Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 3
Posted: 9/29/2011 4:38:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:40:17 AM EST



interesting. i'll be staying tuned.


Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:44:54 AM EST
What an odd thing for a manufacturer to say....

It's hard to imagine defending a dynamic carjacking, for instance, without SOME possibility of having to shoot through glass.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:46:50 AM EST

The critical defense is the one with the polymer cap so it doesn't clog, right?

Do they say the same thing about regular old Gold Dots?
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:46:56 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:47:28 AM EST
I still would like to see it tested. I just gave some to a friend of mine in return for letting me take his .45 Long Colt revolver to the range.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:48:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
He suggested that I test Critical Defense ammo against these barriers. But I told him that since the manufacturer had already admitted that the ammo would fail if fired through those barriers, any test by me would only be repetitious.


Per the article (it's even underlined) HCD is untested against barrier materials.

Any manufacturer's claims are probably nothing more than liability dodging.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:51:04 AM EST
Hmm.. another Glaser Safety Slug type of thing.

Glad you caught that painless..
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:51:14 AM EST
Test Test Test Test Test !
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:52:59 AM EST
Damn, I just bought my father a box of that.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:53:11 AM EST
Begs the question... will it not penetrate those barriers?
Will it rapidly expand and loose all velocity?

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:56:40 AM EST
We definately need a test.

The 9mm Critical Defense is what I have in my carry gun.

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:57:26 AM EST
If anyone knows how to answer this, it's you OP.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 4:59:05 AM EST
Is any round designed to shoot through barriers?
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:00:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By HermanSnerd:
We definately need a test.

The 9mm Critical Defense is what I have in my carry gun.



Assume any SD ammo will NOT perform until objective tests prove otherwise
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:00:13 AM EST
What do they mean "fail"?

Either of two things will happen, the bullet nose will collapse, and there won't be any expansion, but the bullet still strikes the bad guy and penetrates more than normal. Or, the bullet will expand at the barrier, penetrate, then hit the bad guy with a expanded bullet.

In either case, the bad guy takes a hard hit from full power round.

Not seeing a fail here.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:00:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 5:01:07 AM EST by RRA_223]
Sounds to me like we should all hold hands and thank a Lawyer.


It also sounds to me like they are not saying the ammunition wouldn't penetrate barriers, only that it's not guaranteed or tested to penetrate those barriers.


Agree with above poster on liability speak on behalf of Hornady. I have a hard time believing ANY 9mm round wouldn't easily pass through several layers of rocksheet or a few pieces of low-gauge tin metal - polymer expanding cone or not.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:00:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
A friend of the Box O' Truth sent me a note with this link attached.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm

A Word of Caution about Hornady’s Critical Defense Handgun Ammunition
- by Shawn Dodson

According to Steve Johnson, Hornady Marketing Communications Manager, the Critical Defense line of handgun ammunition:

"...is not designed to shoot through glass, is not designed to shoot through a car door, and is not designed to shoot through a wall. If you have to shoot through something like that in a personal defense situation you're probably going to jail."

–– NRA's American Guardian TV


I was surprised that it is dated in 2006, as I have never read this before.

Even discounting the false statement included (in red), the rest of the statement is what the person wanted me to test.

He suggested that I test Critical Defense ammo against these barriers. But I told him that since the manufacturer had already admitted that the ammo would fail if fired through those barriers, any test by me would only be repetitious.

I was surprised that this ammo is not rated to penetrate these rather common barriers. I had a lot of hope for this bullet.

Does anyone know if their position has changed on this issue at all?






They're ammunition manufacturers, not attorneys....
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:05:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
A friend of the Box O' Truth sent me a note with this link attached.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm

A Word of Caution about Hornady’s Critical Defense Handgun Ammunition
- by Shawn Dodson

According to Steve Johnson, Hornady Marketing Communications Manager, the Critical Defense line of handgun ammunition:

"...is not designed to shoot through glass, is not designed to shoot through a car door, and is not designed to shoot through a wall. If you have to shoot through something like that in a personal defense situation you're probably going to jail."

–– NRA's American Guardian TV


I was surprised that it is dated in 2006, as I have never read this before.

Even discounting the false statement included (in red), the rest of the statement is what the person wanted me to test.

He suggested that I test Critical Defense ammo against these barriers. But I told him that since the manufacturer had already admitted that the ammo would fail if fired through those barriers, any test by me would only be repetitious.

I was surprised that this ammo is not rated to penetrate these rather common barriers. I had a lot of hope for this bullet.

Does anyone know if their position has changed on this issue at all?






They're ammunition manufacturers, not attorneys....


For a major manufacturer of ammunition, I would expect that they have at least one lawyer on retainer, if not employed by them.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:07:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 5:10:20 AM EST by Merrell]
http://www.hornady.com/store/critical_defense

hmmm...

Hornady Critical Defense ammunition is the pinnacle in self defense ammunition
The Hornady Critical Defense line of personal defense ammunition has added 22 WMR, 9x18 Makarov, 44 Special, and 45 Colt to the lineup. Loaded with the patented FTX bullet, these bullets provide consistent expansion through heavy clothing, and won’t plug up like conventional hollow points.

The 22 WMR delivers terminal performance rom a short-barreled firearm comparable to the 380 Auto Critical Defense load.

The 9x18 Makarov is optimized to deliver superior expansion from it's 90 gr FTX bullet.

The 45 Colt Critical Defense load has been maximized for performance in short-barreled platforms, and is a fantastic choice for the very popular Taurus Judge. Both the 44 SPL and the 45 Colt Critical Defense loads offer real “man-stopping” power.


  • Unaffected by thick and heavy clothing, including denim and leather.
    Patented FTX bullet delivers superior controlled expansion and large, deep wound cavities over a wide range of velocities.
    Clean burning and stable propellants reduce recoil in lightweight handguns, and perform consistently in all temperatures.
    Minimal muzzle flash protects night vision.
    Feeds reliably in all pistols.
    Shiny silver nickel plating prevents corrosion, and is easily visible in low light situations.
    Bullets are cannelured and crimped to avoid bullet setback.
    Bullets are custom designed for individual loads.
    The most effective, consistent, and reliable self-defense ammunition available today!









Critical Defense provides reliable expansion every single time.





Inconsistent and unreliable performance from conventional hollow point bullets.



Doesn't mention who makes the 'unreliable' conventional hollowpoints.


Is this shtick coming from Hornady or their web / marketing developer?

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:09:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By vern23:
Is any round designed to shoot through barriers?


AP?

Some ammo seems to fare better in testing after going through barriers than others. Golden Saber has a reputation for this.

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:09:56 AM EST
To be fair there is no context with that statement. It seems to be the answer to a question but we don't have that question.

Are other rounds "rated" for barrier penetration by their manufacturer? If so I haven't seen it.

I'd be interested in a BOT test on it anyhow. It would be interesting to see what it does compared to other self defense/LE offerings in light of or despite this comment.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:11:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By vern23:
Is any round designed to shoot through barriers?

Bonded cores.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:12:43 AM EST
It just sounds like some unusual honesty from the manufacturer to me, not that Hornady is ever dishonest. Anyhow it's nice to know what to expect from it before you buy it. If you want to shoot through glass, car doors or walls you can buy something better for that still.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:15:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Does anyone know if their position has changed on this issue at all?

Nothing has changed.

XTP is not consistent and neither is CD.

When it comes to HD/SD ammo, it is a 0 or 1 event. Will if work and perform, or not? When Hornady has to send out "new" boxes of ammo to test, when the box being tested does not work, I call that not.

There are better choices for HD/SD ammo.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:15:43 AM EST
"people of the court, the defendant shot the victim through his windshield––-when even the manufacturer says he would go to jail for doing that!"

Thanks for the legal help, Hornady. I may plink off my CD ammo and get some Gold Dot.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:20:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 5:22:01 AM EST by ske714]
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out?

Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you...
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:21:52 AM EST
It would seem that in a lot of places shooting someone through glass or a barrier would land someone in jail.

If the person is trying to make an escape, it is wise not to shoot.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:23:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheRX7Project:
I still would like to see it tested. I just gave some to a friend of mine in return for letting me take his .45 Long Colt revolver to the range.

brassfetcher@brassfetcher.com

Sales@brassfetcher.com
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:23:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By AR-180:
It would seem that in a lot of places shooting someone through glass or a barrier would land someone in jail.

If the person is trying to make an escape, it is wise not to shoot.


That's really the point of my question, and I think what Hornady was trying to say.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:23:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By ske714:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out?

Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you...


Sure. You're sitting in a car, stopped in traffic, and someone walks up and points a gun at you.

Are you going to roll down your window to shoot?


Their 'marketing manager' needs to stick to technical facts, and not offer legal commentary.


sjohnson@hornady.com

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:24:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By vern23:
Is any round designed to shoot through barriers?


.357 SIG
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:25:22 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:28:59 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:29:13 AM EST
Yep, the crap is designed to be shitty. Why everyone is all gung-ho over it is a testiment to good advertising. "Ooooo, look at the pretty pictures!"
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:31:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By ske714:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out?

Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you...


Guy outside your locked bedroom door, trying to bash it down while yelling that he's gonna kill you and your family when he gets inside? Would that work for you????

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:31:57 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:34:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 5:39:13 AM EST by drobs]
Originally Posted By ske714:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out?

Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you...


Famous footage of a home invasion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZKVQVXLVSM

More footage here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhKCiY-lu0&feature=related

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:39:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By ske714:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out?

Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you...


That's one.

If I'm sitting in my car, parked, and some bad guy runs up and points a gun at me, I will shoot him through the window, if necessary.

If a bad guy is in my house and is shooting at me from behind a corner, I will shoot through the walls to hit him.

There are thousands of examples where doing such a thing is completely justifiable.



OK, I'll by that. I've got Gold Dots in my carry guns, but Honadys in a couple of house guns. Maybe I'll change them out. I like the Gold Dots anyway.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:40:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 5:42:28 AM EST by AR-180]
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By AR-180:
It would seem that in a lot of places shooting someone through glass or a barrier would land someone in jail.

If the person is trying to make an escape, it is wise not to shoot.


A guy shooting at you through a window has free rein to kill you without you returning fire?

Good to know.

It is a silly statement for a manufacturer to make considering all of the various and countless scenarios that might happen in a self defense situation.



I didn't say anything about not returning fire. I don't frequent places where people shoot at me. If you are behind glass and there is shooting, I suspect the glass will get broken if the people can shoot. Many bullets deflect on glass. Many will break glass. The first shot breaks glass, the second ends the fight if things work like they should.

We live in a litigious society. Manufacturers make statements like these all the time. It isn't a big deal. But, if it bothers you, don't use their ammo. That leaves more for me. Based on the data I have seen, it is the best self defense ammo available for my uses.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:43:08 AM EST
Originally Posted By AR-180:
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By AR-180:
It would seem that in a lot of places shooting someone through glass or a barrier would land someone in jail.

If the person is trying to make an escape, it is wise not to shoot.


A guy shooting at you through a window has free rein to kill you without you returning fire?

Good to know.

It is a silly statement for a manufacturer to make considering all of the various and countless scenarios that might happen in a self defense situation.



I didn't say anything about not returning fire. I don't frequent places where people shoot at me. If you are behind glass and there is shooting, I suspect the glass will get broken if the people can shoot. Many bullets deflect on glass. Many will break glass. The first shot breaks glass, the second ends the fight if things work like they should.

We live in a litigious society. Manufacturers make statements like these all the time. It isn't a big deal. But, if it bothers you, don't use their ammo. That leaves more for me. Based on the data I have seen, it is the best self defense ammo available for me.


Actually, in most cases projectiles will simply make holes in glass, especially car windshields and the glass found in home windows.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:43:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By vern23:
Is any round designed to shoot through barriers?

This...

Seems like a non-issue, although he should have left off the bit about probably going to jail...


Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:47:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 5:49:17 AM EST by krpind]
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:50:33 AM EST
Maybe intended for home defense so that it doesn't OVER penetrate??
Good for when you can see and ID the target without ventilating the whole house and endangering other occupants?
Just thinking out loud...
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:51:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By drobs:
Originally Posted By ske714:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out?

Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you...


Famous footage of a home invasion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZKVQVXLVSM

More footage here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhKCiY-lu0&feature=related



Good shoot, except maybe when he was shooting the windshield of the guy trying to leave. That might be hard to resist doing, but also hard to defend later.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:54:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:54:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Easy_E:
Test Test Test Test Test !


This.

I have been carrying this ammo, but have been considering a change. I think I'll stop by the gun shop this afternoon and buy something else. Any suggestions (9mm)?

Link Posted: 9/29/2011 5:58:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By TrojanMan:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
He suggested that I test Critical Defense ammo against these barriers. But I told him that since the manufacturer had already admitted that the ammo would fail if fired through those barriers, any test by me would only be repetitious.


Per the article (it's even underlined) HCD is untested against barrier materials.

Any manufacturer's claims are probably nothing more than liability dodging.


BOOYAH! O_P has something to do today.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 6:00:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ironmaker:

I have been carrying this ammo, but have been considering a change. I think I'll stop by the gun shop this afternoon and buy something else. Any suggestions (9mm)?

DPX, Gold Dot, Bonded Golden Saber.

If you are willing to buy online, HST.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 6:01:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2011 6:02:19 AM EST by HMR85]
In on this... I carry this in my pistol. I'm glad to have found out now then have to find out the hard way. I would love to see some tests done though.
Link Posted: 9/29/2011 6:04:56 AM EST
If you have to shoot through something like that in a personal defense situation you're probably going to jail.


I m not sure if that line is just incredibly short-sighted or an excuse for the performance of the product.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 3
Top Top