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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 8/8/2002 11:43:22 AM EST
OK. Perhaps someone out there who knows a bit more than I can summarize the history of Afganistan. Now, from what I understand, there were some Afgani guerrilla fighters and they held off the entire Soviet army for like 15 years or something. No matter what the Russians did, they just couldn't whoop the Afgans. What was the cause of this conflict? I don't think the Russians were trying to forcefully annex Afganistan, so what was it all about? Furthermore, once the United States went into Afganistan, we cleaned house in a matter of weeks! So how come the US was able to kick their asses so fast, but the Russians were tied up for years? Curious, -Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 11:54:15 AM EST
For all intents and purposes the Russians were attempting to make Afganistan a puppet state. As us in Viet Nam they soon found themselves in a guerilla war. Th Afgans also received some nice hardware from us on the side. In our case we didnt go in there trying to take over the country. We got the Afgan rebels to fight the ground war. Had all Afgans fought us, unless we learned from the Russian mistakes, we would have had as a hard of time as they did in conquering Afganistan.
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 12:03:16 PM EST
Atencio probably knows more than me but I thought they were trying to add it to the fold, plus I think Russia wanted a win. Brechnev I believe was in charge at the time, although he wasn't mentaly (has some brain disease I believe)...near the end of his life he was pretty much a puppet and told to sign this and that and one of the things he ok'd was the Afghan war...his mil guys were pretty much in charge. Brechnev was mad because they were losing so badly and saying things like "you got me into this!" This is all from memory from a documenty I watched on the History Channel a while back...not even sure if Brechnev is the right guy that was there at the time...so my facts are probably off here and there. And yeah the difference between Russia attacking and the US attacking is a big one...for one we didn't want the country so the Muslim countries didn't feel the need to help Afghan out and we pretty much gave hardware to them to fight the Russians.
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 12:03:48 PM EST
Because they are red commie pukes and we are the mighty Americans. [;)] [marines]
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 2:07:13 PM EST
Hey don't tell anyone, but the russians are in Afghanistan to stay. You really didn't believe that the northern alliance were freedom loving did you? Financed by the ruskies, trained by the ruskies, equipped by the ruskies, you become ruskies whore. This is the single biggest blunder of the Bush administration's war on terrorism. Bush's big mistake was he let Conny Rice make decisions, Rice is smart and informed, she has a degree in russian studies, but she is an academic and you do not want academic's making important decisions. Academics are supposed to be used for there information and insight. But history has shown you do not let them steer the boat. The russians have wanted a sea port on the Indian Ocean for hundreds of years, looks like they are a little closer thanks to the "war on terrorism".
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 3:22:17 PM EST
there are a bunch of reasons the Red Army never totaly won in Afghanistan. the russians had a fucking super slow learning curve when it came to fighting the Mujahideen. the Soviets habitualy moved supply convoys around making the same mistakes. ambush points in Afganistan are historicaly in the same places. the soviets failed to clear known ambush sites, and have artillary plots for known ambush points. the Muj favorite mode of attack was to ambush. usually small arms, a few rpg's a couple of LMG's and maybe a mine or 2. usually the soviets would send BMP's ahead and scout the route. but they rarely would dismount and check known ambush locations. the convoy would then be called ahead, thinking the route was clear and be ambushed. the soviets rarely would dismount infantry to try to assault through and break up the ambush, instead they would hide and take cover and call for air/helibourne support. by the time air would arrive the Muj would boogy out and melt into the countryside. the soviets continualy did the same thing making the same mistakes, and never learning. by the end of the war the soviets finaly got smart and started using air assault and more spetnatz ops, but alas it was to late
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 3:36:22 PM EST
Yes, I believe its been a dream for centuries for the Russians to have an ice free port.Can't remember the details,but when something went wrong with the Ruskies puppet, commie regime already in Afganistan they stepped in to do the fighting and assert themselves. Like everyone else said ,we won cause we motivated the natives to do the heavy fighting and dying. Why the Souuth Vietnamese couldn't grasp this concept I'll never understand.
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 3:43:26 PM EST
the soviets went to war against almost all of afghanistan. we went to war against a few thousand ragheads...many of them not even from afghanistan. we had the cooperation of a large portion of the afghani population. most of those folks were as sick of the talibs as we are. the resolve to fight the soviets was very strong. but, as in vietnam, the military "victory" as opposed to the political victory were two different things. the soviets, like our own forces in vietnam, did NOT suffer a crushing military defeat...they just grew weary of sacrificing men and materiel to afghanistan. after the soviet union bled itself white by financing the vietnam conflict, it literally bankrupted itself during the invasion of afghanistan. chechnya continues to teach the soviets that same, hard lesson.
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 3:47:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/8/2002 3:59:29 PM EST by CAMPYBOB]
[url]http://www.sabawoon.com/afghanpedia/SovietsinAfghanistan.shtm[/url] [url]http://www-cgsc.army.mil/csi/research/ComWar/comwarbaumann.asp[/url] [url]http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6453/afghanistan.html[/url]
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 4:06:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/8/2002 4:08:28 PM EST by liberty86]
Originally Posted By N_Viejo: OK. Perhaps someone out there who knows a bit more than I can summarize the history of Afganistan. Now, from what I understand, there were some Afgani guerrilla fighters and they held off the entire Soviet army for like 15 years or something.
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Not "some". It was damn near the whole friggin country.
No matter what the Russians did, they just couldn't whoop the Afgans. What was the cause of this conflict? I don't think the Russians were trying to forcefully annex Afganistan, so what was it all about?
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Seaports,Gas pipelines, same as us..
Furthermore, once the United States went into Afganistan, we cleaned house in a matter of weeks! So how come the US was able to kick their asses so fast, but the Russians were tied up for years? Curious, -Nick Viejo.
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We haven't "kicked their ass's". Prolly most folks were tired of the Taliban, and are just sitting back waiting on developements......It ain't over over there.....
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 5:08:28 PM EST
The Russians are pussies. In 10 years they lost 15,000 men, and 3 percent of their helo crewmen, and they left in tears. In 10 years in Nam, we lost 58,000 men, and 30 percent of our helo crewmen were casualties, and then we left in tears.
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 5:09:00 PM EST
The Russians are pussies. In 10 years they lost 15,000 men, and 3 percent of their helo crewmen, and they left in tears. In 10 years in Nam, we lost 58,000 men, and 30 percent of our helo crewmen were casualties, and then we left in tears. At lest thats the figures I was taught.
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 6:34:45 PM EST
i can believe the ruskies wanted to rape AFG for its natural resources but its over 250 miles from AFG to the sea, how does that help them get an ice free port? also, how did Al qaeda get so damn big so fast and no one noticed? the asnwer is we did notice but it was kept quiet. in 1996 the CIA set up a task force of more than 50 people to track al qaeda. the gov't by proxy through the media gave us all the impression that bin ladens organisation was a well organized yet small band of extremists with a whole lot of money. now all the sudden they are a giagantic worldwide conspiracy like Cobra from the old GI Joe comic books. im calling "bullshit" if you guys knew the troop strength on the ground in AFG you guys would crap your pants. it might be open source so look it up but its about 10 times more people on the ground then you think. ill say this. its nearly half the troop strength of Desert storm. and back then iraq had the 4th largest military on the planet. so does al qaeda justify almost 100k ????? somethings coming gentleman. something big! thus endeth my rant
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 7:06:37 PM EST
Take a look at a map.With the boarders of the old Soviet Union and control of Afganistan,they have Iran virtually surrounded.I don't think it would take too much pressuure to persuade the Iranians into a Russian corridor too the sea.Or they could just take what they need.I believe that the thought at the time was that they would not stop with Afganistan.
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 7:37:50 PM EST
Afghans overthrew the king in 1973, which paved the way for a Communist takeover years later. The Russians invaded when that pro-Soviet Communist government was overthrown by another, anti-Soviet Communist government. The Russians pulled another Hungary and Czechoslovakia, to prop up a unpopular pro-Moscow regime to maintain their "buffer zones" around the Soviet Union and to maintain the illusions that Communists can never be overthrown. This was the Russians first Vietnam (the second and third being Chechyna). They fought the war like it was happening in Eastern Europe, although Afghanistan was nothing like Europe. Tanks and APCs were too slow to climb mountaintops and their troops would rarely dismount to engage the enemy - mujahadeen would just fire RPGs at the APC and kill everybody inside. Add this to an army with moral as low as the current Iraqi army, and you have a recipe for disaster. The Soviet Army was terrible. They would never have won a war against the US. The current Russian army is even worse. The Russians were brutal. If a few of their soldiers were killed by the Afghan Mujaheddin, they would would massacre an entire villiage of civillians in retaliation. People who wouldn't normally harm anybody would kill Russian troops whenever they could. The Russians are pulling this same shit in Chechnya, then wonder why they are so hated there. Russian soldiers still die there every day, sometimes a dozen or more a day to Chechen guerillas. One thing we need to learn from the Russians however is that when they left, they had build up a 200,000 man-strong Afghan Army, troops, tanks, aircraft and all. That's exactly what we need to do, PRONTO. Karzai needs the power of the gun to start making a difference.
Originally Posted By cgwahl: Brechnev I believe was in charge at the time, although he wasn't mentaly (has some brain disease I believe)...near the end of his life he was pretty much a puppet and told to sign this and that and one of the things he ok'd was the Afghan war...his mil guys were pretty much in charge. Brechnev was mad because they were losing so badly and saying things like "you got me into this!" This is all from memory from a documenty I watched on the History Channel a while back...not even sure if Brechnev is the right guy that was there at the time...so my facts are probably off here and there.
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Yeah, Breznhev started the war, Andropov and Chernenko (who combined lasted only 2.5 years) continued it and Gorbechev ended it.
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 8:12:51 PM EST
Ok, skimming the replies, most people have it wrong. Here's how it went: In the 70's a communist regime took hold of Afghanistan. Keeping with marxism/leninism, they wanted an atheist state, which meant suppreassing Islam. Afghans didn't have a big problem with communism until the suppression of Islam began. But they started resisting after that. The communist government in Kabul appealed to the USSR for military assistance. The USSR was very reluctant, but finally committed troops in 1979. Russians tried to apply mechanized infantry tactics in Afghanistan with very poor results. Afghans with Enfield .303's could engage Russians from 1000 meters, while Ak's had about 300 meter max range. Russians changed tactics in the mid 80's and Gorbachev stepped up the war effort. The Russians started depending on Spetnaz special forces and helicopters, plus using informants and guerrilla tactics to fight the muhajadeen. They had enormous success, and many of the muhajadeen fled to safe areas in Pakistan. But the Russians didn't figure on this: an aggressive American president who hated the Soviet Union and actually took proactive steps to thwart and hurt the USSR wherever he could across the globe. He gave the islamic rebels advanced Stinger SAMs to counter the Soviets' air superiority, and the Afghans put them to good use. As losses mounted, the USSR realized Afghanistan wasn't worth the losses incurred by it, and left. They were only there to help the flailing Afghan government, they had no real interests there. The Russians would have won, if it wasn't for Reagan and the Stinger missiles.
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 11:58:00 PM EST
The US has won in Afghanistan???? All of our troops are home???? No Americans troops are in harms way???? No ambushes or terror attacks against our troops???? It isn't over till it's over, and IT IS NOT OVER!!!
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 1:40:51 AM EST
Read the "Bear Went Over the Mountain" it explains the reasons the USSR went there, a little more complicated than most have mentioned. How they didn't take the war serious, why the eventually pulled out and allot of their lessons for wins and losses.
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 8:44:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2002 8:59:08 AM EST by Atencio]
Originally Posted By raven: Ok, skimming the replies, most people have it wrong. Here's how it went: In the 70's a communist regime took hold of Afghanistan. Keeping with marxism/leninism, they wanted an atheist state, which meant suppreassing Islam. Afghans didn't have a big problem with communism until the suppression of Islam began. But they started resisting after that. The communist government in Kabul appealed to the USSR for military assistance. The USSR was very reluctant, but finally committed troops in 1979. Russians tried to apply mechanized infantry tactics in Afghanistan with very poor results. Afghans with Enfield .303's could engage Russians from 1000 meters, while Ak's had about 300 meter max range. Russians changed tactics in the mid 80's and Gorbachev stepped up the war effort. The Russians started depending on Spetnaz special forces and helicopters, plus using informants and guerrilla tactics to fight the muhajadeen. They had enormous success, and many of the muhajadeen fled to safe areas in Pakistan. But the Russians didn't figure on this: an aggressive American president who hated the Soviet Union and actually took proactive steps to thwart and hurt the USSR wherever he could across the globe. He gave the islamic rebels advanced Stinger SAMs to counter the Soviets' air superiority, and the Afghans put them to good use. As losses mounted, the USSR realized Afghanistan wasn't worth the losses incurred by it, and left. They were only there to help the flailing Afghan government, they had no real interests there. The Russians would have won, if it wasn't for Reagan and the Stinger missiles.
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The Russians had great interest in Afghanistan for years starting in 1919. The 1930's the two participated in extensive bilateral trade contracts. Russia built must of the road network including the Salang tunnel. Military advisors had been there since the 1950's. Differences compared to us in Viet Nam: they never sent over as many troops peaking at about 100,000 over an area vastly larger than Viet Nam where we had up to 500,000 troops at one time. They never had enough troops present to effectively control the country. The Russians main enemy in Afghanistan was not the Afghans but their own poor health habits. 73% of the overall force contacted disease. Over 100,000 contacted infectious hepatitis and 31,000 contacted typhoid fever. Only 15,000 troops died or were MIA in 10 years of fighting which aint bad numbers. Though the stingers tilted the balance in the end I do not think the Russians would have won anyway. The troops had poor clothing for the area, restrictive, uncomfortable and camo'ed in northern european colors. Boots were noisey and not made for mountain climbing. When possible Russian soldiers would wear tennis shoes. Their sleeping bags were not waterproof. The belief of massed firepower meant that dismounted soldiers were carrying a ton of equipment and could not keep up with the Afghans. Overall morale was low for both enlisted and officers. In the end to win the Russians would have had to employ a lot of light infantry and better sanitations to succeed.
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 9:40:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2002 2:41:03 PM EST by prk]
I saw an article that went like this: The Russians have lots of oil. With a port in [s]Afghanistan[/s] Pakistan, they could build a nice pipeline or two to transport this stuff and ship over the world. By the way, this would undercut the Arabs. Hmmm. [edited to fix my geographical goof]
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 10:03:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2002 10:05:38 AM EST by raven]
Originally Posted By prk: I saw an article that went like this: The Russians have lots of oil. With a port in Afghanistan, they could build a nice pipeline or two to transport this stuff and ship over the world. By the way, this would undercut the Arabs. Hmmm.
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The USSR did depend on oil and gas to prop up its inefficient economy, but they already had an export market with Western Europe which worked nicely. During the 80's they were building a huge gas pipeline from Siberia to Europe (which Reagan did his best to impede). The situation in Afghanistan for the USSR was kind of like how it was with Italy and Germany in WWII. The Italians invaded North Africa, Albania and Greece, got in over their heads, and asked for help from the Germans, who ended up doing most of the fighting. Same thing in Afghanistan. The new communist government tried to stamp out Islam, got in over its head when the Afghans started a guerrilla war to fight back, and pleaded to Moscow to bail them out. Moscow was very reluctant to help. It took years before they even took any action. Russia didn't have any real strategic interest in Afghanistan. As for the pipeline, Afghanistan's land-locked if you haven't noticed. They would have to move into either Pakistan or Iran with its islamonutcase government. Either move would have elicited a strong US response, especially with Reagan as president.
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 10:41:09 AM EST
The USSR (Russians) have always cultivated satellite or puppet states on their borders. There was a relatively Moscow-friendly government in Afghanistan through the 70s. If you look at when the USSR invaded it sure wasn't long after Iran seized our hostages. I think that it was inconceivable to the Ruskies that we wouldn't invade Iran and stomp Khomeni out which would have given the USA tremendous influence/power base in the region. IMHO the USSR went into Afghanistan to counter the invasion of Iran that they expected from us. When we didn't go into Iran they stayed because they were scared of Iran fomenting a Muslim revolution on another border state (Iran also shared a border with the USSR). The mujahadin were mightily aided by the USA via Pakistan and the Russians were never quite as tough/capable as our intel frequently reported. We would be having trouble in Afghanistan too if there was a superpower arming/advising the Taliban with the latest advanced weaponry.
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 11:46:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2002 11:55:19 AM EST by Kroagnon]
Originally Posted By prk: I saw an article that went like this: The Russians have lots of oil. With a port in Afghanistan, they could build a nice pipeline or two to transport this stuff and ship over the world. By the way, this would undercut the Arabs. Hmmm.
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Yes, exactly; this has not gone unnoticed by the US. We are taking over where the Russians left off - expect a Krygyzstan-Afghanistan-Pakistan oil pipeline in the next few years.
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 2:48:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By prk: I saw an article that went like this: The Russians have lots of oil. With a port in Afghanistan, they could build a nice pipeline or two to transport this stuff and ship over the world. By the way, this would undercut the Arabs. Hmmm.
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...As for the pipeline, Afghanistan's land-locked if you haven't noticed.
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[:I] Problem is, I DID notice it a few months back, while posting about invasion and resupply and promptly forgot it. Slap me with a fish!! Thanks for the correction. To shift the topic a bit, a while back, the Chechens rebels were sorta getting cheered as the underdogs. This may partly be due to residual ill will at Russia. Now I gotta wonder if I should stop looking for "good guys".
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