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Posted: 8/28/2004 1:18:23 PM EST
Our second Civil War.

I read an op-ed piece in today’s Washington Post by Richard Holbrooke. While the article leans towards Kerry, it raised a couple good questions in my mind. Here on arfcom we have debated the issue of the global war on terror as being the beginning of WW-3. In today’s article Mr. Holbrooke puts forth the notion that the Viet Nam conflict was a form of Civil War on the home front 30 plus years ago. With Kerry and the Swiftboat Vets arguing over Viet Nam service, they have brought the issues of that time back to the attention of the American people.

While I was reading the article, it made me wonder: Are we seeing a non shooting or cold version of a Civil War between the Liberals/Democrats on the left, and the Republicans/Conservatives on the right? It has nothing to do with the “Race War” that had been predicted by conspiracy theorists, but yet it has everything to do with society as we know it. Issues like abortion, gun control, gay rights etc. The protesters are an example of the left’s soldiers as are the “anybody but Bush” crowd. The right has the Swiftboat Vets, Jerry Falwell, some of the folks here on this site. The country is in a power struggle. The right side seems to be saying “enough of this Politically Correct crap, lets do what’s right for the country.” The left is struggling to get back power to further their agenda, by bashing the president, and blaming him for the war on terror, Iraq, the AIDS epidemic, what ever they “feel” his has done wrong.

So what do you think, are we in a Civil War?
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 1:21:23 PM EST
Big difference between a power struggle and a civil war.

Anybody shootin' at you lately over a bumper sticker?
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 1:21:42 PM EST

So what do you think, are we in a Civil War?


NO
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 1:28:41 PM EST
No, a long way from that but the division ongoing in the country is disturbing and in my estimation the battle seems to be largely over how to interpret the Consitution. In general, conservatives seem to advocate freedom and responsibility. The libs, the opposite. Their policies have been an abysmal failure but they seem insistent on ignoring that.

If this contry's politics become more polarized then you may see Civil War. In truth it is really up to our leaders to prevent this. Yet they contribute to it in order to remain in power. Fear sells.

Just remember: We're the ones with the guns.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 1:30:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 1:40:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 1:47:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
No, a long way from that but the division ongoing in the country is disturbing and in my estimation the battle seems to be largely over how to interpret the Consitution. In general, conservatives seem to advocate freedom and responsibility. The libs, the opposite. Their policies have been an abysmal failure but they seem insistent on ignoring that.

If this country's politics become more polarized then you may see Civil War. In truth it is really up to our leaders to prevent this. Yet they contribute to it in order to remain in power. Fear sells.

Just remember: We're the ones with the guns.



Damn! that was profound, doc!

Last year I was reading a copy of a little financial flyer called the Elliot Wave Theorist. This 'chart' of the global economy supposedly has near mysitical predictive power. Anyway, they noted that the present wave (last 10 years or so) in the economy has led to a deeper polarization between competing ideologies. And although this was an economic wave, the polarization of ideas was clearly a reflection of political, social and moral thought. I think we have been seeing that more and more over the last few years.

I also believe that its not really the conservatives that are necessarily pushing the envelope. It is the nature of true conservative thought to be somewhat...uh...steadfast, unchanging. The left seems to desire maximal separation from conservative thought. One of the great drivers of this phenomenon is the breakdown of the news media monopoly that the left had for the last 50 years. Fox News, Limbaugh, Boortz and the like offer viable alternatives and flagrantly wave the hipocracy of the left in the air for all to see. And if it were all lies, it wouldn't matter; only the truth can infuriate to that degree. If conservativism ever gets a foothold in the education system (can you say school vouvhers?), its all over for liberalism (socialism, actually; not the original definition of liberalism).



Link Posted: 8/28/2004 1:49:45 PM EST
Why do you think the media and the Lib's use all the differences of people against us?

[anthrax]A house divided can't stand.... SCHIZM...SCH...SCH...SCHISM!!![/anthrax]


The original Weapon of Mass Entertainment!!
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 1:54:59 PM EST
A Cold Civil War?

Bilster
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 2:59:39 PM EST


So what do you think, are we in a Civil War?


NO
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 3:09:43 PM EST

"Civil War"? No.

But we've already had a Second American Revolution.

We lost.



Link Posted: 8/28/2004 3:10:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
america was very divided and polarized during vietnam.

it is not as polarized today as it was then.



Agreed.

IMHO, if a "civil" war erupts, it will begin over the Mexican border hemmorhage and the illegal alien exodous into this country. Many ranchers in the border states seem to be on the verge of taking up arms even as I type this, and I don't see the problem being solved anytime in the near future.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 3:11:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 3:28:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
"Civil War"? No.

But we've already had a Second American Revolution.

We lost.






Sounds dramatic; what're you talking about?
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 3:32:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By kill-9:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
"Civil War"? No.

But we've already had a Second American Revolution.

We lost.


Sounds dramatic; what're you talking about?

Here's a hint:




Link Posted: 8/28/2004 4:05:32 PM EST
I think eventually, as the left gets more shrill they may attempt to foment a civil war.
They tried it in the 60's; I think we're a long ways from that now, but an argument could be made that as we speak they're trying to terrorize NYC.
If the left keeps losing major elections, who knows?
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 4:15:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By kill-9:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
"Civil War"? No.

But we've already had a Second American Revolution.

We lost.


Sounds dramatic; what're you talking about?

Here's a hint:

members.cox.net/the-macallan/BlkPnthrsCornell_sm.jpg





So you gonna plan on winning the third, or what?
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 4:18:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 4:20:10 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 4:37:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Most people are neither firmly in the Democrat's or the Republican's camp on alll issues



I assume you mean everywhere but here.....I want to believe that, but have you tried saying anything slightly negative about Bush on this website lately? either someone accuses you of being someone named "improglio" or you are run out of here on a rail.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 4:39:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By TWIRE:


I also believe that its not really the conservatives that are necessarily pushing the envelope. It is the nature of true conservative thought to be somewhat...uh...steadfast, unchanging.



Yeah, and they attack the institutions and the things that conservatives value. It is their way to degrade us. They must first destroy what we believe in. God, honor, strength, country and family. Then they destroy the institutions. After they got God on the run it was time for marriage and family to go. Hell, they even had to rewrite history.
They've been very successful, you would all have to admit. Especially since the roots of this movement in socialism and their intent has been obvious from the start.


The left seems to desire maximal separation from conservative thought. One of the great drivers of this phenomenon is the breakdown of the news media monopoly that the left had for the last 50 years. Fox News, Limbaugh, Boortz and the like offer viable alternatives and flagrantly wave the hipocracy of the left in the air for all to see. And if it were all lies, it wouldn't matter; only the truth can infuriate to that degree.


Yup, the libs really hate that shit.
They've done a great job for conservatism.


If conservativism ever gets a foothold in the education system (can you say school vouvhers?), its all over for liberalism (socialism, actually; not the original definition of liberalism).



It will come to an end eventually anyhow. Always does as it simply doesn't work.
But I do think we are winning among the young. It is obvious where liberal policies have gotten us. The democrats cling to their loyal Roosevelt Democrats, regardless that todays Democratic Party is very different, and to the Hippy Generation. Not for too much longer.
Teachers are notoriously liberal these days and they protect the profession from conservatives as much as possible. You're right in saying that a few conservatives in a school could accomplish alot. Might happen more...
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 4:40:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By Tortfeasor:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Most people are neither firmly in the Democrat's or the Republican's camp on alll issues



I assume you mean everywhere but here.....I want to believe that, but have you tried saying anything slightly negative about Bush on this website lately? either someone accuses you of being someone named "improglio" or you are run out of here on a rail.



Yes I have!
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 4:43:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/28/2004 4:44:13 PM EST by drjarhead]

Originally Posted By Paul:
The Democrats were in power for 40 years and now the blance has come back a bit more toward the middle and those on the left are freaking.



Actually I'd say it has gone to the right a little. Problem now is the courts trump anything we try to change. It's gonna take awhile for that to change and we have to remain in power until then if we can.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 4:47:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
The Black Civil Rights movement was a 2nd Civil War that "we" lost?

Or do you mean that we lost Ithaca? We sure did, but it was to white liberals, not blacks.

We lost the Leftist-Revolution of the '60s that started in the '30s.

The Black Power movement was just one part of it.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 4:57:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
The Black Civil Rights movement was a 2nd Civil War that "we" lost?

Or do you mean that we lost Ithaca? We sure did, but it was to white liberals, not blacks.

We lost the Leftist-Revolution of the '60s that started in the '30s.

The Black Power movement was just one part of it.



Yeah, and they got to have their way for 2 generations. It didn't work out so well. That makes it our turn.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 5:02:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By TWIRE:

Teachers are notoriously liberal these days and they protect the profession from conservatives as much as possible. You're right in saying that a few conservatives in a school could accomplish alot. Might happen more...



I'm a teacher and sadly enough I agree. Bush came up with the first bit of proactive legislation re education I ever saw. No child left behind is FAR from perfect, but no one ever sugested anything different, except "throw money at it." However, I must say that many of the problems in schools today are not because of the system, but because of other issues that seem to be a biproduct of liberal drives. I am primarily refering to the degredation of the role of the family in the raising of the child. Schools are called on, more and more, to do things we are not qualified to do.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 5:05:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By drjarhead:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
The Black Civil Rights movement was a 2nd Civil War that "we" lost?

Or do you mean that we lost Ithaca? We sure did, but it was to white liberals, not blacks.

We lost the Leftist-Revolution of the '60s that started in the '30s.

The Black Power movement was just one part of it.



Yeah, and they got to have their way for 2 generations. It didn't work out so well. That makes it our turn.




Makes me think of this quote from a TIME article I read in the mazine earlier today on college conservative organizations(link)


But while professors may lean left, many students are tilting right — especially toward that brand of conservatism known as libertarianism. According to a well-regarded annual survey sponsored for the past 38 years by the American Council on Education, only 17% of last year's college freshmen thought it was important to be involved in an environmental program, half the percentage of 1992. A majority of 2003 freshmen--53%--wanted affirmative action abolished, compared with only 43% of all adults. Two-thirds of frosh favored abortion rights in 1992; only 55% did so in last year's survey. Support for gun control has slipped in recent years among the young, and last year 53% of students believed that "wealthy people should pay a larger share of taxes than they do now," compared with 72% 11 years earlier.

You might think that a general trend toward conservatism after 9/11 explains young people's rightward shift, but according to the Council on Education numbers, students actually began reconsidering liberal positions in the '90s. (Support for gun control didn't weaken until after 9/11, though.) Despite all those Girls Gone Wild (and now Guys Gone Wild) videos, young Americans are repositioning themselves not only on political but also on cultural matters. More than one-fifth of last year's freshmen said they never party, twice the percentage of 1987. More kids today say they want a military career, and more hope to be "very well off." We usually think of college students as more liberal than their parents, but on many political issues, today's kids share the views of their parents' generation — and on matters such as affirmative action and taxes, they are actually further right.





Link Posted: 8/28/2004 5:10:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/28/2004 5:11:36 PM EST by raven]

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
The Black Civil Rights movement was a 2nd Civil War that "we" lost?

Or do you mean that we lost Ithaca? We sure did, but it was to white liberals, not blacks.

We lost the Leftist-Revolution of the '60s that started in the '30s.

The Black Power movement was just one part of it.



I dont think we lost at all. The huge community here at Arfkom and the "silent majority" Nixon evoked (and he was completely right about) is a demonstration that Leftists have to march in the streets and scream at the top of their lungs in order to be heard, while sensible people are comfortable keeping their opinions to themselves and expressing them at the voting booth. And when no one cares or listens to what they say, they claim it's a systematic conspiracy of the conventional mainstream media that suppresses dissent.

The anguish of the Left after 9/11 wasn't over the loss of life and the serious blow dealt to America. It was that they couldn't continue their usual America-bashing without looking like utter traitors and defeatists. So they instead project their desires onto the Bush administration, claiming it was the Right that exploited 9/11 to further it's agenda, with irrelevant legislation like the Patriot Act and invasions of innocent rich countries like Afghanistan so pipeline rights could be secured for wealthy contributors.

Even at their convention, the Democrats attempted to present their image as a war party, and who better to lead a nation at war than a decorated war veteran? Especially when a CHICKENHAWK deserter leads us into war without the essential qualification of being in combat (set reality distortion fields to ignore Abe Lincoln and FDR). The fundamental contradictions will be apparent to anyone who pays the least bit of attention to politics.

The Left is on the run. And when Kerry loses, it's going to disillusion a lot more of them.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 5:11:31 PM EST

Anybody shootin' at you lately over a bumper sticker?



There are liberals at the office that get absolutely violent if you don't praise their values. Conservatives are called divisive if they do anything that shows their values, but liberals have free speech. Kind of a double standard.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 5:13:57 PM EST
I believe that it will be state against state, city against city and town against town. Mini civilwars and anarchy as incumbents push personal agendas that will eventually destory freedom and justice. It has already begun with certain states with their own AWB's, their views upon accepting gay marriges, ignoring federal mandates in education and much more to come. Soon Republicans will be forced into GOP only states and Democrats to their states. I truly believe that our representatives will slowly shred the constitution of our fore fathers. Another civil war? No, anihilation as all hell breaks loose with the collapse of the US government and we loose all humanity.

My 0.02, that is just the way I see it.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 5:35:03 PM EST
Saw a bumper sticker today that I *really* got over.

Along with a bunch of other leftist shit (and the obligiatory Kerry for President) sticker there was this "gem".

Defend America
Dump Bush

Fucking cockbite shitstains.

What the FUCK do you think that John Kerry will do to defend this nation?

These people are so far out of touch with the dangers that are out there for both this country and her citizens, they disgust me.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 1:30:29 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 9:19:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/29/2004 9:21:53 AM EST by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Aimless:
The Black Civil Rights movement was a 2nd Civil War that "we" lost?

Or do you mean that we lost Ithaca? We sure did, but it was to white liberals, not blacks.

We lost the Leftist-Revolution of the '60s that started in the '30s.

The Black Power movement was just one part of it.



Er so you were born after the 80s I take it?

No. I lived through the 60's revolution. Close enough to see the smoke from Detroit-burning '67.

Go visit Detroit today for comparison.

We lost.
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