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Posted: 6/30/2012 12:51:43 AM EST
This is going to sound really fucking strange coming from an Atheist, but please bear with me, whilst I ramble a bit.
My mother in law is staying with us, at the moment. I actually expect that she'll be here a while. I bought a one way ticket for her, and truth be told - I love having her around. She's an awesome woman, and I'm a lucky man for marrying into a family that included her. She's really the best. Hell, I'd almost say that my house it better with her around. Here's the thing: She actually lives in California. At the moment, her twin sister is holding the fort down, in the house (my father in law has passed away). Financially, all is well - she still has a modicum of a mortgage on the place, but that and property taxed are something like $300/mo. It's kind of hard to beat. My wife and I are trying pretty hard to get her to move out here. We've been trying for the better part of 5 years, actually. She could sell her house in California, make a killing (even in today's market), and cruise easy in a place in Ohio, free and clear. Her father is dead. Her husband is dead. Her mother moved to Oklahoma. She has two sisters left in the state - One lives with her (my MIL allows this out of sympathy, I think) and she despises the other. Her mother has moved to Oklahoma. Her MIL moved...somewhere else. Her other daughter almost never talks to her, or visits her. My MIL herself, needless to say, is not long for this world. I generously give her 10-15 years (I don't mean to be morbid, but I call 'em like I see 'em). I REALLY hope I'm wrong, BTW. But supposing I'm not... ...my wife and I feel that life would be a whole lot better for all of us, if she lived here. And here's where it gets tricky. The last time I had her out here for an extended period of time, she felt a huge hole in her heart, because...well...her hosts never went to church. In hindsight, after conversations with my wife, who obviously had conversations with my MIL, I learned that my mother in law really needed a church family - in a way that I had not really imagined. I thought about it for a little while, and I realized that back home, this was all she had. She's always been a very religious woman, but when you think about the death of a husband, it really makes you think about the social structure that you have in place to help you deal with it. Long story short (I've mentioned it already), her immediate family wasn't available any way other than by phone, really. Truth be told, her church helped her grieve and move on, more than anyone else. So, the last time she was out here, we never took her to church - something that's a MAJOR part of her life and identity. This time around, we decided to reverse that, and do what we could to make her comfortable. Here's the problem, and it's a complicated one - My wife and I are atheists, and have raised our kids as such. My MIL has no idea that we are atheists - she figures we're both back-slidden Christians. My own parents are well aware of my non-belief, but my MIL is not. My own parents took it...well enough (I suppose...), but my wife is absolutely convinced that my MIL will be devastated if she knew that her daughter was a non-believer. So, we've never said anything. That brings me to my current dilemma: I want her to be SUPER comfortable with my area, and that includes (by her own words) going to some kind of church (she's thankfully, not dogmatic about the denomination). For the past two weeks, we've gone to an Assembly of God church (this is what she's currently attending back in California), but I've got to tell you folks straight up - I'm wierded the fuck out, by it. Bad. If it was just me and my wife, I wouldn't mind. I can suffer through anything, to make somebody else happy. What I'm honestly worried about is my kids - they know that "daddy" doesn't believe in any kind of God, and yet they're attending classes that assert the existence of such. I'm doing this for my MIL, but it's occurred to me, that I'm confusing the fuck out of my kids. How do I balance these conflicting issues? PS: If there's one thing on my side in this regard, it's that my kids are bored out of their minds and PISSED that they have to go to church. So...win one for daddy? In all seriousness, I'd really love some suggestions on how to handle this. Feel free to ask questions. |
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Quoted:
I just learned ignored users starting new threads show up. I love you too, bro? EDIT: I'm actually half curious as to what I said, to earn an esteemed place on his ignore list. |
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Not trying to be smug, but the Christian thing to do is to tell the truth to all involved. It'll make things easier for everyone in the long run.
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Quoted: I just learned ignored users starting new threads show up. yet you still felt the need to post , well done you subs i got nothing ,but good luck with it . |
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Living a lie makes no one happy, no matter how good the intentions.
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Quoted:
leave her there, she won't be happy Yeah she doesnt need to sell everything, pick up stakes and then move there to find out her only real family are going to hell. I kid I kid. As a Christian I certainly understand. Jesus knew that he wasnt for everyone and not everyone would become a follower. Leave your MIL where she is. She will be happy enough. |
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You're weaving a tangled web. I think you have to figure out a way to be honest with her. Just be straight with her about your beliefs, and your desire to have her live with you in Ohio. |
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It is usually best to get the truth out there at some point.
That being said, timing is key for serious matters. You say you really dig the MIL and that's great. Maybe you can compromise with her by telling the kids to treat the whole Church thing as a learning experience. Not so much a religious thing but more of a "some people believe in a God" and we're going to learn about their beliefs so we can try to understand why they do this and how it helps them go through their lives. Whether you are a believer or not, there are some awesome stories told in the Bible. When I was in grade school, we used to leave school and walk to a church in the middle of the school day and learn about the different stories of the Bible. ( Public school by the way. Imagine if they tried that these days ) Anyway, I wasn't and still am not a religious person but I learned a lot in those sessions about the Bible and Christianity in general. I count the experience as one of the more educational of my life. Depending on the age of the kids, this might be an option. Just be sure it's understood that your whole family will not be waiting for the church doors to be unlocked every Sunday to get the best seats, but that you and yours will be happy to occasionally attend with her as a learning experience and to be respectful of her beliefs. This is a tough one but that's what I got. Hope it helps. |
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I think you need to do what you feel is best for you, your wife, and your kids and whatever that is tell your MIL. Help her find a church she enjoys and let her go there, drive her if needed. Your kids must be really confused going from an atheist household to an assembly of God church. I grew up around a guy that was raised in an atheist household but everytime they went to see his uncle they ended up having to go sit through tortuous hours of some backwoods seventh day adventist bible thumping and it always made him confused when he was younger.
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Quoted: this sounds like the way to goIt is usually best to get the truth out there at some point. That being said, timing is key for serious matters. You say you really dig the MIL and that's great. Maybe you can compromise with her by telling the kids to treat the whole Church thing as a learning experience. Not so much a religious thing but more of a "some people believe in a God" and we're going to learn about their beliefs so we can try to understand why they do this and how it helps them go through their lives. Whether you are a believer or not, there are some awesome stories told in the Bible. When I was in grade school, we used to leave school and walk to a church in the middle of the school day and learn about the different stories of the Bible. ( Public school by the way. Imagine if they tried that these days ) Anyway, I wasn't and still am not a religious person but I learned a lot in those sessions about the Bible and Christianity in general. I count the experience as one of the more educational of my life. Depending on the age of the kids, this might be an option. Just be sure it's understood that your whole family will not be waiting for the church doors to be unlocked every Sunday to get the best seats, but that you and yours will be happy to occasionally attend with her as a learning experience and to be respectful of her beliefs. This is a tough one but that's what I got. Hope it helps. |
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why not let your kids go and let them decide for themselves what they want to believe when they get older? like you said she is a great woman and not long for this world. go be friendly, enjoy the fellowship with her
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I seriously doubt your MIL is religious at all. She is a true believer and not just putting on a show. It will be hard, but you need to be honest with her.
If she is who you describe, she knows that faith is a choice for every person. You have your faith, she has hers. |
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Tell her truth, I could see playing along if it weren't for the kids. She can go to church and have the social net of church on her own, or you can take her without the kids if she cannot drive. If she is active in her CA church and able to care for herself she might be better off in CA. Church keeps older people active and in the community when kids move away and spouses die and other parishioners usually check on elderly members.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
this sounds like the way to go
It is usually best to get the truth out there at some point. That being said, timing is key for serious matters. You say you really dig the MIL and that's great. Maybe you can compromise with her by telling the kids to treat the whole Church thing as a learning experience. Not so much a religious thing but more of a "some people believe in a God" and we're going to learn about their beliefs so we can try to understand why they do this and how it helps them go through their lives. Whether you are a believer or not, there are some awesome stories told in the Bible. When I was in grade school, we used to leave school and walk to a church in the middle of the school day and learn about the different stories of the Bible. ( Public school by the way. Imagine if they tried that these days ) Anyway, I wasn't and still am not a religious person but I learned a lot in those sessions about the Bible and Christianity in general. I count the experience as one of the more educational of my life. Depending on the age of the kids, this might be an option. Just be sure it's understood that your whole family will not be waiting for the church doors to be unlocked every Sunday to get the best seats, but that you and yours will be happy to occasionally attend with her as a learning experience and to be respectful of her beliefs. This is a tough one but that's what I got. Hope it helps. Gets another vote. |
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Going to church is like logging into this forum. All kinds of different, good, bad and in between.
You will run into just as many kooks at church, as you do on this site. As a christian, I have my beliefs, as does your mother in law. I'd look at this as an opportunity to get to really know her. At some point, you will probably have to come clean with the truth. You stated that you think your life is better with her around. Cling to that. Not all of us have those same type of family relationships. As far as your kids go, being able to lean on Mom and Dad for guidance related to spiritual matters and life in general is important. Your beliefs are yours and your kids will embrace them. Letting them learn and experience that others believe differently isn't a bad thing. I think my son makes better choices at 13 than most kids due to his exposure to many different beliefs and points of view. As long as the church isn't one of those fire and brimstone believe our way or your going to hell types or overly pushy with involvement, what does it hurt to go. Who knows you might make some good friends. |
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You're one of a few members here that I will read a "wall of text" from . . .
That is a tough situation, but if everyone is respectful, not too bad. People can be very emotional about such things though. I would say you're right in that it absolutely needs to be addressed before she should consider moving in. I am not religious and would refuse to be compelled to go to church. I would rather go donate bone marrow. Good luck. |
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tell her the truth. help her find a church she is comfortable with. However if you dont beleive then dont just live a lie.
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I guess I'm missing what makes this a big deal. You do your thing. She does hers. Neither one of you tries to change the other. Let her know that you would love to have her move near you but that you're not joined at the hip. |
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I have been having, issues, with organized religion. I was raised Baptist, became a heathen, dove head first into the Pentecostal faith, and now I am just not sure about any of it to be honest. My personal beliefs aside, moving her might not be the greatest thing if that area is all she has known. Good or bad she made memories there, and has her new family there. If she was suffering dementia then I could see doing it for her own good but if she is still functional I would let her make her own mind up. As far as kids and church, we are in the same boat. Except we don't attend church with relatives and wouldn't go to placate them either. If you have raised your kids with the belief that there is no God, and now you are suddenly forcing them to go worship Him then that is definitely sending a mixed message. That or they view it as punishment. I am far from an expert, but I do believe kids need consistency. I hope you at least break it down for them so the confusion is at a minimum. "Grandma is old and wont be with us forever so we have to make her happy by going to church with her" sort of thing.
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Tell her the truth. In fact I bet she knows already. I'm sure she appreciates the effort you are making but I bet she will appreciate the honesty more.
If I were in your shoes then I would make it clear the kids weren't raised as Christians, I don't want it pushed on them but I don't mind at all if they want to ask about it or go with the MIL to church - that's their choice. I think either I or my wife would go with MIL to the church to establish some connection between her blood family and her church family - it's not an "us or them" situation, she doesn't have to make a choice. I hope it goes well. A good MIL is worth her weight in gold. I get on wonderfully with mine because (i) she doesn't speak English and (ii) I don't speak Russian. Actually I suspect we both speak enough to communicate if we wanted to, but we don't want to spoil a beautiful relationship |
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How have your kids made it through two services without letting the cat out of the bag? Have they been through SERE?
But seriously, it seems that the foundation of this scheme is a lie. Not leaving out information, but an actual lie. "Hey everyone, here's the happy, churchgoing Subnet family here for our weekly dose of religion." But I'm tempted to advise you to keep going, in the hope that you will hear God during one of these services. |
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Subnet, there is no fix. She is very set in her ways and will not accept your religion choices. She will see it as an affront.
As far as needing a church family, maybe she can find enough support at a random church where you live. I have no idea because I don't go to church either, but I think Christians like going to church because of the community it provides. |
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Quoted:
Not trying to be smug, but the Christian thing to do is to tell the truth to all involved. It'll make things easier for everyone in the long run. +1.In addition, it's the smart thing to do, the ethical thing to do, the mature thing to do. Your wife and you are adults, if you're 100% confident in your convictions why would you lie to her mom about them? She's going to find out sooner or later, probably from the kids. |
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Try finding a non-denominational church. Also, I think I would be honest with her. Especially if she does come to stay with you permanently. As someone said before, she probably knows or suspects something already.
Edit - Additionally, if you find a good pastor, sermons can be very interesting. My last church had a great pastor. He was very good at telling the stories and explaining the Greek origins of words, etc. I just couldn't handle some of the people that attended the church. It was a shame. |
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Based upon the info you provided, wouldn't it make sense for her to stay in California? It sounds like you & your wife want her to move, and it isn't a change that she initiated. Maybe your family could move closer to her? (I keed, I keed )
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Quoted: Not trying to be smug, but the Christian thing to do is to tell the truth to all involved. It'll make things easier for everyone in the long run. I have to go with this. How do you think she'll react when she does (and she will) find out that you're both atheists and have been pretending all along. Plus I have to believe that living the whole lie thing is going to start causing family stress at some point. |
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As a parent, holder of a masters in education, and christian who is decidedly NON CATHOLIC but attends mass every Sunday here is my .02
The best example from your KIDS perspective, IMO, is to have them attend church for a set period of time, 6 maybe 8 weeks I dunno thats for you to decide.... but prior to that have a chat with them, you need to let them know that religion is a belief, there is no right or wrong (assuming you don't go all jihad OFC) and that your feeling for them won't change if they decide that want to pursue an interest or further knowledge in the church (I'm assuming it won't). When you talk to them about religion you should give them your honest opinions (and qualify them as opinions) about the church and why you do not believe what the church does, and then try to give as unbiased an overview of what the church believes. The key I think from a good parenting/education stand point is to make this THEIR CHOICE, odds are, given your household they are going to side with mom and dad, but encouraging them to make that choice FOR THEM SELVES will do nothing but make them smarter, stronger, and better able to step back, analyze, and come to a choice on their own. When they seem to have made a choice, i would sit down again ask them to justify or explain their choices to you, and support them 100% whether you agree or not, the key here is to make this a learning experience for your kids, kids and parents will not always agree and that's OK in my mind, my parents though taught me to weigh all the facts/opinions/info and them based on said info and then make an informed decision, this is a great opportunity to do this. It may be a "risk" because what if they decide they do like church, you would have to be ready for outside chance, but in the end if it is not going to HURT your kids, I would put them in a position to make an informed decision and then support it fully.... .
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I told my parents. My mom cried and asked me to leave. She got over it in a few days. Every once in a while she says some joke about my non-belief, but other than that she seems over it. I told her I'll be sure to die after her so she can take this up with God.
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Faith plays no part in my life, but I have no problem attending services with someone if it pleases them. So if it were just you, or even you and your wife, I'd suggest you just accommodate your MIL. Obviously, your children add another dimension and I'm sorry to say that you wasted your time reading this far only for me to tell you that I don't have a answer for you. However, you are, in the main, an eminently sensible man and I'm confident you'll take whatever course of action that best balances everyone's interests.
Jane |
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I think you should make sure she can get to church even if you don't always stay. I would not get the kids involved in church to please her. Besides, it isn't safe for kids with all the snakes etc.
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only 2 ways it will go:
1 - she blames you for keeping her daughter & grandchildren from going to Heaven 2 - you end up with "Courageous" in your dvd library |
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Fundamentally changing your beliefs for someone else's comfort never ends well, IMO.
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Quoted:
This is going to sound really fucking strange coming from an Atheist, but please bear with me, whilst I ramble a bit. ...Hell, I'd almost say that my house it better with her around. In all seriousness, I'd really love some suggestions on how to handle this. Feel free to ask questions. Maybe her arrival is for a reason you've not thought of, or admitted to... Very ironic to have addressed "Hell" as an entity in your speech, and in the quote above. Of course Hell, and it's resident manager, hate it when things are better and your blessings flourish. |
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Go to church, and tell your kids that you're going for grandma's sake. They don't need an elaborate explanation. If they ask, tell them the truth "Grandma believes in God. Her beliefs, and her relationship with God make her happy".
By doing this, you're showing your kids that sometimes you do things for others for the sole reason to make THEM happy (a good lesson for budding atheists and believers alike). DO NOT say grandma is wrong. That would be identical to the indoctrination that some believers are accused of with their kids. At most, say "I believe differently". Who knows.... maybe they'll land up as Christians. But isn't that what you want for your kids; having them make their OWN decisions on such matters, and not just accepting the prejudices of others? This may be a good thing for ALL involved. You too, should keep an open heart. I was called back to the church in a way I least expected... I do pray you find the right church for yourselves. |
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I think it is one thing to accommodate your Mother-in-Law by seeing to it that she can join and attend the church of her choice. She needs to fully and clearly understand that you are doing this in order to make her time with you better for her.
Having said that, you absolutely need to draw the line at your kids. You can explain to them that their grandmother has the right to believe and practice whatever the hell she wants, but so do they. My advice would be to put a stop to that shit RFN! If she causes trouble, you had better leave her in California. This is the same advice I would give my own brother. Best of luck. |
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Well, do the Christian than and tell the truth.
If she is a practicing Christian, she will respect your honesty. |
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If you believe she really loves you, just tell her the truth and explain that you are doing it to make her time with you more enjoyable. She should be able to understand and respect that.
As far as the kids go, I would think you could appreciate them being exposed to both points of view and allowing them to make their own decisions. |
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Whatever you do must be based on on the truth. This is, in my opinion, all the more important with children in the picture. Hypocrisy isn't a lesson they need to learn.
That said, I would take the opportunity to let them accompany their grandmother to church and get exposure to the "other side." I try my best to live the Word, but my wife and daughters are much more "religious" than I am and attend services regularly. We're glad we gave them the exposure to organized religion (Methodist) and allowed them to chart their own course. I'd just lay it on the line and let your MIL make her own decision. From you posts I've read over the years I think you have a good heart and she would be happy with your family if she can accept your beliefs. |
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How do I balance these conflicting issues? Drop the issue. From the way you describe it, sounds to me like she's happy where she's at and she'd be miserable if she moved like you want her to. You're also confusing the heck out of your kids, like you've already admitted, just because you want her to move. The whole thing isn't fair to her or your kids. Everyone is happy the way the situation is now, and it sounds like there would be regret, confusion, and probably increasing anger for both her and your kids as time goes by, if you convince her to move. Don't screw up everyone's lives just because you want her to live closer to you. |
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Christians need church fellowship. We wither without it. Period.
The most miserable times in a believer's life are the times when they're between churches. So the MIL needs to find a church to be part of, no matter where she lives. The rest.....man, I don't know what to tell you here. I sure wish you were a believer. |
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I guess I'm missing what makes this a big deal. You do your thing. She does hers. Neither one of you tries to change the other. Let her know that you would love to have her move near you but that you're not joined at the hip. Let me explain what makes it a HUGE deal and quite the sticky situation for Subnet because he cares about the woman and I suspect he knows what telling her the truth will really do. As a Christian, telling her the truth is EXACTLY the same thing as walking up to her and telling her that her daughter and grand children are choosing to burn in Hell's fire for eternity. Think about that. It doesn't matter if it is true or not. It doesn't matter that Sub and his family don't believe it. What matters (to mom) is that SHE believes it. On the other hand, exposing kids to contrary indoctrination/brainwashing (because, let's be honest, it's not teaching) could be harmful, depending on age, etc. Without getting too far into my personal beliefs: We've raised our kids to allow for the possiblity that there's more to life than what can logically be explained. To have faith in a creator is a benefit in and of itself for reasons too deep to address here. I allow them to attend church if they choose to. I could never force them to do, because I was forced as a kid and it did damage to me. So, I understand the OP's dilema. There are situations in life where there IS no good answer. No matter what you choose, someone is coming out on the short end of the stick. It would be (imho) no benefit to tell her the truth. She's an old, Christain woman. Let her have hope that her progeny will meet her in Heaven. No harm can come of that. One possible compromise is to find a more secular vineyard style church that emphasizes the messeges that any decent person could agree with. Honesty, helpfulness, community outreach, etc. I could type for an hour about this subject and probably go around in a circle several times. But, bottom line is, I don't think exposing your kids to something you don't believe in the way that it's being taught in a Church of God (as opposed to being taught ABOUT in school) is a good thing. And, it'll do harm to the mom by hitting her with the truth. So, if you really want her to stay and every body be happy, a compromise church is my best guess of a suggestion....for now. I feel for the spot you're in, Subnet. I've seen quite a few variations of the exact same predicament. |
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Subnet why is your religious beliefs even an issue?
Are you going to preach to her your religion every five minutes and try to convert her to your way? If no then get her ass out here. Treat it as any other religious difference; Jewish vs Catholic vs Wiccan ect. You have your belief she has hers. If you want to talk concentrate on the similarities (do unto others, turn the other cheek ect) and historical aspect and respect her views. It sounds like you want what is best for her; that’s what’s most important. Tell her that. Do as you have said you will do; help her find a new church where she can feel connected to that thing she needs that’s greater that’s herself. |
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you're thinking about banging the mom aren't you? Dont do it, it won't be as great as the youtube video makes it out to be.
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This is going to sound really fucking strange coming from an Atheist, but please bear with me, whilst I ramble a bit. ...Hell, I'd almost say that my house it better with her around. In all seriousness, I'd really love some suggestions on how to handle this. Feel free to ask questions. Maybe her arrival is for a reason you've not thought of, or admitted to... Very ironic to have addressed "Hell" as an entity in your speech, and in the quote above. Of course Hell, and it's resident manager, hate it when things are better and your blessings flourish. This is what I call the "Tomato slice" scenario and exemplifies the benifit of faith and perception REGARDLESS of whether or not God exists. You're about to pull out of a fast food restaurant while eating your hamburger when a tomato slice falls into your lap. You stop to pick it up with your napkin just as a truck runs a red light and blows past you. SURELY God made that tomato slice fall so as to save you from getting killed by the truck. There is no harm in the person believing that. It's a centering and comforting belief. It makes them happy and able to die while looking forward with hope. Where's the harm? However, I believe there was probably just too much ketchup on the burger and now I have to wash my pants. Who got the most out of the experience? |
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you're thinking about banging the mom aren't you? Dont do it, it won't be as great as the youtube video makes it out to be. Dude, that's just wrong. |
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Sub usually says some interesting stuff, but I'm an American and refuse to read that wall of text, can I get a tldr version?
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