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Posted: 8/23/2005 4:03:24 AM EDT
Has some info I didn't see in the other articles posted on this. Worth a skim.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=\SpecialReports\archive\200508\SPE20050823a.html

ATF, Virginia Police Accused of 'Persecuting' Gun Shows
By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
August 23, 2005

(CNSNews.com) - The federal agency that regulates U.S. gun dealers stands accused, along with at least three Virginia law enforcement agencies, of trying to shut down legal gun shows through alleged intimidation of gun buyers and sellers. The law enforcement organizations also allegedly broke the law by sharing gun buyers' information with members of the public.

Annette Gelles, owner of gun show sponsor Showmasters.us, told Cybercast News Service that at least 30 agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) along with nearly 500 Virginia State Police, Henrico County Police and Richmond City Police officers were assigned to the ATF operation targeting her gun show on Aug. 13 and 14 at the Richmond International Raceway and Fairground Complex, outside Richmond, Va.

Gelles said four marked police cars were stationed at the main entrance to the raceway parking lot and more than 50 marked and unlabeled but obvious law enforcement vehicles were positioned just outside the public entrance to the building. The officers' presence, Gelles said, was intended to intimidate her customers.

"It's just a persecution thing. It's not really an attempt to solve crimes or stop them," Gelles said. "It's their way of trying to get rid of gun shows. That's the only way you can explain that large a police presence at the gun shows."

Gelles said ATF Resident Agent in Charge Brian Swann told her that the officers were part of a "Virginia State Police, ATF task force" and represented the "same amount of force that we've used in all the shows." The only difference in Gelles' case, Swann told her, was that the command post was established at the site of her gun show.

Virginia State Police (VSP) spokeswoman Corinne Geller told Cybercast News Service that her agency does participate in a task force with ATF and other Virginia law enforcement agencies. As part of the agreement that created the task force, Geller said, VSP agreed to refer questions regarding its operations to ATF.

Richmond Police spokeswoman Kirsten Nelson e-mailed her response to questions about the apparent sting operation.

"I have done some checking and as I said on the phone, the gun show was not in our jurisdiction," Nelson wrote, "so I have no record of our officers' participation."

Gelles said the participation of Richmond Police officers in the operation has already been documented, by Richmond Police officers.

"My own Richmond City Police officers that are there, that I hire for my security purposes, told me that they saw 14 (Richmond City Police officers) on Saturday in plain clothes," Gelles said.

Lt. Doug Perry with Henrico County Police acknowledged that his department's officers took part in the operation, but he would not say how many participated.

"We wouldn't normally release that anyway. That's part of our operational plan, the number of officers involved," Perry said. "We're not on overtime when we're doing that so it wouldn't be public information."

One gun show exhibitor said he counted 72 uniformed and plainclothes officers and agents in and around the vehicles near the entrance to the building. Gelles claimed that an unidentified officer tried to stop the exhibitor from counting the number of law enforcement personnel present, but walked away when the exhibitor refused.

While normal attendance at her two-day show is nearly 4,000, Gelles said she attracted approximately 2,300 the weekend of Aug. 13 and 14, costing Showmasters.us more than $7,000.

'There's no way that's legal'

"They did something else, which is highly illegal," Gelles charged. "They did something called a residency check."

Gelles explained that, when gun dealers took the paperwork to the Virginia State Police on-site office to complete the background checks on prospective buyers, ATF agents copied the names, home addresses and telephone numbers of the applicants.

Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, told Cybercast News Service that he has received numerous complaints alleging that as handgun buyers were waiting for their National Instant Check System (NICS) background investigations to be completed, ATF was secretly conducting the so-called "residency checks."

According to the complaints he received, Van Cleave said officers were dispatched to the homes of the prospective gun buyers to speak with family members, asking for example: "Gee, did you know your husband was going to a gun show today? Do you have his cell phone number? Did you know he was buying a gun?

"If people weren't home they, in some cases, went to neighbors" to ask the same questions, Van Cleave said.

"I'm not an attorney but, I'll tell you what, in my opinion that would be a violation of federal law," Van Cleave said. "To go off on a fishing trip with that information, much less sharing information like that with neighbors, there's no way that's legal."

Title 18 Section 923 of the U.S. Code concerns the licensing of gun dealers and appears to support Van Cleave's position. It contains the following restrictions on the information collected during the process of a gun purchase:

"(g)(3)(B) Except in the case of forms and contents thereof regarding a purchaser who is prohibited by [federal law] from receipt of a firearm, the department of State police or State law enforcement agency or local law enforcement agency of the local jurisdiction shall not disclose any such form or the contents thereof to any person or entity, and shall destroy each such form and any record of the contents thereof no more than 20 days from the date such form is received."

VSP's Geller could not comment on the "residency checks," but said the ATF did not get gun buyers' addresses from her agency. "I can assure you, they weren't getting it from our records," Geller said, "because we don't take addresses."

In fact, the "Department of State Police - Virginia Firearms Transaction Record" form asks for the purchaser's name, date of birth, Social Security or driver's license number and citizenship status. No other identifying information, such as addresses or telephone numbers is requested.

But ATF Form 4473, the "Firearms Transaction Record Part I - Over-The-Counter," does request the purchaser's address. Those forms are kept together as part of a "buyer's packet" when the VSP form is submitted for the NICS check.

Erich Pratt, communications director for Gun Owners of America (GOA), told Cybercast News Service that these types of allegations against ATF are exactly why GOA members opposed the NICS background check when it was initially proposed.

"Whenever you force good people to jump through hoops before they exercise their rights, you give rogue bureaucrats a chance to harass decent citizens," Pratt said.

"We have a Bill of Rights because government does not always act in our best interest," he continued. "Rather than being spied upon, the American people should be the ones questioning family members and neighbors - not of gun owners - but of these rogue bureaucrats."

ATF agent allegedly 'got quite rude' with gun show customer

James Lalime, who works part time for a gun dealer, was attending the Richmond show on his own. He had brought two firearms and part of a third from his personal collection to offer for sale at the show, which is legal and does not require a federal firearms license (FFL) or local business license.

Lalime claims a man approached him and verbally identified himself as an ATF agent but did not show his credentials or badge.

"He was accusing me of running a business and telling me that I needed to get a business license if I was going to sell firearms," Lalime charged.

The agent allegedly had state police check Lalime's driver's license and learned that it was suspended. He said he was placed in the back of a police car and questioned by the agent while the suspension was investigated.

"He kept asking me all kinds of questions: 'How often do you buy guns? When do you buy guns? When was the last time you bought a gun? How many guns did you buy the last time you bought guns?'" Lalime continued. "All that is irrelevant and I told him that. I said, 'That's my personal business.'"

Lalime was released when it was learned that his license was valid and the alleged suspension was caused by a computer error. He went back into the gun show and told Gelles about the encounter and she suggested that Lalime get the agent's name.

When he found the agent, who identified himself as Special Agent Brian McComas, Lalime claims McComas tried to intimidate him.

"He said, 'You know you're making a big deal about nothing,' and I said, 'No sir, I am not,'" Lalime explained. "Then he got right in my face, almost touching his chest to mine, in real threatening posture, and said, 'You're making a real big mistake.'"

Lalime claims Swann interrupted the confrontation and the two federal officers walked away. "Once I got over the initial shock, it really made me angry," Lalime said.

ATF is 'out of the residency check business'

Gelles and her attorneys were in Washington, D.C., Aug. 15 to meet with ATF officials and seek an explanation for what happened over the weekend. After talking with several people in the ATF headquarters, Gelles said she finally spoke with a supervisor, whom she would not identify, who assured her that ATF "is out of the residency check business, effective immediately."

She was hesitant to give further details about the meeting in the event that a lawsuit is filed over the agency's actions.

In addition to the $7,000 she said she lost from reduced attendance at the show, Gelles added that she has already spent more than $12,000 in legal fees trying to prevent a repeat of the ATF operation of Aug. 13 and 14 and other previous incidents of what she considers improper agency behavior.

Van Cleave said his groups will be "watching in Virginia with a microscope to make sure that nothing like this ever happens again.

"If they do it again, we'll get active in contacting the ATF, the police and the media," Van Cleave warned. "If they break their word on this and start this crap again, then we will be in touch with the media."

After more than a half-dozen calls by Cybercast News Service seeking comment for this article, an ATF spokesman said the agency was "still gathering information" about the events of Aug. 13 and 14 and would not be able to comment until sometime on Tuesday.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:12:29 AM EDT
well, if ever there was another reason i needed NOT to go to the richmond gunshows, this is it!
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:14:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hardcorps1775:
well, if ever there was another reason i needed NOT to go to the richmond gunshows, this is it!



If it happened in Richmond, it could happen in your neighborhood too.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:20:22 AM EDT
This is gonna BLOW up in their faces.

first off: VCDL is the single most effective state organization in the union (ok, confederacy!). They're already on it. Heads will roll.

second off: can you say PWNED!!!!!!!!

Richmond Police spokeswoman Kirsten Nelson e-mailed her response to questions about the apparent sting operation.

"I have done some checking and as I said on the phone, the gun show was not in our jurisdiction," Nelson wrote, "so I have no record of our officers' participation."

Gelles said the participation of Richmond Police officers in the operation has already been documented, by Richmond Police officers.

"My own Richmond City Police officers that are there, that I hire for my security purposes, told me that they saw 14 (Richmond City Police officers) on Saturday in plain clothes," Gelles said.




third: this is ALL THE MORE REASON TO GO TO RICHMOND GUN SHOWS. Attitudes like hardcorps1775 is why hardcorps1775 has such a gun-friendly country. (I know you were joking, of course, but many people DID think like that!). I plan on going to the next one (something I don't normally do) just to see how many 4473's I can get my name on in one day.

fourth: we do realize jsut how outrageous what they did was right? Taking information for one reason, using it for another? Soudn a little too uber-Patriot act?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:24:42 AM EDT
and this is one of the greatest quotes I've read from a non-NRA (speechwriter written, that is!) representative:


"Whenever you force good people to jump through hoops before they exercise their rights, you give rogue bureaucrats a chance to harass decent citizens," Pratt said.

"We have a Bill of Rights because government does not always act in our best interest," he continued.



I mean, that's good. Great response to a 'Why would you possibly be opposed to NICS checks at gun shows' question. Almost perfect.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:26:33 AM EDT
Perhaps now all those calling BS in my thread on this topic will begin to get what is really going on.

It seems like the ATF decided to go cowboy at this thing. Doesn't it bother anyone that the BATFE tried to setup a STING operation at a Gunshow, which is a PERFECTLY LEGAL activity protected by the Constitution???

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:32:51 AM EDT
Great update. Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:33:57 AM EDT
Tagged, scary and disturbing.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:44:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Perhaps now all those calling BS in my thread on this topic will begin to get what is really going on.

It seems like the ATF decided to go cowboy at this thing. Doesn't it bother anyone that the BATFE tried to setup a STING operation at a Gunshow, which is a PERFECTLY LEGAL activity protected by the Constitution???




As much as it would be cool to see, you have no constitutional right to go to a gunshow. And gunshows are not constitutionaly protected.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:53:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Perhaps now all those calling BS in my thread on this topic will begin to get what is really going on.

It seems like the ATF decided to go cowboy at this thing. Doesn't it bother anyone that the BATFE tried to setup a STING operation at a Gunshow, which is a PERFECTLY LEGAL activity protected by the Constitution???




Yeah, I agree, people like Phil A Steen who said oh, the BATF would never do such a thing....have been proven WRONG. It wasn't BS....and IMO it was a criminal act and intimidation by these scumbags. Gee is it any wonder people HATE the BATFE?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:00:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Perhaps now all those calling BS in my thread on this topic will begin to get what is really going on.

It seems like the ATF decided to go cowboy at this thing. Doesn't it bother anyone that the BATFE tried to setup a STING operation at a Gunshow, which is a PERFECTLY LEGAL activity protected by the Constitution???




As much as it would be cool to see, you have no constitutional right to go to a gunshow. And gunshows are not constitutionaly protected.




Wrong, ALL legal activities are constitutionally protected.

TXL
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:08:56 AM EDT
For some reason I don't see the swarm of naysayers here, like they were in the other thread......

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:15:25 AM EDT
Well, it's time for those who questioned VCDL's veracity or dedication to the 2nd Amendment to take their heads out of their asses and say "I'm was wrong"...if they're man enough, that is.

I didn't say anything when all this broke, but I remember a couple of folks who hoisted the BS flag, thinking they're about to get owned.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:16:51 AM EDT
What sneaky trash to do against gun owners.

Max
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:24:26 AM EDT
Well, photoman, I can make a very good case that guns shows are protected as interstate commerce just as if you were selling any other lawful product. That leaves out arguments such as:

1. the Fourth Amendment prohibition against unreasonable search & seizure, i.e., "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects..." and warrantless searches.

2. the Second Amendment about the obvious "right of the people to keep and bear arms..."

3. the Fifth Amendment which says "...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

Hell, that's pretty good case without even looking at any of the other amendments.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:25:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Perhaps now all those calling BS in my thread on this topic will begin to get what is really going on.

It seems like the ATF decided to go cowboy at this thing. Doesn't it bother anyone that the BATFE tried to setup a STING operation at a Gunshow, which is a PERFECTLY LEGAL activity protected by the Constitution???




As much as it would be cool to see, you have no constitutional right to go to a gunshow. And gunshows are not constitutionaly protected.




There are laws against harassment. There are laws protecting the information provided during a firearms transaction. Purchasing a firearms firearms is protected by the BOR. It has nothing to do with the venue it's the miss use of information and the subsequent harrassment.

If you'd like to take it further, it's also a case of restraint of commerce/trade. Having that many LEO conspicuously placed was intended to negatively affect the commerce that was going on. What about the potential impact to a lawful assembly. It's obvious their intention was to intimidate people with the desired effect of limiting particpation in the lawful assembly.

Bomber
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:29:33 AM EDT
yeah, i was kidding. and i DID write my congresscritters my usual angrygram about this. good thing is that sen allen and congresswoman davis are on this.

for you guys outside va, you might want to write your critters as well using this story as a reference asking how this happened and to make sure it damn well doesn't happen in YOUR neck of the woods!
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:36:12 AM EDT
I will have letter written and sent to all my Congressional reps by the end of the day.
This is infuriating.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:36:58 AM EDT
It might be fun to bring a video camera to the show next time. Video tape the officers and their activities. If they pulled that house check crap again, have someone follow them around and document it all.
I bet that would irritate the crap out of them.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:07:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:
As much as it would be cool to see, you have no constitutional right to go to a gunshow. And gunshows are not constitutionaly protected.



Wow.

Simply stunning.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:17:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

As much as it would be cool to see, you have no constitutional right to go to a gunshow. And gunshows are not constitutionaly protected.



You need to retake that fourth grade civics class you missed because your special bus was always late. Where on earth did you dredge up this horseshit?!?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:29:38 AM EDT
another tag.

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:37:09 AM EDT
Tag-

Another angry Virginian, here.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:41:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Perhaps now all those calling BS in my thread on this topic will begin to get what is really going on.

It seems like the ATF decided to go cowboy at this thing. Doesn't it bother anyone that the BATFE tried to setup a STING operation at a Gunshow, which is a PERFECTLY LEGAL activity protected by the Constitution???




It never even occured to me to doubt your post. I actually thought that the gestopo batfe was showing some restraint, they didn't kick in any doors, or stomp any kittens to death or deny any cancer patients the medication, I think that the sensetivity training is paying off.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 7:03:09 AM EDT




As much as it would be cool to see, you have no constitutional right to go to a gunshow church. And gunshows Churches are not constitutionaly protected.



wow.....just wow!
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:46:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
For some reason I don't see the swarm of naysayers here, like they were in the other thread......




Don't worry, I'm here now.


Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Perhaps now all those calling BS in my thread on this topic will begin to get what is really going on.

It seems like the ATF decided to go cowboy at this thing. Doesn't it bother anyone that the BATFE tried to setup a STING operation at a Gunshow, which is a PERFECTLY LEGAL activity protected by the Constitution???



What bothers me about John_Wayne777's thread is we're talking two completely different stories. Plus he also seems to be confused on the meaning of "PERFECTLY LEGAL." Violating federal law, whether you agree with them or not, can never be considered "PERFECTLY LEGAL."

It looks like there might be some truth to James Lalime getting harrased by the ATF. In fact, this is a fairly common occurance. For years ATF has been trolling gun shows looking for unlicensed, "private individuals" who seem to show up at a gun show just about every weekend with a table full of guns to sell. And most of the time that "private individual" works for an FFL and has a good friend who's a dealer and sells guns to him "personally," and then the "private individual" turns around and sells them at gun shows to anyone with no paperwork. This is an old scam, highly illegal, and whenever I find other dealers pulling this shit I immediately cut off all business with this moron.

These are the assholes who make it difficult for all the other FFLs out there. And I predict that both James Lalime and the fucktard FFL he works for are both going to be dragged into federal court and spend the next ten years getting ass-pounded in the prison showers. And deservedly so.

Then there's the second story - all this unsubstantiated crap about Richmond Police going to gun show purchaser's homes and asking questions, informing neighbors that someone is buying a gun, etc. The problem is, I don't see any evidence. No names, no witnesses, no complaints filed, nobody stepping forward saying "I got home from the gun show and my wife said the police came by and..." Nothing. Just Phillip Van Cleave saying "I've had reports..."

This is a case of "some guy said that some guy said..." And now it's "some guy on the internet said that some guy said that some guy said..." Nothing. Bullshit. It didn't happen. The gun show isn't even in Richmond's jurisdiction, it would have taken unprecidented cooperation between the ATF and local authorities, there's no way this all could've been accomplished in the time frame given, and there are no named witnesses coming forward.

While I believe James Lalime's story, because he is a criminal commiting crimes at the gun show and has admitted as much, the other "police interviewing neighbors" story is nothing but pure bullshit.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:56:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JavaMan:
blah blah blah blah blah....



Sure it is!!!

You, since you were there and know all the players involved better than those of us who live here, are perfectly qualified to make such statements, right?

Mercy. So much silliness in one morning is unbelievable.

Is there a gas leak near you or something???
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:05:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JavaMan:
While I believe James Lalime's story, because he is a criminal commiting crimes at the gun show and has admitted as much, the other "police interviewing neighbors" story is nothing but pure bullshit.



You and I must have differing concepts of admitting criminal actions.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:08:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 9:08:50 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

Originally Posted By JavaMan:
While I believe James Lalime's story, because he is a criminal commiting crimes at the gun show and has admitted as much, the other "police interviewing neighbors" story is nothing but pure bullshit.



You and I must have differing concepts of admitting criminal actions.



Javaman's concepts on a lot of things are...."different"....

Seems that the BATFE wasn't harrassing people enough to his liking....

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:13:42 AM EDT
Why are Richmond City police operating outside of their jurisdiction? I guess Henrico County is also going ghetto.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:14:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 9:16:08 AM EDT by policeman]


As much as it would be cool to see, you have no constitutional right to go to a gunshow. And gunshows are not constitutionaly protected.




Photoman, I hate to disagree with you but as several others here have stated it falls under several different amendments and laws. The 1st Amendment allows for freedom to assembly to trade ideas and speech. That is what everyone who goes to church, football games, conventions, guns shows etc... etc.... do they gather for either commerce or to share ideas and speech.

Anytime Americans gather lawfully in large or small numbers to speak and trade ideas it is protected because if it was not then everyone on this board would have no legal arguement if the .gov came and arrested you for writing your reply. The freedom to assemble is a guarenteed right. Just because its not politically correct doesn't make it illegal.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 9:18:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By JavaMan:
blah blah blah blah blah....



Sure it is!!!

You, since you were there and know all the players involved better than those of us who live here, are perfectly qualified to make such statements, right?

Mercy. So much silliness in one morning is unbelievable.

Is there a gas leak near you or something???



+1. I think we found our ATF agent.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:30:59 AM EDT
As I stated in the other thread it's good you VA guys have the VCDL active in your state. Although I don't live in VA I'm going to send them a donation.

It is obvious that something quite unusual other then the "normal" ATF unlicensed dealer stings took place at the show. I have no doubt that the Interstate Gun Interdiction Task Force funds and possibly Homeland Defense funds were used in this operation. The .gov agencies and programs that operate under these grants must use their funds or face having them non-renewed. Keep in mind that they will apply for increased funding based on their "paper" performance reports. Some genius obviously dreamed this operation up with that in mind.

If this can happen in a "pro-gun" state just imagine what they have in store people in the anti-gun states.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:41:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JavaMan:


While I believe James Lalime's story, because he is a criminal commiting crimes at the gun show and has admitted as much, the other "police interviewing neighbors" story is nothing but pure bullshit.



You know him to be a criminal huh? Are are you just another tard behind a keyboard who points out everyone else's assumptions while you fly your flaming kite of wild assertions?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:52:22 AM EDT
For those Virginians (and others) in this thread who have yet to hear about this, go here:

VCDL VA Alert

And sign up for the VA Alert email list. Weekly updates on happenings around the state and emergency updates whenever news breaks.

Free and worth your time.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:53:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JavaMan:
pure bullshit.



You sir, are an asshat.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:25:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By lokt:

Originally Posted By photoman:

As much as it would be cool to see, you have no constitutional right to go to a gunshow. And gunshows are not constitutionaly protected.



You need to retake that fourth grade civics class you missed because your special bus was always late. Where on earth did you dredge up this horseshit?!?



You are dreaming if you think that you will successfully sue your state or local jurisdiction on constitutional grounds because they have effectively closed down gun shows by regulation in your area. The local enactment of liability insurance, security and other local laws that prohibit the use of state or county owned facilities have accomplished the closing of shows in these areas.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:32:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:
this is ALL THE MORE REASON TO GO TO RICHMOND GUN SHOWS.



Yep.

I'm not sure where this show was held, but the Richmond-area shows at the Showplace (Henrico, I think) often have a good ARFcom turnout.

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:41:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rkbar15:

Originally Posted By lokt:

Originally Posted By photoman:

As much as it would be cool to see, you have no constitutional right to go to a gunshow. And gunshows are not constitutionaly protected.



You need to retake that fourth grade civics class you missed because your special bus was always late. Where on earth did you dredge up this horseshit?!?



You are dreaming if you think that you will successfully sue your state or local jurisdiction on constitutional grounds because they have effectively closed down gun shows by regulation in your area. The local enactment of liability insurance, security and other local laws that prohibit the use of state or county owned facilities have accomplished the closing of shows in these areas.




No offense but are you sure you posted up in the right thread? Who mentioned a law suit? Who mentioned regulating gun shows? This gun show was legally held.

The point is as I and others have pointed out, that there are a whole host of reasons that this could be a constitiional infringement. Gunshows per se may not be protected, but the manner in which they are carried out and point of them are. Try the first and second amendments for beginners. Then how about the 4th? What about restraint of free trade? As of this writting, gun shows are legal activities. Buying and selling guns at gunshows are legal activities. Taking actions that prevent legal activities is in itself and illegal activity. Intimidation and coersion are not necessarily illegal but a closer look would be warrented.

Bomber
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:54:43 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:58:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 11:59:12 AM EDT by rkbar15]

Originally Posted By thebomber:

Originally Posted By rkbar15:

Originally Posted By lokt:

Originally Posted By photoman:

As much as it would be cool to see, you have no constitutional right to go to a gunshow. And gunshows are not constitutionaly protected.



You need to retake that fourth grade civics class you missed because your special bus was always late. Where on earth did you dredge up this horseshit?!?



You are dreaming if you think that you will successfully sue your state or local jurisdiction on constitutional grounds because they have effectively closed down gun shows by regulation in your area. The local enactment of liability insurance, security and other local laws that prohibit the use of state or county owned facilities have accomplished the closing of shows in these areas.




No offense but are you sure you posted up in the right thread? Who mentioned a law suit? Who mentioned regulating gun shows? This gun show was legally held.

The point is as I and others have pointed out, that there are a whole host of reasons that this could be a constitiional infringement. Gunshows per se may not be protected, but the manner in which they are carried out and point of them are. Try the first and second amendments for beginners. Then how about the 4th? What about restraint of free trade? As of this writting, gun shows are legal activities. Buying and selling guns at gunshows are legal activities. Taking actions that prevent legal activities is in itself and illegal activity. Intimidation and coersion are not necessarily illegal but a closer look would be warrented.

Bomber



No, you misunderstood my post. First it had nothing to do with what occurred at the VA show. It was only meant to illustrate how anti-gun states and counties can effectively regulate gun shows out of business without violating constitutional grounds. They simply create a anti-gun show climate by regulation that makes it economically unattractive to gun show promoters. If you have deep pockets you can fight these tactics but that is rarely done once again due to economic reasons.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:03:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rkbar15:

No, you misunderstood my post. First it had nothing to do with what occurred at the VA show. It was only meant to illustrate how anti-gun states and counties can effectively regulate gun shows out of business without violating constitutional grounds. They simply create a anti-gun show climate by regulation that makes it economically unattractive to gun show promoters. If you have deep pockets you can fight these tactics but that is rarely done once again due to economic reasons.




Agreed.


Bomber
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:11:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 12:13:35 PM EDT by JavaMan]

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By JavaMan:
blah blah blah blah blah....



Sure it is!!!

You, since you were there and know all the players involved better than those of us who live here, are perfectly qualified to make such statements, right?

Mercy. So much silliness in one morning is unbelievable.

Is there a gas leak near you or something???





Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Javaman's concepts on a lot of things are...."different"....

Seems that the BATFE wasn't harrassing people enough to his liking....



So, were you there? Did you witness anything? Are you qualified in any way to comment on the accuracy of this report? I think your religious indoctrination has completely destroyed your capacity for critical thought. You've spent so much of your lifetime waiting to eagerly lap up any bullshit fairy story shoveled out to you by self-appointed authority figures that you're unable to discriminate the hard truth from unsubstantiated rumors.

To recap -

I think what happened to James Lalime is true and actually took place. But from Lalime's own words, it appears to me that he brought the ATF's attention upon himself because he's been trying to skirt the regulations and has in fact been violating federal law. I predict things will be getting hotter for him in the near future.

About the so-called abuses "reported" to Philip Van Cleave, I can't find any evidence of them anywhere. I've looked at the VCDL Website and there is absolutely no mention of these incidents. On the front page there are stories about self-defense shootings in Richmond, Outback Steakhouse and National Park carry, but not a peep about ATF agents or Richmond PD notifying the neighbors of gun show buyers. Nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada.

So if this incident is indeed true, then why hasn't the president of the VCDL posted it on the web page? Why hasn't even one person come forward and said it happened to them? Or even that they know someone who it happened to. Why hasn't Philip Van Cleave released any information like names of victims or Richmond PD officers involved?

So that's my complaint - too many people seem all too ready to believe anything that pops up on the internet that tends to fit their own personal agenda, even though absolutely no corroborating evidence whatsoever accompanies the unsubstantiated report.

Somebody, please straighten me out. Provide some verifiable evidence that these abuses actually took place. Until then, I'm calling bullshit.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:40:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 12:47:23 PM EDT by thebomber]

Originally Posted By JavaMan:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By JavaMan:
blah blah blah blah blah....



Sure it is!!!

You, since you were there and know all the players involved better than those of us who live here, are perfectly qualified to make such statements, right?

Mercy. So much silliness in one morning is unbelievable.

Is there a gas leak near you or something???





Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Javaman's concepts on a lot of things are...."different"....

Seems that the BATFE wasn't harrassing people enough to his liking....



So, were you there? Did you witness anything? Are you qualified in any way to comment on the accuracy of this report? I think your religious indoctrination has completely destroyed your capacity for critical thought. You've spent so much of your lifetime waiting to eagerly lap up any bullshit fairy story shoveled out to you by self-appointed authority figures that you're unable to discriminate the hard truth from unsubstantiated rumors.

To recap -

I think what happened to James Lalime is true and actually took place. But from Lalime's own words, it appears to me that he brought the ATF's attention upon himself because he's been trying to skirt the regulations and has in fact been violating federal law. I predict things will be getting hotter for him in the near future.

About the so-called abuses "reported" to Philip Van Cleave, I can't find any evidence of them anywhere. I've looked at the VCDL Website and there is absolutely no mention of these incidents. On the front page there are stories about self-defense shootings in Richmond, Outback Steakhouse and National Park carry, but not a peep about ATF agents or Richmond PD notifying the neighbors of gun show buyers. Nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada.

So if this incident is indeed true, then why hasn't the president of the VCDL posted it on the web page? Why hasn't even one person come forward and said it happened to them? Or even that they know someone who it happened to. Why hasn't Philip Van Cleave released any information like names of victims or Richmond PD officers involved?

So that's my complaint - too many people seem all too ready to believe anything that pops up on the internet that tends to fit their own personal agenda, even though absolutely no corroborating evidence whatsoever accompanies the unsubstantiated report.

Somebody, please straighten me out. Provide some verifiable evidence that these abuses actually took place. Until then, I'm calling bullshit.



You are a hypocrite. You do exactly what you accuse others of. BTW....go back to the VCDL website and do some more reading.

We who actually live in VA and know Mr. Van Cleave, are closer to this than your sorry ass. Pedal your judgemental shit somewhere else.

Bomber
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:50:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JavaMan:

About the so-called abuses "reported" to Philip Van Cleave, I can't find any evidence of them anywhere. I've looked at the VCDL Website and there is absolutely no mention of these incidents.



Reading is Fundamental

It's all over the VA-ALERT Archive.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 1:50:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 3:05:57 PM EDT by JavaMan]

Originally Posted By thebomber:
You are a hypocrite. You do exactly what you accuse others of. BTW....go back to the VCDL website and do some more reading.

We who actually live in VA and know Mr. Van Cleave, are closer to this than your sorry ass. Pedal your judgemental shit somewhere else.



Oh, I see - since you live in VA that means you're blessed with some sort of insight that I don't have. Hey, wait a minute, let me check my driver's license. Well, what do you know?





Originally Posted By Woden:
Reading is Fundamental

It's all over the VA-ALERT Archive.



Yes I know, I read all that. And all I saw were a few baseless rumors with no evidence or details to back them up, and a copy of the same CNS News story, which does not have any details, either. It's just the same crap recycled. And it wouldn't really matter, because CNS News is not a reputable news source anyway.

So where's this evidence? I still don't see it.

Look, guys - I've been a Title II dealer for more than 2 decades, and I've seen all this before. And it also means that I see it from a different perspective than the rest of you. For instance, there's James Lalime. Many of you seem to see him as some sort of victim or freedom fighter. I see him as a criminal who fucks things up for dealers like me and other individuals. He's one of those guys who buys a bunch of guns on 4473s from the dealer he works for then sets up a table at several gun shows and resells them as a "private party" to people who want to avoid the background check (possibly due to criminal records). It's assholes like this that makes my life difficult. (BTW - the dealer he works for can expect a very thorough compliance inspection in the near future.)

This whole thing seems to have been started when Lalime got hassled by the ATF. From there it mushroomed into squads of Richmond PD and ATF and the gun show, and ended up with RPD making family and neighbors of gun show buyers filling out "surveys." Except no one can produce anybody who got "surveyed."

I'll tell you what I think happened - James Lalime got questioned by the ATF because they've been watching him sell a whole lot of "privately owned" guns at several gunshows. He started spreading his story, along with some exaggerations and fabrications of police activities, and then people who heard these rumors started calling Philip Van Cleave who posts he's "received reports" on the VCDL web site and it got picked up by a super-right-wing pro gun, pro religion "news service" with an agenda. From there it gets forwarded again and again to gun bulletin boards until everybody takes as hard fact.

But it isn't. Because there's no evidence except 4th or 5th had reports. And no witnesses. So I'm still waiting for the evidence. Anyone?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 3:36:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 4:12:22 PM EDT by thebomber]
Once again Reading is Fundlemental. Stick your head in the sand and overlook things that don't jibe with your POV. Your interpretation is correct because you're a dealer . We all heard you side. nuff said. Let it play out.

Bomber
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 3:42:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Perhaps now all those calling BS in my thread on this topic will begin to get what is really going on.

It seems like the ATF decided to go cowboy at this thing. Doesn't it bother anyone that the BATFE tried to setup a STING operation at a Gunshow, which is a PERFECTLY LEGAL activity protected by the Constitution???




As much as it would be cool to see, you have no constitutional right to go to a gunshow. And gunshows are not constitutionaly protected.



Holy Shit! Can you be that stupid, really?

It's right on the FIRST fucking Amendment!


Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances



Link Posted: 8/23/2005 3:51:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JavaMan:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
For some reason I don't see the swarm of naysayers here, like they were in the other thread......




Don't worry, I'm here now.


Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Perhaps now all those calling BS in my thread on this topic will begin to get what is really going on.

It seems like the ATF decided to go cowboy at this thing. Doesn't it bother anyone that the BATFE tried to setup a STING operation at a Gunshow, which is a PERFECTLY LEGAL activity protected by the Constitution???



What bothers me about John_Wayne777's thread is we're talking two completely different stories. Plus he also seems to be confused on the meaning of "PERFECTLY LEGAL." Violating federal law, whether you agree with them or not, can never be considered "PERFECTLY LEGAL."

It looks like there might be some truth to James Lalime getting harrased by the ATF. In fact, this is a fairly common occurance. For years ATF has been trolling gun shows looking for unlicensed, "private individuals" who seem to show up at a gun show just about every weekend with a table full of guns to sell. And most of the time that "private individual" works for an FFL and has a good friend who's a dealer and sells guns to him "personally," and then the "private individual" turns around and sells them at gun shows to anyone with no paperwork. This is an old scam, highly illegal, and whenever I find other dealers pulling this shit I immediately cut off all business with this moron.

These are the assholes who make it difficult for all the other FFLs out there. And I predict that both James Lalime and the fucktard FFL he works for are both going to be dragged into federal court and spend the next ten years getting ass-pounded in the prison showers. And deservedly so.

Then there's the second story - all this unsubstantiated crap about Richmond Police going to gun show purchaser's homes and asking questions, informing neighbors that someone is buying a gun, etc. The problem is, I don't see any evidence. No names, no witnesses, no complaints filed, nobody stepping forward saying "I got home from the gun show and my wife said the police came by and..." Nothing. Just Phillip Van Cleave saying "I've had reports..."

This is a case of "some guy said that some guy said..." And now it's "some guy on the internet said that some guy said that some guy said..." Nothing. Bullshit. It didn't happen. The gun show isn't even in Richmond's jurisdiction, it would have taken unprecidented cooperation between the ATF and local authorities, there's no way this all could've been accomplished in the time frame given, and there are no named witnesses coming forward.

While I believe James Lalime's story, because he is a criminal commiting crimes at the gun show and has admitted as much, the other "police interviewing neighbors" story is nothing but pure bullshit.



You have GOT to be the resident apologist ATFer here. Or just another DU dipstick. Both at the bottom of the BBL as far as I'm concerned.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 3:55:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JavaMan:



Your license confirms it.

"Class: None"

Interesting!

BTW, G. Gordon Liddy interviewed someone about it today. Seems like there is something to this story, huh?

I'm sorry you live in my home state. I see you are in Manassas. Which confirms my thoughts on Manassholians too......

Lots if info to be had from you post.....

Thanks!
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:06:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JavaMan:
So, were you there? Did you witness anything? Are you qualified in any way to comment on the accuracy of this report? I think your religious indoctrination has completely destroyed your capacity for critical thought. You've spent so much of your lifetime waiting to eagerly lap up any bullshit fairy story shoveled out to you by self-appointed authority figures that you're unable to discriminate the hard truth from unsubstantiated rumors.



And we see the further unhinging of Javaman. Because I am a Christian, obviously I am incapable of rational thought.

He, despite not living here, not having any familiarity with any of the key players OR the VCDL, is obviously in a better position to judge the accuracy of the report than poor religious idiots like little old me.

Sure.

Whatever you say.



To recap -

I think



You should stop right there, as the effort appears to be far too taxing for you.



what happened to James Lalime is true and actually took place. But from Lalime's own words, it appears to me that he brought the ATF's attention upon himself because he's been trying to skirt the regulations and has in fact been violating federal law. I predict things will be getting hotter for him in the near future.



Lalime is a VCDL member. He is not, and was not, breaking any laws.




About the so-called abuses "reported" to Philip Van Cleave, I can't find any evidence of them anywhere. I've looked at the VCDL Website and there is absolutely no mention of these incidents. On the front page there are stories about self-defense shootings in Richmond, Outback Steakhouse and National Park carry, but not a peep about ATF agents or Richmond PD notifying the neighbors of gun show buyers. Nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada.



Really? One would think that a critical thinker with powers so much advanced over us poor little Christians would be capable of finding the following on the VCDL website where all the alerts are listed:

www2.vcdl.org/cgi-bin/wspd_cgi.sh/vcdl/vaarchive.html




So if this incident is indeed true, then why hasn't the president of the VCDL posted it on the web page?



Again, o ye of mighty powers of reasoning, Mr. Van Cleave DID post it. Your powerful intellect was simply unable to find the alerts. Though they are linked right there on the main page....



Why hasn't even one person come forward and said it happened to them?



Again, o mighty one, LaLime and the promoter of the Richmond show HAVE come forward, and HAVE talked to the press. Mr. Van Cleave posted links in one of those updates your towering intellect was unable to find.



Or even that they know someone who it happened to. Why hasn't Philip Van Cleave released any information like names of victims or Richmond PD officers involved?



Once more, o benevolent and wise one, look at the posts in this thread and you will find out that legal action is pending, and the BATFE has been contacted, and that more information WILL be made available as it comes available. All of that is mentioned on those alerts that your towering intellect was unable to find.



So that's my complaint - too many people seem all too ready to believe anything that pops up on the internet that tends to fit their own personal agenda, even though absolutely no corroborating evidence whatsoever accompanies the unsubstantiated report.



And you, of course, knowing all the players involved, being a member of the VCDL, working tirelessly with the VCDL members to reform gun laws in Virginia and constantly butting heads with the dimwits in Richmond are emminently qualified to judge the accuracy of this, correct?

I would argue with you, but clearly a weak minded little Christian like myself could never hope to prevail against your staggering mental capacity.



Somebody, please straighten me out. Provide some verifiable evidence that these abuses actually took place. Until then, I'm calling bullshit.



www.showmasters.us/index.html

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