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Posted: 8/24/2004 11:28:59 PM EST
This was just started on another board. There are those here that read every article and thread on the political happenings that I am sure could word a rebutale about this better than I.

"Here's the big one. John O'Neil was caught in a lie about John Kerry in Cambodia. He has said several times that John Kerry is lying about being in Cambodia because neither he (Kerry) nor any other soldier could have been in Cambodia. But O'Neil was recorded in a conversation with Richard Nixon saying that "I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water." and then confirms that it was while being in a Swift boat.

So, either O'Neil was lying about Kerry being in Cambodia or he was lying about himself being in Cambodia to Nixon. Either way, he is a liar.

The Nixon tapes: the gift that keeps on giving.

But he isn't the one one who is flat-out lying or not being fully truthful:

George Elliot, who says that John Kerry has not been honest about his service in Vietnam wasn't saying the same thing earlier. Elliot campaigned for Kerry's Senate reelection in 1996. In 1969, he worte in a report that Kerry was unsurpassed. Who is the one not being honest?

Louis Letson claims that John Kerry shouldn't have received his Purple Heart because he treated him. Although, according to military records Dr. Letson did not treat Kerry (it was a J. C. Carreon). I'll give Letson the benefit of the doubt that maybe he had some medical contact with Kerry and that Carreon was the doctor that signed off on the medical report (which contradicts what Letson says anyway, but nonetheless). So how exactlly does someone remember the specifics of one patient out of probablly hundreds if not more treated, more than thirty years later, if the injuries were so insignificant as what Letson claims?

Van O'Dell says that John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star, which was for saving James Rassmann, who was thrown into the water by an explosion, while taking hostile enemy fire. Van O'Dell was not a crewmate of John Kerry. Navy records indicate that at least one of the boats with Kerry's were hit by enemy fire, not to mention the eyewitness accounts of those who were there, including the man who Kerry saved.

Roy Hoffman, who says that John Kerry has not been honest has no first-hand knowledge of anything that he claims that Kerry hasn't been honest about by his own admission.

Anyone still think these people have any credibility? "

S.O.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:44:48 PM EST
I'm with you SorryOfficer, these swiftys remind me a LOT of the tactics used against Mcain in the last election. When the GOP did a hatchet-job on Mcain in 2000, I left the party and now vote independent. I'm not the biggest fan of Kerry OR Bush, and since NY is not a swing state in this election, I'll be using my vote to endorse the craziest SOB out there I can find, just to show the need for more political divergence.

I may even vote for Bo Gritz or some other tinfoil hat wearing loonie!

In reality, I'll probably write in Dennis Kucinich, McCain, or maybe Nader or Dean.

These swifties are really full of it. I can't believe how they're bankrolled by the GOP and STILL get away with it.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 11:52:02 PM EST
Uuhhhhhh.....I just posted this from another site. I didn't say I agreed with it. I just wanted others takes on it.

BTW, it was recently reported that over 90% of the 527 money goes to Lib groups with the remainimg 10% or so to GOP 527s, yet they are handing the others their collective asses.

S.O.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:14:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By Samhain44:

These swifties are really full of it. I can't believe how they're bankrolled by the GOP and STILL get away with it.




Prove it or STFU you loser.


And don't bother voting if you're just going to waste it...you don't deserve the right to do so.

SGatr15
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:30:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 12:35:04 AM EST by Samhain44]
sgtar,

Want to start cursing at me, asshat? How's this for proof:

A return filed with the Internal Revenue Service by SBVT states that between April 23, when it was formed, and June 30 it had raised $158,750. Of this amount Bob Perry, described by the Houston Chronicle last year as the single largest Texas donor to the Republican Party, contributed $100,000. O’Neill and Harlan Crow, the owner of Crow Realty Investors, both contributed $25,000.

Perry is described in media reports as a close friend of both Republican Karl Rove and John O'Neill.

The three contributors thus accounted for over 94% of the income reported to the IRS. (Another eight donors accounted for the remainder of the groups income).

Check this website, it's research is very well documented - Click HERE

And what about Ken Kordier, who had to RESIGN from Bush's re-election campaign, after appearing on a SBVT ad?

BTW, you donkey raping shit eater, I'll use my vote on ANY DAMN PERSON I WANT. Last time I checked, this was AMERICA, where you can vote for anyone you like. Also, if you understood anything about how the political process actually worked, you'd realize that 3rd party votes are an important step in gaining momentum to garner press recognition and matching funds for the next race. New York has 33 ELECTORAL VOTES, which are ALL going to Kerry due to the retarted method of counting our votes under the Electoral College, since I could sit here in NY and vote for Bush and change NOTHING, voting for another person IS monitored by LOTS of different people who will use that info to forcast trends in voting and persuade media outlets to let in more opinions rather than just 2, or sometimes 1.

Maybe YOU are the one that shouln't be able to vote you moron, since you don't know what the HELL you're talking about!
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:05:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 1:12:48 AM EST by A-nus]

Originally Posted By Samhain44:
New York has 33 ELECTORAL VOTES, which are ALL going to Kerry due to the retarted method of counting our votes under the Electoral College, since I could sit here in NY and vote for Bush and change NOTHING, voting for another person IS monitored by LOTS of different people who will use that info to forcast trends in voting and persuade media outlets to let in more opinions rather than just 2, or sometimes 1.




After the Dems destroy the city next week, there is a good chance there will be some voter back lash aginst the libral trash that just fucked up our city, especialy in light of how well the righties behaved during their pathetic convention. EVERY state is close and in play EVEN California, Either side is STUPID to take any state for granted.

If I were Bush i would be campaining HARD in California, to the point that it would cause Kerry to have to waste money campaining in a state he should win.


As for the swifties Their first add was good and i believe them 100% over Kerry (because Kerry hasn't told the truth about any thing) but the second add is DEVESTATING to John John, they used Kerry's own sworn testamony aginst him, Brilliant!!! And what that chicken shit back stabbing bastard did to get out of NAM and what he did when he got back WAS TREASON and he should hang from a tree for that.[

WHY THE LONG FACE JOHN?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:18:13 AM EST
First off there is a VERY good chance GWB takes NYC IMHO.

Second, if you so strongly believe in 3rd partioes then WTF would you vote Nader like you originally stated?


Facts...3rd parties will ALWAYS be useless until they start garning support on a smaller scale like dog catcher.


You can be pissed off all you want over GWB for the little issues but in the big issues he is the ONLY choice for conservatives.

Voting for a 3rd party that has NO CHANCE OF WINNING is a wasted vote since it does NOTHING for that party.


Period.


Sgtar15
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:23:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By Samhain44:
sgtar,

How's this for proof:

A return filed with the Internal Revenue Service by SBVT states that between April 23, when it was formed, and June 30 it had raised $158,750. Of this amount Bob Perry, described by the Houston Chronicle last year as the single largest Texas donor to the Republican Party, contributed $100,000. O’Neill and Harlan Crow, the owner of Crow Realty Investors, both contributed $25,000.



Actually, it sucks as proof. Since when is a political contributor limited to only supporting a single organization. I guess then based on your 'proof' that the democratic party controls Planned Parenthood since many of their major contributors also contribute to the democratic party. Or are you saying that the only ones who should be allowed to contribute to any organization are not allowed to donate to a political party, otherwise it will be assumed the political party controls the organizations to which you choose to donate.

Nothing has been proved, just that a few individuals and companies support both the republican party and the SBVT, not that there is a connection between the two.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:57:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By SorryOciffer:
Roy Hoffman, who says that John Kerry has not been honest has no first-hand knowledge of anything that he claims that Kerry hasn't been honest about by his own admission.



Hoffman trusts what other men he trusts have told him. I also trust what people I trust tell me, and don't trust what lying opportunists like Kerry tell me.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:15:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By SorryOciffer:
"Here's the big one. John O'Neil was caught in a lie about John Kerry in Cambodia. He has said several times that John Kerry is lying about being in Cambodia because neither he (Kerry) nor any other soldier could have been in Cambodia. But O'Neil was recorded in a conversation with Richard Nixon saying that "I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water." and then confirms that it was while being in a Swift boat.

So, either O'Neil was lying about Kerry being in Cambodia or he was lying about himself being in Cambodia to Nixon. Either way, he is a liar.



Ask to see the source material because I'm sure he is full of shit or quoting out of context based on the other examples you give. In any case, whether or not O'Neil was in Cambodia has absolutely no bearing on whether John Kerry was. Kerry has said he spent Christmas in Cambodia on numerous documented occasions (newspaper interviews, Senate floor, Congressional Record). However, in his book he says he spent it at base and now his own campaign has acknowledged he wasn't in Cambodia during the time questioned. His entire chain of command says that they never ordered Kerry into Cambodia and would have prosecuted him if he had gone. If Kerry wants to prove he was there, all he has to do is authorize the release of ALL of his naval records. So far he has authorized release of SIX pages out of over 100 in his file according to the Navy.


George Elliot, who says that John Kerry has not been honest about his service in Vietnam wasn't saying the same thing earlier. Elliot campaigned for Kerry's Senate reelection in 1996. In 1969, he worte in a report that Kerry was unsurpassed. Who is the one not being honest?


Quoting out of context. Elliot never campaigned for Kerry, he simply defended Kerry when William Weld accused him of a war crime for shooting the RPG guy in the back. Elliot said this wasn't a war crime, that Swiftees didn't commit war crimes and that is the same thing he is saying now. As for fitrep inflation, nothing shocking about that. Besides that partial quote leaves a lot to be desired, "unsurpassed" in what?


Louis Letson claims that John Kerry shouldn't have received his Purple Heart because he treated him. Although, according to military records Dr. Letson did not treat Kerry (it was a J. C. Carreon). I'll give Letson the benefit of the doubt that maybe he had some medical contact with Kerry and that Carreon was the doctor that signed off on the medical report (which contradicts what Letson says anyway, but nonetheless). So how exactlly does someone remember the specifics of one patient out of probablly hundreds if not more treated, more than thirty years later, if the injuries were so insignificant as what Letson claims?


Carreon was not a doctor. He was an enlisted corpsman working for Dr. Letson (similar to a nurse or physician's assistant in civilian life). He signed the report and considering the nature of the wound probably did most of the work as I'm sure a doctor isn't necessary to apply a bandaid. The unit Kerry was in consisted of a few hundred men total and fewer officers. Of those, only one became a minor celebrity by 1971 for opposing the war in Vietnam, so why is it a big shock that the doctor who treated him two years earlier would remember it?


Van O'Dell says that John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star, which was for saving James Rassmann, who was thrown into the water by an explosion, while taking hostile enemy fire. Van O'Dell was not a crewmate of John Kerry. Navy records indicate that at least one of the boats with Kerry's were hit by enemy fire, not to mention the eyewitness accounts of those who were there, including the man who Kerry saved.


Van O'Dell was on a boat next to Kerry's less than 75 yards away. The one boat that was "hit by enemy fire" was the number three boat that hit an underwater mine. Recovery efforts to save that boat and crew went on for over 90 minutes. Read the report Kerry submitted of the incident and then read the Swift boat vets description of the same incident. Read the stories of the people who support Kerry for the same incident - very telling discrepancies.


Roy Hoffman, who says that John Kerry has not been honest has no first-hand knowledge of anything that he claims that Kerry hasn't been honest about by his own admission.


No idea about this one; but given the track record above I wouldn't be surprised to find out he was leaving out important info.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:40:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Samhain44:
How's this for proof:

A return filed with the Internal Revenue Service by SBVT states that between April 23, when it was formed, and June 30 it had raised $158,750. Of this amount Bob Perry, described by the Houston Chronicle last year as the single largest Texas donor to the Republican Party, contributed $100,000. O’Neill and Harlan Crow, the owner of Crow Realty Investors, both contributed $25,000.

Perry is described in media reports as a close friend of both Republican Karl Rove and John O'Neill.

The three contributors thus accounted for over 94% of the income reported to the IRS. (Another eight donors accounted for the remainder of the groups income).

Check this website, it's research is very well documented - Click HERE



It doesn't prove shit. How do private donations from individuals equal "GOP bankrolling"? Moron.

Kirk
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:42:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 6:42:18 AM EST by -Absolut-]

Originally Posted By Samhain44:
I'm with you SorryOfficer, these swiftys remind me a LOT of the tactics used against Mcain in the last election. When the GOP did a hatchet-job on Mcain in 2000, I left the party and now vote independent. I'm not the biggest fan of Kerry OR Bush, and since NY is not a swing state in this election, I'll be using my vote to endorse the craziest SOB out there I can find, just to show the need for more political divergence.

I may even vote for Bo Gritz or some other tinfoil hat wearing loonie!

In reality, I'll probably write in Dennis Kucinich, McCain, or maybe Nader or Dean.

These swifties are really full of it. I can't believe how they're bankrolled by the GOP and STILL get away with it.


Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:51:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 6:52:25 AM EST by hepcat85]

Originally Posted By Samhain44:

I may even vote for Bo Gritz or some other tinfoil hat wearing loonie!

In reality, I'll probably write in Dennis Kucinich, McCain, or maybe Nader or Dean.




If you put McCain in a room with Dean, we'd have a steel cage death match.

On election Day, I think you should put on a fresh tin foil hat, march down to your polling place and vote for [StealthVoteForW]Mr. Kucinich[/StealthVoteForW]

The hon. congressman from Ohio pleading his case to join the recently revived 70's super group "The Village People"


Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:02:50 AM EST



C. Christmas In Cambodia



If there is a consistent[1] repeated story by John Kerry about his Vietnam experience, it is his story about how he and his boat spent Christmas Eve and Christmas of 1968 illegally present in Cambodia and, listening to President Nixon's contrary assurances, developed "a deep mistrust of U.S. government pronouncements." See Exhibit 24, Kranish book, p. 84. The point of his story was that his government and his commanders were lying about Kerry's presence in Cambodia on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. During a critical debate on the floor of the United States Senate on March 27, 1986, Senator John Kerry said:



Mr. President, I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia.



I have that memory which is seared ‑‑ seared ‑‑ in me . . . .



Exhibit 25, Congressional Record ‑ Senate of March 27, 1986, page 3594.



By way of further example, Kerry wrote an article for the Boston Herald on October 14, 1979:



"I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real."



See Exhibit 26.



The Christmas in Cambodia story of John Kerry was repeated as recently as July 7, 2004 by Michael Kranish, a principal biographer of Kerry from The Boston Globe. On the Hannity & Colmes television show, Kranish indicated that Kerry's Christmas in Cambodia was a critical turning point in Kerry's life.



The story is a total preposterous fabrication by Kerry. Exhibit 8 is an affidavit by the Commander of the Swift boats in Vietnam, Admiral Roy Hoffmann, stating that Kerry's claim to be in Cambodia for Christmas Eve and Christmas of 1968 is a total lie. If necessary, similar affidavits are available from the entire chain of command. In reality, Kerry was at Sa Dec ‑‑ easily locatable on any map more than fifty miles from Cambodia. Kerry himself inadvertently admits that he was in Sa Dec for Christmas Eve and Christmas and not in Cambodia, as he had stated for so many years on the Senate Floor, in the newspapers, and elsewhere. Exhibit 27, Tour, pp. 213‑219. Sa Dec is hardly "close" to the Cambodian border. In reality, far from being ordered secretly to Cambodia, Kerry spent a pleasant night at Sa Dec with "visions of sugar plums" dancing in his head. Exhibit 27, p. 219. At Sa Dec where the Swift boat patrol area ended, there were many miles of other boats (PBR's) leading to the Cambodian border. There were also gunboats on the border to prevent any crossing. If Kerry tried to get through, he would have been arrested. Obviously, Kerry has hardly been honest about his service in Vietnam.



Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:12:24 AM EST
Jesus H Christ, some of you guys are SO fucking dumb.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:21:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 8:22:43 AM EST by Leisure_Shoot]

Originally Posted By Samhain44:
A return filed with the Internal Revenue Service by SBVT states that between April 23, when it was formed, and June 30 it had raised $158,750. Of this amount Bob Perry, described by the Houston Chronicle last year as the single largest Texas donor to the Republican Party, contributed $100,000. O’Neill and Harlan Crow, the owner of Crow Realty Investors, both contributed $25,000.

Perry is described in media reports as a close friend of both Republican Karl Rove and John O'Neill.

The three contributors thus accounted for over 94% of the income reported to the IRS. (Another eight donors accounted for the remainder of the groups income).

Check this website, it's research is very well documented - Click HERE

And what about Ken Kordier, who had to RESIGN from Bush's re-election campaign, after appearing on a SBVT ad?



Well who do you think would support these guys?
The Kennedy's?
Tom Hanks?
Rosie O'Donnel?
Jimmy Carter?
So some one sends them money? Big Fucking deal.
It stands to reason a supporter of Bush would be more likely to support these guys.

Just for your stupid comment to Sgtar15, I am going to donate $50 to the swiftboat vets.

BTW, don't throw away your vote.
It's a slap in the face to the founding fathers and all who served so you can vote.
If you are supportive of this country, you must realize there is ONE issue this election.
It is not Vietnam service, or taxes, or gas prices, or lesbians getting married, or abortion.
It is terrorism and the survical of this country, and even the world.
Militant Islam, perhaps Islam in general, is a plague that will sweep the world if not put down.
With extreme Prejudice.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:43:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Samhain44:


A return filed with the Internal Revenue Service by SBVT states that between April 23, when it was formed, and June 30 it had raised $158,750. Of this amount Bob Perry, described by the Houston Chronicle last year as the single largest Texas donor to the Republican Party, contributed $100,000. O’Neill and Harlan Crow, the owner of Crow Realty Investors, both contributed $25,000.



Oh no $100,000!

Progressive Insurance executive Peter Lewis, alone has given more than $14 million to anti-Bush 527 groups, according to an analysis by the non-partisan Center for Responsive politics in Washington.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:46:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By Samhain44:
I'm with you SorryOfficer, these swiftys remind me a LOT of the tactics used against Mcain in the last election. When the GOP did a hatchet-job on Mcain in 2000, I left the party and now vote independent. I'm not the biggest fan of Kerry OR Bush, and since NY is not a swing state in this election, I'll be using my vote to endorse the craziest SOB out there I can find, just to show the need for more political divergence.

I may even vote for Bo Gritz or some other tinfoil hat wearing loonie!

In reality, I'll probably write in Dennis Kucinich, McCain, or maybe Nader or Dean.

These swifties are really full of it. I can't believe how they're bankrolled by the GOP and STILL get away with it.

samhain, i am just curious,do you have any problem with the 63 million spent by 527's on behalf of the dems?there are some obvious connections between them.not to mention michael morres fantasy movie.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:49:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By jmt1271:

Originally Posted By Samhain44:
I'm with you SorryOfficer, these swiftys remind me a LOT of the tactics used against Mcain in the last election. When the GOP did a hatchet-job on Mcain in 2000, I left the party and now vote independent. I'm not the biggest fan of Kerry OR Bush, and since NY is not a swing state in this election, I'll be using my vote to endorse the craziest SOB out there I can find, just to show the need for more political divergence.

I may even vote for Bo Gritz or some other tinfoil hat wearing loonie!

In reality, I'll probably write in Dennis Kucinich, McCain, or maybe Nader or Dean.

These swifties are really full of it. I can't believe how they're bankrolled by the GOP and STILL get away with it.

samhain, i am just curious,do you have any problem with the 63 million spent by 527's on behalf of the dems?there are some obvious connections between them.not to mention michael morres fantasy movie.

damn, i gotta remember to read all the posts before replying.you guys have sufficently hammered the idiot.dont get a big head,though,they all regurgitate the same easily refutable facts.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:53:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Samhain44:
I'm with you SorryOfficer, these swiftys remind me a LOT of the tactics used against Mcain in the last election. When the GOP did a hatchet-job on Mcain in 2000, I left the party and now vote independent. I'm not the biggest fan of Kerry OR Bush, and since NY is not a swing state in this election, I'll be using my vote to endorse the craziest SOB out there I can find, just to show the need for more political divergence.

I may even vote for Bo Gritz or some other tinfoil hat wearing loonie!

In reality, I'll probably write in Dennis Kucinich, McCain, or maybe Nader or Dean.

These swifties are really full of it. I can't believe how they're bankrolled by the GOP and STILL get away with it.



Gee, to which hatchet job related to McCain's service are you referring?

Fuckin' liar! You are voting for Kerry, otherwise you would not be saying the switfties are full of it. Are you a vet?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:56:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:56:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By Samhain44:
Jesus H Christ, some of you guys are SO fucking dumb.



This is from an expert on stupidity, so he should know.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:00:57 PM EST
All I know for a fact is that John Kerry recieved three purple hearts, a bronze star and didn't he get a silver star. All of this in four months and he doesn't even have a scratch.

Bob Dole, whose military service has never been questioned, was wounded during the Italien campaign of WWII and doesn't have the use of one of his arms. He got one purple heart.

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:14:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 5:34:17 PM EST by Da_Bunny]

Originally Posted By Samhain44:
These swifties are really full of it. I can't believe how they're bankrolled by the GOP and STILL get away with it.



They got one thing right. Kerry is a lying weasel. He was in Vietnam for 4 1/2 months, stuck on a swift boat, but somehow managed to gather evidence that all the rest of us are war criminals. Anybody who was stationed along the border wandered into Cambodia now and then. There was no fence, there was no GPS, there was no way to know until you got back to base and checked the maps. The maps I carried in the field didn't have the border marked on them. I'm certain that Kerry is a two-faced, back-stabbing, untrustworthy opportunist, since it has shown up everywhere else in his life. The Swift Vets are correct in labeling Kerry unfit for command, even if the details of their memories have grown blurry over the years. It's stupid to discount the opinions of the men he worked with.

Kerry was rated at the second highest efficiency level. As an former officer, I can tell you that the 2nd highest level is no better than average. The highest level is reserved for only the very best or staff pets, and the third level will limit your career. Anything below that means you'll never last until retirement.

I don't give a damn about the SwiftVet's funding. It didn't come directly from Bush, while MoveOn.org is funded by the Tides Foundation, which is funded by Teresa Heinz Kerry herself, among many other Kerry supporters. Kerry's supporters have spent $63,000,000 on the George Bush smear campaign. Given the royal treatment that Michael Moore received at the Democrats convention, I was glad to see Bush's supporters step up to the firing line and start shooting back. They've gotten much better milage out of their ONE million dollars, than the Democrats have gotten for their $63 million. Republicans are just smarter than Democrats.

If the Democrats campaign of insulting double-standards and back-stabbing are any indicator, a cowardly Kerry administration would be a real nightmare for the United States.

I'm glad you outed yourself, Samhain44, like many Vietnam Veterans, I'm tired of wasting my time showing respect for phony fucks who can't wait to stick another knife in our backs.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:22:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By Samhain44:
I'm with you SorryOfficer, these swiftys remind me a LOT of the tactics used against Mcain in the last election. When the GOP did a hatchet-job on Mcain in 2000, I left the party and now vote independent. I'm not the biggest fan of Kerry OR Bush, and since NY is not a swing state in this election, I'll be using my vote to endorse the craziest SOB out there I can find, just to show the need for more political divergence.

I may even vote for Bo Gritz or some other tinfoil hat wearing loonie!

In reality, I'll probably write in Dennis Kucinich, McCain, or maybe Nader or Dean.

These swifties are really full of it. I can't believe how they're bankrolled by the GOP and STILL get away with it.



Lest we all forget the DUers are always with us..their socialistic, perverted minds..hell, they can't wait to start pushing the wicked witch from New York on America...this is all they have left in their party. Losers and bitches. Thank you for reminding us who you are.

Oh...and that irginal post is a lie..not a word of truth to it. O'Neil never said that in the Nixon tapes. Ever.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:27:06 PM EST
Let's get one damn thing straight. I DO NOT LIKE, NOR AM I VOTING FOR JOHN KERRY.

The SBVT definitely IS a smear campaign being run by the GOP.

Very similar to the smear done to Mcain in 2000 when phone calls started happening in swing states to ask potential voters "did you know he gave away military secrets while a POW?" and "did you know that he fathered a black child?" (He adopted a bangladeshi daughter). Even some of the financiers are the same.

It shocks the hell out of me that you guys would be duped by such bullshit, even accepting "facts" that are so distorted or disturbing just to stay with Dubya in this election. You'd never let the liberals slide with 2% of what has gone on. What's so wrong with saying, "Yeah, it's bullshit, but I think Bush is a better president/ more right on the war/ a better moral leader/ whatever." At least it would be honest.

This campaign is one rich jerkoff facing off against another, with the backing on both sides by other rich assholes, whether they be the likes of scummy striesand or haliburton. The reason why voting for 3rd parties IS NOT "throwing your vote away", especially if you don't live in a swing state, is that it sends a clear message that you're not happy with EITHER choice, which I am not.

I distrust Kerry because of who he is and where he comes from - big, old money. I think he's wrong on many important issues, not the least of which is the right to keep and bear arms. I do like about 10% of his platform, mainly that dealing with healthcare and education.

I don't like Bush because of his ties to radical christian fundamentalism. Sorry, I'm not comfortable having anyone that believes in "the rapture" with their finger on the button. I'm also not convinced that the military operations in Iraq couldn't have been done in a smarter, better prepared manner.

I don't think EITHER of them are real people, more like managed talking heads. I don't think that corporations backing EITHER side (or more likely in this day and age, both sides) will let anyone get by that has their own opinions. By owning all the media in the country, these giant business intrests always prevail in getting their guy into office and I'm sick of it. I'd take ANYONE real and honest over the choices we have in front of us, and that's essentially what I'm saying with my vote.

You guys want to bash me because I don't like the SBVT, or where their bankroll comes from? Fine. You think I'm the enemy because I'm speaking my mind? Fine. You think I'm a moron because I'm not blindly following the dogma of EITHER campaign? Okay. If you guys have better information than I do, rather than calling me a commie, or saying I don't have the RIGHT to make up my OWN MIND, why not try to SHOW me some other info that would CHANGE my mind? As it's clear from the list of people I'm considering voting for, I've not fully decided yet, and if you guys have other articles that dispute what I've said, I'd like to see them. I don't appreciate the dim witted BS that some of you have sunk to, mainly because it's not only base and insulting, but YOU GUYS ARE SMART ENOUGH as firearm owners TO BE ABLE TO CLEARLY ARGUE YOUR POINT.

If you want to stick to BS and just insults, you're not going to win many votes over.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:36:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By Samhain44:
Of this amount Bob Perry, described by the Houston Chronicle last year as the single largest Texas donor to the Republican Party, contributed $100,000. O’Neill and Harlan Crow, the owner of Crow Realty Investors, both contributed $25,000.



Who gives a shit? This is chump change to what George Soros has given to MoveOn.org.

Kerry should take it like a man and STFU, or check his own BS group before throwing stones.

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:40:35 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:45:04 PM EST

I can't believe how they're bankrolled by the GOP and STILL get away with it.


Proof?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:02:45 PM EST
Proof that the Bush Campain was behind the phone calls about McCain? Here you go-

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04123/308586.stm

This is from a press release by the Kerry campaign on USA today's site, so I don't know if it's 100% accurate, but it does have sourses:

FACT SHEET:

Bush Waged Nasty Smear Campaign Against McCain in 2000

Bush Supporters Called McCain "The Fag Candidate." In South Carolina, Bush supporters circulated church fliers that labeled McCain "the fag candidate." Columnist Frank Rich noted that the fliers were distributed "even as Bush subtly reinforced that message by indicating he wouldn't hire openly gay people for his administration." (Washington Post, 2/18/00; Rich op-ed, Austin American-Statesman, 2/29/00)

McCain Slurs Included Illegitimate Children, Homosexuality And A Drug-Addict Wife. Among the rumors circulated against McCain in 2000 in South Carolina was that his adopted Bangladeshi daughter was actually black, that McCain was both gay and cheated on his wife, and that his wife Cindy was a drug addict." (Ivins column, The Nation, 6/18/01)

Bush Campaign Used Code Words to Question McCain's Temper. "A smear campaign of the ugliest sort is now coursing through the contest for the presidency in 2000. Using the code word "temper," a group of Senate Republicans, and at least some outriders of the George W. Bush campaign, are spreading the word that John McCain is unstable. The subtext, also suggested in this whispering campaign, is that he returned from 5 1/2 years as a POW in North Vietnam with a loose screw. And it is bruited about that he shouldn't be entrusted with nuclear weapons." (Drew op-ed, Washington Post, 11/19/99)

Bush Supporters Questioned McCain's Sanity. "Some of George W. Bush's supporters have questioned Republican presidential candidate John McCain's fitness for the White House, suggesting that his five years as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam drove him insane at the time." (Lansing State Journal, 11/23/99)

Bush Supporters Spread Racist Rumors About McCain's Daughter. Bush supporters in South Carolina made race-baiting phone calls saying that McCain had a "black child." The McCains' daughter, Bridget, was adopted from Mother Teresa's orphanage in Bangladesh. In August 2000, columnist Maureen Dowd wrote that the McCains "are still seething about Bush supporters in South Carolina spreading word of their dark-skinned adopted daughter." (Time, 3/6/00; Boston Globe, 3/4/00; Dowd column, New York Times, 8/9/00)

Rove Suggests Former POW McCain Committed Treason and Fathered Child With Black Prostitute. In 2000, McCain operatives in SC accused Rove of spreading rumors against McCain, such as "suggestions that McCain had committed treason while a prisoner of war, and had fathered a child by a black prostitute," according to the New Yorker. (New Yorker, 5/12/03)

-- After Rove Denied Role In McCain Whisper Campaign, Reporters Concluded He Was Behind It. A December 1999 Dallas Morning News linked Rove to a series of campaign dirty tricks, including his College Republican efforts, allegedly starting a whisper campaign about Ann Richard being too gay-friendly, spreading stories about Jim Hightower's involvement in a kickback scheme and leaking the educational history of Lena Guerrero. The article also outlined current dirty tricks and whisper campaigns against McCain in South Carolina, including that "McCain may be unstable as a result of being tortured while a prisoner of war in North Vietnam." (DMN, 12/2/99) After the article was published, Rove blasted Slater in the Manchester, NH airport, "nose to nose" according to one witness, with Rove claiming Slater had "harmed his reputation," Slater later noted. But according to one witness, "What was interesting then is that everyone on the campaign charter concluded that Rove was responsible for rumors about McCain." (The Nation, 3/5/01)

-- Rove Was In Close Touch With McConnell, McCain-Feingold's Chief Opponent. Senior White House adviser Karl Rove was in close contact with Senator Mitch McConnell (R-KY) during McConnell's effort to fight the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Bill in the U.S. Senate. According to Newsweek, though Rove and Bush have publicly kept their distance from McConnell on the issue, "sources tell Newsweek that Rove is, in fact, in close touch with McConnell as GOP experts study the bill for hidden land mines." (Newsweek, 2/25/02)

Bush Campaign Accused of Using Push Polls Against McCain. College of Charleston student Suzette Latsko said she received a telephone call from a woman who identified herself as an employee of Voter/Consumer Research, and that the caller misrepresented McCain's positions and asked if Latsko knew McCain had been reprimanded for interfering with federal regulators in the savings and loan scandal. Voter/Consumer Research is listed as a polling contractor on Bush's Federal Election Commission filings; the Bush campaign has paid Voter/Consumer Research $93,000 through December 31, 1999. Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer denied the call was a push poll, but said it was important that the Republican Party remember McCain's role in the S&L crisis. (Houston Chronicle, 2/8/00)

-- Bush Campaign Acknowledged Making Phone Calls. Tucker Eskew, Bush's South Carolina spokesman, acknowledged the Bush campaign made such calls, but claimed they were not "push polls." Eskew added, "Show me a baseless comment in those questions." (Post and Courier, 2/8/00)

Bush Used Fringe Veterans Group to Attack McCain as "Manchurian Candidate." "In the case of Ted Sampley, the same guy who did Bush's dirty work in going after Sen. John McCain in the 2000 Republican primaries is doing the job against Kerry this year. Sampley dared compare McCain, who spent five years as a Vietnam POW, with 'the Manchurian Candidate.'" (Dionne op-ed, Washington Post, 4/27/04)

-- Sampley Called McCain a "Coward" and a Traitor. "Sampley... accused McCain of being a weak-minded coward who had escaped death by collaborating with the enemy. Sampley claimed that McCain had first been compromised by the Vietnamese, then recruited by the Soviets." (Salon.com)


As far as first hand knowledge is conserned, I have a friend in SC that recieved one of those calls. I'm not saying that the Dems wouldn't or couldn't pull such a dirty trick, since they did during the recount in Florida, I'm just saying that it WAS the bush campaign that did it this time.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:08:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 7:14:02 PM EST by LARRYG]

Originally Posted By Samhain44:
Let's get one damn thing straight. I DO NOT LIKE, NOR AM I VOTING FOR JOHN KERRY.

The SBVT definitely IS a smear campaign being run by the GOP.

Very similar to the smear done to Mcain in 2000 when phone calls started happening in swing states to ask potential voters "did you know he gave away military secrets while a POW?" and "did you know that he fathered a black child?" (He adopted a bangladeshi daughter). Even some of the financiers are the same.

It shocks the hell out of me that you guys would be duped by such bullshit, even accepting "facts" that are so distorted or disturbing just to stay with Dubya in this election. You'd never let the liberals slide with 2% of what has gone on. What's so wrong with saying, "Yeah, it's bullshit, but I think Bush is a better president/ more right on the war/ a better moral leader/ whatever." At least it would be honest.

This campaign is one rich jerkoff facing off against another, with the backing on both sides by other rich assholes, whether they be the likes of scummy striesand or haliburton. The reason why voting for 3rd parties IS NOT "throwing your vote away", especially if you don't live in a swing state, is that it sends a clear message that you're not happy with EITHER choice, which I am not.

I distrust Kerry because of who he is and where he comes from - big, old money. I think he's wrong on many important issues, not the least of which is the right to keep and bear arms. I do like about 10% of his platform, mainly that dealing with healthcare and education.

I don't like Bush because of his ties to radical christian fundamentalism. Sorry, I'm not comfortable having anyone that believes in "the rapture" with their finger on the button. I'm also not convinced that the military operations in Iraq couldn't have been done in a smarter, better prepared manner.

I don't think EITHER of them are real people, more like managed talking heads. I don't think that corporations backing EITHER side (or more likely in this day and age, both sides) will let anyone get by that has their own opinions. By owning all the media in the country, these giant business intrests always prevail in getting their guy into office and I'm sick of it. I'd take ANYONE real and honest over the choices we have in front of us, and that's essentially what I'm saying with my vote.

You guys want to bash me because I don't like the SBVT, or where their bankroll comes from? Fine. You think I'm the enemy because I'm speaking my mind? Fine. You think I'm a moron because I'm not blindly following the dogma of EITHER campaign? Okay. If you guys have better information than I do, rather than calling me a commie, or saying I don't have the RIGHT to make up my OWN MIND, why not try to SHOW me some other info that would CHANGE my mind? As it's clear from the list of people I'm considering voting for, I've not fully decided yet, and if you guys have other articles that dispute what I've said, I'd like to see them. I don't appreciate the dim witted BS that some of you have sunk to, mainly because it's not only base and insulting, but YOU GUYS ARE SMART ENOUGH as firearm owners TO BE ABLE TO CLEARLY ARGUE YOUR POINT.

If you want to stick to BS and just insults, you're not going to win many votes over.



You are a liar, period. You don't have a mind to make up, you just to what Kerry tells you. Your so-called "info" has been refuted, but Kerry won't let you see that.

YOU are the dimwit.

The point has been argued, but when someone claims not to be voting for Kerry, but every thing else they say contradicts that, why argue with them. They are trying to be deceptive, but are seen right through, so why argue with someone who won't admit their true agenda.

You say your aren't following the dogma of either campaign, another lie. Why haven't we heard you bashing moveon.org for their lies? The reason is that you agree with them, you are voting for Kerry.

Info has been shown that would change a reasonable person's mind, but no amount of real info will change the mind of a Kerry disciple. Hell, you post so-called info from the Kerry website about the smear campaign against McCain and push it as fact. Oh, you say you don't know if it is 100 percent accurate, but you still put it forth as fact. However, you quote nothing from the Bush campaign. The sources you mention are fucking newspaper writers. Yeah, that is some real source. You are pitiful.

You are lying when you say you don't support Kerry, plain and simple.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:11:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Samhain44:

The SBVT definitely IS a smear campaign being run by the GOP.



How about a shred of real proof then? $100,000 donation to the Swift Boat vets doesn't amount to shit.

No the stupid little flowchart that was in what the NYTimes? Is not proof of anything.

Pretty much anyone can be linked to Kevin Bacon is 6 links or less, so what?

BTW- McCain is looney. My proof is the McCain-Lieberman gunshow bill.

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:25:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 7:27:36 PM EST by BigDozer66]

"So far, John Kerry has been the direct beneficiary of an estimated $60 million worth of 'independent' TV ads, many of which viciously attack President Bush. ... Democrat 527 organizations, so-named for the IRS section that governs them, have been saturating the airwaves and cable channels, supplementing Mr. Kerry's own bulging campaign coffers. Democrat 527s have overwhelmed their Republican counterparts, effectively permitting Mr. Kerry to monopolize this McCain-Feingold soft-money loophole.
The relatively tiny effort by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth proves the point, which The New York Times completely missed in its Page 1 story on Friday. Instead, the NYT was upset over the fact that the veterans received $225,000 of its initial $500,000 stake from two Texans. The amounts were $200,000 from real estate executive Bob Perry, whom the NYT identified as 'the top donor to Republicans in the state,' and $25,000 from Harlan Crow, 'the seventh-largest donor to Republicans' in Texas.
By the standards established by Democrat 527 donors, Mr. Perry would be a piker, while Mr. Crow's contribution would not even qualify as a rounding error. In fact, based on data compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics, 21 of the 22 individuals who have contributed at least $500,000 to 527s have donated a cumulative $56.7 million to Democrat-oriented groups. These include Peter Lewis ($14 million), George Soros ($12.6 million) and Steven Bing ($8.1 million). The sole exception among the 22 is Carl Lindner, who has donated $1.02 million to Republican-oriented 527s. ... If Mr. Kerry is really looking for a smoking gun, he ought to examine the Media Fund (total receipts: $27.2 million), which is run by former Clinton Deputy Chief of Staff Harold Ickes, and America Coming Together (total receipts: $26.9 million). The chief spokesman for both of these Democrat 527s is Jim Jordan, who happens to be Mr. Kerry's former campaign manager. Not surprising, a separate article appearing in Friday's New York Times regarding Federal Elections regulation of 527s mentioned Mr. Jordan in his capacity as spokesman for the Media Fund and ACT, but neglected to mention his Kerry connection." --The Washington Times




BigDozer66
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:25:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:25:59 PM EST

Proof that the Bush Campain was behind the phone calls about McCain? Here you go-

This is from a press release by the Kerry campaign on USA today's site, so I don't know if it's 100% accurate, but it does have sourses:



Proof from a Kerry press release…

Now you are just being silly and stupid. Passing on bullsh*t don’t make it fact and your shallow suppositions on this whole matter are laughable. Your and the Kerry campaigns opinions are proof of nothing.

Why don’t you just come out and admit you wish to stifle free speech through innuendo and lie.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:29:00 PM EST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By Samhain44:

The SBVT definitely IS a smear campaign being run by the GOP.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Bush is no more responsible for the actions of his supporters than Kerry is. You go on and on about Bush, but not a word about Kerry. So it appears you don't have a problem with Kerry's supporters smear campaigns, just the support some of Bush's supporters are giving to the Swift Vets who actually worked with Kerry and would rather not see him as president. Kerry fired the first shot in 1971 when he accused me of being a war criminal. The GOP is doing important work, supporting these brave and honorable SwiftVets.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:45:22 PM EST
I'll be brutally honest, I don't give two shakes of a dead rat's ass which side is telling the truth here. My father was in Vietnam for his second tour when Kerry came to Vietnam, and he was still there when Kerry bugged out four months later. My wife's father and uncle also served in Vietnam, and they all comported themselves with honor and integrity. When John Kerry sat before Congress and stated under oath that atrocities and war crimes were standard operating proceedure, he slandered them and all the other Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines who did their duty and returned home to be spit upon by people not worthy to lick their shoes. If the charges made against Kerry turn out to be completely false (which I sincerely doubt), it would only be that much more deliciously ironic to me. This dish of bile and gall is of Kerry's own making and I for one hope that he chokes on it.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:09:50 PM EST
The fact that Samhain44 NEVER touches the other 527 groups that deal with the democraps obviously shows the troll that he is. The libs just can't take it when their own tactics are used against them however legitimate it may be. I think the SwiftBoat Vets are telling the truth IMHO. And with kerry receiving a round-about endorsement by the North Koreans just makes me more determined to vote for Bush.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:23:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By UPD415:
The fact that Samhain44 NEVER touches the other 527 groups that deal with the democraps obviously shows the troll that he is. The libs just can't take it when their own tactics are used against them however legitimate it may be. I think the SwiftBoat Vets are telling the truth IMHO. And with kerry receiving a round-about endorsement by the North Koreans just makes me more determined to vote for Bush.



In early 1971 my unit (1/327 - 101st) was running classic screening operations outside the Ashau valley. We had a scout dog and handler with us. I was the LT.

We we cut trail in the morning, me, the dog and handler and one squad. We broke for lunch and the dog handler and I were shooting the shit when I heard this screeching sound, like something out of a Tarzan movie. I asked him if he knew what it was.

He told me it sounded like an elephant. I asked him what he thought an elephant was doing out here, it was a free fire zone. He said it was probably carrying a 50 cal for an NVA company.

I asked him how he knew this. He said that when he was operating in Cambodia the year before, they saw the NVA using elephants to carry arms and supplies down the Ho Chi Minh trail.

I always thought it was common knowlege we were operating in Cambodia from 1967 on.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 11:31:39 PM EST
jimb100- I don't doubt at all that we had operatives in Cambodia from '67 on. Wouldn't surprise me. The problem is kerry's story and how he (kerry) keeps changing it when it was supposed to be "seared" into his mind. And, notice Sh44 never mentions the other 527 groups that are attacking Bush. That's what my reply was about. BTW- do I doubt kerry? YES! I think he's a cheap, coniving, political hack/scumbag who served 4 months in a combat zone and embellished his role and "heroism" for political gain. IT IS kerry WHO KEEPS CHANGING HIS STORY! wHY ISN'T THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA SPEAKING ABOUT THE OTHER 527 GROUPS (90 % democrap connected) WHICH ARE ATTACKING BUSH? I'VE SEEN ONLY FOX NEWS MENTION THIS AND BOB DOLE MENTION THIS ON MSNBC'S SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 12:11:18 AM EST
Out of the other 527's, the only ones that I have seen that went WAY over the line was move on, which accepted a commercial in it's contest that compared bush to hitler (there may have been 2 of them).

Not to say that the dems are just as bad as the bush campaign, because I think they BOTH suck, but you guys seem to be pissed at all the 527's- what am I missing because in NY we're not getting a lot of ads on either side, so are there a lot of pro-kerry ads with that would compare equally with the shady funding & facts that have SBVT in so much trouble?

BTW - the reason I used that kerry PR statement in my post is that it was well quoted and short, when compared with all the articles it quotes. Since some of you may want more detailed quoting, here they are:

Bush Supporters Called McCain “The Fag Candidate." - WASHINGTON POST 2/18/00
In South Carolina, Bush supporters circulated church fliers that labeled McCain “the fag candidate.” Columnist Frank Rich noted that the fliers were distributed “even as Bush subtly reinforced that message by indicating he wouldn’t hire openly gay people for his administration.” [Washington Post, 2/18/00; Rich op-ed, Austin American-Statesman, 2/29/00]

McCain Slurs Included Illegitimate Children, Homosexuality And A Drug-Addict Wife
THE NATION 6/18/01

Among the rumors circulated against McCain in 2000 in South Carolina was that his adopted Bangladeshi daughter was actually black, that McCain was both gay and cheated on his wife, and that his wife Cindy was a drug addict.” [Ivins column, The Nation, 6/18/01]

Bush Campaign Used Code Words to Question McCain’s Temper
“A smear campaign of the ugliest sort is now coursing through the contest for the presidency in 2000. Using the code word "temper," a group of Senate Republicans, and at least some outriders of the George W. Bush campaign, are spreading the word that John McCain is unstable. The subtext, also suggested in this whispering campaign, is that he returned from 5 1/2 years as a POW in North Vietnam with a loose screw. And it is bruited about that he shouldn't be entrusted with nuclear weapons.” [Drew op-ed, Washington Post, 11/19/99]

Bush Supporters Questioned McCain’s Sanity.
“Some of George W. Bush's supporters have questioned Republican presidential candidate John McCain's fitness for the White House, suggesting that his five years as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam drove him insane at the time.” [Lansing State Journal, 11/23/99]

Bush Supporters Spread Racist Rumors About McCain’s Daughter.
Bush supporters in South Carolina made race-baiting phone calls saying that McCain had a “black child.” The McCains’ daughter, Bridget, was adopted from Mother Teresa’s orphanage in Bangladesh. In August 2000, columnist Maureen Dowd wrote that the McCains “are still seething about Bush supporters in South Carolina spreading word of their dark-skinned adopted daughter.” [Time, 3/6/00; Boston Globe, 3/4/00; Dowd column, New York Times, 8/9/00]

Rove Suggests Former POW McCain Committed Treason and Fathered Child With Black Prostitute.
In 2000, McCain operatives in SC accused Rove of spreading rumors against McCain, such as “suggestions that McCain had committed treason while a prisoner of war, and had fathered a child by a black prostitute,” according to the New Yorker. [New Yorker, 5/12/03]

After Rove Denied Role In McCain Whisper Campaign, Reporters Concluded He Was Behind It.
A December 1999 Dallas Morning News linked Rove to a series of campaign dirty tricks, including his College Republican efforts, allegedly starting a whisper campaign about Ann Richard being too gay-friendly, spreading stories about Jim Hightower’s involvement in a kickback scheme and leaking the educational history of Lena Guerrero. The article also outlined current dirty tricks and whisper campaigns against McCain in South Carolina, including that “McCain may be unstable as a result of being tortured while a prisoner of war in North Vietnam.” (DMN, 12/2/99) After the article was published, Rove blasted Slater in the Manchester, NH airport, “nose to nose” according to one witness, with Rove claiming Slater had “harmed his reputation,” Slater later noted. But according to one witness, “What was interesting then is that everyone on the campaign charter concluded that Rove was responsible for rumors about McCain.” [The Nation, 3/5/01]

Rove Was In Close Touch With McConnell, McCain-Feingold’s Chief Opponent
Senior White House adviser Karl Rove was in close contact with Senator Mitch McConnell (R-KY) during McConnell’s effort to fight the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Bill in the U.S. Senate. According to Newsweek, though Rove and Bush have publicly kept their distance from McConnell on the issue, “sources tell Newsweek that Rove is, in fact, in close touch with McConnell as GOP experts study the bill for hidden land mines.” [Newsweek, 2/25/02]

Bush Campaign Accused of Using Push Polls Against McCain
College of Charleston student Suzette Latsko said she received a telephone call from a woman who identified herself as an employee of Voter/Consumer Research, and that the caller misrepresented McCain’s positions and asked if Latsko knew McCain had been reprimanded for interfering with federal regulators in the savings and loan scandal. Voter/Consumer Research is listed as a polling contractor on Bush’s Federal Election Commission filings; the Bush campaign has paid Voter/Consumer Research $93,000 through December 31, 1999. Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer denied the call was a push poll, but said it was important that the Republican Party remember McCain’s role in the S&L crisis. [Houston Chronicle, 2/8/00]

Bush Campaign Acknowledged Making Phone Calls
Tucker Eskew, Bush’s South Carolina spokesman, acknowledged the Bush campaign made such calls, but claimed they were not “push polls.” Eskew added, “Show me a baseless comment in those questions.” [Post and Courier, 2/8/00]

Bush Used Fringe Veterans Group to Attack McCain as “Manchurian Candidate.”
“In the case of Ted Sampley, the same guy who did Bush's dirty work in going after Sen. John McCain in the 2000 Republican primaries is doing the job against Kerry this year. Sampley dared compare McCain, who spent five years as a Vietnam POW, with ‘the Manchurian Candidate.’” [Dionne op-ed, Washington Post, 4/27/04]

Sampley Called McCain a “Coward” and a Traitor.
“Sampley… accused McCain of being a weak-minded coward who had escaped death by collaborating with the enemy. Sampley claimed that McCain had first been compromised by the Vietnamese, then recruited by the Soviets.” [Salon.com]

Gee... That's the:
WASHINGTON POST
SALON.com
POST & COURIER
HOUSTON CHRONICLE
NEWSWEEK
THE NATION
THE NEW YORKER
THE NEW YORK TIMES
TIME
THE BOSTON GLOBE
THE LANSING STATE JOURNAL
and THE AUSTIN AMERICAN STATESMAN.

So, are they all part of the "vast left wing conspiracy" that's defending what happened to another republican candidate? If you think that, it's time to bust out the tinfoil hats...

I'm ready to condemn 527's on the left, but just haven't seen the brazen BS like this. At least not since Gore pulled that crap in the recount where he ONLY wanted to recount highly democratic counties in FL, not the whole state as should have been done. THAT was such BS.

On this issue, you guys are doing a lot of namecalling, but very little convincing...
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 12:18:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 12:20:32 AM EST by DocBrooks]

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Prove it or STFU you loser.


And don't bother voting if you're just going to waste it...you don't deserve the right to do so.

SGatr15



saying that someone doesn't deserve a right shows just what a dumb fuck you are. Respectfully disagree, next time.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 12:48:17 AM EST
Thanks for that Doc. This probably wouln't have flamed up if it wasn't for that 1st statement bySGatr15.

Jimb100, maybe from being in Vietnam you might know- how hard would it really be to find out whether Kerry was in Cambodia on Christmas Eve? Since we weren't "officially" there at that time, I know it may be tough, but there must be documented evidence somewhere, right? He wasn't CO of his boat, so maybe his commanders could verify if they're still around?

I read somewhere that 4 of the 5 guys on Kerry's boat back up his story, does anyone know if the last guy is deceased or whether he has a different story? Do they all back Kerry on ALL his accounts?

Please provide news links if you can!
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:14:12 AM EST
Sh44- all the newspapers/magazines that you listed do continuously demonstrate a left to far-left slant in their views/articles and op-eds. The NYT has probably the worst trackrecord for reliability and if these are your reference sources then perhaps you should consider others. (No, I will not list any for you to consider as I'm sure you can handle this on your own.) I still think you are a troll but, perhaps not. If I'm proven to be wrong then I'll apologize in advance.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:33:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 2:33:51 AM EST by Cypher214]

Originally Posted By Samhain44:
Out of the other 527's, the only ones that I have seen that went WAY over the line was move on, which accepted a commercial in it's contest that compared bush to hitler (there may have been 2 of them).

Not to say that the dems are just as bad as the bush campaign, because I think they BOTH suck, but you guys seem to be pissed at all the 527's- what am I missing because in NY we're not getting a lot of ads on either side, so are there a lot of pro-kerry ads with that would compare equally with the shady funding & facts that have SBVT in so much trouble?

BTW - the reason I used that kerry PR statement in my post is that it was well quoted and short, when compared with all the articles it quotes. Since some of you may want more detailed quoting, here they are:

Bush Supporters Called McCain “The Fag Candidate." - WASHINGTON POST 2/18/00
In South Carolina, Bush supporters circulated church fliers that labeled McCain “the fag candidate.” Columnist Frank Rich noted that the fliers were distributed “even as Bush subtly reinforced that message by indicating he wouldn’t hire openly gay people for his administration.” [Washington Post, 2/18/00; Rich op-ed, Austin American-Statesman, 2/29/00]

McCain Slurs Included Illegitimate Children, Homosexuality And A Drug-Addict Wife
THE NATION 6/18/01

Among the rumors circulated against McCain in 2000 in South Carolina was that his adopted Bangladeshi daughter was actually black, that McCain was both gay and cheated on his wife, and that his wife Cindy was a drug addict.” [Ivins column, The Nation, 6/18/01]

Bush Campaign Used Code Words to Question McCain’s Temper
“A smear campaign of the ugliest sort is now coursing through the contest for the presidency in 2000. Using the code word "temper," a group of Senate Republicans, and at least some outriders of the George W. Bush campaign, are spreading the word that John McCain is unstable. The subtext, also suggested in this whispering campaign, is that he returned from 5 1/2 years as a POW in North Vietnam with a loose screw. And it is bruited about that he shouldn't be entrusted with nuclear weapons.” [Drew op-ed, Washington Post, 11/19/99]

Bush Supporters Questioned McCain’s Sanity.
“Some of George W. Bush's supporters have questioned Republican presidential candidate John McCain's fitness for the White House, suggesting that his five years as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam drove him insane at the time.” [Lansing State Journal, 11/23/99]

Bush Supporters Spread Racist Rumors About McCain’s Daughter.
Bush supporters in South Carolina made race-baiting phone calls saying that McCain had a “black child.” The McCains’ daughter, Bridget, was adopted from Mother Teresa’s orphanage in Bangladesh. In August 2000, columnist Maureen Dowd wrote that the McCains “are still seething about Bush supporters in South Carolina spreading word of their dark-skinned adopted daughter.” [Time, 3/6/00; Boston Globe, 3/4/00; Dowd column, New York Times, 8/9/00]

Rove Suggests Former POW McCain Committed Treason and Fathered Child With Black Prostitute.
In 2000, McCain operatives in SC accused Rove of spreading rumors against McCain, such as “suggestions that McCain had committed treason while a prisoner of war, and had fathered a child by a black prostitute,” according to the New Yorker. [New Yorker, 5/12/03]

After Rove Denied Role In McCain Whisper Campaign, Reporters Concluded He Was Behind It.
A December 1999 Dallas Morning News linked Rove to a series of campaign dirty tricks, including his College Republican efforts, allegedly starting a whisper campaign about Ann Richard being too gay-friendly, spreading stories about Jim Hightower’s involvement in a kickback scheme and leaking the educational history of Lena Guerrero. The article also outlined current dirty tricks and whisper campaigns against McCain in South Carolina, including that “McCain may be unstable as a result of being tortured while a prisoner of war in North Vietnam.” (DMN, 12/2/99) After the article was published, Rove blasted Slater in the Manchester, NH airport, “nose to nose” according to one witness, with Rove claiming Slater had “harmed his reputation,” Slater later noted. But according to one witness, “What was interesting then is that everyone on the campaign charter concluded that Rove was responsible for rumors about McCain.” [The Nation, 3/5/01]

Rove Was In Close Touch With McConnell, McCain-Feingold’s Chief Opponent
Senior White House adviser Karl Rove was in close contact with Senator Mitch McConnell (R-KY) during McConnell’s effort to fight the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Bill in the U.S. Senate. According to Newsweek, though Rove and Bush have publicly kept their distance from McConnell on the issue, “sources tell Newsweek that Rove is, in fact, in close touch with McConnell as GOP experts study the bill for hidden land mines.” [Newsweek, 2/25/02]

Bush Campaign Accused of Using Push Polls Against McCain
College of Charleston student Suzette Latsko said she received a telephone call from a woman who identified herself as an employee of Voter/Consumer Research, and that the caller misrepresented McCain’s positions and asked if Latsko knew McCain had been reprimanded for interfering with federal regulators in the savings and loan scandal. Voter/Consumer Research is listed as a polling contractor on Bush’s Federal Election Commission filings; the Bush campaign has paid Voter/Consumer Research $93,000 through December 31, 1999. Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer denied the call was a push poll, but said it was important that the Republican Party remember McCain’s role in the S&L crisis. [Houston Chronicle, 2/8/00]

Bush Campaign Acknowledged Making Phone Calls
Tucker Eskew, Bush’s South Carolina spokesman, acknowledged the Bush campaign made such calls, but claimed they were not “push polls.” Eskew added, “Show me a baseless comment in those questions.” [Post and Courier, 2/8/00]

Bush Used Fringe Veterans Group to Attack McCain as “Manchurian Candidate.”
“In the case of Ted Sampley, the same guy who did Bush's dirty work in going after Sen. John McCain in the 2000 Republican primaries is doing the job against Kerry this year. Sampley dared compare McCain, who spent five years as a Vietnam POW, with ‘the Manchurian Candidate.’” [Dionne op-ed, Washington Post, 4/27/04]

Sampley Called McCain a “Coward” and a Traitor.
“Sampley… accused McCain of being a weak-minded coward who had escaped death by collaborating with the enemy. Sampley claimed that McCain had first been compromised by the Vietnamese, then recruited by the Soviets.” [Salon.com]

Gee... That's the:
WASHINGTON POST
SALON.com
POST & COURIER
HOUSTON CHRONICLE
NEWSWEEK
THE NATION
THE NEW YORKER
THE NEW YORK TIMES
TIME
THE BOSTON GLOBE
THE LANSING STATE JOURNAL
and THE AUSTIN AMERICAN STATESMAN.

So, are they all part of the "vast left wing conspiracy" that's defending what happened to another republican candidate? If you think that, it's time to bust out the tinfoil hats...

I'm ready to condemn 527's on the left, but just haven't seen the brazen BS like this. At least not since Gore pulled that crap in the recount where he ONLY wanted to recount highly democratic counties in FL, not the whole state as should have been done. THAT was such BS.

On this issue, you guys are doing a lot of namecalling, but very little convincing...



No, actually you are the one who is doing VERY LITTLE convincing. You cut and paste articles from left-wing sources and expect us to take it as truth?

Not only that, but you keep saying it was BUSH who attacked McCain when your own sources say "Bush Supporters" are the ones who were attacking McCain. A President can not control what his supporters do.

Just as soon as you want to elaborate on the MASSIVE SMEAR CAMPAIGN being acted out by Kerry's supporters and place the blame for this smear campaign on KERRY HIMSELF, just go right ahead... someone might actually listen to you then.

Someone needs to tell me exactly what reason the SBVFT would have for lying about all this. They would know damn good and well that if they did lie, Kerry would sue the hell out of them for slander or at the minimum, every lie would be found out by SOMEONE and they would all look like idiots. They would HAVE to be telling the truth to come forward with the information they are giving.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:24:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 4:31:13 AM EST by Bartholomew_Roberts]

Originally Posted By Samhain44:
The SBVT definitely IS a smear campaign being run by the GOP.



Wow, the GOP is pretty well-organized then since they were able to spot a potential threat from Kerry back in 1968 and get 254 of his shipmates (including two guys worked with Kerry during his 1996 Senate campaign) to support their "smear campaign". Ever heard of Occam's Razor?

P.S. Regarding your "McCain Proof", did you notice that most of what you cite as supporting facts are actually op-eds (the op stands for opinion) by columnists who are open supporters of the Democratic party (Ivins, Dowd, Rich, etc.). If I give my opinion that these columnists are full of shit and it is printed by a major newspaper, will that suffice as factual proof during the next election that these columnists are indeed full of shit or will it still be just my opinion?


nally Posted By HiramRanger:
As for why he said he was in Cambodia, I'm guessing it might have a little something to do with talking to the president of the united states in the oval office. Think maybe he was nervous. Meant to say he was along the coast of Cambodia, perhaps even within the 12 mile limit for International waters, but not physically on land in Cambodia?



Actually, I read up on this and O'Neill served in Vietnam longer than Kerry. He was in Vietnam when the United States mounted an official (not covert) invasion of parts of southern Cambodia to interdict NVA supplies in that region.

www.militaryhistoryonline.com/vietnam/vietnamization/cambodia.aspx



Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:39:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By Samhain44:
sgtar,

Want to start cursing at me, asshat? How's this for proof:

A return filed with the Internal Revenue Service by SBVT states that between April 23, when it was formed, and June 30 it had raised $158,750. Of this amount Bob Perry, described by the Houston Chronicle last year as the single largest Texas donor to the Republican Party, contributed $100,000. O’Neill and Harlan Crow, the owner of Crow Realty Investors, both contributed $25,000.



Therefore, all one has to do is make a donation to both the Democratic Party AND MoveOn.org or any other pro-Kerry 527, and that alone will establish criminal activitiy?
Sorry, but Logic-man says NO!


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