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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:45:53 AM EDT
This one subject came up from the Ann Coulter thread that i would like to hear more from Aimless and others. To try to prevent it from becoming a crazy fighting thread, just post what you think in response to the question. If you want to go off on a tangent, start a nother thread.

question: At what point does a "fetus/living mass that will become a human/zygote" become a human with all the rights that humans that have been born have? give reasons for your answer, and think about legal, biological, and other types of reasons besides philosophical/ religous.

Thank you.

Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:54:34 AM EDT
Dude, you like opening cans of worms con't you? Your gonna get everything from the "It's human/person from the get go." to "When it can survive outside the womb without artificial life support." to the moment of natural birth and everything in between. Then the whole religion crowd is gonna bust into the thread and argue the religious POV. Then there will be members attacking members, guys like me who don't really care and just make smart ass comments, and then a mod will lock it after a few warnings. So I'll be the first to post this: IBTL!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:56:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Valkyrie: Dude, you like opening cans of worms con't you? Your gonna get everything from the "It's human/person from the get go." to "When it can survive outside the womb without artificial life support." to the moment of natural birth and everything in between. Then the whole religion crowd is gonna bust into the thread and argue the religious POV. Then there will be members attacking members, guys like me who don't really care and just make smart ass comments, and then a mod will lock it after a few warnings. So I'll be the first to post this: IBTL!!!!!!!!!!
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You got that right! [:D] [devil]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:59:34 AM EDT
[img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=766&iGalleryUnq=32&iImageUnq=19650[/img]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:59:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 1:01:26 AM EDT by danonly]
Valkryie and Bill, go piss off. If you can't even answer the question, go troll some other thread. This thread is not about whether abortion is morally bankrupt/ legal in God's eyes, or if abortion docters should be shot. Just a simple question, when do you believe a fetus becomes a human? edit: osprey can piss off, also. : )
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 1:03:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 1:03:47 AM EDT by Valkyrie]
Originally Posted By danonly: Valkryie and Bill, go piss off. If you can't even answer the question, go troll some other thread. This thread is not about whether abortion is morally bankrupt/ legal in God's eyes, or if abortion docters should be shot. Just a simple question, when do you believe a fetus becomes a human? edit: osprey can piss off, also. : )
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Well there's the member attacking other members part and this post is my smart assed comment! Told ya it would happen!!
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 1:27:02 AM EDT
To complete a circle, you must have a straight line that touches a curve at only one point. Sorry my mind went off track. So I thought about it in a tangential form. As in. When does a caterpillar become a butterfly? Some say; when it emerges from a cocoon that it developes in. Some say; when it is developing in the cocoon. I don't know! So I'll keep watching on this one.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 1:28:51 AM EDT
Ok, I'll bite. From the instant of conception.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 1:59:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 2:00:59 AM EDT by nwatson99]
When every part of it is fully developed and functional. Oh yeah almost forgot here we go again with another bullshit thread.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 2:06:05 AM EDT
when brain waves are present about 6 weeks, I believe.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 2:15:48 AM EDT
You mean when the baby has brain waves or when the instruments we have today are able to detect them?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 2:30:28 AM EDT
every sperm is sacred .... before conception
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 2:43:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 2:55:17 AM EDT
Life begins when you can pay your own way through college. Till then, you're still not viable life....and subject to flushing if need be.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 3:22:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By danonly: This one subject came up from the Ann Coulter thread that i would like to hear more from Aimless and others. To try to prevent it from becoming a crazy fighting thread, just post what you think in response to the question. If you want to go off on a tangent, start a nother thread. question: At what point does a "fetus/living mass that will become a human/zygote" become a human with all the rights that humans that have been born have? give reasons for your answer, and think about legal, biological, and other types of reasons besides philosophical/ religous. Thank you.
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[:K]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 3:29:13 AM EDT
lol..the irony is that author didnt want this getting outa hand but was the first to start the insults. lol.
danonly 12/11/2003 4:59:56 AM Valkryie and Bill, go piss off. If you can't even answer the question, go troll some other thread. This thread is not about whether abortion is morally bankrupt/ legal in God's eyes, or if abortion docters should be shot. Just a simple question, when do you believe a fetus becomes a human? edit: osprey can piss off, also. : )
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oh yeah this is a bullshit debate that will lead to no good. Hello [wave] welcome to the GUN board. lol. IBTL.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 3:30:06 AM EDT
When it comes out of the birth canal and draws it's first breath.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 4:46:20 AM EDT
My somewhat tounge in cheek response is this, it depends on it's parents social status and their abilities and wants. If the parents are unable to support it, it is not a human life up until natural birth. If the parents can support it and provide for all of it's needs, then it is a human life whenever the parents decide it is. This way, poor people can be convinced of the societal benefits of an abortion right up until natural birth. People who can afford the child can decide at any time to keep or abort it. I truley do not understand why this is an issue for anyone but the woman who may be pregnant. I especially do not understand why any man would think they had *any* sort of "right" to decide for a woman whether she keeps or aborts a fetus. Of course, if the men who are so willing to exercise absolute control over another sentinent being like that would be willing to place their nuts on the line, I might go along with it. Any guy who wants to force a woman to carry a fetus, in which she is unwilling to do so, ought to be willing to have his testicles surgically removed. It proves his seriousness, it incapacitates him from procreating any more life and places him on par with the women with whom he somehow has decided that he can control. Somehow, I don't think we will see any of the crazed-anti men so willing to give up their teticles to save those poor murdered babies. Do you?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 4:52:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By nwatson99: When every part of it is fully developed and functional. Oh yeah almost forgot here we go again with another bullshit thread.
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Handicapped people aren't human? This explains my ex-girlfriend [;)]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:02:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By nwatson99: When every part of it is fully developed and functional. Oh yeah almost forgot here we go again with another bullshit thread.
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Handicapped people aren't human? This explains my ex-girlfriend [;)]
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Have you been dating comatose women again DF?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:03:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:04:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By nwatson99: When every part of it is fully developed and functional. Oh yeah almost forgot here we go again with another bullshit thread.
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Handicapped people aren't human? This explains my ex-girlfriend [;)]
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Have you been dating comatose women again DF?
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No sir. I just did it once. I don't need to do it again [BD]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:07:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By nwatson99: When every part of it is fully developed and functional. Oh yeah almost forgot here we go again with another bullshit thread.
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Handicapped people aren't human? This explains my ex-girlfriend [;)]
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Have you been dating comatose women again DF?
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No sir. I just did it once. I don't need to do it again [BD]
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Just once that you are admitting to. What about all those one noght stands as the hospital orderly?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:10:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By nwatson99: When every part of it is fully developed and functional. Oh yeah almost forgot here we go again with another bullshit thread.
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Handicapped people aren't human? This explains my ex-girlfriend [;)]
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Have you been dating comatose women again DF?
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No sir. I just did it once. I don't need to do it again [BD]
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Just once that you are admitting to. What about all those one noght stands as the hospital orderly?
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Uhhh...how did you know about that? [%|]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:15:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from hielo -
I truley do not understand why this is an issue for anyone but the woman who may be pregnant.
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Wow, what an admission!
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How So Eric? Why should you have a say over another persons body? I understand that you have a religous motivation to beleive that you are correct in your assertations, but try to divorce yourself from the religous viewpoint (I know, I know, you will say you are unable to, no problem), why should one person be able to dictate to another person the medical procedures that they have performed on their own body?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:16:09 AM EDT
Because the egg and sperm both come from a human "IT" is "Human" even before the egg and sperm come together. Now if you're asking "When should "IT" be given the Rights that people in the real world enjoy?" then you could get 100 different answers depending on who you talk to. By Jewish Law a child isn't "alive" until it draws it's first breath of air. Adam, the first man, created by God, wasn't "alive" until God breathed the breath of life into him. Another question that you could ask these "Modern Christians" that believe in the "imortality of the soul" is "At what point does this "soul" enter into a person?" If we are truly imortal(which I don't believe, only God is imortal.)then our "soul" has had to have exsisted from all eternity past. Where is it before we're born and when does it come into our body?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:16:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from hielo -
I truley do not understand why this is an issue for anyone but the woman who may be pregnant.
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Wow, what an admission!
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How So Eric? Why should you have a say over another persons body? I understand that you have a religous motivation to beleive that you are correct in your assertations, but try to divorce yourself from the religous viewpoint (I know, I know, you will say you are unable to, no problem), why should one person be able to dictate to another person the medical procedures that they have performed on their own body?
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I thought you were going to try to rebut ETH. You just reinforced his point. [;)]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:20:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from hielo -
I truley do not understand why this is an issue for anyone but the woman who may be pregnant.
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Wow, what an admission!
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How So Eric? Why should you have a say over another persons body? I understand that you have a religous motivation to beleive that you are correct in your assertations, but try to divorce yourself from the religous viewpoint (I know, I know, you will say you are unable to, no problem), why should one person be able to dictate to another person the medical procedures that they have performed on their own body?
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I thought you were going to try to rebut ETH. You just reinforced his point. [;)]
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But I don't concede your posutlate that a fetus is a human life. (Nor does our current "society"). Put your nuts on the line fellas. If you are willing to have your testicles surgically removed to stop *one* abortion, I will be happy to donate enough money to raise each child for the first 10 years of their life. How about it? How serious are you?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:21:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 5:23:31 AM EDT by norman74]
This thread is the very definition of trolling. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot or a liar. You're not going to get anyone to divorce their opinion on abortion from their opinion on when a fetus becomes a human. Then you'll also get the xtian crowd that can't keep from thumping their bible in hypocritical fashion over and over.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:29:27 AM EDT
Hey has anyone seen Last Samurai yet ? How was it. I hear its ok except for Tom Cruise. Kinda like that "Paycheck" movie John Wo directing a story that sounds like a dream movie for me, til you add Ben Aflek. For those who don't know PKD his novels and short stories were turned into Blade Runner, Total Recal, and Minority Report (another movies that would of been better without Tom Cruise). Considered a master of the "Cyberpunk" genre
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:29:38 AM EDT
I've heard the word "fetus" is Latin for "baby". Any truth to that?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:30:46 AM EDT
One thing is for sure, as far as US law is concerned, it will never be considered a person until it is actually born. Why, you might ask? Very simple, the IRS. If it is considered a person after 3 months in the womb, six months or whatever, then it will have to be considered a deduction at that point.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:31:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from hielo -
I truley do not understand why this is an issue for anyone but the woman who may be pregnant.
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Wow, what an admission!
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How So Eric? Why should you have a say over another persons body? I understand that you have a religous motivation to beleive that you are correct in your assertations, but try to divorce yourself from the religous viewpoint (I know, I know, you will say you are unable to, no problem), why should one person be able to dictate to another person the medical procedures that they have performed on their own body?
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I thought you were going to try to rebut ETH. You just reinforced his point. [;)]
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But I don't concede your posutlate that a fetus is a human life. (Nor does our current "society"). Put your nuts on the line fellas. If you are willing to have your testicles surgically removed to stop *one* abortion, I will be happy to donate enough money to raise each child for the first 10 years of their life. How about it? How serious are you?
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It's not a postulate. It is a biological fact.[:)]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:31:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rainman: I've heard the word "fetus" is Latin for "baby". Any truth to that?
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After the zygote stage, a developing human from usually three months after conception to birth.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:32:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 5:33:52 AM EDT by hielo]
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from hielo -
I truley do not understand why this is an issue for anyone but the woman who may be pregnant.
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Wow, what an admission!
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Then I gather you can say with certitude when a fetus becomes a human life, please do. How So Eric? Why should you have a say over another persons body? I understand that you have a religous motivation to beleive that you are correct in your assertations, but try to divorce yourself from the religous viewpoint (I know, I know, you will say you are unable to, no problem), why should one person be able to dictate to another person the medical procedures that they have performed on their own body?
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I thought you were going to try to rebut ETH. You just reinforced his point. [;)]
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But I don't concede your posutlate that a fetus is a human life. (Nor does our current "society"). Put your nuts on the line fellas. If you are willing to have your testicles surgically removed to stop *one* abortion, I will be happy to donate enough money to raise each child for the first 10 years of their life. How about it? How serious are you?
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It's not a postulate. It is a biological fact.[:)]
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Then you can say with certaintude when a fetus becomes an actual baby, please do.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:33:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By rainman: I've heard the word "fetus" is Latin for "baby". Any truth to that?
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After the zygote stage, a developing human from usually three months after conception to birth.
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Quoted for posterity. Do you know why? [;D]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:33:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:34:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By rainman: I've heard the word "fetus" is Latin for "baby". Any truth to that?
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After the zygote stage, a developing human from usually three months after conception to birth.
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Quoted for posterity. Do you know why? [;D]
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Enlighten me, oh great comatose porker .
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:35:22 AM EDT
Holy crap with the abortion threads. Hasn't anyone learned. Real original. IBTL
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:36:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from hielo -
How So Eric? Why should you have a say over another persons body?
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'I' may not, but society may have its say over another person's body. Think incarceration, capital punishment, just to mention the really big instances when society says to an individual...'this is what happens to you when....' And what of my example to you of the woman with the healthy 35-week 'fetus' that is only a week or so away from delivery? Did you give an answer to that? Why not? Don't tell me that you think that society has no rights respecting that woman's body even if the 'fetus' is dangling from the birth canal!
I understand that you have a religous motivation to beleive that you are correct in your assertations, but try to divorce yourself from the religous viewpoint
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This is one area where I do not insist that my personal religious views must dictate human society. If it were, then no abortion would be permissible, not even in cases of rape and incest. So save your anti-religious screed for the moment and pay attention.
why should one person be able to dictate to another person the medical procedures that they have performed on their own body?
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We are a society with the right to dictate norms of behavior and to reward and punish folks for living within or without those norms, respectively. I can see that you must support 'gay marriage' for what right can society have in preventing two adult males the right to engage in such an endeavor. I counter by saying that society has every right to define its institutions and that marriage can be defined by a society in a way that prevents same-sex marriages. Easy enough? Eric The(Simple)Hun[>]:)]
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As a dismisssal to yuor diatribe, I will only point out that abortion is perfectly legal in our "society", so it is time you best be getting over it. Wouldn't you say?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:37:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By rainman: I've heard the word "fetus" is Latin for "baby". Any truth to that?
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After the zygote stage, a [red]developing human[/red] from usually three months after conception to birth.
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Quoted for posterity. Do you know why? [;D]
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Enlighten me, oh great comatose porker .
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Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:38:38 AM EDT
As to gay marriage , I do beleive that what two deviants do in the privacy of their bedroom is best left up to them. Of course if you want to regulate womens bodies, I gather a little regulation of deviants bodies would not fall outside of the ken of possibility, would it? What ever happened to the old adage of minding one's own business?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:39:08 AM EDT
OK, I will jump in, give mu "opinion" and leave. [b]Aimless and others: At what point does a "fetus" become a human? [/b] A fetus is a human. a fertilized egg is a human. it's too bad we don't have a Star Treck transporter that will dematerialize a unwanted fetus and rematerialize it into a synthetic womb.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:39:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By rainman: I've heard the word "fetus" is Latin for "baby". Any truth to that?
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After the zygote stage, a [red]developing human[/red] from usually three months after conception to birth.
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Quoted for posterity. Do you know why? [;D]
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Enlighten me, oh great comatose porker .
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Holy shit DF, I can't beleive I feel for that trap, you got me! So you are saying that a fertilized egg is a human also?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:43:39 AM EDT
The biological definition of "Life" is "The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth... and response to stimuli."1 Since the unborn baby has a metabolism, grows, and can react to stimuli, it by definition has life. Does a fertilized egg fit that definition?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:46:43 AM EDT
At conception.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:47:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:51:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: The biological definition of "Life" is "The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth... and response to stimuli."1 Since the unborn baby has a metabolism, grows, and can react to stimuli, it by definition has life. Does a fertilized egg fit that definition?
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I don't know. I do know that many cancers do. Are the thumpers going to start coming down on chemotherapy now? . So we can safely say that you are not in the "At conception" crowd. That would then just leave you to explain at what point a fetus is a human being? What of it?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:53:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from hielo -
As a dismisssal to yuor diatribe, I will only point out that abortion is perfectly legal in our "society", so it is time you best be getting over it. Wouldn't you say?
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Nope! [:D] I wouldn't say that at all. American society keeps putting limits on this 'fundamental right' almost as soon as the Roe decision was announced by the US Supreme Court! Society's dictates in the matter were overridden by a US Supreme Court and its decisions to the contrary! So when does a 'fundamental right' have to be created by a majority of the really-messed-up US Supreme Court, in order to be 'perfectly legal'? It may be 'the law of the land', but it is no more worthy of respect than the Dred Scott decision in 1857, or the one yesterday, by the US Supreme Court. Eric The(ChampionOfTheFetidFolks)Hun[>]:)]
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Shame! And that coming from someone sworn to uphold the law of the land. Do you ignore other laws that you find repugnant? Do you try to use that as a defense for your clients? On second thought, never mind. I woudl rather not know.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:58:01 AM EDT
Whats most interesting is that all of the people so far who have decided that they know best for women about their medical care, have yet to decide to take me up on my offer, come on Eric, Come on DF, are your testicles really so valuable? Are they worth more than that little baby that is being vacuumed right now?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 6:02:59 AM EDT
Hielo, your example is foolish. Since NY has a pretty good crime rate, maybe you should get a vasectemy to avoid your future children being murdered? As for jewish law, there is a lot of debate on the subject. I believe that now the ZOG is debating whether a fetus is viable before or after graduation from medical school.
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