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Posted: 5/24/2001 12:43:34 PM EDT
[#1]
Exactly right, you can't legislate morality.
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Posted: 5/24/2001 12:53:28 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: Exactly right, you can't legislate morality. What would you call a law against murder??? A social construct we use to stop something we consider inconvenient??? EVERY law is "legislating morality." You miss the point. We CAN and DO legislate morality every day. Pro-abortion laws effectively call abortion moral. Vandalism laws tell us its immoral to damage other peoples property. This idea that you "can't legislate morality" is perhaps the silliest idea in the last 1,000 years. Well, that and the Chia Pet and bell bottom jeans. My point is not that legislating morality is wrong. Its that dealing with individuals hearts and belief systems is BETTER. |
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Posted: 5/24/2001 2:27:13 PM EDT
[#3]
Ponder it this way, g-man. I'm a one issue voter: how do they stand on the Second? ALL the other issues flow from there. Even if the candidate in question is opposed to everything else I stand for, there's a limit to what he can do about it AS LONG AS I AM ARMED. You are quite right to vote for a pro second pro abortion guy...if you don't have a gun THERE IS NO REASON FOR ANYONE TO LISTEN TO YOU.
Sorry...life is really pretty black and white for me: if you want to tie me up, you are evil and must be destroyed. I don't care about your positions on anything else on earth. |
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Posted: 5/24/2001 2:28:23 PM EDT
[#4]
i consider abortion wrong, and a form of murder. i consider the fetus a sentient lifeform (some people do not believe this is so). however, how can the government force someone to love their child? to become a good parent? banning the practice will only cause "back-alley" abortions, or worse yet abandonment when a baby.
this does not mean i dont beleive in parental responsiblities. laws should exist to enforce individual responsiblites, but they can not create love for a fellow human-being, nor a child. i know this argument can be applied to murder of an adult, but laws banning murder have not kept people from doing so. at least if abortion is done in a clinic it would be more sanitary and safe for the irresponsible mother[:(] i propose the idea of freezing the embryo so that a couple who has trouble producing their own child could intead have a fetus "installed". sort of like early adoption. please note that my position on abortion may or may not be the same as whats in the Libertarian party platform. cyrogenic lib |
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Posted: 5/24/2001 2:42:57 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Its getting to the point I'd rather vote for a pro-abortion libertarian that upholds the Constitution than a pro-life Republican that caves to Marxist pressures. One down, 200 million more to go! Welcome to the real home of freedom, libertarianism. Take a few minutes to check out [url]www.lp.org[/url]. |
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Posted: 5/24/2001 2:54:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Umm... I think I clicked on the wrong thred.
But since I read all of it, I'll give you my two cents: I just vote Republican, unless someone else wants a strong military (thats my selling point) and not afraid to go (sounding like Cartman) "kick you squa in da nutz!". My worthless $0.02 |
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Posted: 5/24/2001 2:59:38 PM EDT
[#7]
I keep telling you guys, IT'S TOO LATE FOR VOTING TO DO ANY GOOD! The only thing that will return us to a constitutional gov't will be a revolt/civil war/mass civil disobedience. The Republicrats wil not voluntarily surrender power.
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Posted: 5/24/2001 3:35:47 PM EDT
[#8]
ET3...you "clicked on the wrong thr(sic)ed"?
And just which thread were you looking for? You say that as if you stumbled into a gay bar looking for a place to piss... garandman, come back...I'm interested in your perspective on your revelation. pasp...sure it's too late for voting, but why not, given there's damn little else to do in the average town on a Tuesday night.... |
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Posted: 5/24/2001 3:44:40 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: life is really pretty black and white for me. I knew this would turn into a race issue. Just another example of the man keeping 'em down. |
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Posted: 5/24/2001 3:46:40 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: ET3...you "clicked on the wrong thr(sic)ed"? And just which thread were you looking for? You say that as if you stumbled into a gay bar looking for a place to piss... Now that's funny! |
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Posted: 5/24/2001 3:58:25 PM EDT
[#11]
I also do not like or *support* abortion, but I would also not make having one illegal. Making something illegal will rarely stop a desperate person from breaking a law. Ironically, neither pro- or anti-abortion groups put forth any significant effort to EDUCATE against *becoming pregnant*, which would be the correct and BEST way to reduce abortions. Both groups would rather have the government enforcing their decision.
One of the reasons many people struggle with the concepts of Libertarianism is that they take a *single* Libertarian concept and try to apply it to the current system, and declare that it, by itself, can't work, so therefore Libertarians are wasting their time. But really, the idea is that MANY changes need to be made in order to restore liberty, and in a world where Libertarian restraints were put on government, things would be MUCH improved all around. The Republicans are fully prepared to "compromise" away our rights if they can get more money and more power. The Libertarian party refuses (unwisely, many would say) to accept federal "matching funds" for their election, because their fundemental beliefs go against Big Government. Choosing liberty isn't always easy. -Troy |
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Posted: 5/24/2001 4:03:07 PM EDT
[#12]
Racist!?? Turn this into a racist issue?!?!
I was refering to the chance that some folks here might own a white dog and some might own a black dog. What did you think I was talking about? Sheesh. Kinda predisposed to play the race card, eh? [;)] |
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Posted: 5/24/2001 4:05:29 PM EDT
[#13]
OK - closet racist - Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
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Posted: 5/24/2001 4:06:25 PM EDT
[#14]
BTW, Celt what color is your dog?
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Posted: 5/24/2001 5:04:25 PM EDT
[#15]
I've been wrestling with this issue for a long time, Garandman. I wish, more than anything, that all or most all Repubs were conservative (a true one), LIKE RON PAUL. Ron Paul is the man!
I've been wrestling with the idea of voting Libertarian. Libertarians sound great and all, but there are 3 or 4 issues that I just can't support. Just [i]can't[/i]. That puts me in a quandry. I will, no doubt, vote for a true dye in the wool conservative whenever I see one, but while I am waiting for such a lucky break, I guess I have to vote for the lesser of two evils, or vote libertarian (however grudgingly). The Constitution Party is better, but will never be successful because of it's ties with religion. What I want to know, more than all, is when are we going to get a Conservative Party? |
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Posted: 5/24/2001 5:08:47 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:I keep telling you guys, IT'S TOO LATE FOR VOTING TO DO ANY GOOD! The only thing that will return us to a constitutional gov't will be a revolt/civil war/mass civil disobedience. The Republicrats wil not voluntarily surrender power. Here, Here!!! Someone else recognizes the sh!t we are in! Viva la Liberty! |
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Posted: 5/24/2001 5:20:40 PM EDT
[#17]
Also check out [url]www.sc.lp.org[/url], it's a great chance to do a lot at a local level.
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Posted: 5/24/2001 5:25:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Celt, I like your way of thinking. You may just be my new hero....Fullclip
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Posted: 5/24/2001 5:29:30 PM EDT
[#19]
Amen Liberty of 76, I also believe that it will take a moral revival within our country to where people begin to understand that they are the government if we go back to the founding fathers, and that our masters are not those in dc. I'm also afraid that to get there we will need to see a rebirth of the Declaration of Independence and then action to dispose our land of the king's men that dwell her now.
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Posted: 5/24/2001 5:40:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: I've been wrestling with this issue for a long time, Garandman. I wish, more than anything, that all or most all Repubs were conservative (a true one), LIKE RON PAUL. Ron Paul is the man! Let me give you a little hint: Ron Paul is a Libertarian who ran on the Republican ticket because too many people won't vote for what they believe, only for what's familiar. -Troy |
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Posted: 5/24/2001 6:49:41 PM EDT
[#21]
The trouble I have with most libertarians is all the high-falutin' pacifist horseshit that they usually spew forth. They support the 2nd Amendment, yet many are so special and good that they are above actually owning any guns themselves. Fuck them and their high-minded, latte drinking line of crap. They are only libertarians because it is fashionable. The only people I trust are the ones who stand up and prove that not only are they intelligent, but also that they've got a pair and aren't afraid to actually defend their rights.
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Posted: 5/24/2001 6:52:31 PM EDT
[#22]
If that's what you believe, then you don't understand the concept of liberty. Liberty means supporting the rights of others, even if you don't exercise those rights yourself. You're thinking like a DemoPub, unfortunately, which is "I only care about what *I* like."
-Troy |
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Posted: 5/24/2001 6:59:41 PM EDT
[#23]
trickshot if you find a candidate that fits your description of being trustworthy, and if he is viable (electable) let me know. Trouble is I doubt you will find one.
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Posted: 5/24/2001 7:00:34 PM EDT
[#24]
It does really look like the gun owner does not have political representation. All W. and his congressman have to do is not pass any legislation against and outlaw the wacko lawsuits and I would be happy. Instead he panders to the Soccer moms who are going to vote for Hilary no matter how much he bends over for them.
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Posted: 5/24/2001 9:40:06 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: They are only libertarians because it is fashionable. That is a good one. Since when has it been "fashionable" to be the constant whipping boy of the republicans for "throwing away votes" among a whole shitload of other whining accusations over and over again???? Have you ever thought that they are libertarians because they actually believe in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, unlike 2 other parties that view the founding documents as bargaining tools to be compromised away? |
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Posted: 5/24/2001 10:26:33 PM EDT
[#26]
Nothing meaningful is going to happen without LOTS of bloodshed, some of it ours. Ain't gonna happen soon, if ever. We are pissing in the wind discussing this every day. The few patriots around would be dead and forgotten in three days. "The Americans who once roared for freedom now whimper for security." --Dr. Norman Vincent Peale [:(]
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Posted: 5/24/2001 11:38:46 PM EDT
[#27]
beekeeper
sad but most likely true. who is Dr. Peale. excellent quote. i recently been strongly considering libertarian even though i HATE abortion. i really thought bush would turn gun rights around. i thought his comments about high caps was just talk to calm people who thought he would cater to the nra.(nra is part of the problem with project exile but i still support um because wtf you gonna do) but now i see he is following through and then some to try to get votes he is never going to get. the only way i beleive a revolt would be effective and feasable is for key freedom grabbers to be eliminated. JUDGES HOLD THE POWER. i'd much rather see it change peacefully but that seems to be getting further and further away. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 12:05:33 AM EDT
[#28]
Regarding libertarians not owning guns, there are a few who post here AND do own guns.
While I don't believe in abortion, I too have recently made the decision to become a libertarian. Yes, there are other things I don't believe in but I don't feel that making these things illegal will solve the real problem. Look at drug use. While I don't agree with the use of it, look at the problems caused by banning it. Has this really been effective? Wouldn't education be MORE effective? I've had similar thoughts about where things are headed and i'm VERY concerned, worried, but i'll still vote while I can and hope its not too late as the "last resort" is something none of us really wants but we may be drawn into. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 3:07:43 AM EDT
[#29]
1GUNRUNNER BTW, Celt what color is your dog? Plaid fullclip Celt, I like your way of thinking. You may just be my new hero....Fullclip Aw, shucks...I'll bet you say that to ALL the short, bald, Irish, right-wing, competitive shooting black belt guitar players you meet.... |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 4:06:29 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: garandman, come back...I'm interested in your perspective on your revelation. Celt - g-man here........... |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 5:18:35 AM EDT
[#31]
Gee this is a switch. It's nice to see US libertarians not getting bashed for a change. Maybe someday the rest of the "republicans" will wake up and see there is not a bit of difference between the Demonazi's and the republicans. They both want bigger government and as much of your money as they can get their hands on.
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Posted: 5/25/2001 5:31:33 AM EDT
[#32]
Abortion is a Constitutional issue. It does not need to be a moral issue. No one can be pro-abortion and uphold any part of the constitution.
"provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our POSTERITY, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." Posterity means that all those who are not born and not even conceived of have the same rights as we do. If we don't want to use the word posterity then we can always go to the point that if you consider a child in the womb to be alive then they have the same rights you and I do and it is our duty to protect them. As they are the defensless ones. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 5:33:23 AM EDT
[#33]
Abortion is a Constitutional issue. It does not need to be a moral issue. No one can be pro-abortion and uphold any part of the constitution.
"provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our POSTERITY, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." Posterity means that all those who are not born and not even conceived of have the same rights as we do. If we don't want to use the word posterity then we can always go to the point that if you consider a child in the womb to be alive then they have the same rights you and I do and it is our duty to protect them. As they are the defensless ones. |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 5:39:55 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Abortion is a Constitutional issue. No one can be pro-abortion and uphold any part of the constitution. "provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our POSTERITY, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." Posterity means that all those who are not born and not even conceived of have the same rights as we do. . Now theres an interesting thought. Don't know that I've ever heard it addressed that way before. Any of you "libertarians" care to address that one???? |
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Posted: 5/25/2001 5:57:07 AM EDT
[#35]
Thanks Garandman, I have not heard much about Ron Paul. I will enjoy a little more research.
I'm also glad to hear that there are a few more people that won't simply vote party but rather look at what candidate will do the most good. All of the parties have been correct on one or another issue. Don't resperct the person, respect their works. I agree with some of the other consensus here that the only thing that will restore the Constitution is bloodshed. Now i'm just starting to spew jumbled garbage cause I have too many thoughts on my mind and I don't want to write a thesis. [:)] |
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