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Posted: 8/13/2007 4:27:20 PM EDT
OK as a few of you know I resigned from my LEO job a few weeks ago to attend gunsmithing school(I START TOMORROW YAY!)

well I had a partner on the force that quit two years ago to attend law school....

we were talking today and came up with an observation....

the smarter a man is or more intelligent a man is the less likely he is to be one of those cops that break the law or mess with the public in a judge dread kind of way....


higher standards for LEO + higher pay = happier communities????

I mean in really rich neighborhoods or communities where it is more competitive to get hired and the LEO's are higher paid I see less complaints in the news etc....

what say you arfcom.....
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 4:57:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gaspain:
smarter people in all job categories is a good thing.


Couldn't a said it better.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 4:58:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HIPPO:

Originally Posted By BURN:
OK as a few of you know I resigned from my LEO job a few weeks ago to attend gunsmithing school(I START TOMORROW YAY!)

well I had a partner on the force that quit two years ago to attend law school....

we were talking today and came up with an observation....

the smarter a man is or more intelligent a man is the less likely he is to be one of those cops that break the law or mess with the public in a judge dread kind of way....


higher standards for LEO + higher pay = happier communities????

I mean in really rich neighborhoods or communities where it is more competitive to get hired and the LEO's are higher paid I see less complaints in the news etc....

what say you arfcom.....


You might want to re-check your thread title for an unneeded apostrophe.


hey I never claimed to be a smart cop and LEO's "looks" better than LEOs
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 4:59:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HIPPO:

Originally Posted By Etho:
No offense to the LEO's here at all, but reading some reports that I have read a lot of them are dumbasses.

Now I would never expect classical literature type writing in a police report. The lack of basic spelling, sentence structure, math and just general knowledge type stuff is amazing.


Yet another instance of an unneeded apostrophe.


Hey I never said I was an English major either ....but if my dumb ass who nearly failed English class can find problems with the grammar in a report then there is a serious problem.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:00:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoStockBikes:

Originally Posted By jnojr:

Originally Posted By gaspain:
smarter people in all job categories is a good thing.


Less stupid people would be a good thing. We should be trying to shift the bell curve to the right.


If it makes you feel any better, it actually does consistently shift to the right over time. It more likely has to do with more and wider exposure to the skills measured in the tests themselves rather than an actual increase in intelligence, since obviously our grandparents weren't all retarded.


That's the Flynn Effect and it seems to have stopped in the last ten years.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:00:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2007 5:02:28 PM EDT by BURN]

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By Etho:
No offense to the LEO's here at all, but reading some reports that I have read a lot of them are dumbasses.

Now I would never expect classical literature type writing in a police report. The lack of basic spelling, sentence structure, math and just general knowledge type stuff is amazing.


Not a problem confined to the LE field.
Basic grammar skills have not been covered in public schools for some time now.


What the Doc308 says is very right....I didn't learn any grammar till after I got out of high school and I am still learning it....
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:02:19 PM EDT
In the 1930s during the Depression, the NYPD used IQ tests to pull smart people out of the large pool of the unemployed. The end result was 40 years of very good policing only ended by liberal court orders in the late 1960s. The average IQ of the pool of recruits was 120+. It does make a difference. The NYPD trained a lot of future police chiefs from that pool of people.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:05:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By trwoprod:
In the 1930s during the Depression, the NYPD used IQ tests to pull smart people out of the large pool of the unemployed. The end result was 40 years of very good policing only ended by liberal court orders in the late 1960s. The average IQ of the pool of recruits was 120+. It does make a difference. The NYPD trained a lot of future police chiefs from that pool of people.


can you find any links to more information on this?
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:05:29 PM EDT

the smarter a man is or more intelligent a man is the less likely he is to be one of those cops that break the law or mess with the public in a judge dread kind of way


Maybe, maybe not. The more intelligent someone is the more intelligent they can scheme up ways to break the law and not get caught.

I would think they wouldn't break street level type laws: billy clubbing someone, shoplifting, cheating on time cards, but more on the level of computer hacking, knowing how their local CSI works and planting evidence - along those lines, But if they were really intelligent, they know sooner or later almost everyone gets caught

So it depends on the type of laws you'd think they would break.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:08:15 PM EDT
Were I live we are supposedly in the middle of a meth crises. So what do the cops do?
Seat belt patrol. Click it or ticket. They are REALY concerned about creating revenue,oops I mean public safety.

I would be happy to see cops get paid more,hell it would be great if they hired some more, but not if they are going to ignore real crimes while in the mean time help to validate the almighty nanny state. I think that if they have the resources to crack down on traffic violations that don't hurt anyone,while they say we can't help you with theft and vandalism, maybe some of them need to be laid off untill priorities get fixed.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:09:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Etho:

Originally Posted By HIPPO:

Originally Posted By Etho:
No offense to the LEO's here at all, but reading some reports that I have read a lot of them are dumbasses.

Now I would never expect classical literature type writing in a police report. The lack of basic spelling, sentence structure, math and just general knowledge type stuff is amazing.


Yet another instance of an unneeded apostrophe.


Hey I never said I was an English major either ....but if my dumb ass who nearly failed English class can find problems with the grammar in a report then there is a serious problem.


I agree that there are some cops with poor grammar skills, but a lot of the reports are written on the fly, inside of police cars, between calls. Where I work, guys are lucky to complete reports the same day the calls were taken. When this happens, reports tend to stack up and officers rush. Mistakes can and do happen.

Not an excuse, but it is reality. I've read reports from doctors as well that were lacking in proper grammar and sentence structure. It's not just cops.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:23:00 PM EDT
I guess that explains the rampant corruption throughout the NYPD from the beat cop all the way up to Captains and sometimes above that pay grade in the 60's and 70's eh?
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:35:11 PM EDT
Definately

As does the hiring process. The big city fire departments in the area get literally hundreds of aplicants for each position, they have thier choice of the best and the brightest. However the testing process often puts no basis on things like previous experience, education, certifications, ect. You usually get 5 extra points for prior military, and well... lets just say affirmitive action can be a deciding factor in who gets hired. As you can imagine, usually some of the best applicants get overlooked for someone who got lucky and scored well on a test(or had the right ethnic backround or gender)
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:36:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BURN:
OK as a few of you know I resigned from my LEO job a few weeks ago to attend gunsmithing school(I START TOMORROW YAY!)

well I had a partner on the force that quit two years ago to attend law school....

we were talking today and came up with an observation....

the smarter a man is or more intelligent a man is the less likely he is to be one of those cops that break the law or mess with the public in a judge dread kind of way....


higher standards for LEO + higher pay = happier communities????

I mean in really rich neighborhoods or communities where it is more competitive to get hired and the LEO's are higher paid I see less complaints in the news etc...

what say you arfcom.....



Wrong! They are worse in ways.

Anyways, while yes, the "good" cops are the smart ones. I still think character & work ethics make the grade in this profession. I went through the academy with some very bright future cops,...but damn. Some of them were just friggin hopeless.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:37:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thecleaner:

Originally Posted By BURN:
OK as a few of you know I resigned from my LEO job a few weeks ago to attend gunsmithing school(I START TOMORROW YAY!)

well I had a partner on the force that quit two years ago to attend law school....

we were talking today and came up with an observation....

the smarter a man is or more intelligent a man is the less likely he is to be one of those cops that break the law or mess with the public in a judge dread kind of way....


higher standards for LEO + higher pay = happier communities????

I mean in really rich neighborhoods or communities where it is more competitive to get hired and the LEO's are higher paid I see less complaints in the news etc...

what say you arfcom.....



Wrong! They are worse in ways.

Anyways, while yes, the "good" cops are the smart ones. I still think character & work ethics make the grade in this profession. I went through the academy with some very bright future cops,...but damn. Some of them were just friggin hopeless.


well I am generalizing.....I have seen lots of good cops and lots of oh my god how did this guy get hired
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:44:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2007 5:47:09 PM EDT by warped]
Well that, and some communities being lax on psych screenings.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:46:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By warped:
Well tha,t and some communities being lax on psych screenings.


some of the psych screenings are bull shit....a Psychiatrist I talked to for my evaluation to get on to a swat team almost didn't sign off on my paperwork because he was concerned that I listed target shooting as a hobby
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:47:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lazarae:
Were I live we are supposedly in the middle of a meth crises. So what do the cops do?
Seat belt patrol. Click it or ticket. They are REALY concerned about creating revenue,oops I mean public safety.

I would be happy to see cops get paid more,hell it would be great if they hired some more, but not if they are going to ignore real crimes while in the mean time help to validate the almighty nanny state. I think that if they have the resources to crack down on traffic violations that don't hurt anyone,while they say we can't help you with theft and vandalism, maybe some of them need to be laid off untill priorities get fixed.


Perhaps you should refrain from making sweeping generalizations. I could give two shits if you decide not to wear your seatbelt, crash and end up splattered all over the road. But it's a law, nonetheless, and enforcing it has nothing to do with generating revenue. I don't see any of the profit, so why do I care?

Making it sound that cops sit on a side street and say to themselves, "I am going to go get that guy without a seatbelt instead of busting the meth lab across the street", isn't how it works. But I digress.

Back to the original topic, yes, education helps. Poor report writing, etc. are not automatically related to education level. A few people (that are no longer officers) in my academy class had bachelors and/or masters degrees, yet, their reports sucked ass. Writing a police report has to be worded and structured differantly than most things. Chalk that up to certain statements the courts want to see, etc.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:47:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2007 5:49:38 PM EDT by warped]

Originally Posted By BURN:

Originally Posted By warped:
Well tha,t and some communities being lax on psych screenings.


some of the psych screenings are bull shit....a Psychiatrist I talked to for my evaluation to get on to a swat team almost didn't sign off on my paperwork because he was concerned that I listed target shooting as a hobby


See what I mean?

They were more concered about stupid shit, instead of ascertaining whether of not you were a mental case.

I knew a guy who did not get selected for SWAT, and yet he seemed pretty good at his other job.

He was a SEAL.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:48:23 PM EDT
Even though it has been civil so far.

IBTL
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 6:09:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BURN:

Originally Posted By trwoprod:
In the 1930s during the Depression, the NYPD used IQ tests to pull smart people out of the large pool of the unemployed. The end result was 40 years of very good policing only ended by liberal court orders in the late 1960s. The average IQ of the pool of recruits was 120+. It does make a difference. The NYPD trained a lot of future police chiefs from that pool of people.


can you find any links to more information on this?


I will go looking. It talked about the contributions of the NYPD folks to the Olympic team and how they were referred to as "Irish whales" because so many were so damned big. Let me poke around some.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 6:12:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By conrad505:
I guess that explains the rampant corruption throughout the NYPD from the beat cop all the way up to Captains and sometimes above that pay grade in the 60's and 70's eh?


1. Were these the people from the 1930s who were picked from the top?
2. Was that worse or better than before? I have been told that it was much better.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 6:21:02 PM EDT
It’s not intelligence exactly although a police officer should have a reasonably high IQ. It’s more of an emotional quotient thing. The officer needs to me free from criminal impulses and mentally stable. And, if you want to hire people like that you are going to have to pay them good money.

This is really true of any industry. Pay your workers well and expect good performance. If you pay crap wages you get crap workers. Then it’s really management’s fault when half the workforce calls in sick on Monday.

Considering how dangerous to our freedom an out of control police force could be, I don’t think it pays to skimp on officer pay.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 6:25:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BURN:



higher standards for LEO + higher pay = happier communities????



+1

Yes. This would mean less officers thou, and people would have to be more self reliant, which is always a good thing.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 6:26:35 PM EDT
Hey Shogun187,
I have been forced out of my car at gunpoint because I told a cop I had my CWP and told him I was armed. I was pulled over for a having a headlight out. I thought there might be a chance that he would see my pistol when I reached for my wallet and I didn't want to spook him. He chose to believe that my permit wasn't valid because it was issued in another county,even though its a state of Oregon permit. I spent the next 20 minutes on a sheet of ice while he tried to pull his head from his rectum. After he ran my DL and registration one of his buddies radioed in and told him I was good to go, and my CWP was valid too.He wasn't done yet though,he ran a check on my Glock to make sure I hadn't stolen it. This is after everything else came back kosher.The cop said he had to do it because the good guys want to make it home at night. I have had two incedents where I had property stolen less than 500 yards from the police station, Iwas told that they have a pretty good idea who did it but that they couldn't realy help. Do you have any idea how frustraiting it is to be treated like this and then see a huge PR campaign (with billboards and tv/radio spots) about how cops are crackin down on seatbelt violators. Oh and I get to see an unmarked car spend all day patroling a mall for seatbelt bandits. I have to test drive cars through that area and have always worn my seatbelt,and watch him pull two or three suburbanites over every hour for a victim less violation. Its pure bullshit.

Link Posted: 8/13/2007 6:27:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By warped:

Originally Posted By BURN:

Originally Posted By warped:
Well tha,t and some communities being lax on psych screenings.


some of the psych screenings are bull shit....a Psychiatrist I talked to for my evaluation to get on to a swat team almost didn't sign off on my paperwork because he was concerned that I listed target shooting as a hobby


See what I mean?

They were more concered about stupid shit, instead of ascertaining whether of not you were a mental case.

I knew a guy who did not get selected for SWAT, and yet he seemed pretty good at his other job.

He was a SEAL.


Former SF doesn't always equate well to LE SWAT. Although the tactics and ideas are the same the ROE is way different. Our dept just removed a new SWAT Officer from their team who is a former Army SF soldier. He made it through the psych w/o any problems and performed perfectly on the physical test. Everyone thought that he was going to be a SWAT superstar until he got on the team and started going on and on about WHEN he was going to get his first kill on an entry. During training using simuntion he would continually take questionable shots and endanger people around him. Even after counseling he continued. He was removed from SWAT and may lose his job if the problems aren't corrected FAST.
Link Posted: 8/14/2007 6:49:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TxLawDog:
Former SF doesn't always equate well to LE SWAT. Although the tactics and ideas are the same the ROE is way different. Our dept just removed a new SWAT Officer from their team who is a former Army SF soldier. He made it through the psych w/o any problems and performed perfectly on the physical test. Everyone thought that he was going to be a SWAT superstar until he got on the team and started going on and on about WHEN he was going to get his first kill on an entry. During training using simuntion he would continually take questionable shots and endanger people around him. Even after counseling he continued. He was removed from SWAT and may lose his job if the problems aren't corrected FAST.


I've always wondered how a former HSLD type would work out in LE, especially SWAT.
SWAT is, if you will forego the negative conntations, the military arm of the PD.
The skillset is very much the same for a SWAT Officer as it would be for a HSLD type in the .mil
The mindset is the big difference between the two, and I can imagine it would be hard to break out of that mold if you had been trained in SF and went to SWAT, or vice versa.
Link Posted: 8/14/2007 6:35:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By brian4wd:
+1

You get what you pay for. And that may or may not reflect the make up of the 'general population'.


Brian


And there's the problem.

Years ago, only the "best and brightest" made the cut. We took an extrance exam and the highest scores were hired first.

But affirmative action and other laws required the make-up of the police departmenst to "reflect the make-up of the city's racial population".

The "highest" scores were no longer the ones hired.

Things went down from there.

And, before anyone accuses me of racial bigotry, I firmly believe that if the higest scores were made by black ( or any other color) candidates, then they should be hired. Pay good wages and get the best avaialble. Forget racial quotas.



There's that reality thing again.
Link Posted: 8/14/2007 10:05:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lazarae:
Were I live we are supposedly in the middle of a meth crises. So what do the cops do?
Seat belt patrol. Click it or ticket. They are REALY concerned about creating revenue,oops I mean public safety.

I would be happy to see cops get paid more,hell it would be great if they hired some more, but not if they are going to ignore real crimes while in the mean time help to validate the almighty nanny state. I think that if they have the resources to crack down on traffic violations that don't hurt anyone,while they say we can't help you with theft and vandalism, maybe some of them need to be laid off untill priorities get fixed.


I hate having an above average IQ- stuff like this begins to make sense.
Link Posted: 8/14/2007 11:30:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lazarae:
Were I live we are supposedly in the middle of a meth crises. So what do the cops do?
Seat belt patrol. Click it or ticket. They are REALY concerned about creating revenue,oops I mean public safety.

I would be happy to see cops get paid more,hell it would be great if they hired some more, but not if they are going to ignore real crimes while in the mean time help to validate the almighty nanny state. I think that if they have the resources to crack down on traffic violations that don't hurt anyone,while they say we can't help you with theft and vandalism, maybe some of them need to be laid off untill priorities get fixed.


Funny thing about people who are out there doing "Real Crime". They tend to drive back and forth from the crime scene. That's how they get that meth from one place to another, or that stolen TV or gun to market, or maybe be moving an abducted child from one location to another.
Unfortunately, we just can’t be everywhere. So the law of averages dictates that most crimes will occur in places where we are not. We have a better chance of finding those criminals as they move about on the roads.
Since my LE crystal ball that tells me who are criminals, and who aren't isn't admissible in court, I have to rely on other means of detection. We call it probable cause. With it, I have a reason to stop vehicles, and have a look at who, and what, is moving on our public roadways.
Enforcing those "Traffic violations that don't hurt anyone" is a valuable tool. I couldn't care less about the revenue generated from traffic fines.
Countless felony arrests are made from simple "No Seatbelt", or other "Traffic violations that don't hurt anyone" traffic stops.
The moral of this story is that sometimes getting stopped for "Traffic violations that don't hurt anyone" isn't really about writing tickets. We're looking for meth dealers, and thieves, murderers, rapists, Insert criminal act here_______, that are out driving around on the public streets.
If you prefer not to have the Police in your life, then stay off our radar.
Literally, and figuratively...
And FWIT, I give LOTS more warnings than citations. And I've taken lots of bad guys (And a few bad girls) off the streets from what started as a simple traffic stop.
Some of them weren't wearing seatbelts...
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 4:42:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2007 4:44:36 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
I've always wondered how a former HSLD type would work out in LE, especially SWAT.
SWAT is, if you will forego the negative conntations, the military arm of the PD.
The skillset is very much the same for a SWAT Officer as it would be for a HSLD type in the .mil
The mindset is the big difference between the two, and I can imagine it would be hard to break out of that mold if you had been trained in SF and went to SWAT, or vice versa.


They usually work out splendidly.

People make it into SF outfits because they are tougher, smarter, and more adaptable than other folks are. You don't make it to DEVGRU by being a dummy.

The mentioned exception here sounds like someone the department put on SWAT too soon...before he had the opportunity to spend enough time as a police officer to learn the ropes and the environment he is in. I'm willing to bet he had more issues than just questionable decisions in training and macho talk...far more important issues like inability to take instruction and general lack of maturity that would cause his booting from the team. If you make mistakes in training that's not a big deal...if you make mistakes and don't take instruction to correct them, that's a HUGE deal.

Some people don't realize that when you show up on a SWAT team you are the newbie and have to learn how the team works and what your job is...even if you were a super-ninja in the .mil.

Typically that isn't a problem.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 4:46:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TGFB:

Originally Posted By Lazarae:
Were I live we are supposedly in the middle of a meth crises. So what do the cops do?
Seat belt patrol. Click it or ticket. They are REALY concerned about creating revenue,oops I mean public safety.

I would be happy to see cops get paid more,hell it would be great if they hired some more, but not if they are going to ignore real crimes while in the mean time help to validate the almighty nanny state. I think that if they have the resources to crack down on traffic violations that don't hurt anyone,while they say we can't help you with theft and vandalism, maybe some of them need to be laid off untill priorities get fixed.


I hate having an above average IQ- stuff like this begins to make sense.


If "stuff like this" makes sense to you then you don't have an "above average IQ".
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 5:02:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
If "stuff like this" makes sense to you then you don't have an "above average IQ".


I don't have a good source of statistics handy, but I can say without fear of contradiction that a large percentage of arrests for major crimes (robbery, burglary, even homicide) happen as a result of simple traffic stops.

People would do well to remember that Tim McVeigh was caught by an alert officer who nailed him on (I believe) an equipment violation.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 11:34:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tin_Star:

Originally Posted By Lazarae:
Were I live we are supposedly in the middle of a meth crises. So what do the cops do?
Seat belt patrol. Click it or ticket. They are REALY concerned about creating revenue,oops I mean public safety.

I would be happy to see cops get paid more,hell it would be great if they hired some more, but not if they are going to ignore real crimes while in the mean time help to validate the almighty nanny state. I think that if they have the resources to crack down on traffic violations that don't hurt anyone,while they say we can't help you with theft and vandalism, maybe some of them need to be laid off untill priorities get fixed.


Funny thing about people who are out there doing "Real Crime". They tend to drive back and forth from the crime scene. That's how they get that meth from one place to another, or that stolen TV or gun to market, or maybe be moving an abducted child from one location to another.
Unfortunately, we just can’t be everywhere. So the law of averages dictates that most crimes will occur in places where we are not. We have a better chance of finding those criminals as they move about on the roads.
Since my LE crystal ball that tells me who are criminals, and who aren't isn't admissible in court, I have to rely on other means of detection. We call it probable cause. With it, I have a reason to stop vehicles, and have a look at who, and what, is moving on our public roadways.
Enforcing those "Traffic violations that don't hurt anyone" is a valuable tool. I couldn't care less about the revenue generated from traffic fines.
Countless felony arrests are made from simple "No Seatbelt", or other "Traffic violations that don't hurt anyone" traffic stops.
The moral of this story is that sometimes getting stopped for "Traffic violations that don't hurt anyone" isn't really about writing tickets. We're looking for meth dealers, and thieves, murderers, rapists, Insert criminal act here_______, that are out driving around on the public streets.
If you prefer not to have the Police in your life, then stay off our radar.
Literally, and figuratively...
And FWIT, I give LOTS more warnings than citations. And I've taken lots of bad guys (And a few bad girls) off the streets from what started as a simple traffic stop.
Some of them weren't wearing seatbelts...


You're not very nice. Stop bursting his bubble..... Parolee's hate it when they get sent back to prison after you find a bag of meth in their vehicle - all as the result of going straight from a right turn only lane at 3AM....

Brian
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 12:00:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:
A few years ago a guy sued to get a job as a police officer. He was turned down for being too intelligent.
From what I read, they felt that a person who is above average or high intellegence would get bored and resign.
I know some good officers that are dumb, and a few sharp officers that are not so great because they feeel superior to everyone else.


Well thats understandable. Isn't a lower level of intelligence a requirement for the position anyway?

Link Posted: 8/15/2007 12:35:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

And, before anyone accuses me of racial bigotry, I firmly believe that if the higest scores were made by black ( or any other color) candidates, then they should be hired. Pay good wages and get the best avaialble. Forget racial quotas.



Givng preference to any group is racist to begin with.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 12:51:55 PM EDT
no
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