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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/14/2005 10:27:14 AM EDT
Mandatory $100,000 fine for employing an illegal alien. No exceptions. If the immigration documents showed to the employer don't pass the "Aw, c'mon!" test, he pays the fine. Illegal immigration will soon dry up because no one will employ them.

Discuss.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 10:28:37 AM EDT
great idea, now try and find a senator to do anything with it.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 10:28:47 AM EDT
I would support that.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 10:36:39 AM EDT
Mandatory minimum six months imprisonment per infraction for all legaly liable parties involved. From the HR goober to the company executives.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 10:40:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 10:43:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
Who would water the lawns, cook and clean the dishes for all the rich Kalifornians?



The Chinee just like they used to do 20 years ago.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 10:44:53 AM EDT
I understand that it is a tough sell politically, but it is much simpler and cheaper than all of the "increased border surveillance" proposals. You can even include an "instant check" similar to the one used for firearms purchases. The employer calls a toll-free number, gives his Federal Employer ID Number and the SSN and name of the prospective employee. He receives an answer of "match" or "no match." Most of the illegals I've seen working are either using SSNs that don't match their name or have immigration documents that are pathetic forgeries.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 10:45:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
Who would water the lawns, cook and clean the dishes for all the rich Kalifornians?



Sgtar15
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 10:45:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Nimrod1193:
Mandatory $100,000 fine for employing an illegal alien. No exceptions. If the immigration documents showed to the employer don't pass the "Aw, c'mon!" test, he pays the fine. Illegal immigration will soon dry up because no one will employ them.

Discuss.



It would fail as soon as they started busting Mom and Pop for picking up some day laborers to do their yard. It might also mean that prices would go up on basic things like produce. Like it or not, we would have trouble finding regular Americans to do a lot of the things they do.

I would also ask how many times you have worked for cash, with no records of the employment. Just because there is some labor law doesn't mean that convenient arrangements go away.

I think the only real answer is to change the things that make them come here. Let me give you an example.

Years ago I met a woman who had come to the US illegally from Guatemala. The reasons she came were because there was no work in Guatemala and her children were basically starving. Also because crime was rampant, the political situation was the pits and no one could tell who would be the next one killed. She took a bus over dirt roads until her money ran out. Then she walked a few hundred miles with nothing but the clothes on her back. She was beaten and robbed by thugs along the way. She got to the Mexican border with no clue how she was going to get across but managed to find someone who would bring her across.

When she got here, she found minimum wage (or sometimes less) work, and sent every penny she could back home. She educated herself and learned English and, before too long, was making better money. The last time I talked to her she was taking community college classes, had become a supervisor where she works, and was studying to get her citizenship and bring her kids to the US.

If you were in her situation and your family was not eating and in serious peril where they were -- what would it take to stop you? What would you do if your family was living in a major shithole?

I think that, until those people can find some political and economic stability, and some kind of halfway decent life, there is no way on earth that we are going to stop them.

My plan is to take some of these countries, one or two at a time, and turn them into American states. Instead of some tin pot corrupt dictator taking over every so many years, they would have to elect an American governor subject to American law. That would be the beginning of more political stability, which would lead to economic stability, which would lead to fewer of those folks crowding the barrios of Los Angeles.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 10:46:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
Who would water the lawns, cook and clean the dishes for all the rich Kalifornians?



If you can afford to pay someone to water your lawn, you can afford to pay someone who is here legally.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 10:46:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Pangea:
Mandatory minimum six months imprisonment per infraction for all legaly liable parties involved. From the HR goober to the company executives.



So how many prisons would we have to build for every one that now exists to make that work? How many hundred thousand do you suppose would be convicted in the first year?
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 10:48:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Nimrod1193:

Originally Posted By vito113:
Who would water the lawns, cook and clean the dishes for all the rich Kalifornians?



If you can afford to pay someone to water your lawn, you can afford to pay someone who is here legally.



So what do you think the going rate would be if there were no illegals? Do you suppose it would be high enough that a lot of people would hire the illegal, anyway?
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 10:51:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 10:55:07 AM EDT
works for me.

Link Posted: 8/14/2005 11:08:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
It would fail as soon as they started busting Mom and Pop for picking up some day laborers to do their yard.



That is the point. No exceptions. It would only take that happening once or twice to dry up the labor pool for illegals fast.


It might also mean that prices would go up on basic things like produce. Like it or not, we would have trouble finding regular Americans to do a lot of the things they do.


It has been shown that labor costs are actually a small component of the cost of food. The claims of produce costing three times as much are bullshit.


I would also ask how many times you have worked for cash, with no records of the employment. Just because there is some labor law doesn't mean that convenient arrangements go away.


I haven't, but that's not the point. If you hire a citizen or a legal immigrant under the table, you are not in violation of this law.


I think the only real answer is to change the things that make them come here. Let me give you an example.

Years ago I met a woman who had come to the US illegally from Guatemala. The reasons she came were because there was no work in Guatemala and her children were basically starving. Also because crime was rampant, the political situation was the pits and no one could tell who would be the next one killed. She took a bus over dirt roads until her money ran out. Then she walked a few hundred miles with nothing but the clothes on her back. She was beaten and robbed by thugs along the way. She got to the Mexican border with no clue how she was going to get across but managed to find someone who would bring her across.

When she got here, she found minimum wage (or sometimes less) work, and sent every penny she could back home. She educated herself and learned English and, before too long, was making better money. The last time I talked to her she was taking community college classes, had become a supervisor where she works, and was studying to get her citizenship and bring her kids to the US.

If you were in her situation and your family was not eating and in serious peril where they were -- what would it take to stop you? What would you do if your family was living in a major shithole?.



There are legal means for people entering this country. If she comes in legally, I say "Welcome to America." If she doesn't, I say "Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out." If that makes me a heartless bastard, then so be it. By the way, she can't be studying for her citizenship if she is here illegally.


I think that, until those people can find some political and economic stability, and some kind of halfway decent life, there is no way on earth that we are going to stop them.


Yes we can, by making it economically impossible for them to live here.


My plan is to take some of these countries, one or two at a time, and turn them into American states. Instead of some tin pot corrupt dictator taking over every so many years, they would have to elect an American governor subject to American law. That would be the beginning of more political stability, which would lead to economic stability, which would lead to fewer of those folks crowding the barrios of Los Angeles.


Your kidding, right? Making Guatemala an American state would be a disaster. Instead of just the people from Guatemala who are here illegally being on the public dole, you would have all of them on the public dole? That is the single dumbest idea I have ever heard.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 11:08:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By Nimrod1193:

Originally Posted By vito113:
Who would water the lawns, cook and clean the dishes for all the rich Kalifornians?



If you can afford to pay someone to water your lawn, you can afford to pay someone who is here legally.



So what do you think the going rate would be if there were no illegals? Do you suppose it would be high enough that a lot of people would hire the illegal, anyway?



We've covered this territory before. Do you prpopse that colonizing South American countries would be easier than arresting and housing a few hundred people? How many chicken plant executives would it take before Pedro wouldn't be hired anymore? How many mom/pop companies would risk mom/pop going to the Graybar Motel for a few buck an hour savings?
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 11:11:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By Nimrod1193:

Originally Posted By vito113:
Who would water the lawns, cook and clean the dishes for all the rich Kalifornians?



If you can afford to pay someone to water your lawn, you can afford to pay someone who is here legally.



So what do you think the going rate would be if there were no illegals? Do you suppose it would be high enough that a lot of people would hire the illegal, anyway?



Unless the savings is greater than $100,000 per worker, I can guaran-damn-tee they won't.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 11:18:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
Who would water the lawns, cook and clean the dishes for all the rich Kalifornians?



poor citizens
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 11:23:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Nimrod1193:
Mandatory $100,000 fine for employing an illegal alien. No exceptions. If the immigration documents showed to the employer don't pass the "Aw, c'mon!" test, he pays the fine. Illegal immigration will soon dry up because no one will employ them.

Discuss.



It's to easy to get a fake social security card and drivers license.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 11:23:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Nimrod1193:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
It would fail as soon as they started busting Mom and Pop for picking up some day laborers to do their yard.



That is the point. No exceptions. It would only take that happening once or twice to dry up the labor pool for illegals fast.



No, more like it would just look terribly unjust. Not that Mom or Pop or the illegal alien would admit to it, anyway, so proving it would be tough.



It might also mean that prices would go up on basic things like produce. Like it or not, we would have trouble finding regular Americans to do a lot of the things they do.


It has been shown that labor costs are actually a small component of the cost of food. The claims of produce costing three times as much are bullshit.



Did anyone here make that claim? It doesn't take a 3-1 increase in the cost of something to make people mad.



I haven't, but that's not the point. If you hire a citizen or a legal immigrant under the table, you are not in violation of this law.



I would wager that most people have worked "off the payroll" a time or two in their lives. If someone hires an illegal alien to do their yard, how would you prove it? Nobody involved is going to testify.


There are legal means for people entering this country. If she comes in legally, I say "Welcome to America." If she doesn't, I say "Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out." If that makes me a heartless bastard, then so be it. By the way, she can't be studying for her citizenship if she is here illegally.


Well, that wasn't really the question. Yes, there are legal means, but she couldn't afford them, even if she could qualify.

The question was: What would you do if your family was living in a shithole like that? Would you let a little thing like a border and a few American laws stop you from improving your family's lot in life?


Yes we can, by making it economically impossible for them to live here.


Oh, yeaaaaah. One little law will repeal all the other laws of economics. Yeah, let me plunk down my bet on that one right now.



Your kidding, right? Making Guatemala an American state would be a disaster.



As opposed to having millions of them invade the US, I suppose.


Instead of just the people from Guatemala who are here illegally being on the public dole, you would have all of them on the public dole? That is the single dumbest idea I have ever heard.


No, there is more to the plan than that. For instance, have a ten-year transition period where they start abiding by US laws, instituting certain reforms, etc.

And maybe you didn't read the story about the one woman I met. She was motivated enough to risk her life on an uncertain journey of about 1,000 miles. She wasn't looking to go on the dole. She was here because she wanted a job.

What would you do if you were in her situation?
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 11:29:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Pangea:
We've covered this territory before. Do you prpopse that colonizing South American countries



Who said anything about colonizing anyone? Under my plan they would have to have at least a two-thirds vote that they wanted to do it themselves. El Salvador actually asked for it in the 1920s, for just the reasons I have stated.


would be easier than arresting and housing a few hundred people?


A few hundred? Geeez, I think you need to check your numbers again. Last I heard, there were "millions" of illegal aliens. You gotta figure there are more than a few hundred people employing them.


How many chicken plant executives would it take before Pedro wouldn't be hired anymore? How many mom/pop companies would risk mom/pop going to the Graybar Motel for a few buck an hour savings?


Seeing as how you could probably only afford a few hundred prosecutions, and there are apparently millions of people employing them -- and it would be damned hard to make any dent in the lower level employers, like yard work -- I think that the problem would just adjust itself to the law and go on.

As a general rule, any time someone comes up with a grand plan to prohibit something, thinking that will solve some major social problem, they are wrong far more often than they are right. As Penn said on the Bullshit show about gun control, if someone says there ought to be a law, there probably shouldn't.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 11:43:14 AM EDT
Let's see. On one hand we have the proposal to let poor assed third world knuckle draggers become states of the union with voting rights and WELFARE RIGHTS. On the other hand we have a proposal for prosecuting criminals and incarcerating them. I'm gonna have to go with option number two if that's the only choices available. I think we could afford more prisons easier.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 11:46:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Pangea:
Let's see. On one hand we have the proposal to let poor assed third world knuckle draggers become states of the union with voting rights and WELFARE RIGHTS. On the other hand we have a proposal for prosecuting criminals and incarcerating them. I'm gonna have to go with option number two if that's the only choices available. I think we could afford more prisons easier.



So how much would that cost? If you think it would cost less, let's see some numbers.

But let me ask you. If you were in the same situation as the woman I described and your family was starving in a dangerous shithole -- what would it take to stop you?
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 11:57:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

Originally Posted By vito113:
Who would water the lawns, cook and clean the dishes for all the rich Kalifornians?



poor citizens




Make the welfare recipients water the lawns, instead of getting paid to watch television.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 11:58:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2005 11:59:05 AM EDT by FN-TPS]
How bout, a $10.000.00 dollar fine for any landlord, who knowingly rents, sells or leases, any house, aptment or other domicile to an illegal alien. While we'er at it.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 11:59:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4Fanatic:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

Originally Posted By vito113:
Who would water the lawns, cook and clean the dishes for all the rich Kalifornians?



poor citizens




Make the welfare recipients water the lawns, instead of getting paid to watch television.



Actually, the best research done in California showed that the rate of fraud (people who could work but didn't) on welfare was around one percent.

Yeah, I know you will probably question that figure so let me tell you who did the research --- Ronald Reagan's administration, when he was governor of California.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 11:59:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
My plan is to take some of these countries, one or two at a time, and turn them into American states. Instead of some tin pot corrupt dictator taking over every so many years, they would have to elect an American governor subject to American law. That would be the beginning of more political stability, which would lead to economic stability, which would lead to fewer of those folks crowding the barrios of Los Angeles.

.



If you think California is bad taking in $3 for every $1 of Federal tax collected, wait until you see Mexico as a state. BAD idea!
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 12:02:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By Nimrod1193:
Mandatory $100,000 fine for employing an illegal alien. No exceptions. If the immigration documents showed to the employer don't pass the "Aw, c'mon!" test, he pays the fine. Illegal immigration will soon dry up because no one will employ them.

Discuss.



It would fail as soon as they started busting Mom and Pop for picking up some day laborers to do their yard. It might also mean that prices would go up on basic things like produce. Like it or not, we would have trouble finding regular Americans to do a lot of the things they do.

I would also ask how many times you have worked for cash, with no records of the employment. Just because there is some labor law doesn't mean that convenient arrangements go away.

I think the only real answer is to change the things that make them come here. Let me give you an example.

Years ago I met a woman who had come to the US illegally from Guatemala. The reasons she came were because there was no work in Guatemala and her children were basically starving. Also because crime was rampant, the political situation was the pits and no one could tell who would be the next one killed. She took a bus over dirt roads until her money ran out. Then she walked a few hundred miles with nothing but the clothes on her back. She was beaten and robbed by thugs along the way. She got to the Mexican border with no clue how she was going to get across but managed to find someone who would bring her across.

When she got here, she found minimum wage (or sometimes less) work, and sent every penny she could back home. She educated herself and learned English and, before too long, was making better money. The last time I talked to her she was taking community college classes, had become a supervisor where she works, and was studying to get her citizenship and bring her kids to the US.




I call bullshit on this, the system doesn't work that way, being an immigrant myself I think I have some knowledge in these matters.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 12:08:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lu380:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
My plan is to take some of these countries, one or two at a time, and turn them into American states. Instead of some tin pot corrupt dictator taking over every so many years, they would have to elect an American governor subject to American law. That would be the beginning of more political stability, which would lead to economic stability, which would lead to fewer of those folks crowding the barrios of Los Angeles.

.



If you think California is bad taking in $3 for every $1 of Federal tax collected, wait until you see Mexico as a state. BAD idea!



I wouldn't do all of Mexico at once. One section at a time for a country that big.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 12:09:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fourays2:
I call bullshit on this, the system doesn't work that way, being an immigrant myself I think I have some knowledge in these matters.



This was twenty-five years ago, and the laws have changed considerably over that period of time.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 12:55:55 PM EDT
If you were in her situation and your family was not eating and in serious peril where they were -- what would it take to stop you? What would you do if your family was living in a major shithole?

I wouldn't be having kids that I knew I couldn't feed in the first fucking place and second I would start an uprising and take my country back like we are going to do for the second time here it looks like.

As far as stopping it, by any means necessary. Walls, military, civilians, or landmines. Or seize all Pitbulls the dickheads want outlawed and put them on the border. All the rest of the border jumpers should be arrested and sent to the border and dumped over the wall to the other side. My family is my concern or problem, not every shit hole or shithead in the rest of the world. They already have half our jobs that closed up and moved to mehico so there is no excuse to leave from there but now they want the other half of the jobs here and our land. If somebody else wants to support them go ahead.
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