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Posted: 9/29/2011 10:53:25 AM EST
A friend of mine just received his dad's old Remington 700 .30-06. It seems to be a relatively basic model with a wood stock and iron sights. It's not in perfect shape, but everything seems to be in good working order. We will be putting some glass on it sooner or later. I guess the biggest question is that of ballistics, so I figured I'd come here as some of you guys have some pretty badass software.

How should we zero it to achieve the least possible POA/POI variation out to ~500-600yds?
(The range we shoot at has target frames every 25yds out to 100yds.)

Is there a particularly good scope out there for someone working with a tight budget?
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 11:05:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 11:06:13 AM EST by 4v50]
Is your friend capable of consistently hitting at 500-600 yards?

Most game are taken at about 100 yards or less. If he's into hunting, he might want to sight it in for 300 yards and memorize the drop.

BTW, for hunting, Redfield Jr. one piece scope base and rings are good. Not sniper quality, but we're not talking sniper rifles.

For scopes, a good used Leupold Vari II 3 x 9 should meet his hunting needs. I've been able to pick them up for $100 used.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 11:05:27 AM EST
Go to ODCMP.com look under sales

Sign up with a CMP club...buy cheap M2 ball from them Shoot it a lot ... get good

Reload brass. do it again
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 11:09:01 AM EST
Leupold VX-R 2-7X
nearly perfect scope for 30-06 hunting rifle.

My current hunting load is 180 grain Nosler Accubond over 57 grains of RL19, shoots about 2650 FPS.
Zero'ed at 200 yards.
Hyper accurate load.

What / where is he hunting?

My rifle is set up for elk from 0 - 300 yards in CO.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 11:09:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By jvm:
Go to ODCMP.com look under sales

Sign up with a CMP club...buy cheap M2 ball from them Shoot it a lot ... get good

Reload brass. do it again

This.. before even thinking of shooting out past 100 yards.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 11:09:22 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 11:10:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By 4v50:
A good used Leupold Vari II 3 x 9 should meet his hunting needs. I've been able to pick them up for $100 used.


+87, exactly what I was gonna post.

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 11:11:58 AM EST
It's not my gun, but If I was fortunate enough to inherit a gun I wouldn't mess with it.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 11:12:08 AM EST
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Is there a particularly good scope out there for someone working with a tight budget?


I will answer your last question first.

The answer is, No.

With scopes, you get what you pay for.

As my buddy Brianksain says, "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?"

Originally Posted By Bassgasm:
A friend of mine just received his dad's old Remington 700 .30-06. It seems to be a relatively basic model with a wood stock and iron sights. It's not in perfect shape, but everything seems to be in good working order. We will be putting some glass on it sooner or later. I guess the biggest question is that of ballistics, so I figured I'd come here as some of you guys have some pretty badass software.
How should we zero it to achieve the least possible POA/POI variation out to ~500-600yds?


Shooting to 600 yards is more difficult than many people think it is.

For a hunting rifle, the Remington 700 in .30-06 is a fine rifle. I would zero it for "on" at 200 yards. You will be about 2 inches high at 100, and about 8 inches low at 300. Plenty good for deer hunting.

Good luck.





Listen to this man and don't be a schmoe. If you can buy a used Leupold 3-9 VxII, get it. I have one on my Husqvarna .30-06 and it is an excellent gun sight. By that I mean it holds zero.


Fluffy
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 11:12:16 AM EST
2 to 3 inches high at 100 yards is pretty common for .30-06. Lets you hold dead aim on a big game animal out to 300 yards or so.

Or just zero it at 25 yards.

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 11:13:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By 4v50:
Is your friend capable of consistently hitting at 500-600 yards?

Most game are taken at about 100 yards or less. If he's into hunting, he might want to sight it in for 300 yards and memorize the drop.

BTW, for hunting, Redfield Jr. one piece scope base and rings are good. Not sniper quality, but we're not talking sniper rifles.

For scopes, a good used Leupold Vari II 3 x 9 should meet his hunting needs. I've been able to pick them up for $100 used.



This.

IIRC if you sight a 30-06 about 1 1/2" low at 100 yds it will be dead on at 300 yds. The nice thing about a 700 and most bolt rifles is that you can bore-sight it manually...put the rifle in a rest, pull the bolt and just look down the bbl. Put the bbl on target and bring the crosshairs to match. You can get very close this way without using ammo... and fine tune it with just a few rds.

Aftermarket parts are easy to come by for the 700 if he wants a different bbl, stock, etc....great rifles.

He can always duracoat it if the finish is shot.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 11:17:15 AM EST
As others have said, 2-3" high at 100yds is a good all purpose zero. A quality 2-7x or 3-9x variable would be a good choice. There are plenty of options that will work fine, don't go too cheap on the scope. I would plan on spending at least $150 to get something ok, in the $300-500 range you will find plenty of solid scopes.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 11:26:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Is there a particularly good scope out there for someone working with a tight budget?


I will answer your last question first.

The answer is, No.

With scopes, you get what you pay for.

As my buddy Brianksain says, "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?"

Originally Posted By Bassgasm:
A friend of mine just received his dad's old Remington 700 .30-06. It seems to be a relatively basic model with a wood stock and iron sights. It's not in perfect shape, but everything seems to be in good working order. We will be putting some glass on it sooner or later. I guess the biggest question is that of ballistics, so I figured I'd come here as some of you guys have some pretty badass software.
How should we zero it to achieve the least possible POA/POI variation out to ~500-600yds?


Shooting to 600 yards is more difficult than many people think it is.

For a hunting rifle, the Remington 700 in .30-06 is a fine rifle. I would zero it for "on" at 200 yards. You will be about 2 inches high at 100, and about 8 inches low at 300. Plenty good for deer hunting.

Good luck.

I'd agree with all of this, but argue that some budget scopes are better than others.

For example, I'd avoid the sub-$100 market entirely.

You can get a Burris Fullfield II 3-9X Mil Dot for around $200 and that's a perfectly serviceable scope for the casual shooter/hunter.

Your goal of 600 yards is almost entirely unrealistic for most shooters.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 11:28:17 AM EST
I set up my scopes deer rifles 2in high at 100 yards and let them eat. Thats minute of paper plate from 25 yards-300 and change.

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 11:30:57 AM EST
The plain old Weaver K series are cheap and supposedly as well made now as they used to be.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 12:25:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Is there a particularly good scope out there for someone working with a tight budget?


I will answer your last question first.

The answer is, No.

With scopes, you get what you pay for.

As my buddy Brianksain says, "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?"

Originally Posted By Bassgasm:
A friend of mine just received his dad's old Remington 700 .30-06. It seems to be a relatively basic model with a wood stock and iron sights. It's not in perfect shape, but everything seems to be in good working order. We will be putting some glass on it sooner or later. I guess the biggest question is that of ballistics, so I figured I'd come here as some of you guys have some pretty badass software.
How should we zero it to achieve the least possible POA/POI variation out to ~500-600yds?


Shooting to 600 yards is more difficult than many people think it is.

For a hunting rifle, the Remington 700 in .30-06 is a fine rifle. I would zero it for "on" at 200 yards. You will be about 2 inches high at 100, and about 8 inches low at 300. Plenty good for deer hunting.

Good luck.



OP, you should have just sent OP an IM.

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 12:29:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 12:29:56 PM EST by glazer1972]
Originally Posted By Bassgasm:
Is there a particularly good scope out there for someone working with a tight budget?


Yes, A Japanese made Weaver K6 6x38. Fully Multi-coated Optics, a lifetime warranty and reliable. Sight it in about 2" High at 100 yds.

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 12:30:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By HarryStone:
The plain old Weaver K series are cheap and supposedly as well made now as they used to be.


I agree.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 1:06:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By HarryStone:
The plain old Weaver K series are cheap and supposedly as well made now as they used to be.



+1 With better glass and coatings than the old days.

Seriously, check with your local gunshops for a name brand scope that is used. Some shops take them off used guns and sell them seperately (and others send out the way they came in). I used to get some good deals on used Leopolds like that.

I'd sooner recommend a person stick with the irons that buy a cheaper than dirt no name chinese scope. They're near disposable in my opinion. I wouldn't use one on anything stronger than a .22 magnum.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 1:09:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 1:10:49 PM EST by SteelonSteel]
Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:
Originally Posted By HarryStone:
The plain old Weaver K series are cheap and supposedly as well made now as they used to be.



+1 With better glass and coatings than the old days.

Seriously, check with your local gunshops for a name brand scope that is used. Some shops take them off used guns and sell them seperately (and others send out the way they came in). I used to get some good deals on used Leopolds like that.

I'd sooner recommend a person stick with the irons that buy a cheaper than dirt no name chinese scope. They're near disposable in my opinion. I wouldn't use one on anything stronger than a .22 magnum.

If I was buying a less expensive new scope it'd be Weaver or Burris (not as inexpensive as they used to be). Name brand better stuff new; Leupold or Nikon.



-damn, meant to edit abobe above post.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 1:38:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 1:38:52 PM EST by Bassgasm]
He plans on using it for the usual: deer, hogs, and post apocalyptic roving crazies. He will probably spend more time trying to squeeze the best possible groups he can get.

The bit about 2" high at 100 is exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

The friend in question has a steady hand, a good eye, and he is learning very quickly. I've seen him shoot ~1" groups at 50m with a M91/30 (irons) at 50yds and I've seen him shoot under 3" at 100yds with my PSL. I have not been able to do either of those things. If I can hit 300m targets with a M16A2 (been there done that, not necessarily every time I try), I'm pretty sure he can break 400m with a bit of practice.

To the guy concerned about the sentimental value of an inherited rifle, it is pre-tapped for scope mounts. We're not planning any outlandish mods.


Link Posted: 9/29/2011 2:10:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 6:41:16 PM EST by KRONIIK]
Originally Posted By theBUBBAMANcan:
Originally Posted By 4v50:


IIRC if you sight a 30-06 about 1 1/2" low at 100 yds it will be dead on at 300 yds.


Not quite; that must be a typo or something.
If you sight in to impact 1-1/2 inches below point of aim at 100 yards with any 30-06 load, you're going to be way off the paper at 300 yards.
( Hitting low.)

Well maybe not WAY low, but well below a deer's belly.

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:40:39 PM EST
Painless is right about the zero. Most guns can not handle 600 yards without tapered bases and target knobs. Not something most hunting rifles have. Make sure the action screws are torqued correctly before you start shooting. I zeroed a 270 the other day for a guy at work. It was vertical stringing into about 3" at 100 yards. I tightened the action screws and it started shooting round groups around an inch.

Try to get a used Leupold somewhere or just bite the bullet and get a new one. It will last forever.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 7:59:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By KRONIIK:
Originally Posted By theBUBBAMANcan:
Originally Posted By 4v50:


IIRC if you sight a 30-06 about 1 1/2" low at 100 yds it will be dead on at 300 yds.


Not quite; that must be a typo or something.
If you sight in to impact 1-1/2 inches below point of aim at 100 yards with any 30-06 load, you're going to be way off the paper at 300 yards.
( Hitting low.)

Well maybe not WAY low, but well below a deer's belly.


How much drop does .30-06 have?
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:10:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2011 8:12:04 AM EST by lildavid67]
Shooting 165 grain bullets, you can site a 30-06 in for 2.7" high at 100 yards. This will put you at about 1.7" high at 200 yards and 3" low (considered by most to be it's "maximum point blank range") at 273 yards.

ETA: The apogee, or 3" high mark, would occur at around 135 yards.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:19:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bassgasm:

Originally Posted By KRONIIK:
Originally Posted By theBUBBAMANcan:
Originally Posted By 4v50:


IIRC if you sight a 30-06 about 1 1/2" low at 100 yds it will be dead on at 300 yds.


Not quite; that must be a typo or something.
If you sight in to impact 1-1/2 inches below point of aim at 100 yards with any 30-06 load, you're going to be way off the paper at 300 yards.
( Hitting low.)

Well maybe not WAY low, but well below a deer's belly.


How much drop does .30-06 have?

According to the 30-06 tables here: http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/ballistics.aspx

The 150gr Core-Lokt factory ammo trajectory looks like this:

+1.8 @ 100
ZERO @ 200
-8.2 @ 300
-24.4 @ 400
-50.9 @ 500

So the advice of "two inches high at 100 yards" is good advice, IMO.

You can get slightly better performance from premium ammo or handloads, but the 30-06 is not typically considered a 600 yard caliber.

Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:28:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By AR4U:
It's not my gun, but If I was fortunate enough to inherit a gun I wouldn't mess with it.


+1
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:30:41 AM EST
As mentioned above 150 grain Core-Lokt

Sight in for 1.8 inches high at 100 yards will be

.7 high at 50
1.6 at 150
0.0 at 200
-3.2 at 250
-8.2 at 300
-15.1 at 350
-24.4 at 400
-36.2 at 450
-50.9 at 500
-90 at 600
-147.6 at 700
-226.4 at 800

2 inches high is pretty much the standard for hunting. Aiming for the center of the deer vitals you will be in the money out to 300 yards although I would aim a hair high over 250.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:31:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2011 8:31:56 AM EST by TerribleTom]

Originally Posted By Boncrete:
Originally Posted By AR4U:
It's not my gun, but If I was fortunate enough to inherit a gun I wouldn't mess with it.


+1

Who is messing with it?

It's a Remington 700 that needs a scope.

Some of you guys act like the OP's buddy is getting ready to sporterize the '03 Springfield his great grandfather used in the trenches of WWI.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:33:18 AM EST
Keep in mind a 10 MPH cross wind at 200 yards puts you 4.2 inches off still in the money.

at 300 it is 10 inches
400 it is 18.8
500 it is 31.1
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:46:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Is there a particularly good scope out there for someone working with a tight budget?


I will answer your last question first.

The answer is, No.

With scopes, you get what you pay for.

As my buddy Brianksain says, "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?"

Originally Posted By Bassgasm:
A friend of mine just received his dad's old Remington 700 .30-06. It seems to be a relatively basic model with a wood stock and iron sights. It's not in perfect shape, but everything seems to be in good working order. We will be putting some glass on it sooner or later. I guess the biggest question is that of ballistics, so I figured I'd come here as some of you guys have some pretty badass software.
How should we zero it to achieve the least possible POA/POI variation out to ~500-600yds?


Shooting to 600 yards is more difficult than many people think it is.

For a hunting rifle, the Remington 700 in .30-06 is a fine rifle. I would zero it for "on" at 200 yards. You will be about 2 inches high at 100, and about 8 inches low at 300. Plenty good for deer hunting.

Good luck.



Old_Painless is right dead on as usual. Shooting at 600yds all summer it has taken that amount of time to get good hits and to find out what my come ups from 100yds are. I shoot my M1A in .308 168 gr SMK's and I'm about 17' high on a 100 yrd target. You have to shoot and shoot and shoot some more.

Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:51:21 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:54:36 AM EST
I sight mine in for 2" high at 100 with 150 PSP Core-Lokt bullets. For hunting in brush I usually shoot 220 grain round nose - which hit about an inch high at 100 - but you *really* don't want to shoot a bunch of those to sight it in.

I've got a Vari-X IIc on mine & it works great. There's definitely newer & better stuff out there, but it hasn't failed me yet. Its taken a heck of a beating as well.
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:58:31 AM EST
Irons are more useful in low light than a cheap scope, they weigh less, cost less, and won't matter in terms of accuracy out to 100-200 yards depending on your eyes.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:03:49 PM EST
We are trying to identify the specific model and date of manufacture of the rifle. Based on the pictures on the Remington web page, its closest match is the BDL. The cut of the stock is similar, both have iron sights, and both have a plate instead of a pad at the back of the stock. The BDL pictured has a plastic piece at the forend of the stock and it has a visible floorplate on the magazine. This rifle does not.

The SN is E6297XXX. On the right side of the barrel forward of the reciever, there is a "R" in a triangle, a "REP" in an oval, a "W," and an iron cross. On the left side of the barrel, there is an odd box shaped stamp, a "00" or "OO," and a 18.

I've got a crappy cell phone pic for later.

Any ideas?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:35:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 4:38:42 PM EST by SteelonSteel]
Originally Posted By Bassgasm:
We are trying to identify the specific model and date of manufacture of the rifle. Based on the pictures on the Remington web page, its closest match is the BDL. The cut of the stock is similar, both have iron sights, and both have a plate instead of a pad at the back of the stock. The BDL pictured has a plastic piece at the forend of the stock and it has a visible floorplate on the magazine. This rifle does not.

The SN is E6297XXX. On the right side of the barrel forward of the reciever, there is a "R" in a triangle, a "REP" in an oval, a "W," and an iron cross. On the left side of the barrel, there is an odd box shaped stamp, a "00" or "OO," and a 18.

I've got a crappy cell phone pic for later.

Any ideas?



OO on L side of barrel by the REP in an oval would be July 1977 or July 1994 when the method repeats. One look and most guys could tell the vintage between 77 and 94.; (Most of my guns I thought had the REP on the L side)

cold link;
http://www.wisnersinc.com/additional_info/remington_date_code.htm
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:37:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 4:38:32 PM EST by VBC]
Barrel and receiver numbers rarely match anywhere you go, unless you have connections.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:22:10 PM EST
Here it is:

Link Posted: 10/2/2011 7:49:42 PM EST
Looks like an ADL to me.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:05:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By 1bamashooter:
Looks like an ADL to me.

Is that a discontinued model? I'm not seeing it on Remington's website.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:09:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bassgasm:

Originally Posted By 1bamashooter:
Looks like an ADL to me.

Is that a discontinued model? I'm not seeing it on Remington's website.


Yes, they where made from 1962 to 2004.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 9:08:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 9:09:25 PM EST by Still_learning]
Originally Posted By Bassgasm:
How should we zero it to achieve the least possible POA/POI variation out to ~500-600yds?


There isn't a shoulder-fired cartridge on God's green Earth that has a point blank range of 600 yards. So, no, there's no way to zero it for 0 to 600 yards.

What you want is a scope with reliable, repeatable elevation and windage adjustments. That way you can dial in what is needed for the distance you are shooting.

Do you plan to hunt? with this or target shoot?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 9:27:13 PM EST


ADL sure enough

for that rifle I'd go with any of the following:
Weaver K4 fixed 4x32
Leupold VX-II 3-9x40
Redfield revolution 3-9x40
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 7:31:29 AM EST
I'm guessing the ADL was Remington's bottom end 700?
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 7:43:51 AM EST
IMHO most people sight in for 100 yards - so they are pretty much minute of animal from point blank through 200 yards. Few people hunt over 200 yards, and by then your bullet is falling hard and you might as well just deal with it (you will need to know a fairly accurate range and need a ballistic table). It has been ages since I have even bothered to sight in at 300 as wind will even screw up a near perfect shot.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 7:47:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By TrojanMan:
Irons are more useful in low light than a cheap scope, they weigh less, cost less, and won't matter in terms of accuracy out to 100-200 yards depending on your eyes.


How cheap? $20? I have a cheap $60.00 scope on my .17 Marlin. I shot a raccoon three in the morning with barely any light. I could not see through the AR-15's peep sight. So I used Marlin.

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 7:50:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By Beamy:


ADL sure enough

for that rifle I'd go with any of the following:
Weaver K4 fixed 4x32
Leupold VX-II 3-9x40
Redfield revolution 3-9x40


I am a big fan of Redfield revolution. I like them better than Leupold (even if Leupold owns redfield). Redfield Revolution has long and forgiving eye reliev. This is not the case for older Redfield I have.
Older Weaver K4s have very thin recticles. Hard time seeing it in the dark.

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 7:54:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:


Seriously, check with your local gunshops for a name brand scope that is used. Some shops take them off used guns and sell them seperately (and others send out the way they came in). I used to get some good deals on used Leopolds like that.




This . . . . in a big way .

I bought a Leupold fixed 8x with A/O for $200 and a newer Leupold fixed 6x with Stoney Point turrets for $175 . . . . bot awesome scopes and great for hunting .

A while back I bought a Burris 12x A/O for $125 and a really nice Japanese Nikon for$100 , both are on varmint rifles now . Another Jap Nikon 6-18 A/O sits on my good AR and I bought it for $125 off the EE here .

Why buy new when used will do ?? Especially since most of the new stuff under $500 is shat out of fucking china
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 7:57:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bassgasm:
I'm guessing the ADL was Remington's bottom end 700?


Kinda .

They just didnt have bottom metal , a floorplate if you will , that you could open to empty the magazine .

Action and barrel are pretty much the same , and ADL's stocks are plain-jane
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 7:58:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By jvm:
Go to ODCMP.com look under sales

Sign up with a CMP club...buy cheap M2 ball from them Shoot it a lot ... get good


What year was this post from, 2003? "Cheap" M2???
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:00:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By gunnut284:
As others have said, 2-3" high at 100yds is a good all purpose zero. A quality 2-7x or 3-9x variable would be a good choice. There are plenty of options that will work fine, don't go too cheap on the scope. I would plan on spending at least $150 to get something ok, in the $300-500 range you will find plenty of solid scopes.


I'm a big fan of Weaver's 2-10 scope. It isn't cheap but it isn't expensive either. The thing I like best about it is the low power setting, it is so low that it is almost like shooting through a red dot but then if you need magnification you can crank it up to 10 power and reach out and touch someone.
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