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Posted: 8/19/2005 1:12:57 PM EDT
This is what the guys working at DFW Gun Range told me 8/13/05 when I tried to rent an MP5 from them.

"Our new ATF agent believes renting a machine gun is the same as selling a machine gun, and without the proper paperwork and a $200 transfer tax, it is illegal."

Needless to say I didn't get to shoot an full auto.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:14:22 PM EDT
WTF?
What an asswipe.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:14:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 1:16:19 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By angry_walkin_dude:
This is what the guys working at DFW Gun Range told me 8/13/05 when I tried to rent an MP5 from them.

"Our new ATF agent believes renting a machine gun is the same as selling a machine gun, and without the proper paperwork and a $200 transfer tax, it is illegal."

Needless to say I didn't get to shoot an full auto.




They are full of crap unless they changed the law. We rented FAs all day long.

Maddi AK
Ingrahm m10 .45
9mm POS sten
H&K 33
M16
M1a1 Tompson .45 made by savage
MP5k


Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:16:31 PM EDT
ok.

give em away for 1 hr with range time purchase
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:18:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
ok.

give em away for 1 hr with range time purchase




I think you'd still have to "transfer" with all the nessessary paperwork. I actually think that'd be more of a legal problem....but that's just a guess.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:18:58 PM EDT
Isn't there some little quirk in the law that makes it illeagal for a non-licensed person or non-LEO to
handle a post sample FA firearm?
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:20:13 PM EDT
tagged.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:20:41 PM EDT
The ATF makes up law all the time. I dont know how they get away with it.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:20:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
ok.

give em away for 1 hr with range time purchase



That's kinda what I suggested. Free machine gun use with each $30 target.

Anybody know who runs the ATF here in Dallas?
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:25:03 PM EDT
I doubt it's true. I have a full auto range near me and they were renting MG's out very recently.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:31:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lu380:
I doubt it's true. I have a full auto range near me and they were renting MG's out very recently.



Give them a call if you don't believe it. (214)630-4866 www.dfwgun.com
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:34:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 1:35:36 PM EDT by ZitiForBreakfast]
I never rent anything FA from our local shops around here.

"NO DOUBLE TAPPING ALLOWED"

"SHOOTER MUST WAIT THREE SECONDS BEFORE FIRING THE NEXT ROUND"

"PLESE RENT ONE OF OUR FULLY AUTOMATIC SUB MACHINE GUNS"

ya right.

I haven't been back since.

MI guys know where this place is...
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:35:13 PM EDT
Range down the street rents them.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:36:54 PM EDT
If true a bunch of guys lwho are screwed.

Certain gunshops have been SELLING post sample machine guns to individuals. The stipulation is that they need to be maintained on the premise of the gun shop/range. Obviously they are never actually transferred to the individuals but are simply "rentals" that morons paid dealer price + 50% for.

So basically you can shoot a MP5 anytime you want for only $2,000 or so.

The sad part is plenty of guys lining up to do just that. No shortage of morons with brand new HKG36s and UMP45s that for "regulation" reasons must be stored at the gun range.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:38:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:
I never rent anything FA from our local shops around here.

"NO DOUBLE TAPPING ALLOWED"

"SHOOTER MUST WAIT THREE SECONDS BEFORE FIRING THE NEXT ROUND"

"PLESE RENT ONE OF OUR FULLY AUTOMATIC SUB MACHINE GUNS"

ya right.

I haven't been back since.

MI guys know where this place is...



We were the same way. Well kind of. No rapid fire, double tapping was allowed. And when renting the FA, a RO stood behind you and made sure you were safe. You can dump a whole mag in one burst if you were capable.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:38:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LoginName:
Isn't there some little quirk in the law that makes it illeagal for a non-licensed person or non-LEO to
handle a post sample FA firearm?



That is how it was written. Wouldn't be hard for ATF to enforce it that way. They've gotten away with crazier shit.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:42:09 PM EDT
Tagged - hell I rent fullautos all the time at the local range - I hope this ATF agent has his head up his ass and it is soon disconnected by his superiors. What a fuckwad.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:43:10 PM EDT
It seems that someone simply needs to find the balls to stand up to the LOCAL agent that the range is being intimidated by and tell him where he can shove his OPINION on the law. Since he is an agent, not a judge, he doesn't get to make judgements on the meaning of the laws.

Oh and whoever stands up to him will also have to have the Wallet to back up their balls.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:46:25 PM EDT
Tag
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:50:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 1:51:44 PM EDT by distributor_of_pain]
I called them to rent an MP5 as well, and they told me something like "the ATF doesn't want them to rent them anymore, so they can only rent an UZI"

It is perfectly legal to let others shoot your FA weapon as long as you are with them.

This is a case of the ATF bullying the DFW range. The DFW range is handing over their milk money!

ETA: this was several months ago
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:01:46 PM EDT
It doesn't matter what the f$%k your local POS ATF agent THINKS. The Law is the law. His job is to enforce the it, not interpret it.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:05:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kindstranger:
It doesn't matter what the f$%k your local POS ATF agent THINKS. The Law is the law. His job is to enforce the it, not interpret it.



True. But gun ranges aren't exactly rich and F-Troop knows this.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:10:53 PM EDT
We use a cable and a small lock to attach the gun to the booth . That way there's no appearance of a transfer . That's how we worked it out with our inspector when we first opened up, she wasn't to sure about the whole rental thing .
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:11:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By angry_walkin_dude:
This is what the guys working at DFW Gun Range told me 8/13/05 when I tried to rent an MP5 from them.

"Our new ATF agent believes renting a machine gun is the same as selling a machine gun, and without the proper paperwork and a $200 transfer tax, it is illegal."

Needless to say I didn't get to shoot an full auto.




Tell them, "No problem. I asked for a sub-machine gun."
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:13:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LoginName:
Isn't there some little quirk in the law that makes it illeagal for a non-licensed person or non-LEO to
handle a post sample FA firearm?




Not AFAIK. Any fool can "handle" anything, that doesn't make him/her the owner.

Seems like the range owner is being told bullshit as Knob Creek continues to rent them twice a year.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:18:59 PM EDT
damn ive been there and rented before..


nice place actually ..


but why would they only be allowed to rent out the UZI's .. that is what doesnt sound right..

hell someone get on the horn to the local ATF branch and ask..

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:27:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cluster:
damn ive been there and rented before..


nice place actually ..


but why would they only be allowed to rent out the UZI's .. that is what doesnt sound right..

hell someone get on the horn to the local ATF branch and ask..




Don't ask me. The guy I spoke with was kinda short about it all. Sounded like it pissed him off just admitting that to me.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:29:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By angry_walkin_dude:
This is what the guys working at DFW Gun Range told me 8/13/05 when I tried to rent an MP5 from them.

"Our new ATF agent believes renting a machine gun is the same as selling a machine gun, and without the proper paperwork and a $200 transfer tax, it is illegal."

Needless to say I didn't get to shoot an full auto.


Needless to say, you should be hammering the shit out of the local and national BATF&E offices for a "clarification" and/or FIRING of the gun-hating fuckhead ATF agent.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:32:38 PM EDT
THIS is the work the NRA should be FULLY ENGAGED in - Dismantling / unfucking the BATF&E - spotlighting every abuse, every made-up enforcement action, EVERY harassment of law-abiding gun owners. This Agency needs a fucking PURGE.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:53:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rayra:
THIS is the work the NRA should be FULLY ENGAGED in - Dismantling / unfucking the BATF&E - spotlighting every abuse, every made-up enforcement action, EVERY harassment of law-abiding gun owners. This Agency needs a fucking PURGE.



I think you mean the GOA - I'm an NRA member but the NRA doesnt give a flying fuck about NFA laws or the rights of Class III owners........
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:53:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:
I never rent anything FA from our local shops around here.

"NO DOUBLE TAPPING ALLOWED"

"SHOOTER MUST WAIT THREE SECONDS BEFORE FIRING THE NEXT ROUND"

"PLESE RENT ONE OF OUR FULLY AUTOMATIC SUB MACHINE GUNS"

ya right.

I haven't been back since.

MI guys know where this place is...



Yeah, I grew up in MI and I know exactly which place you are talking about. Bunch of bungholes. Arrogant, condescending, etc.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:57:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 5:59:47 PM EDT by Kharn]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
If true a bunch of guys lwho are screwed.

Certain gunshops have been SELLING post sample machine guns to individuals. The stipulation is that they need to be maintained on the premise of the gun shop/range. Obviously they are never actually transferred to the individuals but are simply "rentals" that morons paid dealer price + 50% for.

So basically you can shoot a MP5 anytime you want for only $2,000 or so.

The sad part is plenty of guys lining up to do just that. No shortage of morons with brand new HKG36s and UMP45s that for "regulation" reasons must be stored at the gun range.

Ranges around DC do that for handguns (and I think rifles too, not sure), they'll allow DC residents to purchase a handgun as their personal rental weapon, it never leaves the range and if they ever move outside of DC, the shop will transfer the weapon to the buyer free of charge.

Hell, I'd consider "buying" an M16 from the dealer if it was at-cost for a post-sample, you never know, the law may change and I could take it home.

Kharn
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:14:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
If true a bunch of guys lwho are screwed.

Certain gunshops have been SELLING post sample machine guns to individuals. The stipulation is that they need to be maintained on the premise of the gun shop/range. Obviously they are never actually transferred to the individuals but are simply "rentals" that morons paid dealer price + 50% for.

So basically you can shoot a MP5 anytime you want for only $2,000 or so.

The sad part is plenty of guys lining up to do just that. No shortage of morons with brand new HKG36s and UMP45s that for "regulation" reasons must be stored at the gun range.




Thats pretty cool...

Steyr not everyone has guns/money like you do...

If it were a stable business, I'd probably look into something like that...
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:22:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
If true a bunch of guys lwho are screwed.

Certain gunshops have been SELLING post sample machine guns to individuals. The stipulation is that they need to be maintained on the premise of the gun shop/range. Obviously they are never actually transferred to the individuals but are simply "rentals" that morons paid dealer price + 50% for.

So basically you can shoot a MP5 anytime you want for only $2,000 or so.

The sad part is plenty of guys lining up to do just that. No shortage of morons with brand new HKG36s and UMP45s that for "regulation" reasons must be stored at the gun range.




Thats pretty cool...

Steyr not everyone has guns/money like you do...

If it were a stable business, I'd probably look into something like that...



You'd pay $2,000 for a gun that will NEVER legally be yours?
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:23:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kharn:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
If true a bunch of guys lwho are screwed.

Certain gunshops have been SELLING post sample machine guns to individuals. The stipulation is that they need to be maintained on the premise of the gun shop/range. Obviously they are never actually transferred to the individuals but are simply "rentals" that morons paid dealer price + 50% for.

So basically you can shoot a MP5 anytime you want for only $2,000 or so.

The sad part is plenty of guys lining up to do just that. No shortage of morons with brand new HKG36s and UMP45s that for "regulation" reasons must be stored at the gun range.

Ranges around DC do that for handguns (and I think rifles too, not sure), they'll allow DC residents to purchase a handgun as their personal rental weapon, it never leaves the range and if they ever move outside of DC, the shop will transfer the weapon to the buyer free of charge.

Hell, I'd consider "buying" an M16 from the dealer if it was at-cost for a post-sample, you never know, the law may change and I could take it home.

Kharn




OH CRAP. That is the funniest thing I've read all day long.

Thanks...
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:33:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
ok.

give em away for 1 hr with range time purchase



No, that might still require the transfer tax.

What about letting potential customers test-shoot a machine gun, but requiring them to purchase the ammo to do so?

I mean, sure, I've been in shooting an MP5 dozens of times, I just can't make up my darn mind whether I want to buy it or not. Maybe next time...
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:33:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By angry_walkin_dude:

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
ok.

give em away for 1 hr with range time purchase



That's kinda what I suggested. Free machine gun use with each $30 target.



Free machine guns? Giving 'em away?? What ice cream truck is doing this??
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:36:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
If true a bunch of guys lwho are screwed.

Certain gunshops have been SELLING post sample machine guns to individuals. The stipulation is that they need to be maintained on the premise of the gun shop/range. Obviously they are never actually transferred to the individuals but are simply "rentals" that morons paid dealer price + 50% for.

So basically you can shoot a MP5 anytime you want for only $2,000 or so.

The sad part is plenty of guys lining up to do just that. No shortage of morons with brand new HKG36s and UMP45s that for "regulation" reasons must be stored at the gun range.




Thats pretty cool...

Steyr not everyone has guns/money like you do...

If it were a stable business, I'd probably look into something like that...



You'd pay $2,000 for a gun that will NEVER legally be yours?



I can understand your point Steyr, however, if it generates much more in income then I can see where it would make sense.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:40:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By angry_walkin_dude:
This is what the guys working at DFW Gun Range told me 8/13/05 when I tried to rent an MP5 from them.

"Our new ATF agent believes renting a machine gun is the same as selling a machine gun, and without the proper paperwork and a $200 transfer tax, it is illegal."

Needless to say I didn't get to shoot an full auto.





You can rent an MG in the DFW area?


WHERE WHERE WHERE WHERE?
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:41:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 6:42:50 PM EDT by LoginName]

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:

Free machine guns? Giving 'em away?? What ice cream truck is doing this??



Maybe not free, but since you asked.





Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:53:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 6:55:59 PM EDT by soowah]

Originally Posted By fadedsun:
<snip>


You can rent an MG in the DFW area?


WHERE WHERE WHERE WHERE?



DFW gun range, near downtown, or at one time you could. www.DFWGUN.com

ETA: actual link linky
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:55:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 6:58:49 PM EDT by Doctor_Chicago]

Originally Posted By RedJacket:
We use a cable and a small lock to attach the gun to the booth . That way there's no appearance of a transfer . That's how we worked it out with our inspector when we first opened up, she wasn't to sure about the whole rental thing .



I remember twenty years ago in Fort Lauderdale, Florida the gun shop use to lock them with a cable in place.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 6:55:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 6:56:20 PM EDT by Hydguy]

Originally Posted By Kharn:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
If true a bunch of guys lwho are screwed.

Certain gunshops have been SELLING post sample machine guns to individuals. The stipulation is that they need to be maintained on the premise of the gun shop/range. Obviously they are never actually transferred to the individuals but are simply "rentals" that morons paid dealer price + 50% for.

So basically you can shoot a MP5 anytime you want for only $2,000 or so.

The sad part is plenty of guys lining up to do just that. No shortage of morons with brand new HKG36s and UMP45s that for "regulation" reasons must be stored at the gun range.

Ranges around DC do that for handguns (and I think rifles too, not sure), they'll allow DC residents to purchase a handgun as their personal rental weapon, it never leaves the range and if they ever move outside of DC, the shop will transfer the weapon to the buyer free of charge.

Hell, I'd consider "buying" an M16 from the dealer if it was at-cost for a post-sample, you never know, the law may change and I could take it home.

Kharn



Well, I know that the store I worked at didn't do that, because that is a CLEAR VIOLATION of the law.
It sucks, but it's the law.

And as far as the local agents not knowing the law, but making their own opinions about it, well, you lose.

Our local agent told us that because VA is a 1 every 30 days state, with the exception of CCH holders, we had to do a mulitpurchase to the NTC if someone with a CCH bought more than 1 handgun from us in 30 days.
I told her she was wrong, as the NTC and the law only require it if you sell more than 1 handgun to the same person in a 5 day period.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 7:02:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 7:02:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 7:03:04 PM EDT by KA3B]

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
Free machine guns? Giving 'em away?? What ice cream truck is doing this??



At your local grocery store...





Link Posted: 8/19/2005 8:39:25 PM EDT
TAG
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 8:46:38 PM EDT

Personally, I've always been amazed that FFL holders who have "dealer-sample" MGs are allowed to rent them out to random people.

Don't they need a letter from a LEO department (or something similar) expressing interest in buying - to even acquire the dealer sample in the first place? If some LEO department considering a buy is the ONLY justification for buying the dealer sample, then it does seem odd that the FFL can then turn that dealer sample into a revenue generator by renting it out to random people that walk in off the street, for years and years.

I certainly don't have a problem with it, and I think it's awesom that FFL's CAN get away with doing it - I've just always been surprised that it was something that the ATF allowed in the first place.



Link Posted: 8/19/2005 8:52:39 PM EDT
Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me!!

If the Owner of the said machine gun is present it is legal for him to let someone to shoot it in his presence
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 9:22:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Personally, I've always been amazed that FFL holders who have "dealer-sample" MGs are allowed to rent them out to random people.

Don't they need a letter from a LEO department (or something similar) expressing interest in buying - to even acquire the dealer sample in the first place? If some LEO department considering a buy is the ONLY justification for buying the dealer sample, then it does seem odd that the FFL can then turn that dealer sample into a revenue generator by renting it out to random people that walk in off the street, for years and years.

I certainly don't have a problem with it, and I think it's awesom that FFL's CAN get away with doing it - I've just always been surprised that it was something that the ATF allowed in the first place.






In order to get them, you have to have a VERY FRIENDLY CLEO to do it.
THe shop I worked at went through the process to be a C3, had the license, but it was the cost of hte guns that kept us from doing it.
Pre '86 samples are still around and not as expensive as fully transferable guns, but seem to come up on a less frequent basis, because dealers can keep the pre '86 samples after they give up their SOT.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 9:24:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me!!

If the Owner of the said machine gun is present it is legal for him to let someone to shoot it in his presence



THe problem is that the post May '86 guns are not OWNED by anyone.
They are supposed to be for T&E testing, but if you know a CLEO who is willing, you can get just about anything signed off.

Hell, the guy that makes the mini Ma Duec and 1919's in .22 will make it a MG if you can get a letter for a post sample.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 9:39:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LoginName:
Isn't there some little quirk in the law that makes it illeagal for a non-licensed person or non-LEO to
handle a post sample FA firearm?



I hope that's false!
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