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Posted: 12/12/2012 10:06:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2012 7:07:41 AM EDT by FordGuy]
GUYS - I note this was posted 2 days before the Ct. school shooting - a very sad coincidence but a reminder that this stuff will keep going on and we have to have a plan to deal with it.

I left active duty last year. I can tell you at that time, there was MUCH confusion over what the best approach was for Army personnel, and then when certain individuals injected liability and PR concerns, the plans went to hell. I was also a combatives Level 4 instructor so we came up with our own scenarios and trained accordingly.

So I would ask that you suggest basic principles, basic practices that would optomize a regular guy's chance of saving your family and yourself in the event you encountered this same mall scenario, to the best of what we factually know about it. And can I also suggust only two variations of the scenario, one where you can see the shooter and one where you can only hear his fire. The difference in these two scenarios is huge and will require a different approach with some aspects. Some "bullet points" will be obvious. Don't be obviously obvious by saying the answer is obvious. (refrain from the "run like a mutterfuker" drivel please.) Post your suggested best practice and then read what others have written.

Thanks for any genuine input. And I hope to boil this down later into a short list of basic principles the average guy can fall back on in a tight situation.
********************************************­**********************
If you cannot see the shooter, only hear his shots
* Create space and distance
* encourage others to move away from the gunfire
* Exit the building
* Move to cover, call 911 and SALUTE report

If you can see the shooter
* seek cover and concealment
* if shooter moves away, you move away
* if shooter moves closer, shoot him quickly, accurately. If unarmed, fight violently with any available object.

For both scenarios, if you cannot exit the area and find yourself enclosed in a room, remain quiet and guard the room: plan to engage in the fatal funnel if the shooter enters. Identify your target carefully- law enforcement may also enter. If defending an enclosed area where you have no gun and are alone, hide. If defending an enclosed area where your family is inside, and you have no gun, engage with physical force as he enters the fatal funnel but before he can select targets.


the above photo is me training. I am obviously having a good time but this was awesome realistic training in a course I managed a couple of years.

In this one, I am asking aggressive questions in the split seconds the shooter is selecting targets, this allows my buddy behind the wall to engage him from behind.

Link Posted: 12/12/2012 10:13:51 AM EDT
In the mall scenario, if I can just hear fire, then I'm quickly and calmly going the other way to safety. You'll notice all those stores have rear areas for moving stock and such. Those get utilized. Deal with threats as I'm moving to safety (hopefully not).

If I can see the threat and take a shot, eh, maybe. (1) is the default.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 10:15:17 AM EDT
Best practice? Get you and yours out of there ASAP. Engage if you see him on the way out.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 10:19:34 AM EDT
If your not a LEO and you cannot readily engage the shooter then you need to evacuate yourself and your loved ones. Sounds crappy, but if you choose to inteject yourself into the problem, you run the very real risk of being mistaken FOR the shooter by responding police. The old days of staging and then doing simultanious enteries are over. Police will enter the facility to find and neutralize the shooter as soon as they arrive and get paired up. If you cannot escape the mall, building, structure etc, then find a bathroom or closet, put your loved ones inside of it and guard it. Let the shooter come to you.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 10:22:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2012 10:22:48 AM EDT by bjkb1f]
Put as much distance and "stuff" between you and the shooter as possible while trying to not draw attention to yourself.

Stuff - walls, clothes racks, liberals, etc. - cover and concealment.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 10:24:13 AM EDT
All I can really contribute is the fact that the phrase "best practice" may someday turn me into an active shooter.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 10:25:23 AM EDT
1. Head for the Lane Bryant lingere department
2. Hide your loved ones here!
3. Wait for LEO to neutralize the situation.

Why you may ask, becuase no one ever goes to the lingere department in the big gal store!
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 10:27:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
All I can really contribute is the fact that the phrase "best practice" may someday turn me into an active shooter.


LOL, sorry buddy. I used it because it works.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 10:28:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 10:30:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2012 10:30:43 AM EDT by Spade]
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
All I can really contribute is the fact that the phrase "best practice" may someday turn me into an active shooter.


How will your warfighters know how to prioritize their automatically generated action items in case of such a situation if they don't have previously approved and rightsized best practices that they can leverage?

ETA: Also, diversity.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 10:59:22 AM EDT
I stopped carrying a pocket pistol after Aurora, accepting a Glock 26 as the bare minimum I'm willing to have in my hand in such a scenario. One thing I've been debating is a blow out kit. On one hand, it's clearly something desirable to have in such circumstances. On the other, it's a pain to carry unless you're carrying a pack / man purse, etc. I have a "Mumbai" bag in my truck, but if I make it to my truck, it's unlikely I'll hang around.
Thoughts? Possible solutions?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:03:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
I stopped carrying a pocket pistol after Aurora, accepting a Glock 26 as the bare minimum I'm willing to have in my hand in such a scenario. One thing I've been debating is a blow out kit. On one hand, it's clearly something desirable to have in such circumstances. On the other, it's a pain to carry unless you're carrying a pack / man purse, etc. I have a "Mumbai" bag in my truck, but if I make it to my truck, it's unlikely I'll hang around.
Thoughts? Possible solutions?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Your purpose then is the ability to treat a gun shot wound, correct?
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:10:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
I stopped carrying a pocket pistol after Aurora, accepting a Glock 26 as the bare minimum I'm willing to have in my hand in such a scenario. One thing I've been debating is a blow out kit. On one hand, it's clearly something desirable to have in such circumstances. On the other, it's a pain to carry unless you're carrying a pack / man purse, etc. I have a "Mumbai" bag in my truck, but if I make it to my truck, it's unlikely I'll hang around.
Thoughts? Possible solutions?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Yeah I would be curious if there is any useful "pocket" first aid/gunshot kit.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:14:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rumpleforeskin:
1. Head for the Lane Bryant lingere department
2. Hide your loved ones here!
3. Wait for LEO to neutralize the situation.

Why you may ask, becuase no one ever goes to the lingere department in the big gal store!


Big girls need lovin' too! Different strokes for different folks though.

Serious side-
I like the OPs thoughts. Keep it simple. I am not a bad ass and usually have my family with me. I am not going after the bad guy if I can get everyone away safetly.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:14:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2012 3:33:54 PM EDT by SgtKiwi]
If an active shooter incident occurs, as soon as it is safe to do so, dial 911 and supply as many details as possible including number of persons involved, description of shooter(s), weapons displayed, known injured, etc.

a. Evacuate

(1) If there is an escape path, attempt to evacuate.

(2) Evacuate whether others agree to or not.

(3) Leave your belongings behind.

(4) Help others escape if possible.

(5) Keep your hands visible

(6) Prevent others from entering the area if possible.

(7) Contact police as soon as it is safe to do so.

b. Hide Out. If you can’t get out safely, you need to find a place to hide.

(1) Lock and/or blockade the door. Use copiers, furniture, shredders, and other available equipment.

(2) If you have a cellular telephone, silence it.

(3) Hide behind large objects which offer more protection.

(4) Remain very quiet.

c. Take Action. As a last resort, only if your life is at immediate risk, whether alone or together as a group, fight.

(1) Attempt to incapacitate the shooter.

(2) Act with extremely violent physical aggression.

(3) Use improvised weapons such as fire extinguishers, chairs, scissors, etc.

(4) Be committed to your actions until the threat is eliminated.

d. When Law Enforcement arrives. Initial responders are not there to assist in evacuation or to aid the wounded. They are there to stop the shooter(s).

(1) Remain calm and follow instructions.

(2) Keep hands visible and fingers spread (raise hands if possible).

(3) Avoid pointing or yelling.

(4) Know that help for the injured is on the way.

(5) Prevent others from entering the area if possible
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:15:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By davisac:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
I stopped carrying a pocket pistol after Aurora, accepting a Glock 26 as the bare minimum I'm willing to have in my hand in such a scenario. One thing I've been debating is a blow out kit. On one hand, it's clearly something desirable to have in such circumstances. On the other, it's a pain to carry unless you're carrying a pack / man purse, etc. I have a "Mumbai" bag in my truck, but if I make it to my truck, it's unlikely I'll hang around.
Thoughts? Possible solutions?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Yeah I would be curious if there is any useful "pocket" first aid/gunshot kit.


someone help me out here - would it not just be your standard pressure dressing? I realize there are fancy appliances out there now, but when the blood is spurting, anything will do if it will stop the flow for the moment.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:17:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FordGuy:
Originally Posted By davisac:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
I stopped carrying a pocket pistol after Aurora, accepting a Glock 26 as the bare minimum I'm willing to have in my hand in such a scenario. One thing I've been debating is a blow out kit. On one hand, it's clearly something desirable to have in such circumstances. On the other, it's a pain to carry unless you're carrying a pack / man purse, etc. I have a "Mumbai" bag in my truck, but if I make it to my truck, it's unlikely I'll hang around.
Thoughts? Possible solutions?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Yeah I would be curious if there is any useful "pocket" first aid/gunshot kit.


someone help me out here - would it not just be your standard pressure dressing? I realize there are fancy appliances out there now, but when the blood is spurting, anything will do if it will stop the flow for the moment.


Yeah. I have a small kit I keep in my truck that has quik clot and some gauze and gloves, I'd hardly call it a pocket kit though.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:18:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FordGuy:
Originally Posted By davisac:
Yeah I would be curious if there is any useful "pocket" first aid/gunshot kit.


someone help me out here - would it not just be your standard pressure dressing? I realize there are fancy appliances out there now, but when the blood is spurting, anything will do if it will stop the flow for the moment.


OK. I don't know anything but am just starting to get interested in being more prepared so I was curious if you needed specialized stuff or just common. Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:20:08 AM EDT
The only time I would engage the shooter is if the shooter is between me and my family or if the shooter is between us and safety.

Otherwise, my priority is to get myself and my family OUT of the area BEFORE the police have a chance to respond. You do NOT want to be there, you do NOT want to be a witness. You want to get to your car and get out before the police seal you in.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:24:40 AM EDT
The distillation in the OP sounds good generally and is what I would in public.

I will say that after we had a guy wander around UT shooting an AK recently, I thought about it and decided I would stay put if something similar happens. My lab is basically a bunker and well-stocked with improvised weapons. If I leave, there's a chance I'll bump into the shooter. If I stay and the shooter wants to come in, he'd have to get through a locked solid oak door and I'd be waiting on the other side with a squirt bottle of 49% HF and a three foot iron rod.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:27:53 AM EDT
Do you remove your pistol from holster (even if leaving)?

I'd like to be at low ready but also don't want LEO et al to think I was the BG and get a new hole in my body.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:29:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
All I can really contribute is the fact that the phrase "best practice" may someday turn me into an active shooter.


How will your warfighters know how to prioritize their automatically generated action items in case of such a situation if they don't have previously approved and rightsized best practices that they can leverage?

ETA: Also, diversity.


You forgot paradigm.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:31:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
All I can really contribute is the fact that the phrase "best practice" may someday turn me into an active shooter.


How will your warfighters know how to prioritize their automatically generated action items in case of such a situation if they don't have previously approved and rightsized best practices that they can leverage?

ETA: Also, diversity.


You forgot paradigm.


It's been shifted.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:34:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2012 11:36:41 AM EDT by WantsToBelieve]
Originally Posted By ToroAzul:
Do you remove your pistol from holster (even if leaving)?

I'd like to be at low ready but also don't want LEO et al to think I was the BG and get a new hole in my body.


Here is some of what I teach in classes. On your question - Think it through...

The police will have been called.

They will be looking for a man with a gun. If you expect them to have an accurate description, try listening in to a police scanner sometime. It takes a good deal of time for that information to be ACCURATELY transmitted.

If you are going around with your gun at low ready, guess what? YOU ARE A MAN WITH A GUN.

If someone else - like an off-duty police officer or another Concealed Firearm Permit holder - is doing the same thing, guess what? HE IS A MAN WITH A GUN.

If you run into each other, it could end VERY badly for one or both of you.

If you run into a responding police officer, it could end very badly for you. Even if you are not shot on the spot, you will most likely end up handcuffed and in the back of a police car until the whole
thing is sorted out. Expect that to take hours or longer.

Now, let’s look at the police response.

The police will be setup at the entrances.

They will expect the possibility that the gunman (or gunmen) may disengage and pose as fleeing victims.
In the case of Trolley Square there is video of families being told to keep their hands up and being taken to sorting areas where they were fully checked out. They stood in the cold for hours, kids too. There are videos showing the same from the Clackamas Town Center.

When they are frisking people, you may not have the time to announce your permit before someone yells “gun!” and you find yourself in a bad situation.

It could get even worse if a scared individual sees your firearm print through your clothing or your shirt rides up in all of the running with your hands up. What happens when the soccer mom next to you sees your gun? She won’t yell “gun” like a cop. She’ll yell “It’s him!!!!!!!!” LE will assume that she's a witness and has just positively ID'd the shooter. Do you want that to happen to you?

Remember - Discretion is the better part of valor. Get yourself and your family out of there BEFORE the police arrive.

Some other thoughts are posted here.

Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:36:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2012 11:37:12 AM EDT by DonKey153]
Originally Posted By woob44:
Originally Posted By FordGuy:
Originally Posted By davisac:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
I stopped carrying a pocket pistol after Aurora, accepting a Glock 26 as the bare minimum I'm willing to have in my hand in such a scenario. One thing I've been debating is a blow out kit. On one hand, it's clearly something desirable to have in such circumstances. On the other, it's a pain to carry unless you're carrying a pack / man purse, etc. I have a "Mumbai" bag in my truck, but if I make it to my truck, it's unlikely I'll hang around.
Thoughts? Possible solutions?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Yeah I would be curious if there is any useful "pocket" first aid/gunshot kit.


someone help me out here - would it not just be your standard pressure dressing? I realize there are fancy appliances out there now, but when the blood is spurting, anything will do if it will stop the flow for the moment.


Yeah. I have a small kit I keep in my truck that has quik clot and some gauze and gloves, I'd hardly call it a pocket kit though.


I have something similar with shears, gauze, QC gauze, coflex nl, keychain led light for leo linkup, and tourniquet. Not pocket size, but very small.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008FEOQTO/ref=oh_details_o06_s00_i00
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:37:28 AM EDT

It's never fireworks.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:37:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ToroAzul:
Do you remove your pistol from holster (even if leaving)?

I'd like to be at low ready but also don't want LEO et al to think I was the BG and get a new hole in my body.


I'd say OH HELL NO. Pistol only comes out when the decision to stop the threat has been made. that implies I can see the threat and recognize him as a threat. low ready, running, = the height of stupidity.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:40:27 AM EDT
I do my shopping online. Maybe get to a mall once or twice a year.

I would be un-assing the area with my weapon concealed doing the exact opposite of that old cavalry dictum, "Ride to the sound of the guns!"

The fewer people in the mall when the police get there the better.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 11:48:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2012 11:49:19 AM EDT by Spade]
Originally Posted By WantsToBelieve:

If someone else - like an off-duty police officer or another Concealed Firearm Permit holder - is doing the same thing, guess what? HE IS A MAN WITH A GUN.



Yeah. More than one story has been posted here about an off duty or plainclothes cop getting shot by other cops.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 1:09:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FordGuy:
Originally Posted By davisac:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
I stopped carrying a pocket pistol after Aurora, accepting a Glock 26 as the bare minimum I'm willing to have in my hand in such a scenario. One thing I've been debating is a blow out kit. On one hand, it's clearly something desirable to have in such circumstances. On the other, it's a pain to carry unless you're carrying a pack / man purse, etc. I have a "Mumbai" bag in my truck, but if I make it to my truck, it's unlikely I'll hang around.
Thoughts? Possible solutions?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Yeah I would be curious if there is any useful "pocket" first aid/gunshot kit.


someone help me out here - would it not just be your standard pressure dressing? I realize there are fancy appliances out there now, but when the blood is spurting, anything will do if it will stop the flow for the moment.


Ford, please tell me if I start to derail your thread by going too medical vs tactics.

For background, I'm a paramedic, wilderness EMT and tactical medic. I've provided and taught emergency care with everything from improvised dressings to a full ALS ambulance.

Dealing with penetrating trauma requires the ability to put direct pressure on a hemorrhage, tourniquet a limb if direct pressure either doesn't work or isn't viable due to the situation, seal any torso wound with a dressing which won't allow air to pass through (an occlusive dressing) and control an airway. Some may add chest decompression and wound packing. Takes a modicum of training, especially decompression. The basic stuff is what usually saves lives.

A pressure dressing can be fashioned out of a T-shirt, towel or whatever, but securing such in place is a pain when compared to a commercial dressing. I've fallen in love with the Olaes dressing in large part because it has velcro strips every 6 inches on the bandage, so if you start to wrap it and slip or let go, you don't lose your pressure. Improv dressings take far longer to apply and generally aren't as effective, unless you can dedicate someone to holding it in place. They also suck when you’re doing self-aid, especially with a single arm.

We've all been taught how to fashion a tourniquet out of a belt, strap, the guts of your fallen enemy, yadda yadda. Unfortunately, improvised tourniquets don't work for squat (I can dig up the study when I get to my home computer) are slow to apply and are a pain to secure. Compare that to a CAT or SOF-T, and you'll never want to depend on a fan belt from the ford escort in the parking lot again. Again, this is especially true in self-aid.

Any hole between the belly button and the neck gets covered with an occlusive dressing, a dressing that won’t let air pass through. ( Simplified explanation – your lungs stick to your chest wall. When you breathe, you expand your chest. Your lungs are pulled along for the ride, negative pressure is caused, and your lungs fill with sweet, beautiful air. Poking a hole in the chest can make a hole in the lung, and air can then collect between the lung and chest wall, collapsing the lung. This can be worsened when you take a breath and air is pulled in that hole as well as through your airway.) Sticking a piece of plastic over that hole mitigates the problem. Most first aid classes teach students to use a piece of plastic wrapper and tape it over the hole. They even teach students to tape only three sides, making it a flutter valve that’ll let air out but not in. Turns out the whole valve thing doesn’t really work, but that’s the theory. Problem is, tape doesn’t stick to bloody, sweaty skin well, and I don’t want to be trying to tape the cellophane off a cigarette pack over a hole in my chest while hiding behind the sunglass hut. Commercial occlusive dressings are ‘peel and stick’, and the later generation ones like the HALO will stick to anything.

Airway control; In an unconscious person, the soft tissues in the mouth and upper throat can close off their airway. The head-tilt / chin lift or jaw thrust taught in CPR classes works well to address that, but it takes dedicating a person to that task. Having a NPA or OPA, a rubber tube or plastic J shaped piece that you can slip up their nose or in their mouth solves that problem. The nasal version can be used on someone with a gag reflex, so it’s the preferred choice in blow out kits.

Needle decompression of a pneumothorax isn’t really appropriate for this thread.

Wound packing requires gauze, or, preferably the Quik-Clot version, combat gauze. I guess you could try it with the scarf off the hot chick at the sunglass hut, but Kling or combat gauze makes it easier.

So, in a full BOK, I carry an Olaes dressing, A H&H flat pack dressing (not quite as nice as the Olaes, but takes up much less room. May well be dealing with two holes), a SOF-T tourniquet, a pack of HALO chest seals (fuckers would stick to Rosie O’Donnell’s snatch at an Easter buffet line), a roll of combat gauze, a nasal airway with lube and two thoracostomy needles. I also carry a benchmade rescue hook to cut clothing and such, a chunk of peel-off backing duct tape, two pairs of exam gloves and a sharpie. Great kit in a range bag or such, a bit large for EDC. Another member here, FMD, put together a minimalist BOK with a military dressing, some tape & one of the TK4 elastic tourniquets. It’s a bit larger than a pack of cigarettes, and might be a much better alternative. Still a bit much for jeans and a t-shirt when I’m already carrying a G26, spare mag, flashlight, knife & other pocket litter. You certainly can improvise, (having a knife will help do so), but it’s definitely sub-optimal.

I’m seriously considering going to a sling-pack man purse. It’d be nice to carry my kindle / cell phone charger, kindle, etc. If so, I’ll include a BOK. Can’t see carrying it through the mall though. So, I’m not sure what the best answer is. Maybe some peel off duct tape, a TK4 & the knife I always have.

Link Posted: 12/12/2012 1:14:46 PM EDT
OK, excuse my stupidity - but what's a SALUTE report?
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 1:17:21 PM EDT
Pretend to be a mannequin, don't move! Shooters go for movement.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 1:17:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By topknot:
OK, excuse my stupidity - but what's a SALUTE report?


It's a spot report, using S-A-L-U-T-E as a format mnemonic. Size, Activity, Location, Unit, Time, Equipment.

Memory devices tend to morph into the names for the thing itself, similar to how "Apply immediate action" has morphed into "Apply SPORTS."
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 1:22:16 PM EDT
Disclaimer: I am an expert at nothing, sans occasional unbridled idiocy. With that said, I believe it's just a matter of time before we see secondary shooters waiting at exits. I would recommend exercising caution when nearing "obvious" points of egress.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 1:22:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mall-Ninja:
Best practice? Get you and yours out of there ASAP. Engage if you see him on the way out.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Avoid going for the exit door and find a way out that isn't going to be crowded with panicking sheep. Plus if some nut wants to raise his body count him may have planted an IED near the area crowds will bunch up.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 1:34:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2012 1:35:09 PM EDT by Silver_Surfer]
Make like a Mannequin and hope he passes by.

In any case I'd rather hunker down some place safe and wait till it's all over. You might think your'e safe far away but anything can happen anywhere.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 1:35:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR4U:
The distillation in the OP sounds good generally and is what I would in public.

I will say that after we had a guy wander around UT shooting an AK recently, I thought about it and decided I would stay put if something similar happens. My lab is basically a bunker and well-stocked with improvised weapons. If I leave, there's a chance I'll bump into the shooter. If I stay and the shooter wants to come in, he'd have to get through a locked solid oak door and I'd be waiting on the other side with a squirt bottle of 49% HF and a three foot iron rod.


I was in Jester when that happened. I figured I was in a pretty good place because it was unlikely the shooter could get to my room, unless he lived on my floor.

Had I been in class somewhere on campus I think staying in the classroom would've been a bad idea. A lot of people were just cowering in the lecture halls with no plan. I think it would've been way safer to get off campus, and to disappear into west campus or north campus.

What I don't know is what I would've done if I was in the PCL at the time. I only know of one way in or out of there, and there isn't a lot of cover anywhere in the building.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 1:36:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By FordGuy:
Originally Posted By davisac:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
I stopped carrying a pocket pistol after Aurora, accepting a Glock 26 as the bare minimum I'm willing to have in my hand in such a scenario. One thing I've been debating is a blow out kit. On one hand, it's clearly something desirable to have in such circumstances. On the other, it's a pain to carry unless you're carrying a pack / man purse, etc. I have a "Mumbai" bag in my truck, but if I make it to my truck, it's unlikely I'll hang around.
Thoughts? Possible solutions?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Yeah I would be curious if there is any useful "pocket" first aid/gunshot kit.


someone help me out here - would it not just be your standard pressure dressing? I realize there are fancy appliances out there now, but when the blood is spurting, anything will do if it will stop the flow for the moment.


Ford, please tell me if I start to derail your thread by going too medical vs tactics.

For background, I'm a paramedic, wilderness EMT and tactical medic. I've provided and taught emergency care with everything from improvised dressings to a full ALS ambulance.

Dealing with penetrating trauma requires the ability to put direct pressure on a hemorrhage, tourniquet a limb if direct pressure either doesn't work or isn't viable due to the situation, seal any torso wound with a dressing which won't allow air to pass through (an occlusive dressing) and control an airway. Some may add chest decompression and wound packing. Takes a modicum of training, especially decompression. The basic stuff is what usually saves lives.

A pressure dressing can be fashioned out of a T-shirt, towel or whatever, but securing such in place is a pain when compared to a commercial dressing. I've fallen in love with the Olaes dressing in large part because it has velcro strips every 6 inches on the bandage, so if you start to wrap it and slip or let go, you don't lose your pressure. Improv dressings take far longer to apply and generally aren't as effective, unless you can dedicate someone to holding it in place. They also suck when you’re doing self-aid, especially with a single arm.

We've all been taught how to fashion a tourniquet out of a belt, strap, the guts of your fallen enemy, yadda yadda. Unfortunately, improvised tourniquets don't work for squat (I can dig up the study when I get to my home computer) are slow to apply and are a pain to secure. Compare that to a CAT or SOF-T, and you'll never want to depend on a fan belt from the ford escort in the parking lot again. Again, this is especially true in self-aid.

Any hole between the belly button and the neck gets covered with an occlusive dressing, a dressing that won’t let air pass through. ( Simplified explanation – your lungs stick to your chest wall. When you breathe, you expand your chest. Your lungs are pulled along for the ride, negative pressure is caused, and your lungs fill with sweet, beautiful air. Poking a hole in the chest can make a hole in the lung, and air can then collect between the lung and chest wall, collapsing the lung. This can be worsened when you take a breath and air is pulled in that hole as well as through your airway.) Sticking a piece of plastic over that hole mitigates the problem. Most first aid classes teach students to use a piece of plastic wrapper and tape it over the hole. They even teach students to tape only three sides, making it a flutter valve that’ll let air out but not in. Turns out the whole valve thing doesn’t really work, but that’s the theory. Problem is, tape doesn’t stick to bloody, sweaty skin well, and I don’t want to be trying to tape the cellophane off a cigarette pack over a hole in my chest while hiding behind the sunglass hut. Commercial occlusive dressings are ‘peel and stick’, and the later generation ones like the HALO will stick to anything.

Airway control; In an unconscious person, the soft tissues in the mouth and upper throat can close off their airway. The head-tilt / chin lift or jaw thrust taught in CPR classes works well to address that, but it takes dedicating a person to that task. Having a NPA or OPA, a rubber tube or plastic J shaped piece that you can slip up their nose or in their mouth solves that problem. The nasal version can be used on someone with a gag reflex, so it’s the preferred choice in blow out kits.

Needle decompression of a pneumothorax isn’t really appropriate for this thread.

Wound packing requires gauze, or, preferably the Quik-Clot version, combat gauze. I guess you could try it with the scarf off the hot chick at the sunglass hut, but Kling or combat gauze makes it easier.

So, in a full BOK, I carry an Olaes dressing, A H&H flat pack dressing (not quite as nice as the Olaes, but takes up much less room. May well be dealing with two holes), a SOF-T tourniquet, a pack of HALO chest seals (fuckers would stick to Rosie O’Donnell’s snatch at an Easter buffet line), a roll of combat gauze, a nasal airway with lube and two thoracostomy needles. I also carry a benchmade rescue hook to cut clothing and such, a chunk of peel-off backing duct tape, two pairs of exam gloves and a sharpie. Great kit in a range bag or such, a bit large for EDC. Another member here, FMD, put together a minimalist BOK with a military dressing, some tape & one of the TK4 elastic tourniquets. It’s a bit larger than a pack of cigarettes, and might be a much better alternative. Still a bit much for jeans and a t-shirt when I’m already carrying a G26, spare mag, flashlight, knife & other pocket litter. You certainly can improvise, (having a knife will help do so), but it’s definitely sub-optimal.

I’m seriously considering going to a sling-pack man purse. It’d be nice to carry my kindle / cell phone charger, kindle, etc. If so, I’ll include a BOK. Can’t see carrying it through the mall though. So, I’m not sure what the best answer is. Maybe some peel off duct tape, a TK4 & the knife I always have.



Got a link to FMD's setup? Can't member search...
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 1:57:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lostnswv:
Originally Posted By Mall-Ninja:
Best practice? Get you and yours out of there ASAP. Engage if you see him on the way out.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Avoid going for the exit door and find a way out that isn't going to be crowded with panicking sheep. Plus if some nut wants to raise his body count him may have planted an IED near the area crowds will bunch up.


Unfortunately it's only a matter of time before one of these lunatics figures this out. There have been some halfass attempts, but someone will make it work and the results will be really ugly.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 2:14:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DonKey153:
Originally Posted By lostnswv:
Originally Posted By Mall-Ninja:
Best practice? Get you and yours out of there ASAP. Engage if you see him on the way out.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Avoid going for the exit door and find a way out that isn't going to be crowded with panicking sheep. Plus if some nut wants to raise his body count him may have planted an IED near the area crowds will bunch up.


Unfortunately it's only a matter of time before one of these lunatics figures this out. There have been some halfass attempts, but someone will make it work and the results will be really ugly.


Seems like going out the back way/one of the service entrances would be prudent if you're at, say, the mall.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 2:16:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mosspointers:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By FordGuy:
Originally Posted By davisac:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
I stopped carrying a pocket pistol after Aurora, accepting a Glock 26 as the bare minimum I'm willing to have in my hand in such a scenario. One thing I've been debating is a blow out kit. On one hand, it's clearly something desirable to have in such circumstances. On the other, it's a pain to carry unless you're carrying a pack / man purse, etc. I have a "Mumbai" bag in my truck, but if I make it to my truck, it's unlikely I'll hang around.
Thoughts? Possible solutions?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Yeah I would be curious if there is any useful "pocket" first aid/gunshot kit.


someone help me out here - would it not just be your standard pressure dressing? I realize there are fancy appliances out there now, but when the blood is spurting, anything will do if it will stop the flow for the moment.


Ford, please tell me if I start to derail your thread by going too medical vs tactics.

For background, I'm a paramedic, wilderness EMT and tactical medic. I've provided and taught emergency care with everything from improvised dressings to a full ALS ambulance.

Dealing with penetrating trauma requires the ability to put direct pressure on a hemorrhage, tourniquet a limb if direct pressure either doesn't work or isn't viable due to the situation, seal any torso wound with a dressing which won't allow air to pass through (an occlusive dressing) and control an airway. Some may add chest decompression and wound packing. Takes a modicum of training, especially decompression. The basic stuff is what usually saves lives.

A pressure dressing can be fashioned out of a T-shirt, towel or whatever, but securing such in place is a pain when compared to a commercial dressing. I've fallen in love with the Olaes dressing in large part because it has velcro strips every 6 inches on the bandage, so if you start to wrap it and slip or let go, you don't lose your pressure. Improv dressings take far longer to apply and generally aren't as effective, unless you can dedicate someone to holding it in place. They also suck when you’re doing self-aid, especially with a single arm.

We've all been taught how to fashion a tourniquet out of a belt, strap, the guts of your fallen enemy, yadda yadda. Unfortunately, improvised tourniquets don't work for squat (I can dig up the study when I get to my home computer) are slow to apply and are a pain to secure. Compare that to a CAT or SOF-T, and you'll never want to depend on a fan belt from the ford escort in the parking lot again. Again, this is especially true in self-aid.

Any hole between the belly button and the neck gets covered with an occlusive dressing, a dressing that won’t let air pass through. ( Simplified explanation – your lungs stick to your chest wall. When you breathe, you expand your chest. Your lungs are pulled along for the ride, negative pressure is caused, and your lungs fill with sweet, beautiful air. Poking a hole in the chest can make a hole in the lung, and air can then collect between the lung and chest wall, collapsing the lung. This can be worsened when you take a breath and air is pulled in that hole as well as through your airway.) Sticking a piece of plastic over that hole mitigates the problem. Most first aid classes teach students to use a piece of plastic wrapper and tape it over the hole. They even teach students to tape only three sides, making it a flutter valve that’ll let air out but not in. Turns out the whole valve thing doesn’t really work, but that’s the theory. Problem is, tape doesn’t stick to bloody, sweaty skin well, and I don’t want to be trying to tape the cellophane off a cigarette pack over a hole in my chest while hiding behind the sunglass hut. Commercial occlusive dressings are ‘peel and stick’, and the later generation ones like the HALO will stick to anything.

Airway control; In an unconscious person, the soft tissues in the mouth and upper throat can close off their airway. The head-tilt / chin lift or jaw thrust taught in CPR classes works well to address that, but it takes dedicating a person to that task. Having a NPA or OPA, a rubber tube or plastic J shaped piece that you can slip up their nose or in their mouth solves that problem. The nasal version can be used on someone with a gag reflex, so it’s the preferred choice in blow out kits.

Needle decompression of a pneumothorax isn’t really appropriate for this thread.

Wound packing requires gauze, or, preferably the Quik-Clot version, combat gauze. I guess you could try it with the scarf off the hot chick at the sunglass hut, but Kling or combat gauze makes it easier.

So, in a full BOK, I carry an Olaes dressing, A H&H flat pack dressing (not quite as nice as the Olaes, but takes up much less room. May well be dealing with two holes), a SOF-T tourniquet, a pack of HALO chest seals (fuckers would stick to Rosie O’Donnell’s snatch at an Easter buffet line), a roll of combat gauze, a nasal airway with lube and two thoracostomy needles. I also carry a benchmade rescue hook to cut clothing and such, a chunk of peel-off backing duct tape, two pairs of exam gloves and a sharpie. Great kit in a range bag or such, a bit large for EDC. Another member here, FMD, put together a minimalist BOK with a military dressing, some tape & one of the TK4 elastic tourniquets. It’s a bit larger than a pack of cigarettes, and might be a much better alternative. Still a bit much for jeans and a t-shirt when I’m already carrying a G26, spare mag, flashlight, knife & other pocket litter. You certainly can improvise, (having a knife will help do so), but it’s definitely sub-optimal.

I’m seriously considering going to a sling-pack man purse. It’d be nice to carry my kindle / cell phone charger, kindle, etc. If so, I’ll include a BOK. Can’t see carrying it through the mall though. So, I’m not sure what the best answer is. Maybe some peel off duct tape, a TK4 & the knife I always have.



Got a link to FMD's setup? Can't member search...


Dunno if he ever posted it. I shoot and train with him, saw it IRL. I'll drop him an IM about this thread.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 2:23:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
All I can really contribute is the fact that the phrase "best practice" may someday turn me into an active shooter.


How will your warfighters know how to prioritize their automatically generated action items in case of such a situation if they don't have previously approved and rightsized best practices that they can leverage?

ETA: Also, diversity.


You forgot paradigm.


And KISS Rifle/OODA Loop

In all seriousness I pay taxes so cops can hunt down the bad guy with machine guns Unless he is bearing down on me I'm getting out of there.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 2:27:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By davisac:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
I stopped carrying a pocket pistol after Aurora, accepting a Glock 26 as the bare minimum I'm willing to have in my hand in such a scenario. One thing I've been debating is a blow out kit. On one hand, it's clearly something desirable to have in such circumstances. On the other, it's a pain to carry unless you're carrying a pack / man purse, etc. I have a "Mumbai" bag in my truck, but if I make it to my truck, it's unlikely I'll hang around.
Thoughts? Possible solutions?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Yeah I would be curious if there is any useful "pocket" first aid/gunshot kit.


A t-shirt makes a good quick but not too clean bandage. It beats bleeding to death.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 2:29:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2012 2:35:38 PM EDT by FMD]
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By Mosspointers:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
... Another member here, FMD, put together a minimalist BOK with a military dressing, some tape & one of the TK4 elastic tourniquets. It’s a bit larger than a pack of cigarettes, and might be a much better alternative. Still a bit much for jeans and a t-shirt when I’m already carrying a G26, spare mag, flashlight, knife & other pocket litter. You certainly can improvise, (having a knife will help do so), but it’s definitely sub-optima


Got a link to FMD's setup? Can't member search...


Dunno if he ever posted it. I shoot and train with him, saw it IRL. I'll drop him an IM about this thread.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Link from when I was selling them in the EE

These were put together after I had a class with ResqDoc. He is very big on dual-use, minimalist setups that pack light.

No, I don't have any more for sale (haven't in years), but if you hit the thread all the contents are listed for you to put together your own.




ETA: Tom, the kit with the TK4 is a later, enhanced, personal setup (a one off) with some other stuff (angiocath, tetra valve, NPA, etc.).
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 2:29:49 PM EDT
I say panic.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 2:30:33 PM EDT
Where is the part about tweeting? Calling the media and being their eyes and ears?

Link Posted: 12/12/2012 2:32:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FordGuy:
Originally Posted By ToroAzul:
Do you remove your pistol from holster (even if leaving)?

I'd like to be at low ready but also don't want LEO et al to think I was the BG and get a new hole in my body.


I'd say OH HELL NO. Pistol only comes out when the decision to stop the threat has been made. that implies I can see the threat and recognize him as a threat. low ready, running, = the height of stupidity.


What if that's the difference between the shooter having the drop on you or not...?
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 2:33:49 PM EDT
If I'm alone I get the fook out of dodge and if I run into the shooter I'll deal with it, if not then that's even better.

If I'm with someone same thing as above.

If I'm with someone and separated from them I'll go find her/them and take care of shit as I go.

Link Posted: 12/12/2012 2:34:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
Originally Posted By FordGuy:
Originally Posted By davisac:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
I stopped carrying a pocket pistol after Aurora, accepting a Glock 26 as the bare minimum I'm willing to have in my hand in such a scenario. One thing I've been debating is a blow out kit. On one hand, it's clearly something desirable to have in such circumstances. On the other, it's a pain to carry unless you're carrying a pack / man purse, etc. I have a "Mumbai" bag in my truck, but if I make it to my truck, it's unlikely I'll hang around.
Thoughts? Possible solutions?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Yeah I would be curious if there is any useful "pocket" first aid/gunshot kit.


someone help me out here - would it not just be your standard pressure dressing? I realize there are fancy appliances out there now, but when the blood is spurting, anything will do if it will stop the flow for the moment.


Ford, please tell me if I start to derail your thread by going too medical vs tactics.

For background, I'm a paramedic, wilderness EMT and tactical medic. I've provided and taught emergency care with everything from improvised dressings to a full ALS ambulance.

Dealing with penetrating trauma requires the ability to put direct pressure on a hemorrhage, tourniquet a limb if direct pressure either doesn't work or isn't viable due to the situation, seal any torso wound with a dressing which won't allow air to pass through (an occlusive dressing) and control an airway. Some may add chest decompression and wound packing. Takes a modicum of training, especially decompression. The basic stuff is what usually saves lives.

A pressure dressing can be fashioned out of a T-shirt, towel or whatever, but securing such in place is a pain when compared to a commercial dressing. I've fallen in love with the Olaes dressing in large part because it has velcro strips every 6 inches on the bandage, so if you start to wrap it and slip or let go, you don't lose your pressure. Improv dressings take far longer to apply and generally aren't as effective, unless you can dedicate someone to holding it in place. They also suck when you’re doing self-aid, especially with a single arm.

We've all been taught how to fashion a tourniquet out of a belt, strap, the guts of your fallen enemy, yadda yadda. Unfortunately, improvised tourniquets don't work for squat (I can dig up the study when I get to my home computer) are slow to apply and are a pain to secure. Compare that to a CAT or SOF-T, and you'll never want to depend on a fan belt from the ford escort in the parking lot again. Again, this is especially true in self-aid.

Any hole between the belly button and the neck gets covered with an occlusive dressing, a dressing that won’t let air pass through. ( Simplified explanation – your lungs stick to your chest wall. When you breathe, you expand your chest. Your lungs are pulled along for the ride, negative pressure is caused, and your lungs fill with sweet, beautiful air. Poking a hole in the chest can make a hole in the lung, and air can then collect between the lung and chest wall, collapsing the lung. This can be worsened when you take a breath and air is pulled in that hole as well as through your airway.) Sticking a piece of plastic over that hole mitigates the problem. Most first aid classes teach students to use a piece of plastic wrapper and tape it over the hole. They even teach students to tape only three sides, making it a flutter valve that’ll let air out but not in. Turns out the whole valve thing doesn’t really work, but that’s the theory. Problem is, tape doesn’t stick to bloody, sweaty skin well, and I don’t want to be trying to tape the cellophane off a cigarette pack over a hole in my chest while hiding behind the sunglass hut. Commercial occlusive dressings are ‘peel and stick’, and the later generation ones like the HALO will stick to anything.

Airway control; In an unconscious person, the soft tissues in the mouth and upper throat can close off their airway. The head-tilt / chin lift or jaw thrust taught in CPR classes works well to address that, but it takes dedicating a person to that task. Having a NPA or OPA, a rubber tube or plastic J shaped piece that you can slip up their nose or in their mouth solves that problem. The nasal version can be used on someone with a gag reflex, so it’s the preferred choice in blow out kits.

Needle decompression of a pneumothorax isn’t really appropriate for this thread.

Wound packing requires gauze, or, preferably the Quik-Clot version, combat gauze. I guess you could try it with the scarf off the hot chick at the sunglass hut, but Kling or combat gauze makes it easier.

So, in a full BOK, I carry an Olaes dressing, A H&H flat pack dressing (not quite as nice as the Olaes, but takes up much less room. May well be dealing with two holes), a SOF-T tourniquet, a pack of HALO chest seals (fuckers would stick to Rosie O’Donnell’s snatch at an Easter buffet line), a roll of combat gauze, a nasal airway with lube and two thoracostomy needles. I also carry a benchmade rescue hook to cut clothing and such, a chunk of peel-off backing duct tape, two pairs of exam gloves and a sharpie. Great kit in a range bag or such, a bit large for EDC. Another member here, FMD, put together a minimalist BOK with a military dressing, some tape & one of the TK4 elastic tourniquets. It’s a bit larger than a pack of cigarettes, and might be a much better alternative. Still a bit much for jeans and a t-shirt when I’m already carrying a G26, spare mag, flashlight, knife & other pocket litter. You certainly can improvise, (having a knife will help do so), but it’s definitely sub-optimal.

I’m seriously considering going to a sling-pack man purse. It’d be nice to carry my kindle / cell phone charger, kindle, etc. If so, I’ll include a BOK. Can’t see carrying it through the mall though. So, I’m not sure what the best answer is. Maybe some peel off duct tape, a TK4 & the knife I always have.



This is one of the most informative posts I've seen here. Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/12/2012 2:41:39 PM EDT
The phrase "active shooter" is more peculiar than best practice.


Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
All I can really contribute is the fact that the phrase "best practice" may someday turn me into an active shooter.


Link Posted: 12/12/2012 2:44:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:
Originally Posted By davisac:
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
I stopped carrying a pocket pistol after Aurora, accepting a Glock 26 as the bare minimum I'm willing to have in my hand in such a scenario. One thing I've been debating is a blow out kit. On one hand, it's clearly something desirable to have in such circumstances. On the other, it's a pain to carry unless you're carrying a pack / man purse, etc. I have a "Mumbai" bag in my truck, but if I make it to my truck, it's unlikely I'll hang around.
Thoughts? Possible solutions?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Yeah I would be curious if there is any useful "pocket" first aid/gunshot kit.


A t-shirt makes a good quick but not too clean bandage. It beats bleeding to death.


Any thoughts on the ITS EDC trauma kit?
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