A boy dies, and a gun debate is reignited (CCWer shoots 15yr robber)

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - A boy dies, and a gun debate is reignited (CCWer shoots 15yr robber) (Page 1 of 6)

Posted: 4/24/2007 5:51:18 AM EDT

Update Page 8

Holdup victim had concealed-carry permit

Tuesday, April 24, 2007
Damian G. Guevara and Patrick O'Donnell

Plain Dealer Reporters link

Damon Wells is the man gun supporters were imagining when they fought for the right to carry concealed weapons.

He had a permit to carry his gun, and he had the gun on him when a pair of teenage thieves approached him Saturday night on his front porch in Cleveland.

When one of the youths pulled a gun, Wells drew his and shot one of the boys several times in the chest, police said. Arthur Buford, 15, died after stumbling away and collapsing on a sidewalk near East 134th Street and Kinsman Road.

City prosecutors decided Monday that Wells, 25, was justified and would not be charged for what appears to be the first time a concealed-carry permit holder has shot and killed an attacker.

Nonetheless, the shooting reignited the debate that flared three years ago when Ohio's concealed-carry law took effect.

Gun supporters said the weapon saved Wells' life. Opponents said it took Buford's - that the 15-year-old might be alive if a citizen had not been armed.

An angry throng of about 30 youths gathered Monday and set up a memorial at the intersection where Buford, a freshman at John F. Kennedy High School, died.

His cousin, Tameka Foster, 21, questioned why police did not punish Buford's shooter.

"They let that man run out freely," Foster said. "My cousin is dead."

Buford's accomplice disappeared after the shooting and had not been caught as of Monday night. Police found a .38-caliber handgun in the mail chute of a nearby house. They believe it belonged to Buford or the other suspect, Lt. Thomas Stacho said.

Police took a .40-caliber Smith and Wesson firearm from Wells as evidence, the police report shows.

Both sides of the gun debate said it was sad that a teenager died.

"It's tragic," said Jim Irvine, chairman of the Buckeye Firearms Association. "Anytime somebody dies, it's tragic, but it's hard to have any sympathy when he chose to have a gun and go threaten somebody's life."

Irvine said it was "great that a potential victim is able to continue his life instead of having a criminal take it."

Toby Hoover, of the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence, said she had not heard of any other fatal shooting involving a concealed-carry permit holder.

"This is one of the few where they actually used it to stop a crime," Hoover said.

But, she said, "there's still a dead kid here."

A man who answered a phone number for Wells refused to comment and hung up. No one answered the door at Wells' home.

Plain Dealer reporters Jesse Tinsley and Brie Zeltner and researcher Cheryl Diamond contributed to this story.

Posted: 4/24/2007 5:53:46 AM EDT

[#1]

Fuck the kid

I would have punched his punk ass cousin in the face if I was related to Damon Wells

Posted: 4/24/2007 5:57:54 AM EDT

[#2]

"My baby dint hurt nobody !!!"

Fuck that little douchebag.

And the CCW doesn't matter because he was on his own property.
CCW had nothing to do with it.

Posted: 4/24/2007 5:58:28 AM EDT

[#3]

Gun supporters said the weapon saved Wells' life. Opponents said it took Buford's - that the 15-year-old might be alive if a citizen had not been armed.

And the 15 year old would almost certainly be alive if he hadn't chosen crime as his profession.
(But let's just ignore that little fact.)

Posted: 4/24/2007 5:58:36 AM EDT

[#4]

If he has some other weapon instead of a gun he would of got shot also.

Posted: 4/24/2007 5:58:49 AM EDT

[#5]

Opponents said it took Buford's - that the 15-year-old might be alive if a citizen had not been armed.

Ok, so it is better that a criminal survives and a victim dies? 15 years old or not, this guy was old enough to know better.

Posted: 4/24/2007 5:59:50 AM EDT

[#6]

The Plain Dealer is really straining to impart some greater significance to this sorry incident. Any link to the "Gun Debate" is wholly their own creation.

I'm sure young Mr. Buford was just starting to straighten out his life, was taking care of his kids, just fell in with some bad friends, blah, blah, blah.

Good shoot.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:00:46 AM EDT

[#7]

15 and already committing armed robbery, I'm sure he would have grown up to be a productive member of society.

Good for the CCW holder, that S&W may have just saved his life

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:01:31 AM EDT

[#8]

"But he was such a good kid" "He had a future"

Any other bullshit statements we need to get out of the way before they bury the piece of shit?

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:03:00 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
His cousin, Tameka Foster, 21, questioned why police did not punish Buford's shooter.

"They let that man run out freely," Foster said. "My cousin is dead."

That's because your cousin was a piece of shit who deserved to get shot.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:03:01 AM EDT

[#10]

Tough shit junior,

When you live by the sword, you die by the sword; or in this case by the pistol. Yes a boy is dead, that is what happens when you point a gun at another person who has chosen to accept responsibilty for their own life.

I am sure that people will say that the perp wasn't old enough to understand his actions; that would have been cold comfort to those attending the intended victim's funeral.

Why should Wells be punished for defending himself against a deadly threat? I swear, there is a limited amount of intelligence in the world and the population is increasing, these nitwits obviously were cheated out of their fair share.

96Ag

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:03:37 AM EDT

[#11]

Sounds like the criminal got what was coming.

His accomplice should do hard time.

Don't try to rob an armed man.

TXL

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:04:09 AM EDT

[#12]

People are too often blinded by words like "child" and "kid", instead of paying attention to more salient facts like "armed robbery".

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:04:14 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
His cousin, Tameka Foster, 21, questioned why police did not punish Buford's shooter.

Ooh, Ooh! I know!!

It's because in a free society, the POLICE do not dole out punishment.

I question why any 21 year old who doesn't understand the basic workings of American society should be allowed to vote.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:05:29 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
People are too often blinded by words like "child" and "kid", instead of paying attention to more salient facts like "armed robbery".

Not all people.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:06:17 AM EDT

[#15]

"This is one of the few where they actually used it to stop a crime," Hoover said.

But, she said, "there's still a dead ~~kid~~ criminal here

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:06:34 AM EDT

[#16]

Live by the gun. Die by the gun.

Kid chose to carry a weapon and tried to use it against somebody. He lost his bet.

I refuse to be worried about him.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:06:52 AM EDT

[#17]

I guess it's time for the CCW holder to move.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:07:00 AM EDT

[#18]

height=8

Quoted:
15 and already committing armed robbery, I'm sure he would have grown up to be a productive member of society. hinking.gif

Good for the CCW holder, that S&W may have just saved his life

Yup, wouldn't be long before he graduated to rape and murder.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:07:17 AM EDT

[#19]

Read the blogs, 90+% in favor of the gun owner. My comments there are as ARSHOT since Shotar was banned some time ago.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:07:47 AM EDT

[#20]

Man darwin has really been at work lately...especially after the kid that got eaten by the crock...

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:08:36 AM EDT

[#21]

I'm glad the little punk is dead.

The CCW'er should be able to bill the mother (because I'm sure she doesn't know the who the fuck the father is) for the cartridge.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:09:13 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Gun supporters said the weapon saved Wells' life. Opponents said it took Buford's - that the 15-year-old might be alive if a citizen had not been armed.

And the 15 year old would almost certainly be alive if he hadn't chosen crime as his profession.
(But let's just ignore that little fact.)

No, it's more like the 15 yr old thug would still be alive but his victim would be dead. But it would be all okay because the sweet, misguided teenage would still be alive.

Fuck the little bastard! He got what he deserved.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:10:38 AM EDT

[#23]

Breaks my fucking heart............not suprised at the outrage though...........I guess we are supposed to roll over so their babies can come home to rob again............not this time sucker

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:10:56 AM EDT

[#24]

good reddens, glad he was taken out of the gene pool before he was able to procreate (I hope)

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:11:26 AM EDT

[#25]

So a 15 year old kid pulls a gun on a CCWer yet the CCWer should not have shot him? What was he supposed to do let the kid shoot him? The parents just need to admit that they have failed and that it was their kids fault. I personally do not give a shit about the cousin. The little punk was a armed theif and got what he deserved. Good job CCWer.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:11:49 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
People are too often blinded by words like "child" and "kid", instead of paying attention to more salient facts like "armed robbery".

Not all people.

+1

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:12:23 AM EDT

[#27]

I wouldn't say Mr. Wells got away without punishment in this shooting. Not at all. He has to live with the fact that some punk made him take his life. That is a burden that none of us wants.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:13:04 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Gun supporters said the weapon saved Wells' life. Opponents said it took Buford's - that the 15-year-old might be alive if a citizen had not been armed.

Holy tap-dancing mary.

That's the single most f*cking stupid statement I have ever seen.

"If the CCW holder hadn't been armed, this 15 year old would still be alive!!"

Yes, and his tax paying, NON-ARMED ROBBING victim might well be dead.

I'll trade the 15 year old piece of sh*t for the good guy ANY DAY.

"They let that man run out freely," Foster said. "My cousin is dead."

YOUR COUSIN WAS COMMITTING ARMED ROBBERY!

Defending one's self from a violent little thug bastard like your cousin isn't against the law.

It's too darn bad that this little harlot didn't get shot too.

ETA -- This is what burns me up more than anything else. We all probably have family members that are idiots. I know I certainly do.

If one of my relatives ends up getting shot because he/she was trying to commit armed robbery I am not going to sit around and moan that the police aren't punishing the person that shot him/her. If they interview me I will tell them "Bob was a no-good bastard all of his life. He was constantly stealing, constantly in trouble, constantly violent. I can't blame the guy for shooting him. Heck, if Bob had tried to rob me I would have shot him myself."

Both sides of the gun debate said it was sad that a teenager died.

"It's tragic," said Jim Irvine, chairman of the Buckeye Firearms Association. "Anytime somebody dies, it's tragic, but it's hard to have any sympathy when he chose to have a gun and go threaten somebody's life."

Personally I don't think it is sad.

Personally I have no sympathy for armed robbers.

Personally I think we ought to give the guy who shot this thug bastard a medal.

Toby Hoover, of the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence, said she had not heard of any other fatal shooting involving a concealed-carry permit holder.

"This is one of the few where they actually used it to stop a crime," Hoover said.

But, she said, "there's still a dead kid here."

....a dead ARMED ROBBER.

When they pull a gun and threaten someone's life, they cease to be a "kid".....you dumbass.

And a dead armed robber is better than a dead law abiding citizen ANY DAY OF THE F*CKING WEEK.....at least to people who don't believe in making victims prey to the whims of violent thugs like this 15 year old.

I'm glad the little bastard is dead. That's one less potential jackass trying to carjack me in the future.

Hip-hip-HOORAY!!

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:13:44 AM EDT

[#29]

It goes without saying the Plain Dealer leans pretty hard to the left.

Good shoot.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:14:15 AM EDT

[#30]

Thug Life = Thug Death

Any questions?

Max

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:15:54 AM EDT

[#31]

What a bunch of fucktards!

That stupid kid should have thought about the risk of getting shot when he pulled a gun out. By pulling the gun out he gave the victim no choice bu to defend himself.

Kid or not that gun represents a real threat to life of the victim and this looks like a good shoot to me!

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:17:21 AM EDT

[#32]

People are too often blinded by words like "child" and "kid", instead of paying attention to more salient facts like "armed robbery".

And now this 15 year-old will become another statistic for Schumer, Henigan, and Brady. In life, a brigand; in death, a child victim of "senseless gun violence."

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:18:58 AM EDT

[#33]

Liberals continue to live in a fantasy world where criminals with guns never use them to actually kill people and if we just give them what they want, they will go away without hurting us.

How can people be so fucking ridiculously stupid?

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:21:04 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Opponents said it took Buford's - that the 15-year-old might be alive if a citizen had not been armed.

Ok, so it is better that a criminal survives and a victim dies? 15 years old or not, this guy was old enough to know better.

Life lesson learned for the accompliss I guess - or he can choose to disregard it and continue his criminal ways

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:22:07 AM EDT

[#35]

And if the kid would have shot/robbed the CCW it wouldn't have even made the paper.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:22:35 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
I wouldn't say Mr. Wells got away without punishment in this shooting. Not at all. He has to live with the fact that some punk made him take his life. That is a burden that none of us wants.

In all honesty this is more of a myth than a reality.

I have been around lots of guys who have been forced to shoot someone....LE, non-LE civilian and .mil.....to a man every one of them was in a situation where it was clearly "him or me"....and to a man none had problems with pulling the trigger.

As one officer I know put it referring to his gunfight with a 16 year old multiple felon:

"He decided to kill me. I decided I wasn't going to die. He missed. I didn't. Tough sh*t for him."

I asked another officer who had been in a couple of firefights how he slept after his gunfights.

"Like a baby."

"You didn't have any nightmares or anything about killing those guys?" I asked.

"No." he responded. "They both had every chance to stop the actions that caused their death. I responded to their actions. They were the ones pushing the issue. I wasn't about to just stand there and let them kill me. They left me with no choice but to use lethal force. They paid for their needless aggression with their lives. Screw them!"

There are some people who struggle with having taken a life in self defense, but it is nowhere near as common as movies and TV make it out to be.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:23:07 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
How can people be so fucking ridiculously stupid?

By choice.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:24:57 AM EDT

[#38]

Those "kids" just learned a lesson in personal responsibility. If you want to rob people you need to accept the fact that you might get shot. It appears to be a lesson their parents didn't teach them.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:26:34 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
How can people be so fucking ridiculously stupid?

By choice.

That's the truly sad part.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:26:53 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I wouldn't say Mr. Wells got away without punishment in this shooting. Not at all. He has to live with the fact that some punk made him take his life. That is a burden that none of us wants.

In all honesty this is more of a myth than a reality.

I have been around lots of guys who have been forced to shoot someone....LE, non-LE civilian and .mil.....to a man every one of them was in a situation where it was clearly "him or me"....and to a man none had problems with pulling the trigger.

As one officer I know put it referring to his gunfight with a 16 year old multiple felon:

"He decided to kill me. I decided I wasn't going to die. He missed. I didn't. Tough sh*t for him."

I asked another officer who had been in a couple of firefights how he slept after his gunfights.

"Like a baby."

"You didn't have any nightmares or anything about killing those guys?" I asked.

"No." he responded. "They both had every chance to stop the actions that caused their death. I responded to their actions. They were the ones pushing the issue. I wasn't about to just stand there and let them kill me. They left me with no choice but to use lethal force. They paid for their needless aggression with their lives. Screw them!"

There are some people who struggle with having taken a life in self defense, but it is nowhere near as common as movies and TV make it out to be.

If you have done something that you see as being morally justified or righteous, you shouldn't have a problem with sleeping. It is when you do something that know if wrong is when regret happens. Most of us have not killed another human being and we know morally that killing is wrong, because it is. But when faced with a situation that puts an inmoral thug/predator against me who is the in the right, then the everything is clear.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:28:30 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
The Plain Dealer is really straining to impart some greater significance to this sorry incident. Any link to the "Gun Debate" is wholly their own creation.

I'm sure young Mr. Buford was just starting to straighten out his life, was taking care of his kids, just fell in with some bad friends, blah, blah, blah.

Good shoot.

A newspaper using a story to push their political agenda?

SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:29:41 AM EDT

[#42]

Just read through the blogs again, there is no debate at all going on. I believe the notably anti gun Plain Dealer, ran this story with this headline as a test in the post VT world. They wanted to see if there was support for gun control. That is why they opened this story in particular up the the bloggers. They were expecting and hoping for an anti gun owner shitstorm. They got exactly the opposite. Another nail in the gun control coffin. They have now burried the story because the response, even from ministers in the community, was not what they had planned on.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:35:06 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
If you have done something that you see as being morally justified or righteous, you shouldn't have a problem with sleeping.

That's not always the case.

You can do the right thing and feel guilty about it later. That's entirely possible....but when it comes to shooting some O2 thief who is trying to kill you, most people who have been through it have a pretty matter-of-fact view of the whole situation. Bad guy tried to kill me...I didn't want to die....I fought back....bad guy died....tough sh*t for the bad guy.

There are some folks who struggle with having taken a life, but from what little I have seen, that is rare. Typically people who resort to lethal force feel that they were left with no other alternative. More common is the problem of literally staring death in the face. That is probably responsible for more instances of PTSD than guilt about the person that they shot.

ETA -- An example is a friend of mine who was in Vietnam. He was forced to kill people, sometimes even kids who were in the process of attacking him and his unit. None of that ever bothered him.

He ended up being assigned to help load the bodies of dead servicemen on planes to send home once by a fluke of logistics.....That bothered him.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:39:25 AM EDT

[#44]

"Boo got shot !!!"

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:40:05 AM EDT

[#45]

Sucks to be a thug.

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:40:47 AM EDT

[#46]

Without getting into morbid thoughts, I've always wondered if a perp's last thoughts in situations like this went something like this: "Shit, man, maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all?"

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:44:19 AM EDT

[#47]

The only problem I see here is that douche bag #2 didn't get the same treatment as douche bag #1.

I mean really libtards, what do you expect, these two thieves tried, at gun point to rob and do God only knows what else to this guy. One of them got what he "earned", the other kid is hopefully brought to justice as well.

It is great that the gun grabbers make no mention of the thieves guns or how they obtained them or how they were just ditched so that anyone could find them...

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:46:32 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
How can people be so fucking ridiculously stupid?

By choice.

That's the truly sad part.

being smart makes you a dork.

It is cool to be an idiot. 99.9% of my classmates are total retards who can't think for themselves. And more of them have "Gats" for busting caps in each others ass. seriously schools and parents are creating brain-dead consumers.

one less pest to infect this world

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:47:17 AM EDT

[#49]

Arthur Buford found out that:

"You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you might find
You get what you need"

Posted: 4/24/2007 6:47:35 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
The only problem I see here is that douche bag #2 didn't get the same treatment as douche bag #1.

I mean really libtards, what do you expect, these two thieves tried, at gun point to rob and do God only knows what else to this guy. One of them got what he "earned", the other kid is hopefully brought to justice as well.

It is great that the gun grabbers make no mention of the thieves guns or how they obtained them or how they were just ditched so that anyone could find them...

Remember this story when you hear a story in the future like "man shoots unarmed teen" or some such truck....

Criminals are known to grab a weapon that their now dying thug friend drops and abscond with it....just like what happened here.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - A boy dies, and a gun debate is reignited (CCWer shoots 15yr robber) (Page 1 of 6)

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