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Posted: 12/17/2002 7:39:40 PM EDT
What’s up with this?

I sell some of my personal stuff on eBay and sell some of my personal firearms at a gun show and they say I’m a business and they want to know how many employees I have and how much I pay them and how come I don’t have a business license and how come I  don’t have a state tax number for collection sales tax.

Has this happened to anyone else or am I the new whipping boy?

Link Posted: 12/17/2002 7:41:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 8:06:00 PM EDT
Colorado did it to me backwards.

I had a business which was mothballed because I was tied up working for another Corp and didn't make any sales for a 12 month period. So they (dept of Revenue) cancelled my biz license.

Now I am back and have a full qtr of transactions and I got to get the tax license back in effect before the end of the year...
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 8:06:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 8:11:51 PM EDT
How the hell did they even get your name?
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 8:12:25 PM EDT
HOW do they know you have been selling stuff?
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 8:13:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 9:10:16 PM EDT
seems to me a private sale is just that. Why the f*ck do you need a license to sell private propery.

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Yes, why would you.....
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 9:18:22 PM EDT
Ebay might have reported him.
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 9:24:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 9:24:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 9:32:38 PM EDT
Wolfpack, The last couple of Republican Governors we had were really bad.

Also every candidate was running hit ads on the republican candidate and he was not he refused to use public funds or to hit back. It’s hard to win a fight when you tie your own hands behind your back.

I don’t know why they call it a race when it’s clearly a fight.

Bottom line is no one told our Republican candidate that it was a fight so he was playing by the wrong rules.

Link Posted: 12/17/2002 9:32:52 PM EDT
Read E-bays fine print.

If not the state got ahold of the gunshow promoters list sellers.

Anyway it's nothing to really sweat. I had a small business before, very small. I simply went to the tax board and filled out the paperwork. Sat with an official for about 10 minutes answering  some questions about how much business I expected to have per month/ quater and year. I told the lady I wasn't sure that I would sell anything at all. I made it clear that I would be surprised if I made a few hundred dollars the first couple of months. She was satisfied with paying tax quaterly. I ended the business not a month later. Some time went by and I got a letter from the tax board. I returned my tax-exemption license with a brief note and check for a very small amount of money. No biggie. The whole reason why I even bothered to obtain the license was to purchase products at wholesale value with no tax for re-sale.
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 9:49:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 11:49:49 PM EDT
I have no business and no employees and I don’t have the energy or ability to operate a business. I am disabled so badly that social security did not even ask for me to see their doctor when they approved me for social security disability. I don’t want to go into it but let’s just say my case has been published in medical journals.

I have missed the next two gun shows because the one I sold at cost me to much physically for it to be worth it for me to do again and I sold over $ 16,000.00 worth from my collection at a loss.
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I wouldn't worry about it.  If your in this condition then go visit your accuser in person. If they persist see them in court.  

I'd drop the part about buying class 3 stuff.  Just tell them you're trying to pay your medical bills. Someone in your condition deserves the benefit of the doubt.  
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 12:05:00 AM EDT
I am being accused of having employees
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If you find a way to convince them that you don't, then I'd really appreciate knowing how.  Last May, the owner of the company I work for was accused by the state of having employees for another company he owns.  He laid-off the last employee almost three years ago.  The state is demanding withholding tax of the same amount that they kept three years ago plus interest!  In other words, they want him to pay the withholding tax for several employees that he didn't have for a period of three years.  The amount is several times what the company is worth.  After having a CPA fight with the state tax commission for over six months, he told me to handle it.  I have no clue what to do.  Like the tax collector told me, I can't prove to him there weren't any employees, so it's easier to pay.  Of course, if you don't have the money, you have to fight.z
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 7:45:54 AM EDT
Just got off the phone with the state of Arizona.

They say if I sell anything (used personal items) even at a loss in the state of Arizona I have to collect sales tax and pay it to them. Even if I only sell one item every year or every ten years.


Link Posted: 12/18/2002 7:52:29 AM EDT
Just got off the phone with the state of Arizona.

They say if I sell anything (used personal items) even at a loss in the state of Arizona I have to collect sales tax and pay it to them. Even if I only sell one item every year or every ten years.

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Just give your stuff away but increase the S&H to the value of the item. Duh...

Link Posted: 12/18/2002 7:59:44 AM EDT
That's true in most states. Even private sales are subject to sales tax. But it difficult to prove this with most sales, since there is usually no paperwork involved.

It's not much of an issue if you make all your sales out of state, but in-state sales could run afoul of tax collection laws.

There are a number of ways the state could find out, but it is mostly dependent upon the amount of selling you do. Selling at a gunshow could be what caused you to come to their attention, again depending on how much you sell. Are you set up with a table at the show, or are you just wandering around trying to sell your guns?

Whether or not you are a business or not depends on how much income these sales total. If they can show that you made a substantial amount compared to other income (or it is your only income) then they can call it a business.

Each state's sales tax laws are different, so mileage may vary.

Another way they could have found out is that you pissed someone off and they turned you in.
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 8:16:19 AM EDT
I lost money. I never made a dime.

This is not an income tax issue for them; it’s a sales tax issue and if I had any it would be an employee withholding issue.

They say I have to list my home address as a business selling firearms. This is illegal and also against our CC&R’s. Not to mention I don’t have an FFL.

Link Posted: 12/18/2002 9:16:36 AM EDT
But sales tax has nothing to do with whether you made a profit or not. If you sell it, you are required to collect the sales tax (if that is the law in your state).

The only time income tax enters into the equation is if you are deriving a part of your income from the sales.

How much selling are you doing? The impression I got was that you are selling stuff you have laying around the house. If that's the case, I don't think they can claim you are a business, unless you are also buying more stuff to sell at the same time. How many guns have you sold? How many gun shows have you sold at? It is possible, as previously posted, that they got a list of vendors from the gun show organizers and found that you didn't have a business license. They may be confused in thinking that you are operating a small, home-based business, which would explain the reason for the business license.

You should check the state requirements for a business license and for paying sales tax. It may give you a hint as to what exactly is going on.
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 9:27:05 AM EDT
Neilfj, they got the information from Cross Roads Of the West.

Things I have laying around the house are things like HK SP89’s HK 94’s AR15’s Kimber custom 45’s OA93’s.

I didn’t sell anything I had not owned for a long time (years) and I have never purchased a firearm with the intent to resell it.

Here is what the current law says and if they would just listen then all would be well.

“Persons making casual sales at swap meets are not required to be licensed or to pay tax. Those persons participating in swap meets who sell items on a regular basis or who participate in swap meets to sell an inventory or to sell items purchased for resale are considered to be in "business," and are subject to the state transaction privilege tax in addition to any applicable county excise tax.”

Mark W. Killian, Director
Signed July 16, 2002

Link Posted: 12/18/2002 9:28:36 AM EDT
It's as simple as this:  Is AZ facing a budget crisis this year like so many other states?  The statists are stuck, you see, and they need to shake us down in every possible way to squeeze us for those extra pennies that add up to millions and billions of dollars of revenue so that they don't have to find honest jobs.

What is a business license?  All it amounts to is a registration systems so that they can track you and tax you.  "Private" sales are becoming the business of the state, that's what eliminating the gun show loophole is all about--next it will be the private car sale loophole, and then the garage sale loophole.  Because, after, garage sales are technically illegal already, they just don't enforce their own laws.

The scary thing about America these days is there are enough laws on the books for tyranny, all they have to do is start enforcing them with more zeal.  
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 9:38:41 AM EDT
Trickshot, I here that brother. Every time I here GW say (when asked about gun control) there are enough laws, we just need better enforcement of the laws we have I just cringe.

Link Posted: 12/18/2002 9:44:46 AM EDT
Here’s a link to the complete ruling on my issue. I called the person in charge of my case and directed them to it. I sure hope she can read and has a brain.

Everyone who has rented a table at a gun show in Arizona should save this link. It took them about five months to come after me.


If you have sold items you purchased with the intent to sell them later you guys are out of luck. I on the other hand should be in the clear.

Link Posted: 12/18/2002 10:11:02 AM EDT
Gee, and you just got a Democrat lesbian gov too huh?
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Sir, please respect our elected officials. The correct term is not "lesbian" but Carpet Muncher.!
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 10:51:43 AM EDT
The Az Tax goons do this at the Watson Lake car show here in Prescott all the time. Shaking down the vendors, even the guys who show up in a ratty truck, selling model T parts.

The sad thing is, the City of Prescott was supposedly involved this year, insisting that the vendors have city business liscences..

I've lived in this state for better than a decade, and to be honest, when I get my degree finished, I'm gone. Weither it's to a diffrent city in Arizona,(hopefully posessing more sense than Prescott)  or another state, I've about had it with the California style politics that have raped this state.

Arizona is going the way many other states posessing a single large metropolitan area have gone. With that city-state deciding what is good, regardless of the desires of the remaining populace. (Michigan, and Detroit is another good example)

No more for me, thanks.

Link Posted: 12/18/2002 11:26:25 AM EDT
Arizona pissed me off about 17 years ago with their "trolling for tax dollars" attitude.

I was in the Air Force stationed at Luke AFB and had the audacity to file a federal income tax return from an address in Arizona without also filing a state tax return.  I left AZ in 1985 and it was not until 1992 that their tax nazis finally tracked me down in England.  The reason it took so long for them to track me down was that I was moving every two years and it wasn't till I was on the 3rd year of a 3 year assignment that they were actually able to catch up with me.

They threatened to freeze all my assets in AZ (my checking account) unless I paid them this arbitrarily contrived amount that represented the ESTIMATED tax owed from 1983-1985 and all the penalties incurred in the intervening years.  Talk about total frigging bullshit.  I paid the amount they wanted but then fought them and actually had to get copies of my W-2's from the years I lived there and mail them to them to prove that I was a military member and a legal resident of California at the time I was staioned there.  It took about three months for the assholes to relent and refund all the money I sent them.
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 11:30:08 AM EDT
Somebody ratted you out...Now try and prove the negative!

Consider yourself screwed.

Sorry DUDE
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 2:02:01 PM EDT
Great news! I just got off the phone with Miss Rhude pronounced Rude and yes she is rude.

She let me know that her definition of causal sales is once in a life time and if I come up on any more lists as a seller at any show she will expect me to be paying taxes on my sales of my personal used property.

I stated to her that I can’t promise that I will never rent another table at a show but and that both I and the supervisor specialist at the department of revenue disagree with her and I told her she should read the ruling again and all is well.

Without my going the extra mile after speaking to her supervisor and then calling the main state office and speaking with someone who could over rule her and her supervisor if they did not listen to reason I have no doubt this self important person would have done all in her power to make my life a living hell.

I’m free, I’m free,I’m free,I’m free,I’m free!!!!!

Link Posted: 12/18/2002 3:00:58 PM EDT
In the future, you have 3 choices

1) STFU and pay the tax.
2) Ignore 'em, and lock and load.
3) Tell 'em to stick it where the sun don't shine, and lock and load.

A choice, I might add, that all of us will eventually be forced to make on some rule, regulation, or law in the near future......
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 4:10:02 PM EDT
Hey, does this apply to selling your ass? If so how much do all those hookers owe? Good way to lock them up, tax evasion.
edited to add-----
or a good way to put them to work! Getting the state outa debt, one stupid fvck at a time!
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 4:28:50 PM EDT
Azcopwannabee, Well since she/he is renting instead of selling this might fall within the ruling portion concerning Managers and operators of swap meets and she/he would have to be licensed and pay a tax on the gross income from rental of space to participants.

Link Posted: 12/18/2002 4:37:54 PM EDT
I'm glad you got this straightened out, and you learned a good lesson. If the first answer you get isn't satisfactory, escalate to a superior and keep escalating until you reach the top, or hear the answer you want. Doesn't always work, but sometimes you get lucky.

Not to defend AZ's actions, but I can see how they may have interpreted your actions as being a business, especially if your name showed up on more than 1 list in a brief period of time. To them, it would appear that you were conducting a business and 'cheating' them out of their tax dollars.

In any case...glad it worked out!
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 4:46:20 PM EDT
Rent a table to DISPLAY your COLLECTION.

Just show and tell,  NOT for sale,  I swear.


Get a Table under a false name


Link Posted: 12/18/2002 11:39:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 6:45:49 AM EDT
So, if the Feds have the ATF to insure their firearms "taxes" are paid, is the state of Arizona going to send in the Staties to collect?
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 8:01:40 AM EDT
Garryowen, Thank you for the thought but there is no need for me to fill it out. A copy of the ruling TPR 02-3 ARIZONA TRANSACTION PRIVILEGE TAX RULING has been placed in my file. What irks me is that this SIPP interprets the word “occasional” as once in a life time. I have a copy of the ruling and the phone number of a senior supervisor who can over rule miss Rhude though if she tries to shake me down again.

Goet,This has nothing to do with firearms sales or firearms taxes. If it where a coin or stamp or baseball or food show or any kind of show the Arizona department of revenue would do the same thing. I just happened to be selling some of my personal firearms and they decided I was a gun shop and if I sell some of my coin collection then I’m a coin shop and so on and so on and so on.

Link Posted: 12/30/2002 7:42:47 AM EDT
Thisisme:  That was my intended purpose.  They are only collecting revenue.  Only diff. is, taxation with guns can be enforced by calling up the ATF to come burn down your house.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 8:40:46 PM EDT
There ya go. I think this gentleman hit the nail on the head. (Trickshot) The state claims it's broke. Did ya notice how many DUI arrests have been since the beginning of the holiday season? Alot more than any year previous. revenue man, revenue
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 9:47:07 PM EDT
So if you sell some OLD PLAYBOYS at a yard sale you are running a PORNO SHOP in a residential area, isn't that a felony?
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 10:11:09 PM EDT
I lost money. I never made a dime.

This is not an income tax issue for them; it’s a sales tax issue and if I had any it would be an employee withholding issue.

They say I have to list my home address as a business selling firearms. This is illegal and also against our CC&R’s. Not to mention I don’t have an FFL.

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Check into having them prosecuted on Federal charges. They are ordering you to violate Federal law.....


Link Posted: 12/30/2002 10:56:42 PM EDT
Guys I agree with you on all counts but this is a dead issue for me because there are things you have to do to be required to pay this stupid tax.

1# You have to be buying product with the intent to resell it.

2# You have to be doing it to earn money.

3# You have to be selling on more than a casual basis.

I do not qualify on any of the three counts.

I just feel sorry for all the poor slobs that bullied by these people into paying 8.25% of their total sales after selling some of their most precious personal items because they happen to really need the money for something and cant get it any other way.

I am certain though that this SIP and her immediate supervisor knew they where wrong in what they where doing and did it anyway. I am also certain they will continue to extort funds from residence of our fair state all the while knowing they are acting in direct opposition to the current rulings on the issue.

Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:04:25 AM EDT
A copy of the ruling TPR 02-3 ARIZONA TRANSACTION PRIVILEGE TAX RULING has been placed in my file. THISISME
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You have a file. [:O]
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