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11/20/2019 5:07:11 PM
Posted: 10/30/2009 9:31:18 PM EST
I've been thinking about how we are bringing Western values to Afghanistan, and how we have vastly improved the status of the Afghani women since our arrival. With the Taliban out of power (at least to the extent they held it before), women and girls are getting educated, entering the workforce and generally embracing Western values.

Agree or disagree, abortion is part of the "emancipated" woman's power: the ability to determine for themselves whether they will bring a pregnancy to term. I am not arguing for or against the ability, just stating it as the fact that it is in our culture.

That being said, how long before abortion becomes widespread in Afghanistan as a result of our Western influence? I'm sure it is practiced there now (ban or no, women have always managed to figure out some type of abortifacients to terminate a pregnancy throughout history); I guess I'm wondering what the hive mind thinks about it becoming mainstream....
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 9:34:22 PM EST
Prollly will never be wide spread.
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 9:37:13 PM EST
On what do you base your opinion?
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 9:44:16 PM EST
Abortion is legal in Afghanistan

There is also a Pro-Life group working in Afghanistan as a result.

In reality, in a 99% Muslim country, abortion will never become widespread. The laws set by the government have very little effect in the tribal areas, tribal tradition is far more carefully adhered to. As to what tribal traditions are in that regard, I can't say I know, though I suspect it would not be allowed.
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 9:48:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:
I've been thinking about how we are bringing Western values to Afghanistan, and how we have vastly improved the status of the Afghani women since our arrival. With the Taliban out of power (at least to the extent they held it before), women and girls are getting educated, entering the workforce and generally embracing Western values.

Agree or disagree, abortion is part of the "emancipated" woman's power: the ability to determine for themselves whether they will bring a pregnancy to term. I am not arguing for or against the ability, just stating it as the fact that it is in our culture.

That being said, how long before abortion becomes widespread in Afghanistan as a result of our Western influence? I'm sure it is practiced there now (ban or no, women have always managed to figure out some type of abortifacients to terminate a pregnancy throughout history); I guess I'm wondering what the hive mind thinks about it becoming mainstream....


This says a lot about our culture. None of which is good.
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 9:49:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:
I've been thinking about how we are bringing Western values to Afghanistan, and how we have vastly improved the status of the Afghani women since our arrival. With the Taliban out of power (at least to the extent they held it before), women and girls are getting educated, entering the workforce and generally embracing Western values.


Says who...?



Link Posted: 10/30/2009 9:54:07 PM EST
Well, for starters, in the August elections, two women ran for president, five sought the vice presidency, and some 300 women ran for election to provincial councils. Are you really arguing that Afghani women have NOT been embracing Western values since the removal of the Taliban?
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 9:59:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/30/2009 10:00:52 PM EST by Db8sGr8]
I don't see it becoming widespread there because I honestly don't see A-stan becoming westernized. They're too fragmented to develop that mentality on a large scale, and frankly, giving a woman who has engaged in sex an "out" is not going to fly. It removes the ability of religious and tribal leaders to reinforce their authority by making an example of her. Why give her an out when you can stone them both to death? Kill two birds with one stone so to speak? Perhaps I'm biased.
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 10:05:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:
Well, for starters, in the August elections, two women ran for president, five sought the vice presidency, and some 300 women ran for election to provincial councils. Are you really arguing that Afghani women have NOT been embracing Western values since the removal of the Taliban?



If you seriously think that Afghani women are rapidly "westernizing" then you are delusional.
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 10:10:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By STG77:
Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:
Well, for starters, in the August elections, two women ran for president, five sought the vice presidency, and some 300 women ran for election to provincial councils. Are you really arguing that Afghani women have NOT been embracing Western values since the removal of the Taliban?



If you seriously think that Afghani women are rapidly "westernizing" then you are delusional.


It depends entirely on which Afghani women you're talking about.

Many of them are, and have been, very westernized since the '70s.

Many of them live under tribal law.
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 10:10:43 PM EST
I don't recall saying anything about the change being "rapid"; just that it is happening.
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 10:30:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:
Well, for starters, in the August elections, two women ran for president, five sought the vice presidency, and some 300 women ran for election to provincial councils. Are you really arguing that Afghani women have NOT been embracing Western values since the removal of the Taliban?


Whooopdy-Do
Their elections are a sham... You think for one minute that if some one was elected that the US didn't want elecetd they'd be allowed to actually take office...?
A-Stan may have started out as something else.. who knows, but now it's about maintaining a presense in that part of the world.

You watch.... One day sooner or later you'll see the Taliban in "partnership" running that country... as long as it suites the west at the time.


Link Posted: 10/30/2009 10:59:37 PM EST
Why do we need to bring more savagery and killing to Afghanistan? Don't they already have enough?
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 11:00:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By joe-bananas:
Why do we need to bring more savagery and killing to Afghanistan? Don't they already have enough?


You raise a very good point...
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 11:04:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By joe-bananas:
Why do we need to bring more savagery and killing to Afghanistan? Don't they already have enough?

The issue of whether there needs to be abortion isn't the one I'm raising; merely if the hivemind sees it becoming prevalent with the advent of Western culture.
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 3:04:01 AM EST
In most areas, you have to travel miles to find a doctor competent enough to do something as simple as suturing a cut or diagnosing an infection. Think Tombstone Arizona circa 1850. I doubt anyone will be rushing in to get an abortion from them anytime soon.
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 4:59:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:

Originally Posted By joe-bananas:
Why do we need to bring more savagery and killing to Afghanistan? Don't they already have enough?

The issue of whether there needs to be abortion isn't the one I'm raising; merely if the hivemind sees it becoming prevalent with the advent of Western culture.


I think you're operating under the flawed assumption that abortion is not a widely practiced thing outside westernized society.

I think what you'd actually find if you looked into it is that there are a lot of places we'd consider undeveloped or somehow more repressed culturally where abortion is a common and accepted thing. In a lot of these places though, dying from botched abortions is also a common and accepted thing.

I think the frequency of abortion in these places will increase as safety and efficacy increase. I think that as safety concerns are marginalized, the ongoing debate over abortion in their cultures will take an interesting turn just as it has in ours.
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 5:00:59 AM EST

Guess America didn't become westernized till 1973. The USSR ruled Afganistan for a number of years and that was a pretty pro-abortion country to. Any reluctance to embrace abortion probably has less to do with culture then just having a memory. One of the atrocities reported in the USSR days in Afganistan was forced abortion with bayonet.
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 5:12:56 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 9:27:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:


I think you're operating under the flawed assumption that abortion is not a widely practiced thing outside westernized society.

I think what you'd actually find if you looked into it is that there are a lot of places we'd consider undeveloped or somehow more repressed culturally where abortion is a common and accepted thing. In a lot of these places though, dying from botched abortions is also a common and accepted thing.

I think the frequency of abortion in these places will increase as safety and efficacy increase. I think that as safety concerns are marginalized, the ongoing debate over abortion in their cultures will take an interesting turn just as it has in ours.

Actually, I'm not assuming that at all, in fact I mention in my original post that I am certain they were occurring even under the repressive Taliban, who outlawed it. My thoughts mirrored yours in your final paragraph, which is why I threw it out for discussion.
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 9:41:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 9:44:36 AM EST
Yeah their infant mortality rate is one of the highest in the world, but so is their birth rate. I read that the women each have on average almost 7 pregnancies.
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 10:46:17 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 10:57:30 AM EST
The problem I see is that just because the country needs a lot of births doesn't mean that the women want to have the children. If they are given a choice, would they choose to have them?
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 11:03:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 11:07:21 AM EST
But that's my point. Prior to our involvement there, it would be a moot point, but with our Western influence, doesn't that change the expectation of what is acceptable?
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 11:17:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 11:24:56 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 11:32:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:
Yeah their infant mortality rate is one of the highest in the world, but so is their birth rate. I read that the women each have on average almost 7 pregnancies.


That's fairly common in the third world.
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 11:33:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
Before I can comment, I need to understand the discussion. Women putting on shoes, and making themselves useful to society as something other than unpaid housekeepers and baby machines is a bad thing, and that uppity women who work outside of the home, and participate in politics are prone to becoming whores and abortion addicted?

That is sure what it sounds like the basis of this discussion is. From what I have read so far it sounds like many here believe that not only are western values wrong, but that the world is a better place with the Taliban in Afghanistan making sure that the women weren't going around showing people their hair or holding hands with anything other than a brother or first cousin.




Where did you dream that up from?
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 11:34:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2009 11:35:03 AM EST by Molon-Labe]

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
Before I can comment, I need to understand the discussion. Women putting on shoes, and making themselves useful to society as something other than unpaid housekeepers and baby machines is a bad thing, and that uppity women who work outside of the home, and participate in politics are prone to becoming whores and abortion addicted?

That is sure what it sounds like the basis of this discussion is. From what I have read so far it sounds like many here believe that not only are western values wrong, but that the world is a better place with the Taliban in Afghanistan making sure that the women weren't going around showing people their hair or holding hands with anything other than a brother or first cousin.

Um, I'm not sure how you got that from the discussion. Nowhere was there any mention of women being whores, or even having multiple partners. Now was addiction to abortion mentioned; merely that the Western influence may make it a more acceptable choice for women that had no freedom whatsoever under the repressive Taliban regime.
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 11:36:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zhukov:


No. It takes more than a few troops to change that. How much of an influence do you think our soldiers have? Iraq is much more civilized, has been exposed to many more Western values. How widespread do you think abortion is there?
I honestly don't know, Zhuk. I do know that Iraq was much more westernized and secular than Afghanistan prior to our arrival, so the Western influence wouldn't be as marked a change in that country as it could be in Afghanistan.

Link Posted: 10/31/2009 11:45:48 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 11:57:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/31/2009 11:57:56 AM EST by ORIGINAL-Waterdog]
Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:
I've been thinking about how we are bringing Western values to Afghanistan, and how we have vastly improved the status of the Afghani women since our arrival. With the Taliban out of power (at least to the extent they held it before), women and girls are getting educated, entering the workforce and generally embracing Western values.

Agree or disagree, abortion is part of the "emancipated" woman's power: the ability to determine for themselves whether they will bring a pregnancy to term. I am not arguing for or against the ability, just stating it as the fact that it is in our culture.

That being said, how long before abortion becomes widespread in Afghanistan as a result of our Western influence? I'm sure it is practiced there now (ban or no, women have always managed to figure out some type of abortifacients to terminate a pregnancy throughout history); I guess I'm wondering what the hive mind thinks about it becoming mainstream....


Abortion is murder, teaching it or teaching more efficient ways of doing it, is evil.
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 1:05:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By ORIGINAL-Waterdog:
Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:
I've been thinking about how we are bringing Western values to Afghanistan, and how we have vastly improved the status of the Afghani women since our arrival. With the Taliban out of power (at least to the extent they held it before), women and girls are getting educated, entering the workforce and generally embracing Western values.

Agree or disagree, abortion is part of the "emancipated" woman's power: the ability to determine for themselves whether they will bring a pregnancy to term. I am not arguing for or against the ability, just stating it as the fact that it is in our culture.

That being said, how long before abortion becomes widespread in Afghanistan as a result of our Western influence? I'm sure it is practiced there now (ban or no, women have always managed to figure out some type of abortifacients to terminate a pregnancy throughout history); I guess I'm wondering what the hive mind thinks about it becoming mainstream....


Abortion is murder, teaching it or teaching more efficient ways of doing it, is evil.


Or, to put it a different way, there is neither a shortage of people who enjoy killing babies, nor a shortage of people who are willing to promote killing babies as a normal behavior.
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 1:41:44 PM EST
As has been said, the women are still muslim. They aren't gonna be whoring it up and dumping the baby.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 4:39:03 PM EST
To be blunt: Abortion is nothing new. It is not a western improvisation. Killing children has been a pastime since Biblical times at least –– the Caananites were destroyed, in part because they offered up their firstborn children to Ba'al –– for those who don't know what that entailed, you should do some research. It will turn your stomach –– but it's really no worse than the barbaric practices used today to kill children up to the moment they're born.

I would argue that availability of contraception, proper pre-natal care (and all other medical care), western ideas (like not forcing children into arranged marriages or using them as chattel), are far more important indicators of the "westernization" of a society than whether or not abortion on demand is available so they can sacrifice their children on the altar of convenience.
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 4:55:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:

Originally Posted By joe-bananas:
Why do we need to bring more savagery and killing to Afghanistan? Don't they already have enough?

The issue of whether there needs to be abortion isn't the one I'm raising; merely if the hivemind sees it becoming prevalent with the advent of Western culture.


I think you're operating under the flawed assumption that abortion is not a widely practiced thing outside westernized society.

I think what you'd actually find if you looked into it is that there are a lot of places we'd consider undeveloped or somehow more repressed culturally where abortion is a common and accepted thing. In a lot of these places though, dying from botched abortions is also a common and accepted thing.


I think the frequency of abortion in these places will increase as safety and efficacy increase. I think that as safety concerns are marginalized, the ongoing debate over abortion in their cultures will take an interesting turn just as it has in ours.


+1

China is an example.
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 4:58:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:

I think you're operating under the flawed assumption that abortion is not a widely practiced thing outside westernized society.

I think what you'd actually find if you looked into it is that there are a lot of places we'd consider undeveloped or somehow more repressed culturally where abortion is a common and accepted thing. In a lot of these places though, dying from botched abortions is also a common and accepted thing.


I think the frequency of abortion in these places will increase as safety and efficacy increase. I think that as safety concerns are marginalized, the ongoing debate over abortion in their cultures will take an interesting turn just as it has in ours.

+1

China is an example.

The difference between China and Afghanistan is that abortion is mandatory in China, and outlawed in Afghanistan...or at least it WAS, under the Taliban.

Link Posted: 10/31/2009 5:06:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:

Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:

I think you're operating under the flawed assumption that abortion is not a widely practiced thing outside westernized society.

I think what you'd actually find if you looked into it is that there are a lot of places we'd consider undeveloped or somehow more repressed culturally where abortion is a common and accepted thing. In a lot of these places though, dying from botched abortions is also a common and accepted thing.


I think the frequency of abortion in these places will increase as safety and efficacy increase. I think that as safety concerns are marginalized, the ongoing debate over abortion in their cultures will take an interesting turn just as it has in ours.

+1

China is an example.

The difference between China and Afghanistan is that abortion is mandatory in China, and outlawed in Afghanistan...or at least it WAS, under the Taliban.



The Taliban only ruled Afghanistan from 1996 to 2001. Afghani culture is not truly Islamic, and has been far more westernized in some places (while completely tribal across the majority of the country, even under Taliban rule) than most understand.
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 9:58:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By joshki:
To be blunt: Abortion is nothing new. It is not a western improvisation. Killing children has been a pastime since Biblical times at least –– the Caananites were destroyed, in part because they offered up their firstborn children to Ba'al –– for those who don't know what that entailed, you should do some research. It will turn your stomach –– but it's really no worse than the barbaric practices used today to kill children up to the moment they're born.

I would argue that availability of contraception, proper pre-natal care (and all other medical care), western ideas (like not forcing children into arranged marriages or using them as chattel), are far more important indicators of the "westernization" of a society than whether or not abortion on demand is available so they can sacrifice their children on the altar of convenience.

I absolutely agree with the second half of your post in that there are more important indicators of Westernization: those don't tend to spark the flames of debate though.

I do have a question for you regarding the Canaanites. Were they destroyed because they were offering up their firstborn, or because they were offering them to Ba'al? Wasn't Isaac the firstborn of Abraham, and wasn't Abraham willing to sacrifice him because he thought that was God's wish? I know the angel stopped him, but the point is that he was willing to do it, which would argue that it was the choice of god chosen by the Canaanites that was the problem...
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 10:15:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:

Originally Posted By joshki:
To be blunt: Abortion is nothing new. It is not a western improvisation. Killing children has been a pastime since Biblical times at least –– the Caananites were destroyed, in part because they offered up their firstborn children to Ba'al –– for those who don't know what that entailed, you should do some research. It will turn your stomach –– but it's really no worse than the barbaric practices used today to kill children up to the moment they're born.

I would argue that availability of contraception, proper pre-natal care (and all other medical care), western ideas (like not forcing children into arranged marriages or using them as chattel), are far more important indicators of the "westernization" of a society than whether or not abortion on demand is available so they can sacrifice their children on the altar of convenience.

I absolutely agree with the second half of your post in that there are more important indicators of Westernization: those don't tend to spark the flames of debate though.

I do have a question for you regarding the Canaanites. Were they destroyed because they were offering up their firstborn, or because they were offering them to Ba'al? Wasn't Isaac the firstborn of Abraham, and wasn't Abraham willing to sacrifice him because he thought that was God's wish? I know the angel stopped him, but the point is that he was willing to do it, which would argue that it was the choice of god chosen by the Canaanites that was the problem...


Yeah –– Imagine that, you sparking debate?

The reason the Caananites were destroyed is manyfold, but the main reason was that they were wicked beyond all redemption in God's eyes. The sacrifice of their firstborns to Ba'al was one symptom of that wickedness. Ba'al was, of course, a false god, and worship of any other god was prohibited in the ten commandments.

The story of Isaac and Abraham is a complicated story. God was testing Abraham, not actually planning to have him kill his child. The point was that he was willing to give up that which he treasured most for God, and God provided a replacement for him, instead of allowing the planned sacrifice to occur. It's an allegorical reference to the future, where God sent Jesus to pay for our sins. I believe that Abraham KNEW God would not allow him to kill his son (or if he did, he would raise him from the dead) –– God had already made clear to him his plan for Isaac and his dynasty. For God to actually allow Isaac to be harmed would violate his word –– which God cannot do. See Hebrews 11:17-19: "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called," concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense."

Link Posted: 10/31/2009 10:17:40 PM EST
this makes me re-evaluate my thoughts about the thread the other day about legalizing abortion's impact on crime rates...
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 2:21:40 AM EST
The Doc. performing them will, unfortunatly, be blown up.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 2:53:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:
Agree or disagree, abortion is part of the "emancipated" woman's power: the ability to determine for themselves whether they will bring a pregnancy to term. .

The not being forced to Fuck part is enough emancipation..... The being able to legally kill your children part has been around for longer and is a part of cultures world wide..... look at China as a form of this....
Link Posted: 11/2/2009 8:37:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2009 8:37:39 AM EST by Molon-Labe]

Originally Posted By SouthEndXGF:
this makes me re-evaluate my thoughts about the thread the other day about legalizing abortion's impact on crime rates...

What were your thoughts in that thread and to what new conclusion did you arrive?
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