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Posted: 5/4/2001 8:12:33 AM EST
I was at lunch, and I thought of one more reason why I am justifiable in my reason of not wanting to serve in the Feds armed forces. Ok, here it is. As we all know, life in america has and is changing. The rights guaranteed in the Consitution are no longer protected, nor matter to government agents anymore. They will do to you what they please. Property rights? Right to consul? Right to arms? Are these protected anymore? Now, onto the right to bear arms part of the deal. (I would explain more, but works a calling) When this country was created, it was expected that every able body man of the republic do his part and defend this country. Everyone was part of the millita. SO, the second was born, and every citizen was able to own arms. Why? For the rights of being a citizen, it was your duty to defend it also. Now, look at whats going on today. It gets harder for americans each day to own arms. Each day, government ignores the highest laws of the land, and makes rules to overide them. Since they are not playing by the same rules, why does a citizen have to keep on playing by them? More important, when does it become "OK" for a citizen to say "No" and say I won't go? When does it become possible for them not to go? If they are expected to defend the republic, and at the same time they are unable to bear arms as a citzien, when does their duty stop?? Just a thought, c-rock [url]www.illinois-shooter.org
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 8:17:38 AM EST
good thought
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 8:57:02 AM EST
BS, you live in this country, therefore you defend it. I would much more fight overseas than in my hometown or yours. This sounds like an excuess for a coward to me. Rew
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 9:06:57 AM EST
It's not the government you would be fighting for, you idiot. It's the country. Norm Glitz
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 9:10:44 AM EST
Interesting, I've been thinking about the same thing myself. The US governement won't trust its soldiers with their own weapons and factions of the government are trying to disarm America's citizens. Join up and you may be sent off to some third world sheet hole as part of a UN "peace keeping" force to strip their citizens of their right to self protection in order to shine light up someone like Bill Clinton's arse. Meanwhile these SOB's will hold a meeting here on our soil very soon to formulate a strategy to further disarm us.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 9:12:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By Norm G: It's not the government you would be fighting for, you idiot. It's the country. Norm Glitz
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Sure, just like Somalia and Haiti and Kosovo.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 9:14:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By 80906: BS, you live in this country, therefore you defend it. I would much more fight overseas than in my hometown or yours. This sounds like an excuess for a coward to me. Rew
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If I go to a place like nam, the gulf, or asia, how am I defending my country?? A coward is a person that wont fight for nothing, I am not saying that. I fight for a lot of things, but going to kill Chinesse so that McD's can build a store is not my idea of serving my country. Calling me a coward cause you can't think of anything better does not work to good either. The consitution is a contract between citizens and its government. That contract keeps on getting broken by one of the parties. When does the citizen have the ability not to be binded to his duties? c-rock
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 9:14:18 AM EST
[b]BS, you live in this country, therefore you defend it. I would much more fight overseas than in my hometown or yours. This sounds like an excuess for a coward to me. Rew[/b] I think the point is if the government is taking away our rights why should we have to serve and protect our country. when we our losing our rights. thats was the idea of serving our country is to keep our rights and the constitution. when i took my oath to serve and defend our constituion, and if i remember correctly this means 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc! amendment's and not for some G.I. bill. from what happening to our freedoms. i think too if people stop joining the military they will make it mandatory to serve. just my 02 cents worth.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 9:16:19 AM EST
This nation is no longer a Constitutional Republic, thanks to the many shysters and politicians whose only loyalties are to money and power. The only fighting you will be doing is to ensure that some fat cat elitist can buy a new summer mansion in the Bahamas.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 9:25:01 AM EST
Interesting, [b]I've been thinking about the same thing myself. The US governement won't trust its soldiers with their own weapons and factions of the government are trying to disarm America's citizens. Join up and you may be sent off to some third world sheet hole as part of a UN "peace keeping" force to strip their citizens of their right to self protection in order to shine light up someone like Bill Clinton's arse. Meanwhile these SOB's will hold a meeting here on our soil very soon to formulate a strategy to further disarm us.[/b] Right on!!! when i went in the army sure i would fight! but its nothing but a big FAT hairy [s]pussy[/s] lie!
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 9:25:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By Norm G: It's not the government you would be fighting for, you idiot. It's the country. Norm Glitz
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How are those "trainers" in Colombia fighting for their fellow americans? How about those in Kosovo? Why should I fight for a Country that gave Al Gore the popular vote? OR for a group of people in which less than 50% of the people that could vote, did?
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 9:31:30 AM EST
"Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens), the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake; since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defence against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation, and excessive dislike of another, cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real Patriots, who may resist the intrigues of the favorite, are liable to become suspected and odious; while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests. The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations, is, in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests, which to us have none, or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves, by artificial ties, in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities. Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off, when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon, to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel. Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice? `Tis our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world; so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs, that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat it therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But, in my opinion, it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them. Taking care always to keep ourselves, by suitable establishments, on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies." -George Washington
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 11:25:20 AM EST
[b] He was my brother and that is why I went back for him, that is why I lost my legs, because he is my brother and I was not goig to let him die alone in a jungle[/b] -A Veteran
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 11:29:42 AM EST
Fight so armed agents can disobey their own laws? c-rock FTB Agents Point Guns At Unarmed Workers Just as one would expect from Nazi Germany during World War II, California tax "authorities" (Franchise Tax Board) drew their weapons and held them on innocent workers' heads at NTD Electronics of Huntington Beach, California, on May 2rd, 2001. NTD is owned by George and Trina Jesson. The workers were then held at gunpoint and were not allowed to leave or use the bathroom for an extended period of time. Mrs. Jesson also had a gun held to her head. Apparently, a lady who is 4' 9" who weighs only 90 lbs. is somehow a threat to them. At Mr. Jesson's home, in Huntington Beach, Mr. Jesson's housekeeper Francisca, was afraid to open the front door, so the FTB illegally broke the door down. They then proceeded to rummage through Mr. Jesson's possessions and stole his bank documents, statements, and even his son's coin collection was confiscated. They also tried to take his guns, but they couldn't get a "marshall" to go along with that action. Click to see full-sized Mr. Jesson stated that the warrant was dated 5-1-2000 so the FTB couldn't even get the date right. Technically, Mr. Jesson's home was entered without a valid warrant. They didn't even bother to get a corrected warrant with the right date. They even took property that wasn't included in their defective warrant. None of the agents involved allowed themselves to be identified. Only one agent showed Mr. Jesson his badge and the rest of the agents refused to identify themselves. Mr. Jesson's company is one of many companies who are refusing to withhold income and employment taxes from their workers paychecks. This position is also taken by me at my firm, Cencal Aviation Products. Upon a very careful study of the U.S.C. Title 26 both Mr. Jesson and I have concluded that these so-called "laws" do not apply to those of us who live and work within the 50 union states. All of the withholding codes refer to federal workers for Subtitle C and nonresident aliens, foreign corporations, and foreign exempt corporations in Subtitle A. At approximately 1:20 PM, May 2, 2001, David Cay Johnston from the New York Times(Pravda on steroids), phoned me to inform me that Mr. Jesson's home and business was being raided. Mr. Johnston continues to deny the facts of the income tax issue but insists on escalating the situation by asking me how I'm going to deal with going to prison for 10-11 years. He also asked me if my business had been raided, and I indicated that it hadn't. This is a stunning example of psycho-politics and the arrogant use of terror to try to reign in the "employers" who have stopped withholding. All of us have patiently requested information from these so-called tax agencies, both federal and state, and all have refused our respectful requests. Their answer is simple, if we don't comply they are going to put guns to our heads. Our governments, both federal and state are out of control. When these agencies don't have the decency to comply with the written law, or try to answer respectful questions, then we indeed have tyranny. What we now have is official anarchy with no visible respect for our Constitutional rights, nor do they appear to have any respect for their own tax codes. 'You pay or we'll blow you away.' That's the message from the FTB. This FTB action is treason against the Constitution of the United States of America.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 11:33:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By satcong: [b] He was my brother and that is why I went back for him, that is why I lost my legs, because he is my brother and I was not goig to let him die alone in a jungle[/b] -A Veteran
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How about those Veteran Bonus Marchers back in the 30's? How about the Vets in Nam that got dixoin dumped on them? Didn't the government let them die alone? How about the gulf vets?? Where are they now? How does the federal government treat its Vets that fight and die for them? They dont mind having you carry a M16 for them 3000 miles away, but to have that same rifle in your own home is a different story. c-rock
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 11:35:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bigshooter:
Originally Posted By Norm G: It's not the government you would be fighting for, you idiot. It's the country. Norm Glitz
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Sure, just like Somalia and Haiti and Kosovo.
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EXACTLY. I would defend my country to the death.GLADLY. But I WOULD NOT go and die for some FUBAR United Nations peacekeeping / nationon building exercise, especially one that I had a moral disagreement with. The context here is if I were drafted. that said, I believe that those who are IN the military CURRENTLY have a chain of command responsibility to obey their superiors WHEREVER they would send them. THAT said, I still beleive a soldier has a right to "conscientiously object." But if you are gonna, BE A MAN ABOUT IT, and take your lumps, and report to the brig, don't go runnin' to Canada or England like Slick Willie did.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 12:00:44 PM EST
There is not one politician nor has there been for 100 years who has defended the constitution in it's original un-prostituted state. I have met 3 people in my entire life who understand what is wrong with our country today and how communism is spreading rampant under the guise of socialism. They do not fight nor value their liberty now, they do not prepare by purchasing food storage, getting out of debt or becoming proficient in firearm usage. This is what our country is made up of today. And so this is our country. Will I defend this apathetic country by joining the military? NO! As a body they do not represent me, the Constitution does. When the SHTF I will defend my family and those who tried to prepare and protect their liberty from everyone and every thing who endangers them. But when people are brought to their knees realizing how they helped give away our liberty then I will help to restore the Constitution and fight for the reestablished country.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 12:30:35 PM EST
Ubelievable. Just amazing....garandman once again perfectly states my position. [i]Give me a chance.[/i]
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 12:38:48 PM EST
It just sounds like BS excuses to me. Ask any of us old timers about rights we didn't have but still got drafted and served in the military. If you don't want to be patriotic you'll be able to justify any excuse. Since the founding of this country young men have had the chance to justify not serving. But the fact that we have a country goes to show that most young men didn't hold your beliefs and served and fought to preserve our nation.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 12:39:10 PM EST
newdeal. I whole heartidly agree with your post. Good post.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 12:45:32 PM EST
One should not think country and government to be the same. these are two different things, do not confuse them. i would fight and die for my country(american ideals, not people), but not "my" government. if the two act in accordance with one another that is fine. i would not fight and die for people (generally speaking) because they would never appreciate it. of course if it was someone i personally cared about than that would be different. martyr lib
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 12:55:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bootedaddy: It just sounds like BS excuses to me. Ask any of us old timers about rights we didn't have but still got drafted and served in the military. If you don't want to be patriotic you'll be able to justify any excuse. Since the founding of this country young men have had the chance to justify not serving. But the fact that we have a country goes to show that most young men didn't hold your beliefs and served and fought to preserve our nation.
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I'm sorry, but what unadulterated horseshit! Ever think there is a reason we might sound "unpatriotic"? I believe everyone on here loves this country, but this government has grown out of control. Let me present a hypothetical. What if the military was ordered to fight against American citizens. Would it be unpatriotic to blindly enlist and follow orders?
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 12:58:05 PM EST
I would fight for my country in a heartbeat, but fighting for your country and doing Uncle Sammy's bidding are two very different things now.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 12:58:33 PM EST
To:Bootedaddy you "old timers" are just as responsible for the gradual decline of this nation as the younger generation. patriotic my arse!! as said earlier how would dying defending other nation perserve ours. half the countries we defend dont even like us, mush less are socialist to boot. its also my fault too! im not doing enough. are you? so you seved in the military. i assume you would die to protect the constitution, but what are you doing now? what excuses do you make to not donate more money to pro american causes? to not get involved with pro-constitution organizations? do you help teach kids about their constitutional freedoms? serving in the military is not enough!!! seving in the military alone will not protect the bill of rights. to be a "patriot" you should be doing more and not making more excuses. one pissed-off lib[:(!]
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 2:11:15 PM EST
Some of you people make me sick. Sure our country is messed-up and has it problems,but name me one country thats better off.None of you can deny the fact that even with our problems we are still THE GREATEST COUNTRY on the face of the earth. I don't believe we should fight peoples' wars for them but we do need to help those that can't defend themselves.We went to Vietnam to help a people to remain free,even though the lines got blurred. C-rock you whine about how you woult'nt serve your country because they are taking away your rights,well what did YOU ever do to EARN those rights,the fact is some poor sap had to die to keep the constitution in place.You just can't decide not to serve because you don't like the way things are going,what about alot of the guys in uniform? They don't like it anymore than you,but at least when the get out the can say they served their country
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 3:02:13 PM EST
to sigman: people do not EARN rights!!!!!!! they are born with them what makes this country great are its ideals, not its name. the ideals that make this country great are in grave danger. sure the US is better than a lot of other countries, but for how long? if i could go off somewhere and form my own country with american ideals i would. we do not "need" to help those who cant defend themselves. it is however okay to help other people help themselves. as far as vietnam were concerned the line was blurry to begin with. i side with the founding fathers when the warned this country not to get involved with the affairs of other nations. obviously fighting communism with military strengh could not keep it poison from damaging america. we lost the cold war because we could not fight it mentally. pro-military, but tired of military elitists who thump their chest. i have met several pro-socialist military personal. what does that mean? that just because someone who serves our country (government) believes in freedom? give me a break!! tired of military elitist crap lib...just stand up for your G-d-given rights!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 3:21:33 PM EST
My only argument is that I have a hard time understanding why a country as great as ours, will trust any numbnut over 18 with a M16a2 to protect the interests of the country, yet that same country will not trust that same individual with a semi-auto AR15 to protect his own family. Just my $.02
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 3:50:37 PM EST
Well boo hoo, if you've got another country in mind that's so much better don't let the door hit you in the ass.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 6:15:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By sigman: Some of you people make me sick. Sure our country is messed-up and has it problems,but name me one country thats better off.None of you can deny the fact that even with our problems we are still THE GREATEST COUNTRY on the face of the earth. I don't believe we should fight peoples' wars for them but we do need to help those that can't defend themselves.We went to Vietnam to help a people to remain free,even though the lines got blurred. C-rock you whine about how you woult'nt serve your country because they are taking away your rights,well what did YOU ever do to EARN those rights,the fact is some poor sap had to die to keep the constitution in place.You just can't decide not to serve because you don't like the way things are going,what about alot of the guys in uniform? They don't like it anymore than you,but at least when the get out the can say they served their country
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Earn? whats there to earn?? I thought I was born with them. I am from the USA. I am not wining. I am saying a arguement that needs to be said. You all do not like it when people park little yellow Ryder trucks next to court houses, so what would make you say "no" like me. I feel you could get to where I am now, before you got to the former. c-rock
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 6:18:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bootedaddy: Well boo hoo, if you've got another country in mind that's so much better don't let the door hit you in the ass.
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I was born here, I plan on staying here for the rest of my life. I not leaving, where am I supposed to go to? I can take my Ar15 with me. c-rock
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:07:13 PM EST
HKocher, I'm a conservative. But I would say that a liberals view would be that, when some 18 year old is in the military there is a chain of command that rides herd over them. As opposed to a civilian who is not supervised by a "compitent" chain of command.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:36:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By c-rock:
Originally Posted By Bootedaddy: Well boo hoo, if you've got another country in mind that's so much better don't let the door hit you in the ass.
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I was born here, I plan on staying here for the rest of my life. I not leaving, where am I supposed to go to? I can take my Ar15 with me. c-rock
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What a revelation. You like the advantages of living here, you don't want to leave. You enjoy owning the firearms you have, but this country isn't worth fighting for because it's not perfect. No it isn't perfect, but as a group banded together possibly we could change things. Then again maybe we won't. I don't disagree with what you said about the errosion of our constitutional rights. But if you can out right say you wouldn't fight for the country that you want to live in then is anything worth fighting for?
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 8:24:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By jack: HKocher, I'm a conservative. But I would say that a liberals view would be that, when some 18 year old is in the military there is a chain of command that rides herd over them. As opposed to a civilian who is not supervised by a "compitent" chain of command.
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Well, I guess that's my problem with liberals. If you can't trust me to take my AR to the range and pop off at paper all day long, than why the hell should I go to war and fight a bunch of Chicoms (most likely our next opponent) so your beach home in Kali won't have a tactical nuke dropped in the back yard. For the record, I'm pro-military. I do not have any military experience, athough my family has veterans. I suppose I am still of age that if some bad stuff went down, I could get called to fight, and if that happened, I would defend my country without a second thought. However, I do have a problem defending the rights of those that don't respect my rights. If I can take up arms for my country, my country should not infringe my right to take up arms to protect my family against the gangbanger/rapist/thief that may decide to come into my home, or my vehicle, or accost me on the streets. I agree with c-rock, we are born with certain rights. These rights were given to us by those that died before us, but I don't believe we have to earn those rights. If that were true that would take away the whole meaning of those that died to give us those rights. There is nothing I despise more than a person or organization that does not TRUST me with my rights as an individual.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 5:22:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/5/2001 5:24:01 AM EST by c-rock]
What a revelation. You like the advantages of living here, you don't want to leave. You enjoy owning the firearms you have, but this country isn't worth fighting for because it's not perfect. No it isn't perfect, but as a group banded together possibly we could change things. Then again maybe we won't. I don't disagree with what you said about the errosion of our constitutional rights. But if you can out right say you wouldn't fight for the country that you want to live in then is anything worth fighting for?
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I never said for my country, I said for my government. Yes, I will not leave. I would face the consquenses of my actions. I would not be like the baby boomers and leave for Canada. I won't leave my rifle behind. You agree with seeing your rights get eroded, so why fight to keep those in power that would take more after the war was won? Why fight for Hillary to take the white house in 2008? What happen if a war broke out under her, would you serve a women that would totally work to disarm you in your own home? I would be burning my draft card in the streets. c-rock
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 6:00:00 AM EST
I spent my time with the military in the 70's. Things were different then. I would now fight for nothing more than this 40 acres I live on. One world government, a new world order, the UN can kiss my ass. We are being sold out by our own politicians. Our government is corrupt at all levels. And no, there is probably no better place on earth than the U.S., which makes it even more disturbing. There is no place to run or hide in this day and time. I make my stand on this mere 40 acres.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 10:56:49 AM EST
[b]for those who fight for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.[/b] --speaks volumes, don't it?
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 11:31:50 AM EST
The New World Order bureaucrats in Wahington look upon the US Military as useful idiots to be manipulated with foolish "patriotic" platitudes into being the cannon fodder/storm troopers of the global machine. They could care less our American soldiers or the US Constitution. The war against Yugoslavia is a classic example.Are you really proud of the US pilots bombing a people involved in their own civil war and killing many innocent civilians in the process. If someone did that to us, you would be raging against such a thing. We must state our values and hold to them. The Constitution is a good place to start. We have no right to order our own young men to die for the purpose of settling a problem in a distant land that no one can settle but the local people themselves. I went one time believing in a cause and it was all a f--king lie. My son is my treasure and I pray he never serves the corrupt, Federal, tyrannical, Waco murdering government. I would be proud , however, if he fought to defend our Constitution or our once again lawful nation. Curse the damned Washington traitors!!!!Pray for peace and justice.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 11:49:27 AM EST
Yes satcong it truly does. SFC(ret) Rew E. Williams
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