Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 9/6/2004 8:21:20 AM EST
Check this out if your at all interested in what happened in Beslan and how Chechen terrorists are trying to spread their crap throughout that regionLook here...
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 8:28:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2004 8:28:19 AM EST by DK-Prof]
Doesn't the conflict originally go all the way back to Stalin.

I thought I remembered reading somewhere that he pretty much tried to "ethnically cleanse" (to use the hip buzz-word of the day) Chenchya, and sent a lot of the Chechnyans off to rot somewhere - replacing them with russians (much like they tried to do with some of the Baltic states too, udner the USSR), and that now in the last decade a lot of them (I guess their kids or grandkids) are returning as "freedom fighters"


Might not be true - but I do remember seeing it somewhere.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 8:39:54 AM EST
There is no question the Russians treated them like shit. Stalin exported them to where they are now. About 25% of the population was killed off. They have run over prisoners with tanks, execuated people without trials.

But the school attack is a new low and gives the Russians the higher moral ground. They basically now have a blank check to go in and cause some real trouble.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 8:41:52 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 8:43:11 AM EST
Wasn't it Kruschev that started letting them return to where they are now? I had thought Stalin sent them to Siberia.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 8:47:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2004 9:06:46 AM EST by CAMPYBOB]
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 8:51:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
It goes back before Stalin, to the Tsars.



And it even goes back before that, to the Jihad conquests.

With the notable exception of Indonesia and some parts of Central Africa, everywhere that is considered territory of Islam got that way by conquest and genocide.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 9:04:01 AM EST
Well, their shooting children in the back has really led me to sympathize with the Chechen cause.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 9:09:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
I had thought Stalin sent them to Siberia.



Correct!
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 9:17:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By raven:
Well, their shooting children in the back has really led me to sympathize with the Chechen cause.


+1
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 9:26:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2004 9:27:33 AM EST by RiffRandall]

Originally Posted By W-W:

Originally Posted By raven:
Well, their shooting children in the back has really led me to sympathize with the Chechen cause.


+1



+2 If they stuck to defending themselves against Russian invaders I'd still sympathize with them. Attacking non military/political targets doesn't win you any friends. The radical nutjob followers of a certain religion that shall remain nameless aren't helping their cause.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 9:28:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By RiffRandall:

Originally Posted By W-W:

Originally Posted By raven:
Well, their shooting children in the back has really led me to sympathize with the Chechen cause.


+1



+2 If they stuck to defending themselves against Russian invaders I'd still sympathize with them. Attacking non military/political targets doesn't win you any friends. The radical nutjob followers of a certain religion that shall remain nameless aren't helping their cause.



Are you kidding? It wins you Nobel Peace Prizes


Link Posted: 9/6/2004 9:38:08 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 9:39:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By RiffRandall:

Originally Posted By W-W:

Originally Posted By raven:
Well, their shooting children in the back has really led me to sympathize with the Chechen cause.


+1



+2 If they stuck to defending themselves against Russian invaders I'd still sympathize with them. Attacking non military/political targets doesn't win you any friends. The radical nutjob followers of a certain religion that shall remain nameless aren't helping their cause.



Are you kidding? It wins you Nobel Peace Prizes

www.israel-wat.com/nobelprize.jpg



Of course! I should have qualified that remark. It doesn't win you any friends among sane, non collectivist Americans (or non weenie Europeans). Fruity left wing eurotrash & 3rd world shitbags are another thing.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 12:22:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2004 12:40:31 PM EST by PaDanby]
It's not the only way they KNOW how to fight back, it's the only way they have to fight back. Although, killing women and children isn't the right way. They should be limiting their strikes to military targets, that increases their political effect and embarasses the Russians even more.

With a half-Serbian and Irish wife and having English, Irish, Scottish blood on my side I can assure you these internecine quarrels can go on for centuries, the ethnically same but different religions aspect is there. The Chechenss/Ingustians being Moslem and the Ossetians/"Russians" being orthodx Christians. (Across the Black Sea the Serbs, Orthodox Christians, the Croats Catholic Christians and the Bosnians and certain others Moslems, all of whom are ethnically related "Yugo" or South Slavs.

And the Ossetians (that part of "Russia" where this actually occured) have also tried to split from Mother Russia , so I expect the Russians in Moscow didn't worry too much if they got killed in the process either. I can recall hearing about "Ossetian" bandits in the late 80's and early '90s causing Anti-Soviet dissension. And "North" Ossetia is part of the russian Federation, and "South" Ossetia is claimed by Georgia. And both Russia and Georgia claim all of "Ossetia" that the locals are diputing, so it is a really screwed up area.

From Rand Corporation
www.rand.org/publications/CF/CF129/CF-129.chapter1.html

1. Ossetia-Ingushetia
by Alan Ch. Kasaev*
Introduction
The conflict between Ossetia and Ingushetia that exploded on October 30-November 6, 1992 was the first large-scale ethnic war on the territory of the newly-reconstituted Russian Federation. The basic source of this conflict was the prolonged dispute between the local populations and authorities of North Ossetia and Ingushetia concerning the administrative status of the Prigorodny region. The immediate precipitant was the unwise application of the Russian "state of emergency" statute in the Prigorodny region of North Ossetia (now the Alanlya Republic of North Ossetia). After the bloodshed subsided and the conflict dissipated, the Russian government faced problems that it had never dealt with, or even thought about, before. These included:

* defining the legal status and organizing the return of refugees and displaced peoples;

* restoring residential areas and vital infrastructures that its forces had destroyed; and

* re-establishing political and socio-psychological bonds between and among the diverse peoples of the Russian Federation and between the federal government and subjects of the federation.

Historical Origins
To understand the fundamental sources of the conflict that broke out between the Ossetian and Ingushetian communities in the fall of 1992, and the circumstances that led the Russian leadership to suppress the unrest by force, we need to briefly examine the history of Ossetian-Ingushetian relations. Until 1917, these relations were relatively calm and stable.

"Relatively calm and stable" may mean that there were enough Crimean Tartars policing the area to keep things down to a low boil.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 12:38:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 12:55:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 1:33:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By raven:
Well, their shooting children in the back has really led me to sympathize with the Chechen cause.



Deliberately shoot kids, forfeit your grievance. Then you die. End of story.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 1:51:32 PM EST

We are used to modern European war where civilians are mostly respected and not murdered. Politics and power are behind the wars we are familiar with. Well, this time it's not about political ideology or individual freedom. This is life or death where the bad guys want you and yours dead, nothing else.

This latest incident is what war was long ago when the purpose was often to slaughter everyone, women and children included. I don't believe they had any other intension but to kill the children in the end. They want the Russians dead just like they want Americans and Europeans dead.

They are not trying to convert you by killing your children. They don't want your resources, money, land, or respect. They don't care if you got scared, felt terror for a moment, or will suffer a lifetime of grief. They just want you dead. That's because it's a different kind of war.

I believe the reason they did not slaughter the children immediately was for show. But not a show for you, the Russians, or the television world. It was meant to show others like them what to do and how to do it. A television lesson on how to kill your enemies children. That's why I expect more of this.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 1:56:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By the:

Originally Posted By raven:
Well, their shooting children in the back has really led me to sympathize with the Chechen cause.



Deliberately shoot kids, forfeit your grievance. Then you die. End of story.



And when both sides do it, you just call it a casualty of war, look at the whole thing and say 'Not Our Problem'...

Which is, fortunately, what the USA has done...
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 2:03:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By PaDanby:
It's not the only way they KNOW how to fight back, it's the only way they have to fight back. Although, killing women and children isn't the right way. They should be limiting their strikes to military targets, that increases their political effect and embarasses the Russians even more.

With a half-Serbian and Irish wife and having English, Irish, Scottish blood on my side I can assure you these internecine quarrels can go on for centuries, the ethnically same but different religions aspect is there. The Chechenss/Ingustians being Moslem and the Ossetians/"Russians" being orthodx Christians. (Across the Black Sea the Serbs, Orthodox Christians, the Croats Catholic Christians and the Bosnians and certain others Moslems, all of whom are ethnically related "Yugo" or South Slavs.

And the Ossetians (that part of "Russia" where this actually occured) have also tried to split from Mother Russia , so I expect the Russians in Moscow didn't worry too much if they got killed in the process either. I can recall hearing about "Ossetian" bandits in the late 80's and early '90s causing Anti-Soviet dissension. And "North" Ossetia is part of the russian Federation, and "South" Ossetia is claimed by Georgia. And both Russia and Georgia claim all of "Ossetia" that the locals are diputing, so it is a really screwed up area.

From Rand Corporation
www.rand.org/publications/CF/CF129/CF-129.chapter1.html

1. Ossetia-Ingushetia
by Alan Ch. Kasaev*
Introduction
The conflict between Ossetia and Ingushetia that exploded on October 30-November 6, 1992 was the first large-scale ethnic war on the territory of the newly-reconstituted Russian Federation. The basic source of this conflict was the prolonged dispute between the local populations and authorities of North Ossetia and Ingushetia concerning the administrative status of the Prigorodny region. The immediate precipitant was the unwise application of the Russian "state of emergency" statute in the Prigorodny region of North Ossetia (now the Alanlya Republic of North Ossetia). After the bloodshed subsided and the conflict dissipated, the Russian government faced problems that it had never dealt with, or even thought about, before. These included:

* defining the legal status and organizing the return of refugees and displaced peoples;

* restoring residential areas and vital infrastructures that its forces had destroyed; and

* re-establishing political and socio-psychological bonds between and among the diverse peoples of the Russian Federation and between the federal government and subjects of the federation.

Historical Origins
To understand the fundamental sources of the conflict that broke out between the Ossetian and Ingushetian communities in the fall of 1992, and the circumstances that led the Russian leadership to suppress the unrest by force, we need to briefly examine the history of Ossetian-Ingushetian relations. Until 1917, these relations were relatively calm and stable.

"Relatively calm and stable" may mean that there were enough Crimean Tartars policing the area to keep things down to a low boil.



Correct.

For those of you who think it's as simple as 'Muslims vs.', see above...

We are looking at a war very similar to the Yugoslav Civil War or Somolia... It was to be expected with the fall of the USSR that the various 'bits' would disentangle rather violently...

As haneous & atrocious as these local/regional conflicts are to a culture used to the Geneva Conventions and 'civilized' war, in the end they are best left to the original combatinants...

Centuries of hate on all sides leads to a war fought more like a mob vendetta than a proper campaign (although in the beginning, they actually fought the war as proper revolutionaries, only in the 2nd war did they become revolutionary terrorists)...

Examples abound worldwide of similar brutality in the name of 'revolution', across all religeous & ethnic lines...
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 2:28:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
... in the end they are best left to the original combatinants...




Too late. Russian officials said 9 or 10 Arabs were among the dead.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 2:35:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By the:

Originally Posted By raven:
Well, their shooting children in the back has really led me to sympathize with the Chechen cause.



Deliberately shoot kids, forfeit your grievance. Then you die. End of story.



And when both sides do it, you just call it a casualty of war, look at the whole thing and say 'Not Our Problem'...

Which is, fortunately, what the USA has done...



Uh, Dave...there is a HUGE difference between ACCIDENTALLY killing civilians during combat, and DELIBERATELY targeting civilians...
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 2:35:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By Robert2011:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
... in the end they are best left to the original combatinants...




Too late. Russian officials said 9 or 10 Arabs were among the dead.



So 10% of the group was foreign... It is still a local war, that operation was ordered by a local commander...

Still not worth getting involved in it...

Just like we will not get militarily involved in the Sudan, or in Congo, or any of the 30-40 odd similar conflicts around the world...

We have our own war to fight, Russia has decided they will not help, we have no obligation to them, and no reason to help anyway...

Now, if Russia is attacked by Syrian Islamic Jihad and we need an excuse to oust Bashir Assad, then fine, we can 'help' Russia by attacking Syria.

But as long as it's Russians vs Chechens & foreign 'advisors', we should stay the hell out of it...
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 2:51:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2004 2:53:57 PM EST by Fred-in-PA]
It gets better...Immediately to the south of Ossetia, Southern Ossetia is trying to break away from Georgia. And if I am not mistaken, we have American "advisers" in Georgia.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 3:01:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 3:04:21 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 3:21:38 PM EST
.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 6:01:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2004 6:03:19 PM EST by Robert2011]
What interesting people are on this forum:

"My Jihad: The True Story of An American Mujahid's Amazing Journey from Usama Bin Laden's Training Camps to Counterterrorism with the FBI and CIA," by Aukai Collins

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1585745650/qid=1032553334/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-9350330-9957436?v=glance&s=books

From Publishers Weekly
Collins, a former mujahid and Phoenix-based FBI informant, has recently been in the news for allegedly having warned the FBI to no avail about one of the September 11 hijackers. Here he focuses mostly on his experiences fighting along with an associate of Bin Laden's in Chechnya, as well as his bitter misadventures with the FBI. (Subtitle notwithstanding, he worked primarily for the FBI but did some joint missions with the CIA.) Collins, 28, converted to Islam while serving time as a teenager in a California prison for attempted robbery. After his release, he decided to make jihad in Bosnia in the early 1990s, and thus began an odyssey with the mujahideen that took him to training camps in Kashmir and Afghanistan and to the front lines in Chechnya. He became disillusioned, however, when some extremist factions began terrorizing civilians, and decided he could best preserve the sanctity of jihad by helping Americans rout the true terrorists. But his FBI gig wasn't much more fulfilling; Collins scathingly critiques what he casts as the Bureau's willful ignorance (they didn't understand, for instance, that mosques were the wrong places to look for extremists), their self-defeating rules (he was not allowed to go undercover to a camp actually run by Bin Laden himself) and their general bureaucratic bumbling. The book doesn't offer much historical or political background, but Collins is a vivid raconteur and his accounts of illegal border-crossings in lawless Afghanistan and Dagestan are as gripping as the descriptions of actual battles. His firsthand view of the FBI, though clearly one-sided, should interest readers as well.


Link Posted: 9/6/2004 6:55:41 PM EST
The biggest problem I have with the Chechans is that they actually achieved independence and a peace treaty with Russia in 1997. At that time they were for the most part an independent country. That peace treaty brought about an end to the first Chechan war. In 1999 Chechan and rogue crime bands attacked Dagastan in an expansion attempt which brought the Russians back into the war.

It may well have been a revolution for independence during the first Chechan war even though Chechnya has basically been part of Russian since the beginning of the 1800s (imagine New Mexico declaring independence) but this second war changed that.

Of course they have lost their independence once again in this latest war but no matter how much brutality either side has shown it's hard to sympathize with the idiots who thought they could mount a successful attack against another part of the Russian Federation in a bid to expand.



Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:04:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
There is no question the Russians treated them like shit. Stalin exported them to where they are now. About 25% of the population was killed off. They have run over prisoners with tanks, execuated people without trials.

But the school attack is a new low and gives the Russians the higher moral ground. They basically now have a blank check to go in and cause some real trouble.



not to metion Gassed Grozny.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:08:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By the:

Originally Posted By raven:
Well, their shooting children in the back has really led me to sympathize with the Chechen cause.



Deliberately shoot kids, forfeit your grievance. Then you die. End of story.



And when both sides do it, you just call it a casualty of war, look at the whole thing and say 'Not Our Problem'...

Which is, fortunately, what the USA has done...



Yeah maybe if we would have gotten involved after Putin gassed them it wouln't have come to this...make you think if someone gassed your kids....would you shoot theirs in the back?

Makes ya ponder huh?
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 7:15:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By Panzerwolf:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By the:

Originally Posted By raven:
Well, their shooting children in the back has really led me to sympathize with the Chechen cause.



Deliberately shoot kids, forfeit your grievance. Then you die. End of story.



And when both sides do it, you just call it a casualty of war, look at the whole thing and say 'Not Our Problem'...

Which is, fortunately, what the USA has done...



Yeah maybe if we would have gotten involved after Putin gassed them it wouln't have come to this...make you think if someone gassed your kids....would you shoot theirs in the back?

Makes ya ponder huh?



Putin gassed his OWN people...

The only Chechens who were gassed in the Theatre incedent were TERRORISTS.

The only reason they died was a lack of andidote, the gas used was designed as a less-lethal weapon

There is no time to intervene in this sort of war. If you research the thing, you can find equal allegations of rape, murder of civillians, etc...

So we ignore it, as we should... It's Russia's problem, not ours.
Top Top