So a good friend and I had an argument today while we were doing nothing. The argument was on the topic of accidental and negligent discharges.

His premise was that there should be no use for the term "negligent" discharge because it IS an accidental discharge.

I say he is wrong, because a negligent discharge is out of carlessness, eg:

Situation 1:

You are at the shooting range, you load a cartridge into the weapon chamber, upon pulling the trigger to fire, the firing pin slams the primer, and the weapon does not fire. In an attempt to clear the weapon and make it safe by trying to open the bolt with the muzzle aimed in a safe direction down range, the weapon fires during the clearing process. This is an accidental discharge.

Situation 2:

You are at home on the couch, finished from a day of shooting your handgun at the range. You are prepped to clean the weapon and let the TV entertain you while you do it. You forget the rules of handling a firearm (treat every weapon as if it is loaded, never point at something not intended to be destroyed, etc.) and you see Charles Schumer's mug on the screen. Before clearing your weapon and not making sure it is unloaded, you aim after exclaiming "Fuck you, Chucky" and pull the trigger. One round of .45ACP ball exits the barrel and terminates your television. Your carelessness and disregard for firearm safe handling makes this a negligent discharge.

For those who argue:

neg‧li‧gent  /ˈnɛglɪdʒənt/
Pronunciation[neg-li-juhnt]
–adjective
1. guilty of or characterized by neglect, as of duty: negligent officials.
2. lazily careless; offhand: a negligent wave of his manicured hand.

ac‧ci‧den‧tal  /ˌæksɪˈdɛntl/
Pronunciation[ak-si-den-tl]
–adjective
1. happening by chance or accident; not planned; unexpected: an accidental meeting.
2. nonessential; incidental; subsidiary: accidental benefits.
3. Music. relating to or indicating sharps, flats, or naturals.
–noun
4. a nonessential or subsidiary circumstance, characteristic, or feature.
5. Music. a sign placed before a note indicating a chromatic alteration of its pitch.

One could argue that the negligence makes it an accidental discharge, which is true in a dimension because it was not planned, however, planning was not made to avoid it, and the negligence happened because of carelessness.

I did explain however, that his existence on earth can be either, because we don't know if his dad's condom broke, making it an accident, or if through his father's negligence went bareback.

Finger on the trigger ND, finger off the trigger(gun malfunction) AD

Quoted: Finger on the trigger ND, finger off the trigger(gun malfunction) AD

That's the way I look at it.

You ND near me and I don't want to shoot anywhere near you again.

Taffy

Quoted: Finger on the trigger ND, finger off the trigger(gun malfunction) AD

negative ghost rider....finger off the trigger safety on gun discharges striking person or object not meant to be shot equal negligent because of what you were sweeping with your muzzle....regardless of your finger being off the trigger....

my father gave me this advise....

treat guns like the liberals, guns are full of evil magic when you aren't looking they load themselves and shoot at little children anytime they see the opportunity

.....i have lived by that and I'm sure it has helped....

If it is a mechanical malfunction caused simply by the weapon
going off by itself with no negligent action, it's an AD.  In fact,
it's not even accidental on the owner's fault.

Quoted: Quoted: Finger on the trigger ND, finger off the trigger(gun malfunction) AD negative ghost rider....finger off the trigger safety on gun discharges striking person or object not meant to be shot equal negligent because of what you were sweeping with your muzzle....regardless of your finger being off the trigger.... my father gave me this advise.... treat guns like the liberals, guns are full of evil magic when you aren't looking they load themselves and shoot at little children anytime they see the opportunity .....i have lived by that and I'm sure it has helped....

good point...well made

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Finger on the trigger ND, finger off the trigger(gun malfunction) AD negative ghost rider....finger off the trigger safety on gun discharges striking person or object not meant to be shot equal negligent because of what you were sweeping with your muzzle....regardless of your finger being off the trigger.... my father gave me this advise.... treat guns like the liberals, guns are full of evil magic when you aren't looking they load themselves and shoot at little children anytime they see the opportunity .....i have lived by that and I'm sure it has helped.... good point...well made

Arent we talking about the actual "Discharge" though, rather than the result"

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Finger on the trigger ND, finger off the trigger(gun malfunction) AD negative ghost rider....finger off the trigger safety on gun discharges striking person or object not meant to be shot equal negligent because of what you were sweeping with your muzzle....regardless of your finger being off the trigger.... my father gave me this advise.... treat guns like the liberals, guns are full of evil magic when you aren't looking they load themselves and shoot at little children anytime they see the opportunity .....i have lived by that and I'm sure it has helped.... good point...well made Arent we talking about the actual "Discharge" though, rather than the result"

That is what I was going for. Anything or anyone hurt because of the discharge would be because of negligence

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Finger on the trigger ND, finger off the trigger(gun malfunction) AD negative ghost rider....finger off the trigger safety on gun discharges striking person or object not meant to be shot equal negligent because of what you were sweeping with your muzzle....regardless of your finger being off the trigger.... my father gave me this advise.... treat guns like the liberals, guns are full of evil magic when you aren't looking they load themselves and shoot at little children anytime they see the opportunity .....i have lived by that and I'm sure it has helped.... good point...well made Arent we talking about the actual "Discharge" though, rather than the result"

True but depending on the result of the AD ...this could prove negligance. If someone was shot due to a mechanical faliure....fine....but how did the weapon come to pointing at a person.  

Recently I had a conversation with a game warden and he was telling me about a guy that had an AD in his tree stand.

I argued that it was a ND.

His definition.

ND - It is New Years Eve and you go outside at midnight and shoot a gun in the air within a city.

I don't call that negligent, I call that criminal.

AD - discharging a firearm when you did not intend to.

I did not agree with him, because if you follow the rules, your finger should never be on the trigger until you have identified your target and what is behind your target and you are ready to shoot.

If your finger is on the trigger and you are not ready and you happen to pull the trigger you are negligent.

A firearm discharging when cleaning a gun should never happen.  That is not an accident.

Quoted: Recently I had a conversation with a game warden and he was telling me about a guy that had an AD in his tree stand. I argued that it was a ND. His definition. ND - It is New Years Eve and you go outside at midnight and shoot a gun in the air within a city. I don't call that negligent, I call that criminal. AD - discharging a firearm when you did not intend to. I did not agree with him, because if you follow the rules, your finger should never be on the trigger until you have identified your target and what is behind your target and you are ready to shoot. If your finger is on the trigger and you are not ready and you happen to pull the trigger you are negligent. A firearm discharging when cleaning a gun should never happen.  That is not an accident.

That was most definitely an intended discharge.

Quoted: Quoted: Recently I had a conversation with a game warden and he was telling me about a guy that had an AD in his tree stand. I argued that it was a ND. His definition. ND - It is New Years Eve and you go outside at midnight and shoot a gun in the air within a city. I don't call that negligent, I call that criminal. AD - discharging a firearm when you did not intend to. I did not agree with him, because if you follow the rules, your finger should never be on the trigger until you have identified your target and what is behind your target and you are ready to shoot. If your finger is on the trigger and you are not ready and you happen to pull the trigger you are negligent. A firearm discharging when cleaning a gun should never happen.  That is not an accident. That was most definitely an intended discharge.

Exactly!  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Finger on the trigger ND, finger off the trigger(gun malfunction) AD negative ghost rider....finger off the trigger safety on gun discharges striking person or object not meant to be shot equal negligent because of what you were sweeping with your muzzle....regardless of your finger being off the trigger.... my father gave me this advise.... treat guns like the liberals, guns are full of evil magic when you aren't looking they load themselves and shoot at little children anytime they see the opportunity .....i have lived by that and I'm sure it has helped.... good point...well made Arent we talking about the actual "Discharge" though, rather than the result"

I can agree with that...but i hate when i get "SWEPT" by a muzzle...I think besides assuming a gun is unloaded this is the number one safety violation I see.....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Finger on the trigger ND, finger off the trigger(gun malfunction) AD negative ghost rider....finger off the trigger safety on gun discharges striking person or object not meant to be shot equal negligent because of what you were sweeping with your muzzle....regardless of your finger being off the trigger.... my father gave me this advise.... treat guns like the liberals, guns are full of evil magic when you aren't looking they load themselves and shoot at little children anytime they see the opportunity .....i have lived by that and I'm sure it has helped.... good point...well made Arent we talking about the actual "Discharge" though, rather than the result" True but depending on the result of the AD ...this could prove negligance. If someone was shot due to a mechanical faliure....fine....but how did the weapon come to pointing at a person.

Taffy, I understand your point.

What I am saying is;   What is actually neligent?  Is it the DISCHARGE or is muzzel discipline?  Clearly, if you put a round into somone, other than what you intended, you are displaying negligent muzzel discipline.

I'm just saying.......Is it about the gun, or is it about the orientation of the gun?...The orientation is the fault of the user, obviously.

An accidental discharge is very rare.

If you drop a 1911 thirty feet onto concrete and it fires because two seperate safety features fail mechanically, that would be an accidental discharge. Dropping it would be up for debate, I suppose.

A particular model of bolt rifle killed a few people in seperate incidents because of a design flaw. Moving the safety switch to "off" would sometimes fire the weapon. That turned out badly for a few even though in at least one incident a vehicle was between the muzzle and the victim. You could argue muzzle awareness, but I think this type of malfunction would be an accidental discharge.

Most other "accidents" are Negligent actions performed by people who are not paying attention.

You are completely correct....but it is very rare to have an actual AD. Many claim it, but it always turns out to be negligence.

Quoted: Quoted: Recently I had a conversation with a game warden and he was telling me about a guy that had an AD in his tree stand. I argued that it was a ND. His definition. ND - It is New Years Eve and you go outside at midnight and shoot a gun in the air within a city. I don't call that negligent, I call that criminal. AD - discharging a firearm when you did not intend to. I did not agree with him, because if you follow the rules, your finger should never be on the trigger until you have identified your target and what is behind your target and you are ready to shoot. If your finger is on the trigger and you are not ready and you happen to pull the trigger you are negligent. A firearm discharging when cleaning a gun should never happen.  That is not an accident. That was most definitely an intended discharge.

Yep. I can kind of see what he means though, although you intentionally pulled the trigger expecting a round to be fired, your actions are dangerous and irresponsible (to put it mildly), so he's calling it "negligent." I agree that criminal is probably the best word for it.

Quoted: Yep. I can kind of see what he means though, although you intentionally pulled the trigger expecting a round to be fired, your actions are dangerous and irresponsible (to put it mildly), so he's calling it "negligent." I agree that criminal is probably the best word for it.

No, the person in question pointed the weapon in the air on New Year's Eve, and in effort to make celebratory noise, fired a round into the air, making it an intentional discharge.

He did not point the weapon in the air, and pull the trigger thinking the weapon was unloaded, if he did, the weapon fired through his negligence to clear the weapon.

I've never heard first hand of anyone having a true AD.

I wonder how many mechanical AD's were really caused by poor cleaning or maintenance of the weapon.

Quoted: I've never heard first hand of anyone having a true AD. I wonder how many mechanical AD's were really caused by poor cleaning or maintenance of the weapon.

Yep.

ADs are possible, but, RARE.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Finger on the trigger ND, finger off the trigger(gun malfunction) AD negative ghost rider....finger off the trigger safety on gun discharges striking person or object not meant to be shot equal negligent because of what you were sweeping with your muzzle....regardless of your finger being off the trigger.... my father gave me this advise.... treat guns like the liberals, guns are full of evil magic when you aren't looking they load themselves and shoot at little children anytime they see the opportunity .....i have lived by that and I'm sure it has helped.... good point...well made Arent we talking about the actual "Discharge" though, rather than the result" True but depending on the result of the AD ...this could prove negligance. If someone was shot due to a mechanical faliure....fine....but how did the weapon come to pointing at a person.   Taffy, I understand your point. What I am saying is;   What is actually neligent?  Is it the DISCHARGE or is muzzel discipline?  Clearly, if you put a round into somone, other than what you intended, you are displaying negligent muzzel discipline. I'm just saying.......Is it about the gun, or is it about the orientation of the gun?...The orientation is the fault of the user, obviously.

I'd say it was about the gun....

Just observe correct muzzle discipline and even then if you have a real rare AD ....no one will get hurt.

Quoted: You are completely correct....but it is very rare to have an actual AD. Many claim it, but it always turns out to be negligence.

Realistically, yeah....  But all mechanical things can and DO break, many times through NO fault of your own.

A firing pin in a clean and reasonably well maintained firearm, that breaks and jams into the bolt, causing a slamfire on the next round it strips from the magazine IS an accidental discharge.

There's so many reasons things fatigue and break and most times you GET no warning, nor COULD you possibly know it was about to fail. These things DO happen and quite regularly.  

Now if your gun is a filthy fucking mess because you never clean and maintain it and it goes off like that ?  There's absolutely NO question that it's a negligent discharge. Had you spent a little more time and not been lazy and CLEANED it, chances are, it wouldn't have happened.

Things break.  Guns break....  EVERYTHING breaks...  If you realistically couldn't have anticipated or predicted it happening, it's an accident, plain and simple.

Anytime it comes down to your own stupidity, laziness, ignorance, or any other lacking on your part, then you're negligent and there's not much to argue about, at all.