy."  That includes European political systems.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 5:05:01 PM EDT
[#43]
I'm always torn on this issue, but political beliefs that are absolutes are tricky. I guess there always have to be exceptions for self interest.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 5:16:58 PM EDT
[#44]



Quoted:


You guys know we live in a REPUBLIC, right? We do NOT live in ia democracy.







I absolutely hate it every time I hear someone says we live in a democracy. In a democracy 51% of the people get to tell the other 49% how to live. That's not what we have here.


I "absolutely hate it" when people don't understand that a republic like ours is a form of democracy.
 
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 5:32:02 PM EDT
[#45]

He dont like democracy here either...
Hell the dems freaked out over the tea party but tells their leadership to let the looters and rioters burn Egypt to the ground..
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 5:33:28 PM EDT
[#46]

you know if they vote  the winner will be some al shakira raghead priest that hates everyone but the followers of Mohammed.

Link Posted: 1/30/2011 5:35:43 PM EDT
[#47]

Obama falls flat on his face in 3 . . . 2 . . .
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 5:40:22 PM EDT
[#48]
I guess there's Democracy and then there's democracy.   After that it depends on what you want.
Link Posted: 1/30/2011 7:38:26 PM EDT
[#49]
You can always be certain that if 0 and Hitlery will always advocate the wrong course of action and back the wrong group.

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