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Posted: 12/30/2003 9:51:04 AM EDT
This is all just in theory...

When you're out on the highway and your frienly neighborhood LEO asks to search your vehicle, if you consent, then he can regardless of probable cause. If you don't, he needs other reasons to do so. (and then the side conversation that if he had the reason to do so...why ask? ...hehe).

Ok...but what about if you're driving to the airport to pick up somebody? You're not parking, you're not going inside, but you are driving through the loading zone. And the airport has set up a stop where they search cars if they choose. Does the driver automatically waive their rights against searches by entering the airport grounds? Was this something that was passed with the Patriot Act? Maybe depending on the 'security color of the day?'

I'm just curious on the legal side of things.

This is all over and above the various state CCW laws that some states have where a CCW holder must identify themselves to a LEO and follow the LEO's directions.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 9:55:57 AM EDT
Once your on Airport property, your ass is theirs if they want it.[;)]
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:03:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 10:06:17 AM EDT by mayday]
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: Once your on Airport property, your ass is theirs if they want it.[;)]
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I dont think so. Your RIGHT to privacy does not end the second you step onto private property. They can ask all they want. Just decline EVERY time. Even if you have nothing to hide, ALWAYS decline. The best they can do is ask you to leave the premisses. If they ask if they can bring a dog along....say the following: "AM I UNDER ARREST? NO...THEN I'M LEAVING". Sorry, the "detainment" rule doesnt fly too well in the courts either. I'm sure a bunch of LEO's will tell me otherwise...but guess what, the courts are the final judge and its been my experience in the legal field that a lot a LOE's make up the rules as they please when it comes to searches. They use pressure, while always "asking"...just say NO and leave. Unless you're under arrest that is.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:14:16 AM EDT
This happened to me a few months back. I went to pick up my Dad at the airport and parked in the short term parking garage. I always go up to the top level because it's always hard to find a spot on the bottom level. I get up to the stop and this wannabe rent a cop stops me and says they need to look in my car. I ask why as she is gawking through the glass to see what's in the car. She then said open your trunk. Again, I ask why. She said she wanted to see if I had any explosives or something like that in the trunk. I told her I had plenty of explosives - in fact I had 14 gallons of it. I told her I called it a gas tank. She didn't like that. She again demanded that I open my trunk. I said get a warrant. She said I have to look in your trunk. I said the only way you're looking in my trunk is to get a warrant, so take a hike. She said she could call a real cop and I could work it out with him. I didn't want that because my registration had expired by a couple days and I hadn't renewed it yet. I asked what my alternatives were. She said I could park on the first level, but not on the upper levels. Apparently, explosives don't work if the car's on the first level, right? I left her with a few choice words and drove down to the first level and found a spot. Hooray for the Patriot Act keeping us safe!!
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:19:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 10:20:46 AM EDT by mayday]
Once again your RIGHT to privacy, much like your RIGHT of speech, religion and representation DO NOT end when you step on private property [airport]. Decline all requests, demand a warrant or at least probable cause. Demand that a supervising officer show-up and loudly decline any requests. Feel free to leave unless you're under arrest. If you're being detained for speeding or other infration you cannot leave and MAY be detained. Always remember they can ask you to leave if you dont comply.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:23:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tax_monster: This happened to me a few months back. I went to pick up my Dad at the airport and parked in the short term parking garage. I always go up to the top level because it's always hard to find a spot on the bottom level. I get up to the stop and this wannabe rent a cop stops me and says they need to look in my car. I ask why as she is gawking through the glass to see what's in the car. She then said open your trunk. Again, I ask why. She said she wanted to see if I had any explosives or something like that in the trunk. I told her I had plenty of explosives - in fact I had 14 gallons of it. I told her I called it a gas tank. She didn't like that. She again demanded that I open my trunk. I said get a warrant. She said I have to look in your trunk. I said the only way you're looking in my trunk is to get a warrant, so take a hike. She said she could call a real cop and I could work it out with him. I didn't want that because my registration had expired by a couple days and I hadn't renewed it yet. I asked what my alternatives were. She said I could park on the first level, but not on the upper levels. Apparently, explosives don't work if the car's on the first level, right? I left her with a few choice words and drove down to the first level and found a spot. Hooray for the Patriot Act keeping us safe!!
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What?! They wanted you to park on the lower levels? Oh man.... wouldn't one think that a blast on the lower level would be more destructive then on the upper levels? I mean, take out the "base" and the whole thing comes down. If it's on top.... oh what do I know... I'm not a structural engineer or a "wannabe cop"....
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:31:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tax_monster: She said she could call a real cop and I could work it out with him. I didn't want that because my registration had expired by a couple days and I hadn't renewed it yet. I asked what my alternatives were. She said I could park on the first level, but not on the upper levels. Apparently, explosives don't work if the car's on the first level, right? I left her with a few choice words and drove down to the first level and found a spot. Hooray for the Patriot Act keeping us safe!!
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OK, I'll ask. What the @#@$# does the Patriot Act have to do with some idiot security drone insisting on looking in your trunk?
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:35:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kaliburz: What?! They wanted you to park on the lower levels? Oh man.... wouldn't one think that a blast on the lower level would be more destructive then on the upper levels?
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Maybe, but if you park on top and you have a .50...well I seen dis guy shoot down a helocopter with one-a-dose once...well...in a movie..BUT IT COULD HAPPEN! Scott
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:35:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:37:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lord_Grey_Boots:
Originally Posted By tax_monster: She said she could call a real cop and I could work it out with him. I didn't want that because my registration had expired by a couple days and I hadn't renewed it yet. I asked what my alternatives were. She said I could park on the first level, but not on the upper levels. Apparently, explosives don't work if the car's on the first level, right? I left her with a few choice words and drove down to the first level and found a spot. Hooray for the Patriot Act keeping us safe!!
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OK, I'll ask. What the @#@$# does the Patriot Act have to do with some idiot security drone insisting on looking in your trunk?
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Nothing. People just like to bitch about the Patriot Act, sometimes with good reason, sometimes without. The real problem with this is that "you can always leave" thing. Unfortunately, picking someone up at the airport is one of those things that, usually, you HAVE to do. It's not like it's an option. If I'm going to pick up my wife at the airport, and I have to let some rent-a-cop look in my trunk to do it, they're going to look in my trunk. Normally, it's "no thank you" to requests to search, but they've kind of got you over a barrel at the airport.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:43:01 AM EDT
One thing about me is that, I am always forthcoming when it comes to the police. I have nothing to hide from the police as I hope most of the esteemed people here do also. I understand that we have rights, and its easy to say "go get a warrant" if they ask to peek in your vehicles trunk. I know I can say that, but why build an ice wall between you and the police? My way of thinking is to make sure that I have fully satisfied the officers questions with diligent answers and a smile. Once they feel, you are not a threat and a good guy, the whole situation, what ever it may be, is deflated and everyone goes home happy. take for example, I was watching a program regarding racial profiling. This guy was driving in a neighborhood at night and was pulled over by the police. When questioned, his "attitude" towards the police made the situation entirely worse than it should have been. By anwsering the police back with questions just further angered them and made them feel he had something to hide. So in a few eye winks after he told them to "get a warrant", they had him cuffed and stuffed, held for an hour while they went through his car. Nothing found, no laws broken, they let him go. Why go through that? Just open your trunk and say "here ya go officer, can I help you with anything else"? Diffuse the confrontation right from the begining. Show respect and you will be treated with respect. Worked everytime with me.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:46:22 AM EDT
oh, this is good. i better watch. be sure to post who wins.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:49:42 AM EDT
Maybe I'm wrong - heaven knows I've been wrong a lot lately - but isn't airport grounds consider Federal property? not private property? Unless it's a private airport? Of course, that [b]shouldn't[/b] mean you give up your rights, but ...
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:51:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: One thing about me is that, I am always forthcoming when it comes to the police. I have nothing to hide from the police as I hope most of the esteemed people here do also. I understand that we have rights, and its easy to say "go get a warrant" if they ask to peek in your vehicles trunk. I know I can say that, but why build an ice wall between you and the police? My way of thinking is to make sure that I have fully satisfied the officers questions with diligent answers and a smile. Once they feel, you are not a threat and a good guy, the whole situation, what ever it may be, is deflated and everyone goes home happy. take for example, I was watching a program regarding racial profiling. This guy was driving in a neighborhood at night and was pulled over by the police. When questioned, his "attitude" towards the police made the situation entirely worse than it should have been. By anwsering the police back with questions just further angered them and made them feel he had something to hide. So in a few eye winks after he told them to "get a warrant", they had him cuffed and stuffed, held for an hour while they went through his car. Nothing found, no laws broken, they let him go. Why go through that? Just open your trunk and say "here ya go officer, can I help you with anything else"? Diffuse the confrontation right from the begining. Show respect and you will be treated with respect. Worked everytime with me.
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Will you be just as nice when they ask for your guns? I understand where you are coming from but it all sounds like bad news to me. Thre are morals we need to stand on, there are principals that need upholding, don't just roll over.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:51:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: One thing about me is that, I am always forthcoming when it comes to the police. I have nothing to hide from the police as I hope most of the esteemed people here do also. I understand that we have rights, and its easy to say "go get a warrant" if they ask to peek in your vehicles trunk. I know I can say that, but why build an ice wall between you and the police? My way of thinking is to make sure that I have fully satisfied the officers questions with diligent answers and a smile. Once they feel, you are not a threat and a good guy, the whole situation, what ever it may be, is deflated and everyone goes home happy. take for example, I was watching a program regarding racial profiling. This guy was driving in a neighborhood at night and was pulled over by the police. When questioned, his "attitude" towards the police made the situation entirely worse than it should have been. By anwsering the police back with questions just further angered them and made them feel he had something to hide. So in a few eye winks after he told them to "get a warrant", they had him cuffed and stuffed, held for an hour while they went through his car. Nothing found, no laws broken, they let him go. Why go through that? Just open your trunk and say "here ya go officer, can I help you with anything else"? Diffuse the confrontation right from the begining. Show respect and you will be treated with respect. Worked everytime with me.
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And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether the would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand.... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! ..................... Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 10:55:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: When questioned, his "attitude" towards the police made the situation entirely worse than it should have been. By anwsering the police back with questions just further angered them and made them feel he had something to hide. So in a few eye winks after he told them to "get a warrant", they had him cuffed and stuffed, held for an hour while they went through his car. Nothing found, no laws broken, they let him go. Why go through that?
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So it's ok in your book for police to do that sort of thing for no good reason other than they don't like you answers? Your paapperz, pleeez!
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:10:29 AM EDT
The best reason for saying "no" is that even the best policeman needs to be reminded that people have that right. In the airport situation, it's all pretty damned stupid. What are they going to do if (as is likely) a search of my car reveals an AR, 2 handguns, and 500 rds of ammunition (I like to be ready to hit the range at any opportunity)? None of it's illegal. None of it's illegal to possess on airport property (outside the terminal). So what do they do? "Why do you have these things?" "I'm an adult citizen, ma'am. Why do you have Twinkie crumbs on your shirt?"
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:13:51 AM EDT
I'm not a lawyer, but I believe a vehicle does not have the same type of USA constitutional protections as say for instance a building, because it has wheels. I think if you refuse to open your trunk, the authorities could very easily get a search warrant by waking up a judge in the middle of the night.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:14:19 AM EDT
if i recall here at the local airport they built a brand new zillion spot ramp next to the terminal cot milliosn but they cant use it because the new "rules" say you cant park within son many feet of the ramp...not sure what happenened with that one...
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:16:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mayday:
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: Once your on Airport property, your ass is theirs if they want it.[;)]
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I dont think so. Your RIGHT to privacy does not end the second you step onto private property.
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Shhhhh, don't tell the last few girls that came over my house that. I always require a strip search when they are on my property.[BD]
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:19:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By warlord: I'm not a lawyer, but I believe a vehicle does not have the same type of USA constitutional protections as say for instance a building, because it has wheels. I think if you refuse to open your trunk, the authorities could very easily get a search warrant by waking up a judge in the middle of the night.
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You're half right. Yes, vehicles do not have the same constitutional protections, but no, they don't even need a warrant. Vehicles fall under the "mobile conveyance" exception to the requirement that a search warrant be obtained. Basically, because the vehicle could be driven off while the warrant is written up and signed, the police need to have probable cause but not a warrant to search. And I think the "no guns at the airport" rule includes more than just the terminal. Probably varies by airport, but guns are probably prohibited anywhere on airport grounds unless they're packed to be shipped or checked in luggage. Again, it probably varies from airport to airport. What you could get away with in Texas would probably get you shot in Chicago.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:20:27 AM EDT
I went through a situtation like this recently. Not at the airport, but at a Federal building. It's a building that I go to a lot because I take care of some of our local law enforcement computers. There's a rent-a-cop there all the time. A few that are used to me just wave me through. But a couple are just jerks. They want to see my ID, and when I tell them I didn't bring it (I walk over there from my office, so I don't need my DL), they say things like "why don't you have your ID?" And then when I tell them this is America, and I don't need to "show my papers", they REALLY get pissy and hassle me. Then the officers I am going to see have to come down and help me out. The last time that happened I told the guys that if they wanted me to work on their PC's they would need to ensure that I don't get hassled every time I go over there. So now, they meet me at the locked back door and "sneak" me upstairs. They tell me the main asshat who gives me geif is a reserve cop (a WANNABE) with power issues. It's a good thing he's not driving a beat. I'm sure he'd be a major ass to all of his stops. I like good cops. I HATE bad cops and ones with attitudes...
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:22:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ProfessorEvil:
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: When questioned, his "attitude" towards the police made the situation entirely worse than it should have been. By anwsering the police back with questions just further angered them and made them feel he had something to hide. So in a few eye winks after he told them to "get a warrant", they had him cuffed and stuffed, held for an hour while they went through his car. Nothing found, no laws broken, they let him go. Why go through that?
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So it's ok in your book for police to do that sort of thing for no good reason other than they don't like you answers? Your paapperz, pleeez!
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Well, if they feel that you are avoiding their questions and responding in a non-forthcoming way, then that gives them reasonable doubt. Papers Please! [;)] I have nothing to hide, I am always willing to help a LEO. Attitude is everything and you'll be on your way a lot quicker than giving the officer a bit of lip, in my experiences at least. Help them out as best as possible and you'll be off the meat hook quick. [:)]
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:25:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 11:28:37 AM EDT by AR15fan]
Originally Posted By warlord: I'm not a lawyer, but I believe a vehicle does not have the same type of USA constitutional protections as say for instance a building, because it has wheels.
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Correct. Becuase of the vehicles mobile nature you have a lesser expectation of privacy in your car than in your home. You will never see a probable cause search of a home, you always get a warrant. But a street cop can generate enough PC to search a car pretty easy. They are also several other types of searches and non-searches that let cops get into a car. Such as search incident to custodial arrest (the entire passenger compartment, and all containers inside, but not the trunk), and inventory inspection incident to towing. There are three levels of police encounters. Consentual encounters, Detentions, & Arrest. The guy who said courts dont up hold detentions is wrong. A detention is lawfull when a police officer has Reasonable Suspicion of criminal activity. He may detain long enough to do a quick investigation of that activity, but if he takes to long it becomes an over detention and the court will toss that out. Reasonable Suspicion to detain is alot lower standard than Probable Cause to arrest, which is also a much lower standard than beyond a reasonable doubt to convict.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:27:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 11:29:42 AM EDT by Red_Label]
Originally Posted By eswanson: And I think the "no guns at the airport" rule includes more than just the terminal. Probably varies by airport, but guns are probably prohibited anywhere on airport grounds unless they're packed to be shipped or checked in luggage. Again, it probably varies from airport to airport. What you could get away with in Texas would probably get you shot in Chicago.
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Not sure about that. Granted I do live in Montana... but I openly admitted several times to my coworkers at the Federal International Airport where I also work on their computers that if my vehicle was searched they'd find a .44 mag pistol and ammo. They told me that the security people were mostly looking for like barrels and other large objects one could hide explosives in. Handguns and rifles are not what they are looking for (unless you had a BUNCH of them). They'd find at least one in many vehicles in my state. It's my state's law that I can carry a firearm in my vehicle, so as far as I am aware, I can keep it legally in my vehicle outside the terminal building also. Same thing if you are a private pilot and choose to carry a firearm in your own airplane. I used to carry my S&W pistol every time I used to fly my companie's Mooney airplane.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:31:53 AM EDT
YO...GETCHA PAHPCOHN HAYAH!! GETCHA PREHTZELS!!
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:32:55 AM EDT
I know this is all about the principles of freedom and all that, but if you know in advance you're going to an airport, then you know you might be searched. It's not like it's a surprise or anything, right? Why would anyone show up at an airport with something in the trunk of their car that they might not want the security drone (or the cops) to see? Seems to me you'd have to be pretty stupid.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:37:37 AM EDT
I ran into something similar at the post office. The rent a tubby wanted me to show id to enter the post office. ( it think because they have a federal bancruptcy court upstairs.) I said no thank you. They insisted. I said find your supervisor. Sup asked me to show id. I refused. They let me in- they couldn't tell me why I had to show id to buy stamps. asshats.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:44:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Red_Label: I went through a situtation like this recently. Not at the airport, but at a Federal building. It's a building that I go to a lot because I take care of some of our local law enforcement computers. There's a rent-a-cop there all the time. A few that are used to me just wave me through. But a couple are just jerks. They want to see my ID, and when I tell them I didn't bring it (I walk over there from my office, so I don't need my DL), they say things like "why don't you have your ID?" And then when I tell them this is America, and I don't need to "show my papers", they REALLY get pissy and hassle me. Then the officers I am going to see have to come down and help me out. The last time that happened I told the guys that if they wanted me to work on their PC's they would need to ensure that I don't get hassled every time I go over there. So now, they meet me at the locked back door and "sneak" me upstairs. They tell me the main asshat who gives me geif is a reserve cop (a WANNABE) with power issues. It's a good thing he's not driving a beat. I'm sure he'd be a major ass to all of his stops. I like good cops. I HATE bad cops and ones with attitudes...
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This is what im talking about...the most obnoxious LEO's that you meet (even the rent-a-cops) want a confrontation with you! Thats their personality. It is up to you to understand this and the situation by being a better man by not making little quips and comments but by out smarting them and dismantling their psyche. Make it impossible for them no matter how difficult and nasty they are, always remain in control and anwser their questions...most of them do it because it makes them feel that they are in control. Don't give them the opportunity. Be as pleasant as possible, and you will disarm them and they will layoff. It always worked for me. BTW, the guy who asked to check your ID when you entered the building is DOING HIS JOB. The other guys who wave you by, no matter even if they saw you a million times are screwing up. You work in a Federal Building with important information that HE is responsible to protect. So you can't be mad at him for doing what he's being paid for, but consider my tactic as an another approach. Being sneaked in the building from a back door is not how you want to present yourself, right?[;)]
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:48:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 11:51:04 AM EDT by eswanson]
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: This is what im talking about...the most obnoxious LEO's that you meet (even the rent-a-cops) want a confrontation with you! Thats their personality. It is up to you to understand this and the situation by being a better man by not making little quips and comments but by out smarting them and dismantling their psyche. Make it impossible for them no matter how difficult and nasty they are, always remain in control and anwser their questions...most of them do it because it makes them feel that they are in control. Don't give them the opportunity. Be as pleasant as possible, and [red]you will disarm them [/red]and they will layoff. It always worked for me. BTW, the guy who asked to check your ID when you entered the building is DOING HIS JOB. The other guys who wave you by, no matter even if they saw you a million times are screwing up. You work in a Federal Building with important information that HE is responsible to protect. So you can't be mad at him for doing what he's being paid for, but consider my tactic as an another approach. Being sneaked in the building from a back door is not how you want to present yourself, right?[;)]
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I think you got the part in red backwards. Look, I'm generally pro-LEO to a fault, but your attitude scares even me. There's a certain Pollyanna/head in the sand quality about your views. Edited to add, what if you got pulled over for speeding, and the cop asked to search your trunk, where you were carrying an AR with a bunch of loaded mags (perfectly legally). If the cop said "I'll have to seize this stuff, then you can be on your way", it sounds like you'd say "okie dokie, officer, as long as it's not a hassle!"
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:51:37 AM EDT
That's right, the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT can not make a law that would prevent you from exercising your rights. HOWEVER, the owner of the PRIVATE PROPERTY can do whatever the fuck they want to. Kind of like this board, if I were to break any of the forum posting rules....
Originally Posted By mayday: Once again your RIGHT to privacy, much like your RIGHT of speech, religion and representation DO NOT end when you step on private property [airport]. Decline all requests, demand a warrant or at least probable cause. Demand that a supervising officer show-up and loudly decline any requests. Feel free to leave unless you're under arrest. If you're being detained for speeding or other infration you cannot leave and MAY be detained. Always remember they can ask you to leave if you dont comply.
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Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:05:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 12:07:52 PM EDT by StariVojnik]
Originally Posted By eswanson:
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: This is what im talking about...the most obnoxious LEO's that you meet (even the rent-a-cops) want a confrontation with you! Thats their personality. It is up to you to understand this and the situation by being a better man by not making little quips and comments but by out smarting them and dismantling their psyche. Make it impossible for them no matter how difficult and nasty they are, always remain in control and anwser their questions...most of them do it because it makes them feel that they are in control. Don't give them the opportunity. Be as pleasant as possible, and [red]you will disarm them [/red]and they will layoff. It always worked for me. BTW, the guy who asked to check your ID when you entered the building is DOING HIS JOB. The other guys who wave you by, no matter even if they saw you a million times are screwing up. You work in a Federal Building with important information that HE is responsible to protect. So you can't be mad at him for doing what he's being paid for, but consider my tactic as an another approach. Being sneaked in the building from a back door is not how you want to present yourself, right?[;)]
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I think you got the part in red backwards. Look, I'm generally pro-LEO to a fault, but your attitude scares even me. There's a certain Pollyanna/head in the sand quality about your views. Edited to add, what if you got pulled over for speeding, and the cop asked to search your trunk, where you were carrying an AR with a bunch of loaded mags (perfectly legally). If the cop said "I'll have to seize this stuff, then you can be on your way", it sounds like you'd say "okie dokie, officer, as long as it's not a hassle!"
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HA! That happened to me on my way to the shooting range. I was speeding (20mph over the posted limit) because I wanted to get their early and was pulled over by a trooper. He asked for my DL and registration, asked me where I was going, and I told him point blank, He knew where I was heading, he asked me what I had, I told him a had a few rifles in the trunk and after he checked his computer he handed me back my DL/Reg and I was on my way. Police can't confiscate your hardware if your legit citizen and if they do, then you have a law suit.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:10:13 PM EDT
Then the officers I am going to see have to come down and help me out. The last time that happened I told the guys that if they wanted me to work on their PC's they would need to ensure that I don't get hassled every time I go over there. So now, they meet me at the locked back door and "sneak" me upstairs. They tell me the main asshat who gives me geif is a reserve cop (a WANNABE) with power issues. It's a good thing he's not driving a beat. I'm sure he'd be a major ass to all of his stops.
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that is how the 2 people in new york got into a shoot out in city hall. the council member let a guy come in without going through the metal detectors. then they got into a shoot out and killed each other. they didn't follow proper procedure and 2 people died because of it. as far as i know(your state may vary) but you can carry a firearm into the non-secure portion of an airport. you just can't carry past the security checkpoint. atleast that is how it is in kentucky, don't know about washington yet as i haven't researched it since moving here.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:10:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 12:13:09 PM EDT by DrMark]
Originally Posted By jhasz: Maybe I'm wrong - but isn't airport grounds consider Federal property? not private property? Unless it's a private airport?
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I've never heard of a typical airport being considered Federal property. I've carried in an airport several times, breaking no laws or regulations of which I'm aware. Besides, I don't know of any blanket prohibition (I've been wrong before...) against carrying on Federal property. 18 U.S.C. § 930 covers carrying in Federal facilities, which are defined as buildings. Maybe if someone knows of other Federal code addressing Federal property, they'll share with the group. Here's an interesting link some of you may have seen: [url]http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rtc-usps.html[/url] I happen to agree with the position taken in the linked article, but I don't care to be the test case. DrMark
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:17:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: [I have nothing to hide, I am always willing to help a LEO. Attitude is everything and you'll be on your way a lot quicker than giving the officer a bit of lip, in my experiences at least. Help them out as best as possible and you'll be off the meat hook quick. [:)]
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And you beleive the police are there to "help", right?? [noclue]
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:22:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 12:25:23 PM EDT by StariVojnik]
The police are there "To serve and protect" the community, that's why we pay our taxes. One should be proud to assist the police in any given capacity. The worst thing we can do is alienate our police force, its tough enough for them cause its such a thankless job.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:25:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: The police are there "To serve and protect" the community, that's why we pay our taxes. One should be proud to assist the police in any given capacity.
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Wow. To what degree do you expect to be protected?
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:30:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By warlord: I'm not a lawyer, but I believe a vehicle does not have the same type of USA constitutional protections as say for instance a building, because it has wheels.
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Correct. Becuase of the vehicles mobile nature you have a lesser expectation of privacy in your car than in your home. You will never see a probable cause search of a home, you always get a warrant. But a street cop can generate enough PC to search a car pretty easy. They are also several other types of searches and non-searches that let cops get into a car. Such as search incident to custodial arrest (the entire passenger compartment, and all containers inside, but not the trunk), and inventory inspection incident to towing. There are three levels of police encounters. Consentual encounters, Detentions, & Arrest. The guy who said courts dont up hold detentions is wrong. A detention is lawfull when a police officer has Reasonable Suspicion of criminal activity. He may detain long enough to do a quick investigation of that activity, but if he takes to long it becomes an over detention and the court will toss that out. Reasonable Suspicion to detain is alot lower standard than Probable Cause to arrest, which is also a much lower standard than beyond a reasonable doubt to convict.
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I'm the guy that said that "detentions" dont hold much weight in court and I say you're wrong. I'd love to defend this guy in court with you acting on dehalf of the prosecution. "Officer, please present to the court how a vehicle, like any other of the hundreds of vehicles in the airport, in your oppinion constituted a "REASONABLE SUSPICION OF CRIMINAL ACTIVITY?" Please I'm waiting. Please tell the court how a car, like any other vehicle, driven in a safe manner constitutes in your mind "reasonable suspicion of criminal activity". Good luck with that one....I can see the DA yelling at you in the back room now for making him look like a putz.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:33:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: The police are there "To serve and protect" the community, that's why we pay our taxes. One should be proud to assist the police in any given capacity.
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May your chains rest lightly upon you.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:36:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mayday: I'm the guy that said that "detentions" dont hold much weight in court and I say you're wrong. .
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Say a cop is checking the back alley of a closed business park at 3AM. He rolls up on a guy in dark clothes and a ski mask, carrying a pry bar. The guy has broke no laws, there is no PC to arrest. But there is plenty of RS to detain. In fact the officer would be derilect in his duty if he did not contact the man, establish his identity and find out why he is in the alley. One of my favorite sections of case law said "a detention was reasonable when police saw a man riding a bicycle, at night, while carrying a axe, even though no axe crimes had been reported."
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:43:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By mayday: I'm the guy that said that "detentions" dont hold much weight in court and I say you're wrong. .
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Say a cop is checking the back alley of a closed business park at 3AM. He rolls up on a guy in dark clothes and a ski mask, carrying a pry bar. The guy has broke no laws, there is no PC to arrest. But there is plenty of RS to detain. In fact the officer would be derilect in his duty if he did not contact the man, establish his identity and find out why he is in the alley. One of my favorite sections of case law said "a detention was reasonable when police saw a man riding a bicycle, at night, while carrying a axe, even though no axe crimes had been reported."
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Sorry buddy, but a guy in dark clothes and a ski mask, carrying a pry bar at 3AM is WAY, WAY different that a person in his car, driving through an airport along with thousands of other people and breaking no traffic laws. I dont care how you try to spin it; you will never be able to sway a judge into believing that this person posed a serious criminal risk. NO WAY and you know it.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:43:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Kooter: that is how the 2 people in new york got into a shoot out in city hall. the council member let a guy come in without going through the metal detectors. then they got into a shoot out and killed each other. they didn't follow proper procedure and 2 people died because of it.
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Not quite. They died (if both of them bought it; I don't recall) [i]in City Hall[/i] because somebody waved them past the magnetometer. [b]Nobody[/b] died because procedure wasn't followed. These gun-free buildings are the dumbest thing to come down the pike in a long time. I wonder if that lawyer in Ca feels better because he was shot outside the courthouse rather than inside. I know I wouldn't.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:44:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 4:07:14 AM EDT by StariVojnik]
Response to MAYNARD.....[b]Wow. To what degree do you expect to be protected?[/b] To what degree, good question....Obviously they cannot protect us like for example a personal armed body guard can, but, by their presence within the community, a general feeling of safety is felt, when they are patrolling the streets, when the cop is walking his/her beat. When they come into a store and have some coffee and talk shop with the store owners. Community outreach and PAL's programs are very much appreciated. Their very presence makes a community feel secure. I personally have seen my neighborhood(Lower East Side, NYC) go from a drug infested hellhole, to a place where children are playing in the parks, no more needles on the floor, no addicts harrasing people, no drug dealers on the corners, even the guys that smoked pot in front of the buildings are ALL GONE! THANK YOU NYPD for putting your feet up the asses of all the lowlifes. In that respect, doing what they do, they have [b]protected[/b] countless amounts of good people who by right deserve a safe community. "Preventive street medicine"
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:52:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 12:56:07 PM EDT by StariVojnik]
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By mayday: I'm the guy that said that "detentions" dont hold much weight in court and I say you're wrong. .
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Say a cop is checking the back alley of a closed business park at 3AM. He rolls up on a guy in dark clothes and a ski mask, carrying a pry bar. The guy has broke no laws, there is no PC to arrest. But there is plenty of RS to detain. In fact the officer would be derilect in his duty if he did not contact the man, establish his identity and find out why he is in the alley. One of my favorite sections of case law said "a detention was reasonable when police saw a man riding a bicycle, at night, while carrying a axe, even though no axe crimes had been reported."
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In the state of New York, wearing a ski mask is illegal that covers your face entirely. The cop has full authority to cuff & stuff. I don't know about other states. But in NY, thats a misdomeanor. [Addendum] Correct me if im wrong anyone, but carrying a crowbar or a padlock cutter is illegal in NYS.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:55:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: Response to MAYNARD.....[b]Wow. To what degree do you expect to be protected?[/b] To what degree, good question....Obviously they cannot protect us like for example a personal armed body guard can, but, by their presence within the community, a general feeling of safety is felt, when they are patrolling the streets, when the cop is walking his/her beat. When they come into a store and have some coffee and talk shop with the store owners. Community outreach and PAL's programs are very much appreciated. Their very presence makes a community feel secure. I personally have seen my neighborhood(Lower East Side, NYC) go from a drug infested hellhole, to a place where children are playing in the parks, no more needles on the floor, no addicts harrasing people, no drug dealers on the corners, even the guys that smoked pot in front of the buildings are ALL GONE! THANK YOU NYPD for putting your feet up the asses of all the lowlifes. In that respect, doing what they do, they have [b]protected[/b] countless amounts of good people who by right deserve a safe community.
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None of which is a good reason for people who've broken no law to roll over in response to intrusive requests by anybody. Except in very rare situations, the fact that a policeman would think it a good idea to detain or search [i]me[/i] is prima facie evidence that he's incompetent or a jackass. In any event, it is a salutary thing to remind anybody who exercises power in this country that they do so subject to law and the rights of the citizenry. It is not a good thing to go along with practices which presume that safety (along with the wide dissemination of ignorance) makes our rights a vestigial decoration, like an 18th Century military officer's gorget.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 1:14:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: Response to MAYNARD.....[b]Wow. To what degree do you expect to be protected?[/b] To what degree, good question....Obviously they cannot protect us like for example a personal armed body guard can, but, by their presence within the community, a general feeling of safety is felt, when they are patrolling the streets, when the cop is walking his/her beat. When they come into a store and have some coffee and talk shop with the store owners. Community outreach and PAL's programs are very much appreciated. Their very presence makes a community feel secure. I personally have seen my neighborhood(Lower East Side, NYC) go from a drug infested hellhole, to a place where children are playing in the parks, no more needles on the floor, no addicts harrasing people, no drug dealers on the corners, even the guys that smoked pot in front of the buildings are ALL GONE! THANK YOU NYPD for putting your feet up the asses of all the lowlifes. In that respect, doing what they do, they have [b]protected[/b] countless amounts of good people who by right deserve a safe community.
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None of which is a good reason for people who've broken no law to roll over in response to intrusive requests by anybody. Except in very rare situations, the fact that a policeman would think it a good idea to detain or search [i]me[/i] is prima facie evidence that he's incompetent or a jackass. In any event, it is a salutary thing to remind anybody who exercises power in this country that they do so subject to law and the rights of the citizenry. It is not a good thing to go along with practices which presume that safety (along with the wide dissemination of ignorance) makes our rights a vestigial decoration, like an 18th Century military officer's gorget.
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Im not advocating that we as good citizens give up our rights and rollover, and no LEO should intrude on us if no laws were broken either, but going back to the orignal post which was regarding a man parking his car at an airport parking lot, it was a legit request by security personel at the airport to take a look inside the trunk so that its safe for everyone. All the guy needed to do was say "sure, take a gander", and after all is fine and dandy, go about your business and faghetaboutit. He wouldn't have been troubled to move his car if he'd complied (but he gotten a better spot in the final outcome [:)]). [b]it is a salutary thing to remind anybody who exercises power in this country that they do so subject to law and the rights of the citizenry.[/b] Yes it is. But politely. [;)]
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 1:16:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DrMark: I happen to agree with [whichever principle], but I don't care to be the test case.
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I chopped the quote a little, but I think the idea embodies a good part of society today. Are there laws/practices that I think are wrong? Absolutely! But I've got a family to consider, bills to pay and I don't have $300,000 to take something to the Supreme Court let alone enough vacation days from work to wait in jail until my appeal goes through. For me, it's a dilemma...stand up for the principle and get put down as an individual (I suppose that's why it's called sacrifice), or walk the walk and talk the talk and my children pay later. An extended relative (cousin's ex-wife's uncle) disagreed with the income tax laws. I've read up on it myself and from what I can tell, it didn't pass the legalities for becoming an amendment. Anywho, relative-boy decides he ain't gonna pay....and they eventually locked him up for it for awhile.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 1:19:20 PM EDT
Obtusity toujours Obtusity I wanna I wanna I wanna go into a secure area but I don't want the JBT to check me or anybody else. Why can't they wave their magic wands and make it secure. Why do they have to look??? You're right they don't have to look and you don't have to be let into the secure area. Take your choice and live with your choice. What a bunch of crybabies.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 1:23:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By natez: One may carry weapons in the ticketing area and parking lots. When I go out of town, I always leave my weapon in the car, but I never leave home unarmed, including going to the airport.
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hehe...the case for owning a Makarov. :)
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 1:23:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: [b]'Hooray for the Patriot Act'[/b] What's the Patriot Act have to do with searches at airports? They were searching cars at airports long before the Patriot Act was passed and signed into law. Let's not make the Patriot Act into some sort of bogeyman on which to blame every government intrusion into our lives. Eric The(Reasonable)Hun[>]:)]
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Pre 9/11, at both LaGuardia and JFK airports, I had NEVER been asked to open my trunk. Same thing went for West Point, where my brother is at school. Post 9/11, all of the searching started occuring - immediately at WP, but only after the Pat Act did the airports start doing it. Since the Patriot Act was very quickly signed into law after 9/11, I guess you can't really say whether these searches are Pat Act related or 9/11 related. (Are the separable?!)
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 1:26:08 PM EDT
"No, you may not."
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