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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 11/2/2001 6:51:52 PM EDT
Well, since it seems to have become a sport on this board to post one sided accounts of Negative Police Encounters, I figure I'll post a few documented accounts of Police encounters with the Public that didn't turn out so well for the Police. When I finish, (It will be quite some time, due to # of incidents to report, and I'd like to make this an on-going feature here), let's total the scores, and see who's been screwed over the worst. OK? Let's get started with one that is kinda personal to me, as I knew the Trooper. Texas Department of Public Safety Trooper Randall Vetter died at 10:24 p.m. on August 7, 2000 at Brackenridge Hospital in Austin. Trooper Vetter was shot in the head on August 3, 2000 after he stopped Melvin Edison Hale, 72, to ticket him for not wearing a seat belt. The shooting occurred during broad daylight on the frontage road of IH 35 in Kyle, about 20 miles south of Austin. The suspect exited his vehicle and began shooting with a rifle(Mini-14) while the trooper was still sitting in his patrol car. Trooper Vetter was able to return fire, but did not strike the suspect. An off duty officer, who happened to be passing by, witnessed the shooting and alerted other officers. Hale was arrested a short distance from the scene after Hays County Sheriff's deputies shot out the tires on his vehicle. Hale held Deputies, and DPS troopers at bay for some time, until he was convinced to surrender. He was known to area officers as having anti-government sentiments and had made claims that he would shoot any officer who tried to arrest him. However, Vetter had only been working in Hays County for several months and was not aware of the threat. Trooper Vetter is survived by father, Kermit Vetter, a lieutenant for the Comal County Sheriff's Department, his wife Cynthia and his eight-month old son, Robert. ********************************************* Now, The ironic thing here is that Hale truly believed that his constitutional rights were being violated by being forced to wear a seat belt. A fact that was revealed during his post-arrest interview. He felt that he was justified in Killing a State Trooper in cold blood, because the Trooper was enforcing an "Unconstitutional" law. I've heard that there are other degenerates out there who have similar beliefs. But of course, I'm not talking about ANYONE on this board. Oh, one other thing. This Trooper had civil rights too. "HAD" being the key word here. Now, Flame on. You'll excuse me if I don't take the time to get into pissing matches with you while you do your damnest to prove the Police wrong in these cases. I don't have time. I have a few thousand more documented Police Travesties to bring to your attention. And it's hard, because I too get so mad I can't type.... Rich
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:26:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:28:51 PM EDT
All I can say is the National Law Enforcement Memorial during police week can be a very sober experience. RIP Trooper Vetter. "just a job" huh?
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:34:02 PM EDT
So, whats your point? I don't think you will find anyone in this group that supports any action of murder of a peace officer, or think that they are of a lesser class than any of us. But when a citizen falls into the wrong side of a peace officer that has an "attitude",are we to just turn the other cheek, or try to retain our rights? From your post, I believe you think we should be just worshiping at the bootheels of anyone with a badge. I don't think so. Any average citizen deserves the respect that the officer deserves, so we use these boards to vent and hold their feet to the fire. The numbers of jerk officers are few, so just keep it in perspective. We are not the enemy......fullclip
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:35:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:40:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 7:40:49 PM EDT
Oh, I almost forgot.... Notice too, those heavy Badged, Jack-booted, Gun Grabbing, Thug Cops spent a couple of Hours talking this Lunitic into giving up, as he was standing outside his car, swinging that mini-14 around in thier direction. They were fully aware that he had just murdered a brother Officer and friend, and they were totally justified in cutting him down like a rabid dog...But they didn't. No Comment..... Rich
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 8:08:20 PM EDT
Thanks Rich
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 8:51:22 PM EDT
btt
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 8:54:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2001 10:54:10 PM EDT
When you find that perfect world, please invite the rest of us. Rich
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 6:55:17 AM EDT
Doublefeed and Rapid fire, I knew both officers. I'd gone to court with Randy and work the same patrol area as William Jones, the Austin Park Officer. (Austin's PD's David sector) Both were good men. Both were killed over minor traffic stops. Randy with a Mini-14, William with a .380 Bersa. (three rounds to the throat.) William's shooter was a felon with a violent history, Randy's was a lunatic with a violent history. At the time of Randy's shooting all sorts of "Patriots" swarmed to the lunatic's defense, saying it's perfectly fine to kill police officers in such situations, many of them posters on this very board. (Do a search. Some of these guys are really foaming at the mouth) Some "patriots" even went to the point of advocating the targeting of peace officers wives and children. RF, I appreciate what you're trying to do, but in my experience over 5 years that this has been just about the most anti-police gunsite on the net. Even AK-47.net and Assaultweb don't get this bad by a long shot. I suggest you just keep tab of the loudmouths and lunatics and ignore them. it's what I do. If you guys ever want to go shooting, drop me a line. I'll introduce you to some of the more stable AR15 members locally. Doublefeed, just for the record, William's murderer was pursued by Houston and Katy area LE that same afternoon, he did not survive the experience.
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 7:18:08 AM EDT
Rich, first of all, thanks for your work as a police officer. Honest, law abidding citizens such as myself are on your side and are glad you guys are out there maintaining law and order. I would, however, like to point out that abuses do occur. I have several cops that I consider close friends and they are all level headed, decent people. They are what I'll call "Andys". Unfortunately, there are a few "Barneys" out there as well. These are the guys that overreact to most situations. They look for a reason to point (or worse) their gun at someone. They thrive on the "power trip". I fear these guys and I don't break the law! What we have here is a case of a few bad apples. I'd love to see a system where police officers are above reproach, where there's accountability to other officers for the "Barneys". As for the posters here, some are to hard on LE. Some (a few) are downright nutcases! I'd hate to think where we would be without you guys on the front lines every day. Thanks again for your efforts.
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 8:10:46 AM EDT
The Fallen Officer threads were designed to be Anti-cop, lunatic magnets. As you can see, it worked!!! I knew they wouldn't be able to resist. They had worked themselves into a Cop Bashing frenzy. I came along and rained on their party. as you can see, it clearly INFURIATED them..:) Oh, well...as they say in Russia, Tough Shitzki..:) GB could do this site a WORLD of good, by showing these fanatics the door. Now that they've been drawn out into the light. But at least, the site makes for a good central repository for the FEDs to watch the lunatics at play. Rant on Lunies!!! Rich
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 1:23:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rapid_Fire: The Fallen Officer threads were designed to be Anti-cop, lunatic magnets. As you can see, it worked!!! I knew they wouldn't be able to resist. They had worked themselves into a Cop Bashing frenzy. I came along and rained on their party. as you can see, it clearly INFURIATED them..:) Oh, well...as they say in Russia, Tough Shitzki..:) GB could do this site a WORLD of good, by showing these fanatics the door. Now that they've been drawn out into the light. But at least, the site makes for a good central repository for the FEDs to watch the lunatics at play. Rant on Lunies!!! Rich
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Same BS as your last thread I see!! Your a disgrace to your profession and/or a poser.[-!-!-]
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 1:35:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/3/2001 2:02:14 PM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
I got a good chewing today by the "brass" after I had a run in with a couple of high school aged boys. Seems they were going around shooting paintball guns at cars and the occasional person. Only problem is, they were loaded with marbles. These guns are slinging these marbles out at over 400 fps and do quite a number on a car. They would also do quite a number on a person too. I doubt it would be fatal (except for head shot), but would fall into the serious injury catagory. Anyway, I found these clowns and approached them. One thought is was wise to shoulder his gun in an attempt to sight in on me. I ordered him to drop the gun twice, which fell on deaf ears. Since I was still 25 ft or so away, OC was out. I instinctly drew my weapon and ordered him to drop his. (I normally would not draw down on a kid with a paintball gun, except I had immediate prior knowledge of their ammo selection.) He then dropped his without hesitation. The whole thing went down without incident, guns were taken, clowns were hooked up and charges filed for the vehicle damages. It was only when the parents came to get them that I found out that one daddy was a good friend of the asst. chief and didn't care for his boy having a pistola pointed at his kid. (Nevermind the fact that his kid was out committing vandalism, etc.) I tried to reflect about the whole thing and see if I would do anything differently. I can only say that I feel that i acted correctly and am now just a victim of politics and not excessive force. (posted on glocktalk) (not by me) this is more the kind of stuff that officers have to deal with.........
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 1:46:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ipschoser1: Rich, first of all, thanks for your work as a police officer. Honest, law abidding citizens such as myself are on your side and are glad you guys are out there maintaining law and order. I would, however, like to point out that abuses do occur. I have several cops that I consider close friends and they are all level headed, decent people. They are what I'll call "Andys". Unfortunately, there are a few "Barneys" out there as well. These are the guys that overreact to most situations. They look for a reason to point (or worse) their gun at someone. They thrive on the "power trip". I fear these guys and I don't break the law! What we have here is a case of a few bad apples. I'd love to see a system where police officers are above reproach, where there's accountability to other officers for the "Barneys". As for the posters here, some are to hard on LE. Some (a few) are downright nutcases! I'd hate to think where we would be without you guys on the front lines every day. Thanks again for your efforts.
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Ok, I don't think anyone could reasonably argue with the points in your post. I think tho' Rapid_fire is trying to point out that there are a lot of posts here that are basically BS about LEO's. He may be getting tired of the "what if the cops try to take my gun, I'll kill'em posts", and the number of "normal" people on this web site that jump onto that logic. There is a differnce between discussing Rights and the actions of LEO's or any other person and just bashing. Yes LEO's screw up some are mean, nasty people, but a lot of the talk on this site seems to say you can't trust ANY LEO they ALL lie and are thugs. Frankly it's childish and getting old. Also look at the number of posts that this has generated basically saying "so what" a LEO died, they knew that was a possibility going into the job. We all start dying as soon as we're born, applying your logic no one should care when someone else dies it was inevitable. As far as LEO's being killed, and why some feel it might be noteworthy[red] BECAUSE THEY WERE PROBABLY DUING THEIR DUTY SO THAT JOHN Q PUBLIC DIDN'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH BG'S. IN OTHER WORDS THE THIN BLUE LINE BLEEDING SO YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO.[/red]
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 2:01:29 PM EDT
Glad you're Ok Oly-M4gery. If that kid had acted slightly more threatening and you had shot him, I would have supported you. I find it disgraceful that that little punk would point *anything* at you in the first place. If you had shot him, I say it would be the fault of his parents for their damn bad job of raising that kid. At a minimum, and in any case, you should have totally hosed that kid down with peppergas. Too Harsh? Not at all. During the 30 minutes he was suffering through his chemical burns, he might be deciding to straighten out his life and develop some good judgement so that he could avoid becoming a JAIL-BIRD. Anyhow, no one hurt, and perps in jail, so things turned out ok. You have plenty of restraint and nothing to be ashamed of. Good Job.
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 2:07:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Erasmus: Glad you're Ok Oly-M4gery. If that kid had acted slightly more threatening and you had shot him, I would have supported you. I find it disgraceful that that little punk would point *anything* at you in the first place. If you had shot him, I say it would be the fault of his parents for their damn bad job of raising that kid. At a minimum, and in any case, you should have totally hosed that kid down with peppergas. Too Harsh? Not at all. During the 30 minutes he was suffering through his chemical burns, he might be deciding to straighten out his life and develop some good judgement so that he could avoid becoming a JAIL-BIRD. Anyhow, no one hurt, and perps in jail, so things turned out ok. You have plenty of restraint and nothing to be ashamed of. Good Job.
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WASNT ME I stole it from a glock talk post...... altho' I did get into a situation this week.........can't talk. But that story rings so true IMHO about what happens at PD's/SO's. Someone behind a desk always know what you did wrong......but you get a confused look when you say "what should have I have done??"
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 2:09:48 PM EDT
By RICHARD JOHNSON with PAULA FROELICH and CHRIS WILSON November 1, 2001 -- Injured cop fumes at Hillary SEN. Hillary Clinton has never been a favorite of rank-and-file New York cops, but it is certain she has now lost the vote of Westchester County Police Officer Ernest Dymond. Dymond, a 19-year veteran of the force, has been out of work for more than two weeks after he was injured while trying to stop a black van carrying Clinton from blasting through a security checkpoint at Westchester County Airport on Oct. 14. Dymond was one of three uniformed cops manning the sensitive gateway at the White Plains airport - which is on high alert because of terror risks - when a Ford conversion van carrying Clinton and her Secret Service detail rolled toward them at about 35 mph. After her Secret Service driver drove through the checkpoint, Dymond yelled for it stop, and injured his shoulder while banging on the side of the van. After the vehicle finally stopped about 300 feet past the checkpoint, Dymond described Clinton's driver as "quite agitated" when the cop asked him for identification. "I didn't know if we had a terrorist," Dymond, 47, told the Washington Times, "and once I found out who he was, I was even more agitated that he, of all people, should have known." Clinton, who is said to have been talking on her cell phone while the van drove toward her private plane, did not talk to Dymond, who briefly checked into St. Agnes Hospital in White Plains. A Secret Service spokesman said there was "a little confusion" about whether Clinton's motorcade should stop or not, claiming that some cops were waving the van through. Clinton's spokeswoman told PAGE SIX: "The local police have said that she has nothing to do with this, and the Secret Service has made clear that some of the local police waved her through." While her handlers are dismissing it as a non-story, some Hillary-haters are grumbling about a "Vangate" cover-up, if you will. The incident got more play in the Washington Times than in any other news outlet. Dymond, who has been ordered not to give any more interviews about the incident, recently told conservative Web site newsmax.com that no one from the senator's office has called to apologize to him. Clinton's carelessness isn't likely to help her chilly relations with New York's Finest. Just days after her run-in with Dymond, she was heckled by booing cops and firefighters when she took the stage at the star-studded Concert for New York Oct. 20 at the Garden. (taken off glock talk)
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 2:19:23 PM EDT
Oh...so sad... look at the tough COPs crying... Revenge is a bitch ain't right...When you shoot innocent people (by mistake) its OK but when you get shot back its "cop killing" You chose this (your) job, so shot the hell up and jump in front of the flying lead to protect the public. Remember YOU are Public Servants, I pay your salary and if I decide to spit on MY patrol car (that I payt for) you should lick it to keep MY car clean. Feel good to tell a cop to take a walk and they can not pull theiy (hell, MY) guns out.
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 2:32:54 PM EDT
Oops--was too tired to read your post carefully. Stay safe and good luck, anyhow.
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 2:40:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Erasmus: Oops--was too tired to read your post carefully. Stay safe and good luck, anyhow.
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no that was my bad, I should have been clearer. I don't want to t"take credit" for waht happened to someone else.
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 5:16:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Johninaustin: Doublefeed and Rapid fire, I knew both officers. I'd gone to court with Randy and work the same patrol area as William Jones, the Austin Park Officer. (Austin's PD's David sector) Both were good men. Both were killed over minor traffic stops. Randy with a Mini-14, William with a .380 Bersa. (three rounds to the throat.) William's shooter was a felon with a violent history, Randy's was a lunatic with a violent history. At the time of Randy's shooting all sorts of "Patriots" swarmed to the lunatic's defense, saying it's perfectly fine to kill police officers in such situations, many of them posters on this very board. (Do a search. Some of these guys are really foaming at the mouth) Some "patriots" even went to the point of advocating the targeting of peace officers wives and children. RF, I appreciate what you're trying to do, but in my experience over 5 years that this has been just about the most anti-police gunsite on the net. Even AK-47.net and Assaultweb don't get this bad by a long shot. I suggest you just keep tab of the loudmouths and lunatics and ignore them. it's what I do. If you guys ever want to go shooting, drop me a line. I'll introduce you to some of the more stable AR15 members locally. Doublefeed, just for the record, William's murderer was pursued by Houston and Katy area LE that same afternoon, he did not survive the experience.
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The terd who killed the Austin Park Police Officer was located and chased by Katy PD down I-10 into Houston where Houston PD and Harris County Pct. 5 got in on the chase. That old terd went down to the beltway for a short bit and u turned and, if I remember correctly, he stopped on the feeder and shot himself.
Link Posted: 11/3/2001 10:52:45 PM EDT
Yeah, some of you guys are ok. Some of you aren't. The problem comes from the fact that you stonewall and defend the ones who aren't. Like this guy: [url]http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis/web/vortex/display?slug=vander19m&date=20011019[/url] That's relatively minor -- ok, he kicked some woman from behind, and he pepper-sprayed two girls who were sitting in a car (doing absolutely nothing harmful to anyone). Big deal. Then there was the Seattle officer who accidentally shot and killed a man while holstering his duty handgun, a couple of years ago. Oops. Well, be more careful from now on, ok?! And then there's New York, where they've rammed a toilet plunger handle up an innocent man's asshole after they took him in by mistake, shot and killed a guy who was reaching for his wallet, and so on and so forth. Stop sticking up for the asshole-plungers and the accidental murderers, and the rest of us might have a little more respect for you and a little less fear of you. As it stands, I accord you just as much respect as I do the "black community leaders" who run around screaming that Aristotle Marr is innocent and David John Walker was a victim. (For those who don't follow the Seattle news, the first is a black bank robber, the second is a black mentally-ill man who took a shot at a security guard and ran around waving a knife.)
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 12:24:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dacon: Remember YOU are Public Servants, I pay your salary and if I decide to spit on MY patrol car (that I payt for) you should lick it to keep MY car clean. .
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Thats a lame line that gets rolled out way too often. I pay my salary too. If you are in the private sector, I pay your salary by patronizing your business. We all pay each others salary. Come up with a new argument.
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 12:49:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 1:01:53 PM EDT
And another thing Einstein, be sure to forward this thread to your superiors. You'll be a shoe-in for that detective position.
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 1:13:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/4/2001 1:11:12 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By Rapid_Fire: Now, The ironic thing here is that Hale truly believed that his constitutional rights were being violated by being forced to wear a seat belt.
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Well, I'd say his "rights" were violated, but not constituational rights. Why should an adult be forced to wear a seatbelt, helmet, etc? Personally, I firmly believe in these devises but I don't want to force others.
Originally Posted By Rapid_Fire:He felt that he was justified in Killing a State Trooper in cold blood,
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Well, that's obviously crazy and I don't think anyone here would defend that action. Now if the police were invading his home to steal his property like that poor SOB out in Malibu, that's another story.
Originally Posted By Rapid_Fire: Oh, one other thing. This Trooper had civil rights too. "HAD" being the key word here.
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Yep. So what are you saying, 2 wrongs make a right? Since some poor cop got shot by a crazy man it's perfectly okay and acceptable that a recent drug raid went bad (wrong address) and an officer let one fly from his 12 gauge into the back of a 12 year old boy that he had "subdued" on his knees? So are we "even" now?
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 1:20:41 PM EDT
Rapid fire, if you hold any sort of LEO position in 'real life' you are a disgrace. Your implied suggestion that the fact that LEO's are often shot by criminals with an incorrect view of their rights, in no way modifies my insistance that the vary fact that the accounts you DO complain about because of the bad light they throw upon corrupt LEO's(all one sides accounts, of course, if the LEO's told the story under oath, they would be able to justfy what happened, right?), can and do happen! Much of the modern judicial infrastructure supports these officer's unconstitutional behaviour. When their superiors tolerate and condone these abuses in the sacred name of "Law N'Order", as in many cases they do, and the populace complain about it, DON'T BE SHOCKED. It's not happening everywhere, with everyone, but one time is once too many. Since when did the badge give an LEO the power to overstep his constitutiona boundaries, all for "the greater good"? How can you justify it, or claim to be justtified by accounts of officers who are injured in the line of duty? Relativism and collectivism at it's finest and most visible today, but severly destructive to individual civil rights. Officers who do not encroach on my constitutional rights(you know the ones, Rapid Fire?) will not have a problem with me, we'll get along great. Seach me or my property without a warrant or due cause? Now we have a problem, and no, it's not me. [Justified rant OFF] Juggernaut
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 1:22:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/5/2001 11:37:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/5/2001 11:32:50 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By VA-gunnut: I can't beleive we have these kinds of discussions. There are bad apples on both sides of the fence. I think we need to remember that this is a screwed up world and screwed up shit happens all the time. The best you can do is to watch your ass wether you are an LEO or civilian. If you do the right thing hopefully you will be home at the end of the day. [uzi]
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Yes, there are bad apples on both sides of the fence. But we expect the bad guys to be bad guys, we don't expect the good guys to be bad guys. A young lady here in my town expected the police officer to give her a ride home (don't know the circumstances). She didn't expect him to rape her. Yes, shit happens and it's not a perfect world. But we taxpaying plebes are sick of the authorities covering up their screwups and holding no one responsible. Don't we have a legal precedent about crimes being worse when committed "under the color of law"? We discuss these matters because we are pissed when a Lon Horuchi can shoot and kill Vicky Weaver, the court declares that he was following illegal, unconstitutional orders, yet the charges against him are dropped because "he was following orders". WTF - the courts acknowledge he was following illegal unconstitutional orders, yet he's untouchable? That isn't right.
Link Posted: 11/5/2001 5:17:37 PM EDT
Come on guys don't we ever get tired of these threads.
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