This is a link to the thoughts of an Israeli who believes that America has already lost the war against terrorism. It is a very radical view and one that I earnestly hope is not the correct view.

It is, however, a view that must be considered, if even for the purpose of refuting the very thoughts that it attempts to convey.

It is so radical that I will not post any excerpts from the commentary, as I would usually do, because there is no way that it would not offend a great number of people.

The commentary is located at:
[url]http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24755[/url]

Eric The(Lord,HelpUsAll!)Hun[>]:)]

Right on.  I was mumbling to myself that we are doomed when we embrace the very religious people (Islam) that wish us ruined.  We do need to destroy a Muslim landmark and say to the Islamic people, "tit for tat.  Stop your zealots or nothing will remain of your holy sites."  If we are unwilling to take such unseemly acts, if we are unwilling to communicate in the enemy's language of horrible destruction there will be no end.  This campaigne will never be over.  Planerench out.

I fear this guy may be right.  The PC crowd refuse to see what needs to be done and we will pay for that view.  I wonder how the doves among us will behave after the next attack or the one after?

The most important part of the article in terms of understanding this man's point of view is the italicized paragraph at the end:

[i]Moshe Feiglin is the founder and chairman of Manhigut Yehudit – The Jewish Leadership Movement, Israel's fastest growing grass-roots organization. [b]Manhigut Yehudit strives for a Judaism-based leadership for the Jewish State of Israel in the spirit of the Bible and the Prophets.[/b][/i]

In other words, this man and his political party want a Taliban-like religious government, not of laws, but of their version and interpretation of God's word. When they say they want a government "in the spirit of the Bible and the Prophets," don't forget that they only mean the Old Testament half of the Bible, the God of Wrath part.

Ask yourself: Would America waging a Holy War against Islam and blowing up the al-Aqsa mosque further this guy's plans and worldview? You bet your Temple of Solomon it would.

Someone on one of the Israeli-oriented threads yesterday posted in part "whatever is good for Israel is good for America." I disagree.

[b]Freedom isn't free[/b]
Semper Fidelis
Jarhead out.
[img]http://www.inetnow.net/~kudzukid/enlemblem.gif[/img]

Right on, Jarhead.

What people don't realize is that israel is JUST LIKE the taliban, WITHOUT the murder and meanspritedness (so far). In essence, Israel is a RELIGIOUS dictatorship, going against EVERYTHING our Constitution stands for (remember "freedom of relgion?") I know. I have family who have experienced it.

And as far as this Israeli quoted above - Gee, what a shocker. An Israeli who wants America to wipe out all but the most docile, sheeplike Arabs. How is this guy any better than the militant Arabs???? And WHY should we do israels dirty work for them??? I REFUSE to sacrifice MY countrymen for some twisted Israeli objective.

America FIRST, America BEST, and SCREW the rest.

Just my $0.02 (adjusted for inflation, worth about $0.005)

That would make a hell of a banner.

If there's anything this Southern boy learned from William T. Sherman and his dreadful march to the sea, it is that once a nation engages itself in a war, it must be disposed to use every single weapon in its arsenal to rapidly and effectively bring the war to an end.

In the long run, such a war would actually save lives, by making the enemy's continued fighting and resistance insupportable.

Ask the US Eigth Air Force crews if they [u]enjoyed[/u] raining down bombs on folks who were most likely distantly related to them. If there had been a CNN back in those days, the photos of German/Italian/French/Japanese/etc. children lying dead on the streets would have been a devestating blow to morale in the US.

But given the options facing them, the American Public would have understood that 'war is hell' and gotten on with the war effort. Period.

I sincerely doubt that would be the case in today's America.

Eric The(AndYouCanBetAmerica'sEnemiesUnderstandThat!)Hun[>]:)]

It is sad to see one using G-d to justify their own position, when it is one of closed mind. There will always be that percent of any group that take a message to the extreme. As Jews we have those that even refuse to accept other Jews as not being Jewish enough for them. The conversion or marriage was not done by their Rabbi, therefore G-d does not accept it.
Eric your post brings the perspective that there are those that although Jews do not hold the same beliefs of all Jews.
I work in corrections, we have alarge muslim population in our facility. I went one day to a black mosque, as I had some questions. Imagine the poor teen boy at the door when a 6'7" cop walks  up and asks to speak to the Inman.
The Inman and I talked for over an hour. When I left we started to shake hands a he thanked me. Instead we shook and hugged as it is in the middle east. At that point it was two men of
G-d, we might have different colors, different beliefs,but we are both of the same G-d.
The terrorists might have been calling to Allah as they did their deed, but the others in that planes, the innocents, those men that sacrificed their  lives to save others, also called  out to God, G-d or even Allah.  And G-d heard them, for a  point in time, we in the U.S. and the world, have called out to our G-d, G-d will listen to the righteous, to those that hold him to their heart.
Israel is more than the dirt that is  in the middle east, it is the heart and soul of many people, Jews, Christians, and Muslims.
My ancestors were excommunicated from the Roman  Church, because when they returned from the middle east, they had a crazy notion that Jews, Christians, and  Muslims were brothers. In this time of tragedy, this is what we must realize, and not let the likes of Osama Bin Laden or anyone sow their seed of hatred.

I see that you have found a brother in arms, but realize that there is freedom of religion in Israel, there are Christians, muslims and otheres there. There is state support for Judiasm, yet the political  leaders  are dfrom different sects of Judiasm and sometimes merely secular.

I read about half the op piece, but quit once it enraged me beyond words.

Other than THESE words...

This turd (Moshe) IS capable of conspiring to carry out the WTC "bombings" making America think the Arabs did it. To him, the ends justifies the means. To him, Arabs must die, no matter WHAT it takes. Even 7,000 dead US civilians.

I am angered beyond words.

My sister in law was there about 10 years ago.

She passed out salvation tracts at risk of going to jail. The tactic at teh time was to throw them out the window of a moving bus. In short, Christianity was in conflict with teh Gov't approved religion. That AIN'T 'relgious freedom."


Now I don't know if anything has changed in the last ten years, but I CAN tell you NOTHING changed from the time of Christ to ten years ago.

What BAFFLES me are my Christian brethren who support a nation that REJECTS, PERSECUTES and MOCKS the Gospel of my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Post from garandman -

Wrong, garandman, Israel is far and away a whole lot more secular than the people who think the way Moshe Feiglin would like it to be!

Are you saying that the Israelis have closed the churches and mosques in Israel?  That is what a RELIGIOUS dictatorship would do at the very first moment that it seized power.

We haven't heard that yet, now, have we?

Eric The(SoYouThinkThisISN'TAReligiousWar?)Hun[>]:)]

I think there has been plenty of murder and meanspiritedness.  Israeli soldiers are murdered, but Palestinian civilians only die.  A thrown rock is a deadly weapon at a range of 20 yards so the correct reponse is to fire live ammunition at the thrower.  We should follow by these rules...it would have ended the LA riots and Michigan State riots a lot sooner.  The Chinese really had the right idea when they ran those students over with tanks.  Some people have a lot of nerve...it's just freedom, what's the big deal?

read above where I explained what my sister in law ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED.

Yup, religious dictatorship, that has not AS YET gone to the extremes of the "Tallybun."


garan(GiveEmTime)dman

Two more points -

1. So since they haven't closed churches, I'm supposed to think wonderful things about Israel?? ANY nation that has LESS religious freedom than America is unacceptable. Any nation that REJECTS that its peoples should be able to hear of [b] Jesus Christ the Messiah for ALL peoples [/b]is NOT a nation I want to financially support the war efforts of.


2. YES, it IS a religious war. Sons of Abraham fighting over daddy's inheritance. AND WE SHOULD FRIGGIN' BUTT OUT.

As a fundamentalist Christian who supports a very active missionary program in Israel, I am well aware of the severe difficulties that the State of Israel puts in the way of Christians, who either live, work, and travel there.

It's usually done to protect some fragile coalition with Orthodox hardliners in the Knesset, but that is scant justification for it!

Still, the times they are a'changing even in Israel.

Eric The(RememberingHISPromisesAreForever)Hun[>]:)]

Wait a minute garandman, you're not a son of Abraham? I am! I thought you were too![>]:)]

I am a Reform Jew as are the majority of American Jews, the Orthodox  in Israel do not accept us, even though they need us. There are movements to change and that will happen in time, but it is better  than no Israel.  
Recently the Rabbis and Bishop of the  Roman Church have signed a pact of agreement and understanding in my area....it is a start.
It does make me wonder how  G0d feels about all of this?

Yes, we both are.

Have you read Galatians 3 yet, as I suggested???

Gal. 3:29  - "And IF ye be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to THE promise."

Gal 3:16 - "Now to Abraham and to his seed were the promises made. He does NOT say "seeds" in the plural, but he says "seed" in the singular - namely Christ."

[b]In summary, if a Jew is NOT in Christ (i.e., repented, turned from sin, and embraced the new Covenant) , he is NOT a child of Abraham, and NOT entitled to the eternal promises. The Jews WERE entitled to the CONDITIONAL, temporal promises (i.e. the land of Palestine) IF, big ole IF, they met the "conditions." They did not, and they forfeited the land.[/b]

Today (under the NEW covenenat, which means the OLD covenant has ceased and been REPLACED) , God even says "Don't lay up treasures on this earth." that applies to ALL people - Jew and gentile. A Jew that seeks the land of Israel today is in disobedience to Gods command.

Actually, the Abramic covenant is always in effect just in the background during the church age.  After the church is taken out of the way the Abramic will again be in the forefront and the tribulation (Jacob's trouble) will occur to prepare the nation of Isreal for their Messiah the second time.  God chooses who He will and sometimes despite the person's (nation's) own will.  He will establish Isreal as the chief of nations for HIS sake, not Isreal's.  You must remember our very existance is at God's pleasure.  If He makes a promise it is in effect though the whole world oppose it (at Armageddon most will).

I don't favor Isreal in my judgements because they are a great people, on the contrary.  I believe God chose them as the under dog (in the Bible He frequently does).  I favor them because He will and currently does bless those that bless them and curse those that curse them.  So by a national support of Isreal I believe we are putting the best interest of the USA first.  If I didn't believe that I would be of the "let them fight it out amongst themselves" croud.

As it pertains to the current situation however, those we are at war with will not hear if we execute bin Laden.  They will not hear if we capture and try bomb makers.  They will only cry for peace when we hurt them as they have attemted to hurt us.  Imagine the greatest dream of the terrorist and mix that same poison for him.  This is not our nature but it is the only solution.  Planerench out.

Planerench -

So what is our message to the Jew today??

If they are God's people, do they need to get saved?? if they don't get saved, do they go to Hell?? If tehy go to Hell because they are unsaved, doesn't that mean God send His "chosen people" to Hell?? Then why would I want to be God's "chosen people?"

Worse yet...

If we tell them they are God's "chosen people", wouldn't they be right in thinking they don't need to get saved?? Why would "God's chosen" need anything eelse?? And then if they die in their sins, and go to hell, wouldn't they be right in blaming us before God for their eternal judgemnt in hell???

Read Galatians 3. It is VERy revealing.

Same as to the Gentile! Believe, Repent, Confess, Be baptised of water and of the spirit, and 'continue in His goodness'. [>]:)]

but we present the Jew a schizophrenic God that on the one hand holds the Jew as His "chosen people" but would still send that Jew to hell if he remains unsaved.

The 'true Jew' will turn his heart to G-d at the correct and appropriate time. At His time, not ours. [>]:)]

Interesting read and point of view.  It would have been better if it wasn't quite so self-serving.  Especially towards the end.

Post from Stealth -

I know, I know, garandman and I would be a lot better company for the rest of you if we confined our religious debates to e-mail!

Eric The(PointTaken)Hun[>]:)]

Most of the time "offend" and "stating things you are unwilling to accept" are synonymous.

It's an interesting article, but I'm not sure just what it is that Feiglin wants.


What are these defeats that Israel has allegedly suffered?  


I agree that America has problems identifying the enemy, but what is the "notion of power"?


What are the message and the mission?


This part, at least, makes sense.


I don't believe that most Christians hate Judaism, or even Islam.  Hate generally springs from fear, and most Christians have no reason to fear other religions.


He [i]might[/b] be onto something here.


So is genocide the answer?


This, I think, is a valid point.


Again, Feiglin seems to be hinting at a genocidal solution.

(continued from previous message)


Feiglin's closer to the mark here, IMHO.


That sounds great.  But what, exactly, is the winning strategy?


???


I really don't think that many Moslems believe that Allah is embodied in a couple of shrines.  Feiglin's use of "god" here doesn't make sense.


If Feiglin thinks that the US can destroy the El-Aksa mosque and the Kaba without killing anyone, he's nuts.

BTW, I believe that open warfare between Islam and the West is exactly what bin Laden wants.

Oh garandman, did you learn all that from a Christian Identity handbook or website. You guys make me sick.

Where is my reply?

Debate away!  I was only referring to the article.

patience, my child.

No, I did not.

I would have thought the Scripture references I gave would have made it evident I got my material from [size=4] the Bible[/size=4]

What is thius "christian I dentity" thing?? Some neo-Nazi thing I imagine. If so, that means you probably want to paint me as a Nazi.

Gee - that tactic is so new and original. I NEVER saw it coming [rolleyes] How clever of you. How completely unique. You got me. I confess. I'm a Nazi, and the son of a Nazi. [rolleyes]

Sorry, 7_62__for_me, but there are times when expressing one's religion requires that ordinary and customary concerns over manners must take a second place. That's why religion is a very bad subject to bring up among strangers, but a good matter for discussion among friends.  As quite a few people will agree, and as you know quite well, you are among friends on this Board.

Christianity is not the antithesis of Judaism in my view, but, IMHO, the most excellent fulfillment of everything that was sacred and holy in our common Bible.  Jesus was at the very least the most uncommon Rabbi who ever taught or read the Law in a Synagogue, anywhere, at anytime!

That we Christians feel that He was much, much more than that, should not cause you to avoid the subject of our faith but to investigate it thoroughly for yourself!

I would suggest that you may wish to read the book by Alfred Edersheim 'The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah.' You do not have to consider Jesus to be the true Messiah in order to learn more of First Century Juadism.

This book is also found, complete, on this website:[url]http://www.ccel.org/e/edersheim/lifetimes/[/url]

I would hope that you and others go there to learn more of both Judaism and Christianity at the beginning of our common era.

Eric The(Believing)Hun[>]:)]

We are. Indirectly.it goes to my premise that much of the Islamic worlds animosity towards us comes from teh fact that we support Israel. All you need to do to see that is to understand that thrity years ago (prior to our stuanch support of Israel) the Arabs didn't dislike us that much.

Much of the ratioanle for our support of Israel hinges on "the fine points"  of God's Word.

My desire is that BEFORE we enagage the ENTIRE Muslim world in a Jihad, which they are CLEARLY willing to die to win, we investigate the POSSIBILITY that our support of Israel is the CAUSE of their hatred toward us.

And that NECESSITATES discussing "religious" fine points.

Garandman, Arial Fleischer (Whitehouse spokesman) has just announced the Bush administrations support for an independent Palastinian State!

I'm serious as a heart attack!

DaMan

Raf-

thanks for the reply. well stated.

let me summarize.

I believe the Arabs hate us PRIMARILY because we sell their enemies the missiles and ordnance to kill Arabs.

You believe that the Muslims hate us PRIMARILY because of our lifestyles and prospoerity and how American culture has harmed their children. (NOT meaning to put words in your mouth)

BOTH viewpoints have validity in that they are essentially UNTESTED.

My point is that let's REMOVE the ONE source of irritation that we can remove - our support of Israel.

THEN if they continue to hate us, we go and exterminate ANY AND ALL Arabs ANYWHERE that continue hating us for our prosperity and culture.

DaMan -

here's the problem - support of a Palestinian state just swings the pendulum back the other way.

What I want is COMPLETE AND TOTAL NON-interference. I support a Palestinian state ONLY if they can go make it happen. I supprt Israeli dominance ONLY if THEY can go make it happen.

To quote from the promo for the new movie "Training Day" - (ethan Hawke)"What? just let the animals kill each other off??

(Denzel washington) God willing."

One of the most difficult aspects of this "debate" is that there is a predominant view of history which is false.  The idea is: here's one culture, and here's another culture, and one beats-on another, then there's a reversal, and the good guys win some battles, then the bad guys win some battles, and its all a sort-of equilibrium tug-of-war.  But the balance of good and bad stays pretty much the same.

This is a false and dangerous concept of history.  History does not repeat itself.  New things happen often.  Sometimes changes happen that are never reversed.

[b]Islam is a threat to the entire free world.[/b]

It is not inconcievable that the confrontation between the West and Islam will lead to the end of the West, and freedom.

Look at the 20-or-so countries that are dominated by Islam.  [b][i]Every one of those societies has become absolutely closed.[/b][/i]

I find myself agreeing entirely with the main premise of the article's author.

Mohammed started a war and spent the last years of his life wielding a sword to kill his enemies.  His followers continued that war for 100 years.

Islam is a nation-building religion.  Islam is not afraid to point a gun at your head and say: "Confess ALLAH to be the only god or you're dead."  Islam leads to closed society, because it demands absolute outward conformity.

In contrast to Mohammed, the Founder of Christianity preached the blessedness of "hungering and thirsting for righteousness", of being a peacemaker, of exercising mercy, doing good for your enemies, and loving them.  Among His last words He forgave those who unjustly had Him tortured and brutally executed.

Christianity's detractors love to drag up medeaval wars and Northern Ireland as examples of Christianity being just as bad as Islam.  This is pure nonsense.  A better example of a nation dominated by Christianity is America.

All of the West's freedoms are built on FREEDOM OF CONSCIENCE.  And that freedom is found in Christianity, because Christianity is a religion of the heart.

I pointed out that Islamic nations are uniformly closed societies.  In contrast, America was founded on the principle that the only way to make converts is conversion of the heart.  This means individuals are responsible in their OWN CONSCIENCE to believe one thing or another.  The people who stepped off the Mayflower knew this.  Although there have been BRIEF cases of state-associated churches in this county, anyone who has read a New Testament knows that this is a bad idea.  

Freedom to worship based on your own convictions is in the Constitution because its at the core of Christianity.

(continued)

(continued)

Having said that, the Constitution is a human document.  America may think it can embrace Islam as "just another religion" but it fundamentally destroys freedom of religion.  The authors of the Constitution did not anticipate the growth of Islam in America.

Even to write this, it sounds like I'm saying freedom of religion doesn't apply to Muslims.  I am NOT saying that Muslims should be forced at gunpoint to abandon Islam, because that goes against the grain of Christianity's freedom of conscience.

The only conclusion I can come to is that America is a confused place right now.  It wants to be free, and show its generosity by embracing a religion (Islam) that imprisons its opposition.  Thus America carries in its own Constitution the seeds of its own destruction.

[b][i][u]AND NOW A MESSAGE TO THE CHRISTIANS OUT THERE[/b][/i][/u]
Ponder this: Christianity wasn't born in America, it was born and FLOURISHED in a pluralistic society that imprisoned, tortured and killed the early Christians.  Unless America goes to war against Islam (very unlikely), you may see the day that an angry mob of Muslims will do what they do the world over (Indonesia and Sudan, for example): come down the street with whatever weapons they have at their disposal to "deal with the infidels."

The phrase "What Would Jesus Do?" will take on a whole new dimension.

Hmmm!  You make a good point there, Garandman!

But, I think this move will win us some bases and good will in the Arab world.

DaMan

We should remember what the Arabs say:

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

When the WTC came down, the PEOPLE of Israel were saddened, heartbroken, they mourned our dead.
At the same time (across town), the arabs cheered and danced.

We can't avoid a Jihad by hiding, or doing what the arabs want us to do. That will only embolden them. Besides, we're in it NOW, whether we like it or not.

Arabs and palestinians are Israeli citizens and members of Israel's parliment.  Israel follows the rule of law.
Palestinians, meanwhile, teach their children (in school!) that all jews must die.

Dropping our support for Israel, NOW, would be seen as a sign of weakness. Not at all smart.

MAJ Murphy, I don't think this means that we are DROPPING support of Israel!  But I DO THINK it demonstrates that the US still has powerful  influence over Israeli policy!

That's important!  Many Arabs think the tail wags the dog (when it comes to US/Israeli policy)!  And in many cases THEY are right!

DaMan

The arabs live in a world of fantasy. I mean this literally.  They mix truth and fiction, myth and reality.  It's part of their culture, and it's why we will never understand them.  
After the Gulf War, many Palestinians believed that hunderds of thousands of Americans and Israelis had been killed.  They believed that Saddam's retreat was tactical, and that he had a trick up his sleeve.  They didn't think this because of misinformation or propaganda.  It's how they think.

We should stop worrying about what the arab world thinks, or feels.  We should stop being concerned about their "impressions" of us.  
Our only concern should be victory.
We need to get back to imposing our will on those who are wrong.  That goes for Israel, too.

If paying attention to the Arabs' feelings allows us to better manipulate them, with our victory as our focus, FINE.
Let's just stop actually caring about their feelings.
It's a waste of precious time.

Our nation, our freedom, and Western Civilization are in jeopardy, if we do not defeat this enemy.
Do we all know this?
Do we all agree?
We should do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to ensure this victory.

But wouldn't victory require making the Arab (Muslim) world think that attacking America is no longer worthwhile?

The atomic bombings of Japan in WWII didn't cripple their military, but it did make quite an "impression" on them.

Renamed, you hit the nail on the head.
That shouldn't be a "feeling" or an "impression" they have of us, it should be an animal-like fear.

One point we have forgotten,according to Islam, they are not to make a jihad against the people of  the book, ie: the Christians and Jews, so Allah will have to punish them,

...but even that can be a distraction.