Active Shooter question concerning MY kids...

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Active Shooter question concerning MY kids...

Posted: 6/27/2012 3:55:40 PM EDT

I have two little girls ages 3 and 4. They are 18 months apart. Due to all the active shooter situations in schools I have a concern.

My concern is the sheeple hippie teachers. I'm very worried that in a real situation in the future if someone did attack my kids school the teachers will lock the kids in a room on lockdown and not let my girls go through a window or find a way out way past the school grounds.

I feel this is the safest thing to do than to stand by while some wacko jacko somes into each class and offs people.

What are your professional thoughts?

I'm a victim of molestation myself (neighbor kid) so I'm VERY VERY protective of my girls !!!!!!!!

Posted: 6/27/2012 4:07:23 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
I have two little girls ages 3 and 4. They are 18 months apart. Due to all the active shooter situations in schools I have a concern.

My concern is the sheeple hippie teachers. I'm very worried that in a real situation in the future if someone did attack my kids school the teachers will lock the kids in a room on lockdown and not let my girls go through a window or find a way out way past the school grounds.

I feel this is the safest thing to do than to stand by while some wacko jacko somes into each class and offs people.

What are your professional thoughts?

I'm a victim of molestation myself (neighbor kid) so I'm VERY VERY protective of my girls !!!!!!!!

A bunch of kids running around is not a good situation. Most schools are of concrete/block construction and offer better cover than a lawn. I set up a great many school safety plans (called Safe Schools plans here) and will always advocate lock down over undisciplined evacuation.

Posted: 6/27/2012 4:11:58 PM EDT

[#2]

yes but if the guy is out in the hallway...

it seems to me you'd want to break a window because most likely he's coming in!

Posted: 6/27/2012 4:14:10 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

I have two little girls ages 3 and 4. They are 18 months apart. Due to all the active shooter situations in schools I have a concern.

My concern is the sheeple hippie teachers. I'm very worried that in a real situation in the future if someone did attack my kids school the teachers will lock the kids in a room on lockdown and not let my girls go through a window or find a way out way past the school grounds.

I feel this is the safest thing to do than to stand by while some wacko jacko somes into each class and offs people.

What are your professional thoughts?

Looking at all most all mass shootings of that type, the people who die are the ones who try to hide, the people who live are the ones who ran away.

Like DeNiro said in Ronin, I never walk into a place I don't know how to walk out of.

Posted: 6/27/2012 4:20:28 PM EDT

[#4]

Talk to the school and find out what their policy is. Then work from there.

Realize that:

A) You aren't likely to change school policy
B) Your kids are in vastly more danger of thirty to a hundred other things than an active shooter, those other things just don't seem as scary. If you want to put that over protectiveness to use, start with more likely scenarios.

Posted: 6/27/2012 4:36:15 PM EDT

[#5]

Homeschool - It worked for my 8 children

Posted: 6/27/2012 5:21:27 PM EDT

[#6]

I understand your concern.

Since this is an open forum, I wont go into specifics. There has been a big shift in LE tactics post Columbine. Alot of agencies are trained (and continue train) to be more aggresive to these types scenerios. A lockdown and restricted movement/evacuation may seem odd, but trust me, a school system that effectively implements and can effectively carry out this emergency plan, combined with a trained agency to respond to this type of situation will be dramatically different than the results at Columbine.

Idealistically: You could talk to your school and see what they can tell you. You could possibly talk to the PTA and see if they can get information or maybe a presentation given to teachers and parents. Hell, you could get some of the parents and the school together and offer to be role players if they have any training for this coming up.

Posted: 6/27/2012 5:30:44 PM EDT

[#7]

Active shooter response has come a long way. Gone are the days of the initial officer arriving and employing containment tactics to buy time for SWAT arrival. Today, the response is ACTIVE and IMMEDIATE upon arrival with ANY and ALL means available.

I'm LEO and a parent... I support the lock down tactic. In the the world of give and take, pro and con, I believe it offers the best OVERALL protection. You don't want arriving offers to face the clutter and chaos of fleeing children and adults. Too much visual and audio clutter.

Posted: 6/27/2012 5:31:09 PM EDT

[#8]

I have similar concerns and after the fist "Lock Down" drill at school, I was pissed that I wasn't notified. In fact the school states that they will not inform parents of "Lock Downs" to avoid panic and mad rushes of parents distrupting their cowering. Under age 8 is is difficult to deal with. But I have told my kids that if they are ever in "real" no shit situation of active shooters. Be damned the lock down and get the hell out of school, find a phone, and call me from far away. I will deal with the administrators...tomorrow. How will they know when to cut an run? They will have to just keep aware and figure it out.

Posted: 6/28/2012 7:04:52 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Active shooter response has come a long way. Gone are the days of the initial officer arriving and employing containment tactics to buy time for SWAT arrival.

That's still the current SOP around here. Supposedly they just started training patrol guys in some kind of active shooter stuff but if our other training is any indicator, I wouldn't count on it to save anyone. I'm sure most supervisors on scene would still be too scared to let guys go in who aren't ESU.
Not to mention ESU most likely won't want patrol guys going in so the supervisor on scene will bow to their wishes..

Posted: 6/28/2012 10:06:56 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Active shooter response has come a long way. Gone are the days of the initial officer arriving and employing containment tactics to buy time for SWAT arrival.

That's still the current SOP around here. Supposedly they just started training patrol guys in some kind of active shooter stuff but if our other training is any indicator, I wouldn't count on it to save anyone. I'm sure most supervisors on scene would still be too scared to let guys go in who aren't ESU.
Not to mention ESU most likely won't want patrol guys going in so the supervisor on scene will bow to their wishes..

All I have is.... wow.

Posted: 6/28/2012 10:35:23 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Active shooter response has come a long way. Gone are the days of the initial officer arriving and employing containment tactics to buy time for SWAT arrival.

That's still the current SOP around here. Supposedly they just started training patrol guys in some kind of active shooter stuff but if our other training is any indicator, I wouldn't count on it to save anyone. I'm sure most supervisors on scene would still be too scared to let guys go in who aren't ESU.
Not to mention ESU most likely won't want patrol guys going in so the supervisor on scene will bow to their wishes..

No offense...but I HATE your old department. Over the years you have opened my eyes to the very fucked upness that is NYPD. The "people" running that smoke and mirrors dog and pony show should be ashamed to call themselves cops.

Posted: 6/28/2012 10:39:36 AM EDT

[#12]

I have no faith in public schools...my grand kids are instructed to run for it if they have a chance and they know exactly where they are headed for, too...that has also been discussed. I agree...the ones who die most often are the ones trapped inside...and I still teach some active shooter courses. I fear that in many cases the lone officer grabbing a rifle and running to the sound of the guns is not going to happen.

Posted: 6/28/2012 10:44:38 AM EDT

[#13]

I have told my kids to haul ass away from the gunfire.

We have a rally point established and they know I am coming if something happens.

The City I work in I can put 10 guys one right after another into a school to hunt down and neutralize a threat within 3-4 minutes. I'll have 40 guys within 10 minutes (but thats an eternity). I would have my kids lockdown there if they went to school there.

The town where my kids go to school has 2 cops on duty during the day. The town is rural and it would take them a long time on get on scene. My kids are better off running.

Posted: 6/28/2012 11:00:25 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
I have told my kids to haul ass away from the gunfire.

We have a rally point established and they know I am coming if something happens.

The City I work in I can put 10 guys one right after another into a school to hunt down and neutralize a threat within 3-4 minutes. I'll have 40 guys within 10 minutes (but thats an eternity). I would have my kids lockdown there if they went to school there.

The town where my kids go to school has 2 cops on duty during the day. The town is rural and it would take them a long time on get on scene. My kids are better off running.

I'm one of those 2 cops per shift towns. I've come to the realization that someday I will be going towards the sound of gunfire inside that school by myself. There's no doubt there will be casualties, but I couldn't live with myself if I knew that one kid could have lived if I had made my move sooner. I will not wait.

I have current blue prints and ground layouts of the three schools in my AO. I have small laminated ones that always ride in my uniform shirt pockets and larger ones that ride in the admin pouch on my tac vest.

Posted: 6/28/2012 11:09:41 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have two little girls ages 3 and 4. They are 18 months apart. Due to all the active shooter situations in schools I have a concern.

My concern is the sheeple hippie teachers. I'm very worried that in a real situation in the future if someone did attack my kids school the teachers will lock the kids in a room on lockdown and not let my girls go through a window or find a way out way past the school grounds.

I feel this is the safest thing to do than to stand by while some wacko jacko somes into each class and offs people.

What are your professional thoughts?

I'm a victim of molestation myself (neighbor kid) so I'm VERY VERY protective of my girls !!!!!!!!

A bunch of kids running around is not a good situation. Most schools are of concrete/block construction and offer better cover than a lawn. I set up a great many school safety plans (called Safe Schools plans here) and will always advocate lock down over undisciplined evacuation.

Yes. That is the best strategy for the most people. I don't give a shit about other people's kids. The best strategy for MY kid to survive is to get the fuck out and that will be easier if all the other kids are locked up out of the way. If a teacher gets in the way, my daughter will smash his face with a dictionary or kick that bitch right in the taco.

Posted: 6/28/2012 11:22:06 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have two little girls ages 3 and 4. They are 18 months apart. Due to all the active shooter situations in schools I have a concern.

My concern is the sheeple hippie teachers. I'm very worried that in a real situation in the future if someone did attack my kids school the teachers will lock the kids in a room on lockdown and not let my girls go through a window or find a way out way past the school grounds.

I feel this is the safest thing to do than to stand by while some wacko jacko somes into each class and offs people.

What are your professional thoughts?

I'm a victim of molestation myself (neighbor kid) so I'm VERY VERY protective of my girls !!!!!!!!

A bunch of kids running around is not a good situation. Most schools are of concrete/block construction and offer better cover than a lawn. I set up a great many school safety plans (called Safe Schools plans here) and will always advocate lock down over undisciplined evacuation.

Yes. That is the best strategy for the most people. I don't give a shit about other people's kids. The best strategy for MY kid to survive is to get the fuck out and that will be easier if all the other kids are locked up out of the way. If a teacher gets in the way, my daughter will smash his face with a dictionary or kick that bitch right in the taco.

Your comment, if true, is a disgrace.

Posted: 6/28/2012 11:34:46 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have two little girls ages 3 and 4. They are 18 months apart. Due to all the active shooter situations in schools I have a concern.

My concern is the sheeple hippie teachers. I'm very worried that in a real situation in the future if someone did attack my kids school the teachers will lock the kids in a room on lockdown and not let my girls go through a window or find a way out way past the school grounds.

I feel this is the safest thing to do than to stand by while some wacko jacko somes into each class and offs people.

What are your professional thoughts?

I'm a victim of molestation myself (neighbor kid) so I'm VERY VERY protective of my girls !!!!!!!!

A bunch of kids running around is not a good situation. Most schools are of concrete/block construction and offer better cover than a lawn. I set up a great many school safety plans (called Safe Schools plans here) and will always advocate lock down over undisciplined evacuation.

Yes. That is the best strategy for the most people. I don't give a shit about other people's kids. The best strategy for MY kid to survive is to get the fuck out and that will be easier if all the other kids are locked up out of the way. If a teacher gets in the way, my daughter will smash his face with a dictionary or kick that bitch right in the taco.

Your comment, if true, is a disgrace.

So you're saying that I should be happy that my kid has the same chance of surviving as everyone else, that I should not teach her how to increase her odds of survival, that even in the face of an obvious and immediate threat, that obedience is to be favored over survival? K, thx, I'll pass.

I don't have any ill will toward your kids. I don't want anyone to get hurt, ever, especially kids. If I have to chose between your kid and mine, though, I'm choosing mine. I'm not saying that I want my daughter doing things that will substantially impact your kid's chance of survival, either. I'm not going to tell her to holler "Classroom 34 said your mother is a whore!" I just think her chances are going to be better to unass the area. EVERYONE has a better chance by locking down so that cops can clear the building and the shooter is reduced in his ability to move, but ONE person has a better chance of surviving by saying "Fuck the rules, I'm out."

ETA: You're right that it's a bit harsh for me to say that I don't care about other people's kids. That's not exactly true. I just care about my kid A LOT more.

Posted: 6/28/2012 11:42:49 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have two little girls ages 3 and 4. They are 18 months apart. Due to all the active shooter situations in schools I have a concern.

My concern is the sheeple hippie teachers. I'm very worried that in a real situation in the future if someone did attack my kids school the teachers will lock the kids in a room on lockdown and not let my girls go through a window or find a way out way past the school grounds.

I feel this is the safest thing to do than to stand by while some wacko jacko somes into each class and offs people.

What are your professional thoughts?

I'm a victim of molestation myself (neighbor kid) so I'm VERY VERY protective of my girls !!!!!!!!

A bunch of kids running around is not a good situation. Most schools are of concrete/block construction and offer better cover than a lawn. I set up a great many school safety plans (called Safe Schools plans here) and will always advocate lock down over undisciplined evacuation.

Yes. That is the best strategy for the most people. I don't give a shit about other people's kids. The best strategy for MY kid to survive is to get the fuck out and that will be easier if all the other kids are locked up out of the way. If a teacher gets in the way, my daughter will smash his face with a dictionary or kick that bitch right in the taco.

Your comment, if true, is a disgrace.

So you're saying that I should be happy that my kid has the same chance of surviving as everyone else, that I should not teach her how to increase her odds of survival, that even in the face of an obvious and immediate threat, that obedience is to be favored over survival? K, thx, I'll pass.

I don't have any ill will toward your kids. I don't want anyone to get hurt, ever, especially kids. If I have to chose between your kid and mine, though, I'm choosing mine. I'm not saying that I want my daughter doing things that will substantially impact your kid's chance of survival, either. I'm not going to tell her to holler "Classroom 34 said your mother is a whore!" I just think her chances are going to be better to unass the area. EVERYONE has a better chance by locking down so that cops can clear the building and the shooter is reduced in his ability to move, but ONE person has a better chance of surviving by saying "Fuck the rules, I'm out."

ETA: You're right that it's a bit harsh for me to say that I don't care about other people's kids. That's not exactly true. I just care about my kid A LOT more.

My dad used to say that kids are like dicks.....I dont want to play with anyone elses but mine.

ETA- I understand what your saying. I've always said if I'm faced with an active shooter situation at work, I'm going in guns hot. If I'm off and have to go in after my kid ( I live in a completely different city from where I work)......He and I are the only ones I'm really worried about. Now...If I can puts rounds on the shooter without deviating from my direct path in and out, I will gladly do so.

Posted: 6/28/2012 11:51:26 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have two little girls ages 3 and 4. They are 18 months apart. Due to all the active shooter situations in schools I have a concern.

My concern is the sheeple hippie teachers. I'm very worried that in a real situation in the future if someone did attack my kids school the teachers will lock the kids in a room on lockdown and not let my girls go through a window or find a way out way past the school grounds.

I feel this is the safest thing to do than to stand by while some wacko jacko somes into each class and offs people.

What are your professional thoughts?

I'm a victim of molestation myself (neighbor kid) so I'm VERY VERY protective of my girls !!!!!!!!

A bunch of kids running around is not a good situation. Most schools are of concrete/block construction and offer better cover than a lawn. I set up a great many school safety plans (called Safe Schools plans here) and will always advocate lock down over undisciplined evacuation.

Yes. That is the best strategy for the most people. I don't give a shit about other people's kids. The best strategy for MY kid to survive is to get the fuck out and that will be easier if all the other kids are locked up out of the way. If a teacher gets in the way, my daughter will smash his face with a dictionary or kick that bitch right in the taco.

Your comment, if true, is a disgrace.

So you're saying that I should be happy that my kid has the same chance of surviving as everyone else, that I should not teach her how to increase her odds of survival, that even in the face of an obvious and immediate threat, that obedience is to be favored over survival? K, thx, I'll pass.

I don't have any ill will toward your kids. I don't want anyone to get hurt, ever, especially kids. If I have to chose between your kid and mine, though, I'm choosing mine. I'm not saying that I want my daughter doing things that will substantially impact your kid's chance of survival, either. I'm not going to tell her to holler "Classroom 34 said your mother is a whore!" I just think her chances are going to be better to unass the area. EVERYONE has a better chance by locking down so that cops can clear the building and the shooter is reduced in his ability to move, but ONE person has a better chance of surviving by saying "Fuck the rules, I'm out."

ETA: You're right that it's a bit harsh for me to say that I don't care about other people's kids. That's not exactly true. I just care about my kid A LOT more.

My dad used to say that kids are like dicks.....I dont want to play with anyone elses but mine.

ETA- I understand what your saying. I've always said if I'm faced with an active shooter situation at work, I'm going in guns hot. If I'm off and have to go in after my kid ( I live in a completely different city from where I work)......He and I are the only ones I'm really worried about. Now...If I can puts rounds on the shooter without deviating from my direct path in and out, I will gladly do so.

Roger that. When you're on duty it is your JOB to safeguard other people. When that uniform comes off, your legal responsibility ends. Before I had kids, I was of the mentality that if something bad happened I would go to the aid of other people. Now, not so much. My responsibility is to my family.

Posted: 6/28/2012 11:51:57 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have two little girls ages 3 and 4. They are 18 months apart. Due to all the active shooter situations in schools I have a concern.

My concern is the sheeple hippie teachers. I'm very worried that in a real situation in the future if someone did attack my kids school the teachers will lock the kids in a room on lockdown and not let my girls go through a window or find a way out way past the school grounds.

I feel this is the safest thing to do than to stand by while some wacko jacko somes into each class and offs people.

What are your professional thoughts?

I'm a victim of molestation myself (neighbor kid) so I'm VERY VERY protective of my girls !!!!!!!!

A bunch of kids running around is not a good situation. Most schools are of concrete/block construction and offer better cover than a lawn. I set up a great many school safety plans (called Safe Schools plans here) and will always advocate lock down over undisciplined evacuation.

Yes. That is the best strategy for the most people. I don't give a shit about other people's kids. The best strategy for MY kid to survive is to get the fuck out and that will be easier if all the other kids are locked up out of the way. If a teacher gets in the way, my daughter will smash his face with a dictionary or kick that bitch right in the taco.

Your comment, if true, is a disgrace.

So you're saying that I should be happy that my kid has the same chance of surviving as everyone else, that I should not teach her how to increase her odds of survival, that even in the face of an obvious and immediate threat, that obedience is to be favored over survival? K, thx, I'll pass.

I don't have any ill will toward your kids. I don't want anyone to get hurt, ever, especially kids. If I have to chose between your kid and mine, though, I'm choosing mine. I'm not saying that I want my daughter doing things that will substantially impact your kid's chance of survival, either. I'm not going to tell her to holler "Classroom 34 said your mother is a whore!" I just think her chances are going to be better to unass the area. EVERYONE has a better chance by locking down so that cops can clear the building and the shooter is reduced in his ability to move, but ONE person has a better chance of surviving by saying "Fuck the rules, I'm out."ETA: You're right that it's a bit harsh for me to say that I don't care about other people's kids. That's not exactly true. I just care about my kid A LOT more.

That's why the "if true" part in my post... I did not think it came out the way you meant it.

Perhaps you and I view things differently, which is fine, as I can not subcribe to the "every person for themself" response to survival... it's my sincere intent that I never give in to that thought should I find myself tested.

Posted: 6/28/2012 2:41:05 PM EDT

[#21]

Well we could what if this all day, but I cant help but think:

Having your kid go "rogue", does that increase their odds or maybe decrease every kids odds. Litlle Jane tries to open the door to the class room and the teacher stops her. Little Jane kicks the taecher in the "taco" and smashes her face with her school issued Ipad. Little Jane then opens the door to the hallway, where the gunman, who has been trying to get into locked class rooms grabs the door and now has access Jane and her class.

Would you have your kid carry a parachute if they had to fly, so that in the event there is a problem on the plane, they can open the door and jump out? I mean screw other people, my kids safety and her ability to decide to act independantly trump the crew and pilots responsibility for everyones safety.

Posted: 6/28/2012 4:06:04 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I have told my kids to haul ass away from the gunfire.

We have a rally point established and they know I am coming if something happens.

The City I work in I can put 10 guys one right after another into a school to hunt down and neutralize a threat within 3-4 minutes. I'll have 40 guys within 10 minutes (but thats an eternity). I would have my kids lockdown there if they went to school there.

The town where my kids go to school has 2 cops on duty during the day. The town is rural and it would take them a long time on get on scene. My kids are better off running.

I'm one of those 2 cops per shift towns. I've come to the realization that someday I will be going towards the sound of gunfire inside that school by myself. There's no doubt there will be casualties, but I couldn't live with myself if I knew that one kid could have lived if I had made my move sooner. I will not wait.

I have current blue prints and ground layouts of the three schools in my AO. I have small laminated ones that always ride in my uniform shirt pockets and larger ones that ride in the admin pouch on my tac vest.

I meant no disrespect to rural agencies, their job is much more difficult than mine since there is minimal backup. But with a longer response time to get one guy on scene my kids are better off beating feet than waiting for the cavalry.

Each first responder Law Enforcement acency in my state received the same exact training. The tactics are the same. But in Podunk, where I live, they don't have numbers. I'm certain they would do what we all would do if the situation occurred.....go to the gunfire and neutralize the threat. But it takes them longer to get there and they are on their own for a while.

My agency could have around 40 guys in a school in 10 minutes where my town could have 1 or 2. That's a big difference if you are waiting for someone to come rescue you while you are in lockdown.

Posted: 6/28/2012 5:03:56 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Active shooter response has come a long way. Gone are the days of the initial officer arriving and employing containment tactics to buy time for SWAT arrival.

That's still the current SOP around here. Supposedly they just started training patrol guys in some kind of active shooter stuff but if our other training is any indicator, I wouldn't count on it to save anyone. I'm sure most supervisors on scene would still be too scared to let guys go in who aren't ESU.
Not to mention ESU most likely won't want patrol guys going in so the supervisor on scene will bow to their wishes..

No offense...but I HATE your old department. Over the years you have opened my eyes to the very fucked upness that is NYPD. The "people" running that smoke and mirrors dog and pony show should be ashamed to call themselves cops.

Glad I could pull back the curtain for you.

Posted: 6/28/2012 10:46:02 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Active shooter response has come a long way. Gone are the days of the initial officer arriving and employing containment tactics to buy time for SWAT arrival.

That's still the current SOP around here. Supposedly they just started training patrol guys in some kind of active shooter stuff but if our other training is any indicator, I wouldn't count on it to save anyone. I'm sure most supervisors on scene would still be too scared to let guys go in who aren't ESU.
Not to mention ESU most likely won't want patrol guys going in so the supervisor on scene will bow to their wishes..

We know how deficient NYPD training is

Quoted:

I feel this is the safest thing to do than to stand by while some wacko jacko somes into each class and offs people.

What are your professional thoughts?

I think a lot of it depends on what the construction of the school is like. The Junior High I attended was built in the 70s and had no classroom doors, and the walls between classrooms were made of some sort of plastic. I recall that it was very noisy, and obviously the plastic wouldn't stop anyone, let alone the lack of doors. I noticed when I went back years later that they ungraded to real doors and in some cases, built real walls....

Many classrooms with more traditional construction still have doors that have glass windows. Obviously not very secure against someone wishing to gain entry.

Even if your kid runs, if a perimeter has been set up, they may not get far depending on what the agencies SOP is for checking all departing students for a shooter trying to flee in the crowd.

Overall its a tough call, and I can't fault a parent for telling their kid to take a chance running. That may not turn out the way you hoped it would, but its a gamble

Posted: 6/28/2012 11:35:19 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Talk to the school and find out what their policy is. Then work from there.

Realize that:

A) You aren't likely to change school policy
B) Your kids are in vastly more danger of thirty to a hundred other things than an active shooter, those other things just don't seem as scary. If you want to put that over protectiveness to use, start with more likely scenarios.

This.
Your kids are 100 times more likely to drown in a swimming pool than to be shot.

Posted: 6/29/2012 5:00:20 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
.

Since this is an open forum, I wont go into specifics. There has been a big shift in LE tactics post Columbine. A lot of agencies are trained (and continue train) to be more aggressive to these types scenarios. A lockdown and restricted movement/evacuation may seem odd, but trust me, a school system that effectively implements and can effectively carry out this emergency plan, combined with a trained agency to respond to this type of situation will be dramatically different than the results at Columbine.

Idealistically: You could talk to your school and see what they can tell you. You could possibly talk to the PTA and see if they can get information or maybe a presentation given to teachers and parents. Hell, you could get some of the parents and the school together and offer to be role players if they have any training for this coming up.

Agreed! Active shooter training has drastically changed and gone are the days of the first officer on scene simply "holding things down". The new focus is "Quad Training", but we're told that it could be just two officers going into a school/ hospital or other large building to stop the threat. It's a shit sandwich, no doubt about it... but every bang you hear is a kid getting shot.

Posted: 6/29/2012 6:03:02 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Active shooter training has drastically changed and gone are the days of the first officer on scene simply "holding things down".

See page 1.

Posted: 6/29/2012 6:10:35 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Having your kid go "rogue", does that increase their odds or maybe decrease every kids odds. Litlle Jane tries to open the door to the class room and the teacher stops her. Little Jane kicks the taecher in the "taco" and smashes her face with her school issued Ipad. Little Jane then opens the door to the hallway, where the gunman, who has been trying to get into locked class rooms grabs the door and now has access Jane and her class.

Jeez.

Obviously you do not open the door in that scenario, but if the class is coming back from lunch and shots ring out from the lunchroom, and the teacher says everybody in classroom lock the door, my kid is eyeing the emergency exit and bolts for it, does not stop running till he is home safe.

ETA:

This also has little to do with schools. It is basic survival skills/planning for any place there might be a shooting, a mall, a theater, the gas station. Do you hide and hope not to be seen, or escape immediately? YMMV.

Posted: 6/29/2012 6:49:44 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Having your kid go "rogue", does that increase their odds or maybe decrease every kids odds. Litlle Jane tries to open the door to the class room and the teacher stops her. Little Jane kicks the taecher in the "taco" and smashes her face with her school issued Ipad. Little Jane then opens the door to the hallway, where the gunman, who has been trying to get into locked class rooms grabs the door and now has access Jane and her class.

Jeez.

Obviously you do not open the door in that scenario, but if the class is coming back from lunch and shots ring out from the lunchroom, and the teacher says everybody in classroom lock the door, my kid is eyeing the emergency exit and bolts for it, does not stop running till he is home safe.

ETA:

This also has little to do with schools. It is basic survival skills/planning for any place there might be a shooting, a mall, a theater, the gas station. Do you hide and hope not to be seen, or escape immediately? YMMV.

(Not an LEO)

Except that shooters are like electricity- they tend to prefer the path of least resistence. Things like locked doors are barriers that should cause the shooter to want to move on. On a smaller, 1 (and even 2) level school with numerous exits to to the outside (like many of our primary and elementary schools) it may be possible to for a kid to safely dart out of the building. In larger buildings with more controlled access getting to any of the exits would require going through main corridors. And, the safety of student(s) who dosuccessfully escape will still be premised on there not being a threat waiting outside- which has happened (In Jonesboro, for example, students were shot in the school yard by 2 shooters after 1 shooter went into the building and pulled a fire alarm).

Posted: 6/29/2012 6:57:50 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Having your kid go "rogue", does that increase their odds or maybe decrease every kids odds. Litlle Jane tries to open the door to the class room and the teacher stops her. Little Jane kicks the taecher in the "taco" and smashes her face with her school issued Ipad. Little Jane then opens the door to the hallway, where the gunman, who has been trying to get into locked class rooms grabs the door and now has access Jane and her class.

Jeez.

Obviously you do not open the door in that scenario, but if the class is coming back from lunch and shots ring out from the lunchroom, and the teacher says everybody in classroom lock the door, my kid is eyeing the emergency exit and bolts for it, does not stop running till he is home safe.

ETA:

This also has little to do with schools. It is basic survival skills/planning for any place there might be a shooting, a mall, a theater, the gas station. Do you hide and hope not to be seen, or escape immediately? YMMV.

Like I said, we could introduce alot of variables in this scenerio. Lockdowns make sense if the schools structure provide a higher than normal level of security. Our schools, for example have very few windows in the class rooms that allow exterior views. Most walls are cinder block or concrete. The class room doors in older schools are solid wood and steel doors in newer schools. School construction and security have benefited from two things here. First, our exposure to hurricanes. Alot of our schools are designed to withstand some effects of hurricanes and also serve as public shelters. So that means less exterior glass and heavier construction. Second, security concerns. This is also a concession to the amount of technology and support equipment in schools. With the introduction of computers and high value audio/video systems being introduced years ago, schools also became the target for more thefts and burglaries. So this resulted in less windows, heavier doors and better locks. Schools in other areas may not have had the same experience or benefits.

Yes, a suspect hitting a school during lunch would be among the worst case scenerios. Just like hearing shots or being shot at in a public place. My wife, for example, knows that if we're in a public place and shots are heard she is to take our teen age son and either find a safe way out away from the shooting. If she cant, she will find the best place to shelter and do whatever she can to harden the location she ends up at. She also knows that she could have to physically defend her self if it comes down to it. Since I'm required to carry off duty in the county of my jurisdiction, I would be going to where the shooting is at.

Posted: 6/29/2012 7:23:38 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
I have similar concerns and after the fist "Lock Down" drill at school, I was pissed that I wasn't notified. In fact the school states that they will not inform parents of "Lock Downs" to avoid panic and mad rushes of parents distrupting their cowering. Under age 8 is is difficult to deal with. But I have told my kids that if they are ever in "real" no shit situation of active shooters. Be damned the lock down and get the hell out of school, find a phone, and call me from far away. I will deal with the administrators...tomorrow. How will they know when to cut an run? They will have to just keep aware and figure it out.

Even for older kids, simply being put on lock down can be very traumatic (momentarily, in a way). Even during drills, it is easy to read the sense of panic amongst children immediately after they hear the words "lock down" which shifts to either fear if they believe it is real OR lacking seriousness if they believe it is a drill. Despite best efforts to prevent it, it's amazing how well some kids can text out on their cell phones while still keeping them out of sight. Some elementary schools use code to announce, which I believe can be helpful for young children. I don't believe that the code would have the same effect for older elementary, middle or high school students- they would read right through it.

When we think about lock downs, the first the thing that pops into mind is active shooter. However, a vast majority of them are for everything but. Some might say that they are not used judiciously enough (which at times may be true) but they can also be a good tool for protecting students. Some schools (or districts) also have better designed policies than other- with some having tiered levels of lockdown. Many lock downs are for threats outside the building and are intended to keep children from going outside OR to keep a dangerous person from coming in. For most threats that are inside the building (certain disturbances, for example), containing students IS unquestionably the best response.

Posted: 6/29/2012 7:52:51 AM EDT

[#32]

After being a Firefighter/Paramedic and Tactical Medic for several years, I am now a Teacher. I find myself being one of the very few in education that feel the current policies are horrible (if you want to guess the district PM me - you may be surprised). There is very little real information passed down from Safety and Security to the teachers. For example if you go back and look at all the mass violence incidents they tend to happen in pairs with a second shooting following a few days after a first shooting. Bad guys also learn from previous incidents. I wanted our Safety and Security staff to send an email out to all teachers after one high profile incident to remind teachers to review policies and procedures, they said no. ALL active shooter incidents end when the shooter is confronted by just about anyone or anything. The majority of the time they kill themselves but in a few they shoot it out with police - Trolley Square and Carthage NC Nursing Home are the two major ones. So how do we stop the killing - Confront the shooter. Even with a school resource officer in the school there will be a delay. The staff at my school know me, know my mentality, and most of them know what I WILL do in an event like this. I am a CCW holder and feel less safe in school than anywhere else I have ever been. Even as a Firefighter going into some major shitholes I felt safer because I had 3 or 4 guys of equal mindset with me, not in school.

I have a 5 year old daughter who is starting kindergarden next year and her school is brand new and built with security in mind. Once she gets a bit older she will have a good plan for this type of event at school.

Posted: 6/29/2012 8:03:55 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Talk to the school and find out what their policy is. Then work from there.

Realize that:

A) You aren't likely to change school policy
B) Your kids are in vastly more danger of thirty to a hundred other things than an active shooter, those other things just don't seem as scary. If you want to put that over protectiveness to use, start with more likely scenarios.

This.
Your kids are 100 times more likely to drown in a swimming pool than to be shot.

Thats why I teach them how to swim or wear a PFD. Sorry but if any given scenario is out of my control, I will do everything I can to make sure I stack the odds in favor of my child surviving. I would do the same for every student in my school.

Posted: 6/29/2012 8:30:23 AM EDT

[#34]

TacMedicC07:

I commend your critical thinking on this issue. I believe that you are the type of educator that we would hope any child has in their class room if violence were to occur. The critical part of a schools response planning has to be that the teachers take charge of their students safety. The teacher has to realize when to act, do it swiftly and then be prepared to take whatever action may be needed next. This could be complying with locking the class room door and moving the sudents to the safest area of the class room to limit exposure from any door windows or the next weakest area of the structure. Some teachers here mentioned during training (they and some other school staff were role players) packing whatever furniture or large items they had in the class room in front of the door, then grabbing the best ad hoc weapon (club) they could find. The one thing they mentioned was that the hallways were long and they felt very exposed when scenerios called for them to be in the hallways. Also, the directions and locations of gun fire (blanks) cane be very difficult to identify in large buildings with long hallways (especially with hallway intersections).

(edited for the wrong post quoted)

Posted: 6/29/2012 9:33:58 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Well we could what if this all day, but I cant help but think:

Having your kid go "rogue", does that increase their odds or maybe decrease every kids odds. Litlle Jane tries to open the door to the class room and the teacher stops her. Little Jane kicks the taecher in the "taco" and smashes her face with her school issued Ipad. Little Jane then opens the door to the hallway, where the gunman, who has been trying to get into locked class rooms grabs the door and now has access Jane and her class.

Would you have your kid carry a parachute if they had to fly, so that in the event there is a problem on the plane, they can open the door and jump out? I mean screw other people, my kids safety and her ability to decide to act independantly trump the crew and pilots responsibility for everyones safety.

You're not too good at reading comprehension and critical thinking are you? Your statements have absolutely nothing in common with mine.

ETA: Your later point about construction is a good one. My elementary, middle, and high schools all had floor to ceiling windows in each classroom and doors with windows in them. My high school also had classroom pairs that shared a common room. That means there were three ways in and out of each room and none of those were particularly secure. My strategy is colored by this sort of construction where "lockdown" really amounts to hiding and hoping that the good guys get to the bad guy before he gets to you. In a building with more secure construction like you mention later, not only would it probably be a better idea to comply with the lockdown, it would likely be very difficult for most children to get out.

Posted: 6/29/2012 10:13:52 AM EDT

[#36]

Lots of good conversation, and proof that there isn't a one size fits all fix.

One we use with our schools, get's good feedback and covers a lot of the gambit is ALICE. It's not LE sensitive, so you can google it. There's articles about it almost every other day, it's been on national news and nothing earth shattering about its approach.

We teach it at all levels of our schools, pre-k through our university. It isn't the only thing we have on the table, but it does encourage the schools to become proactive in thinking about what if.

I would highly discourage attempting to penetrate the perimeter of a facility with shooter and LE teams making entry. In a world that has evolved since Columbine and Mumbai, MACTAC/Active Shooter Teams, etc...does not provide the option of outside support or intervention. We train hard to prevent Blue on Blue; a parent (especially armed) may end up an unfortunate situation.

YMMV

Posted: 6/29/2012 1:33:31 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Well we could what if this all day, but I cant help but think:

Having your kid go "rogue", does that increase their odds or maybe decrease every kids odds. Litlle Jane tries to open the door to the class room and the teacher stops her. Little Jane kicks the taecher in the "taco" and smashes her face with her school issued Ipad. Little Jane then opens the door to the hallway, where the gunman, who has been trying to get into locked class rooms grabs the door and now has access Jane and her class.

Would you have your kid carry a parachute if they had to fly, so that in the event there is a problem on the plane, they can open the door and jump out? I mean screw other people, my kids safety and her ability to decide to act independantly trump the crew and pilots responsibility for everyones safety.

You're not too good at reading comprehension and critical thinking are you? Your statements have absolutely nothing in common with mine.

ETA: Your later point about construction is a good one. My elementary, middle, and high schools all had floor to ceiling windows in each classroom and doors with windows in them. My high school also had classroom pairs that shared a common room. That means there were three ways in and out of each room and none of those were particularly secure. My strategy is colored by this sort of construction where "lockdown" really amounts to hiding and hoping that the good guys get to the bad guy before he gets to you. In a building with more secure construction like you mention later, not only would it probably be a better idea to comply with the lockdown, it would likely be very difficult for most children to get out.

" Yes. That is the best strategy for the most people. I don't give a shit about other people's kids. The best strategy for MY kid to survive is to get the fuck out and that will be easier if all the other kids
are locked up out of the way. If a teacher gets in the way, my daughter will smash his face with a dictionary or kick that bitch right in the taco."

My bad, the teacher will hopefully be doing whatever security procedures the school has in place and the safety of all the children will be better served by a student compromising this and the teacher being smashed in the face with a dictionary or being kicked in the taco. Improve one kids chances by assualting the teacher and leaving the other kids as a distraction for the assailant. Check. Off to watch that scene from aliens where Burke tries to lock Ripley and Newt in with the face huggers and then flees the lab only to be met by an alien.

Posted: 6/29/2012 2:31:03 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
After being a Firefighter/Paramedic and Tactical Medic for several years, I am now a Teacher. I find myself being one of the very few in education that feel the current policies are horrible (if you want to guess the district PM me - you may be surprised).

its the one we all think it is isn't it...

either that one or boulder to make my first guess a little more obvious

Posted: 6/29/2012 2:49:35 PM EDT

[#39]

I'm a teacher. I can't carry at school obviously so I went out and bought this (the locker is in my room, just by the door):

My plan for if we ever go on "lock down" is to put the kids in a far corner of the room, lock the door, and wait. If the bad guy tries to poke his head into my room I will fucking swing for the fence and pulverize his face. I take my responsibility for my kids very seriously.

Why do you guys call bullshit on the MSM for everything EXCEPT the idea that teachers are all wimpy, socialist, liberals?

Posted: 6/29/2012 3:24:25 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
I'm a teacher. I can't carry at school obviously so I went out and bought this (the locker is in my room, just by the door):

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq331/AR45fan/cb9018b9.jpg

My plan for if we ever go on "lock down" is to put the kids in a far corner of the room, lock the door, and wait. If the bad guy tries to poke his head into my room I will fucking swing for the fence and pulverize his face. I take my responsibility for my kids very seriously.

Why do you guys call bullshit on the MSM for everything EXCEPT the idea that teachers are all wimpy, socialist, liberals?

I don't think im revealing any state secrets when I say that there are a couple simple systems out there to very quickly and very easily significantly increase the security strength of nearly all school style classroom doors that use a hydralic style arm mechanism to open and close at least for a good couple of minutes. Are all you guys who teach aware of these little devices??

25 dollars from countycomm.com

Posted: 6/29/2012 6:45:48 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted: Off to watch that scene from aliens where Burke tries to lock Ripley and Newt in with the face huggers and then flees the lab only to be met by an alien.

You're kinda making my point for me.

Posted: 6/29/2012 6:47:03 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
I'm a teacher. I can't carry at school obviously so I went out and bought this (the locker is in my room, just by the door):

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq331/AR45fan/cb9018b9.jpg

My plan for if we ever go on "lock down" is to put the kids in a far corner of the room, lock the door, and wait. If the bad guy tries to poke his head into my room I will fucking swing for the fence and pulverize his face. I take my responsibility for my kids very seriously.

Why do you guys call bullshit on the MSM for everything EXCEPT the idea that teachers are all wimpy, socialist, liberals?

If more teachers were like you, we wouldn't have these problems. Thank you for your service.

Posted: 6/29/2012 7:42:34 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Homeschool - It worked for my 8 children

Dude... Get cable tv or something!

And how do you even have time to keep making more with that many anklebiters to chase?

Posted: 6/29/2012 7:48:29 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm a teacher. I can't carry at school obviously so I went out and bought this (the locker is in my room, just by the door):

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq331/AR45fan/cb9018b9.jpg

My plan for if we ever go on "lock down" is to put the kids in a far corner of the room, lock the door, and wait. If the bad guy tries to poke his head into my room I will fucking swing for the fence and pulverize his face. I take my responsibility for my kids very seriously.

Why do you guys call bullshit on the MSM for everything EXCEPT the idea that teachers are all wimpy, socialist, liberals?

I don't think im revealing any state secrets when I say that there are a couple simple systems out there to very quickly and very easily significantly increase the security strength of nearly all school style classroom doors that use a hydralic style arm mechanism to open and close at least for a good couple of minutes. Are all you guys who teach aware of these little devices??

25 dollars from countycomm.com

You're not revealing anything with that weird, cryptic bit of advice

. What are you talking about? Give us a link; some people might be interested. As for me, my school building dates to the 1930s with 1960s upgrades... My doors are wood with big windows and no hydraulic mechanism.

Posted: 6/30/2012 1:59:30 PM EDT

[#45]

Honestly, i support the Lockdown tactic. I went to an Active Shooter in my jurisdiction (luckily it was a punk who was just shooting at ceilings and hit nobody), and responding officers had to fight their way through hundreds of screaming high shool kids. it was bad, if they had gone to lockdown like they should have then we'd have been able to get in faster and identify the threat more quickly.

Besides, have you seen school doors lately? solid oak or metal built into metal frames? those bitches would take a good few minutes to break down if locked and the douchebag didnt have tools.

Posted: 7/2/2012 5:49:38 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm a teacher. I can't carry at school obviously so I went out and bought this (the locker is in my room, just by the door):

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq331/AR45fan/cb9018b9.jpg

My plan for if we ever go on "lock down" is to put the kids in a far corner of the room, lock the door, and wait. If the bad guy tries to poke his head into my room I will fucking swing for the fence and pulverize his face. I take my responsibility for my kids very seriously.

Why do you guys call bullshit on the MSM for everything EXCEPT the idea that teachers are all wimpy, socialist, liberals?

I don't think im revealing any state secrets when I say that there are a couple simple systems out there to very quickly and very easily significantly increase the security strength of nearly all school style classroom doors that use a hydralic style arm mechanism to open and close at least for a good couple of minutes. Are all you guys who teach aware of these little devices??

25 dollars from countycomm.com

You're not revealing anything with that weird, cryptic bit of advice

. What are you talking about? Give us a link; some people might be interested. As for me, my school building dates to the 1930s with 1960s upgrades... My doors are wood with big windows and no hydraulic mechanism.

Sorry, didn't mean to be cryptic, I had a much longer post at first with some info that was probably not appropriate on an open forum so I decided to just delete it all except for this which is obviously public
http://www.countycomm.com/hydralock.html

Posted: 7/3/2012 10:43:52 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Talk to the school and find out what their policy is. Then work from there.

Realize that:

A) You aren't likely to change school policy
B) Your kids are in vastly more danger of thirty to a hundred other things than an active shooter, those other things just don't seem as scary. If you want to put that over protectiveness to use, start with more likely scenarios.

yep, crossing the street and getting hit by a car is 100 times more dangerous and likely than an active shooter in a school.

drowning in a pool,

choking on a candy

falling out of a tree.

waaaayyyyy down the list is harm from a predator or criminal, it's over blown.

just because it happened to you OP does not make it statistically likely for your kids.

but life has it's strange twists and turns for sure, no guarantees on anything.......ever.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Active Shooter question concerning MY kids...

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