There is a gun show this weekend and I plan on buying a varmint rifle. My delima is that should I get an AR varminter type rifle (DPMS Bull most likley) or should I go with a Remington 700 bull barrel. I would be using these for crow, praire dog and occasional yote. Shots would be taken at 200yards and max of 400 yards. I have optics and enough cash so I just need a point to the right direction.

You might also consider a Savage bolt rifle for a lot less money and just as accurate as a Remington.  I know, the Rem costs more so, therefore, it must be better.  It has a better trigger, but the Savage is a better buy.

My 0.2 cents.  Remington M700 VLS in .223, 22/250 or 6mm for high wind areas.

My opinions of course.

Talyn

A good (Colt model CR-6724 or other brand/24" hvy, free-float.,1/9) AR will outshoot the fanciest Rem 700 223, Police or varmint rifle. Provide the AR has a good scope, good trigger and good loads. Only a Krieger barreled custom Rem 700 will out shoot it. If it's gonna be a bolt, IMHO stick w/ the Rem 700, you can always up-grade the trigger or barrel and have many choices of products.

Mike

I have had good success with my Colt flattop and my 700 vs.  With the AR you are prob going to get a twist of 1/9 or 1/8 which means you need to stick to heavy bullets.  The 700 will have a 1/12 (that is if you stick with .223) And I like the splat from those 50 gr blitz Kings! The bolt action, stock and 26 inch barrel, and the trigger give you several points over the ar. One of the biggest selling point on the 700 for me is the trigger, very easily adjusted to your tastes.

One last issue is in some states (like PA ) you can not hunt with the ar even for varmit.

I have to dissagree with MrWillson my 700 will out shoot my colt right out of the box, but you are talking about .5 to 3/8 in groups for the colt vs .25 on the 700. The 700 is a very solid action.


Have you thought about getting the bull upper and the 700? And LarryG is right, I know some people doing some amazing things with the Savages!  

As for the hunting experience, I love to hunt with both.  I will say I have freaked out a farmer or two when I drag out the colt with the 50 mm objective scope! Both are heavy. The synthetic stocks on both are forgiving for fence posts, barbwire, slipping on cow patties and busting your butt. Hunting with an ar type is just plain fun! But that extra barrel and extra margin of consistancy of the 700 help when you get out to 400 yards. But the chalenge is part of the experience for me, that is why people still hunt with 22 hornet.

When you absolutely positively have to send the very best:

.308 VLS (not recommended for serious hoggin, but what the heck, its still fun)

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22-250 VS
Baby.

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FreeAmerican, if you get a 1:9 twist by all means try the light bullets!


My god, I've got a 40grain Vmax load for my 1:9 twist barreled AR15 that is averaging right at 3/4 inch for 10 shots at 100 yards!  THE KICKER IS THAT IT'S MIXED BRASS AND HARDLY WHAT I'D CONSIDER TO BE "MATCH" BY ANYMEANS!   Often times I've got 6-7 shots going through 1/2 inch or less and 3-4 shots pushing the group out to 3/4 inch or slightly wider.   I've found a lot of people who have great results when using 40grain bullets from 1:9 and even 1:8 twist barrels, the 223Rem doesn't blow them to pieces like you'd likely see with a 22/250 and it still manages to do it fairly accurately.   Most just never know until they try it though, I seriously do not believe that a 1:12 is required though after my experiences with my 1:9 and I full well intend on seeing if I can get a match grade load while using 40grain bullets by further tweaking my current favorite.



I shoot a fair number of my squirrels while using 40grain Vmaxes and only when I figure that I'm gonna be shooting out past 250 yards do I switch over to 55grain bullets.   The 40s just make a mess at distances of 100-200 yards and I can say that the AR15 is the ultimate varmint rifle, especially in areas where you've got LOTS of targets and you just don't want to bother with reloading a bolt action after every 5th shot and would much rather spend all your time shooting by just using 2-3 20 or 30 round magazines.


zipster223, the AR15 is almost video game like in that you can spot your hits at no matter what the distance, when the AR15 gets above around 12 pounds due to the bull barrel it takes on the nature of being totally recoiless and typically the crosshairs on high magnification(20x) will only bounce off target by about 1/4 inch at 100 yards when shooting from a steady prone position off a bipod.   One of these days I'm gonna see if I can't double tap a quarter at 100 yards after A LOT of practice, my custom AR15 is just that stable off the bipod when in a prone position and the JP Enterprises single stage trigger is that crisp at right about 3 pounds pull weight.



The AR15 is by far my all time favorite varmint rifle.   The real question will be whether or not my AR10 turns into my new favorite after I get a 243Winchester upper for it and use 55-70 grain bullets with it for real long shots on squirrel and coyote.


The only advantage I see with a bolt action is in the area of weight, an AR15 that is tweaked for really serious reliability can take on an unearthly amount of weight so that it's more like a crew served weapon or an "AR15-towed".

Uglygun, got any photos? You AR guys are lucky to have a progressive game dept that lets you use them fancy gas guns...

A 22-250 would give you a quite a bit more reach than the 223.  You might consider that.  I have a 700PSS with a 1:12-24" barrel that will outshoot my best AR, but not by much.  The newer 700PSS rifles have a 1:9-26" tube.  I have had very good luck with 50-52 gr bullets from my 1:9 AR.  Two very different guns.  The trigger can almost certainly be made better on a bolt gun than an AR15 even with an upgraded trigger.  In my experience a very good bolt gun will have an accuracy edge over the AR15.  That advantage may not make up for a fast follow up shot.  Best.  Watch-Six

For prarie dogs, coyotes, and other varmits I just use a bushmaster flattop that I built with a redfield 3-9 on it. I have been able to dust a few dogs out past 300 yards with it in south dakota winds.  Though I did have to walk them in.  Nothin beats the ability to take 29 other follow up shots :).

Ash

Grundsau,

I've got the same pair, except the VLS in 6mm Rem and the VS in .308. The .308 isn't used for varmits though.  The 6mm is complemented by a "walking" varminter M700 Classic in .223. The 6mm comes in handy out here on the windier days.

Regards,

Talyn

Hey Talyn,
Great choices. I had a chance for a VS in .308 for 200 smackers. And then the guy backed out...

I see a VLS 6mm on the horizon with a 6.5-20x50LR Leupold.

I was trying to locate a VLS in 7mm-08. I know they're still out there. Even though its out of production.That caliber would give an excellent BC Vmax bullet for hogs and still use it for deer and whathaveyou.


Every now and then I exercise my Dad's lightweight stainless Ruger M77 in .222. It's great for those humid July Saturdays.

Grundsau,

I got the 6mm VLS for the same reason, before Remington dropped it.  It's a great cartridge, but the VLS is the only rifle, aside from the custom shop, that Remington makes in it. I've got a Weaver V24 6x24 on it. I still have to pick up a sunshade though. I considered the Leupold 6.5x20x50 but saw an excellent deal on the Weaver I couldn't pass up.  So far I'm impressed with the V24.

IMHO, the VS is just as good at the PSS for alot less money.  The stock feels better to me too. I'm switching scopes & will put a Leupold 3.5x10x40 LR on it shortly.

I know what you say about humid July days in PA.  I grew up NE of Pittsburgh. Once I came out west w/o the humidity I said this is where I'm staying.

Regards,

Talyn

I have the Remington 700VLS in .308 just like Grundsau's picture. It's very, very accurate. I'm using a Tasco World Class 3-9X Mil Dot scope. I need a more powerful scope but for now I love it.

Grundsau, knock yourself out,

[url]http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/main.html[/url]



California doesn't consider ground squirrels to be a game animal and with my shooting them on private property hardly anyone cares what I shoot them with or how many of them I shoot.


I do tend to be extremely cautious when out shooting and around public land or on private land that borders public lands/roads.   That's part of the reason for the camo, it's not so the squirrels can't see that I'm armed it's so that the sheeple can't see that I'm armed, it atleast breaks up the classic black "evilness" that comes with the AR15 silouette.  I certainly don't pour out a high volume of fire in a short amount of time from my ARs so hardly anyone is gonna be able to tell whether I'm shooting a bolt action or a semi-auto, if somebody is gonna want to know what I'm shooting they aren't gonna be able to do it from a distance and they're gonna have to get REAL close to make certain what I'm shooting and by that time I aught to know that they are interested in what I'm doing.


Talyn,  the idea of a "walking gun" is not lost on me.   My main squirrel rig weighs in at over 15 pounds, used to think it was 17 but it's closer to 15 since I re-weighed it, and it's about 48 inches long in total length so hauling the thing around for any extended amount of time can be a real bitch.   I'm gonna be using one of my other AR15s to build up a light weight accurized AR15 where the barrel length will likely be a 16-18 light weight contour and built around the idea of keeping it light as possible and for use out to 200 yards or so max, the main rig has nailed squirrels at 400 yards and I'm just now working my way out to 500+ yards and "playing around" with them by putting bullets under their bellies or kicking dust in their faces but to date I haven't nailed any at 500 yards(I've had about 10 real CLOSE misses on ground squirrels, the rifle is capable but currently I am not).

I got just the rifle for ya.  Have been kickin around the idea of selling this piece of art for awhile and you seem like the guy for it.  If you wanna spend a good bit of money for an amazing rifle then here goes.  Olympic Arms Ultramatch upper receiver with 24" barrel, free-float handguard, flat-top, and harris swiveling bipod.  Lower receiver is a pre-ban Colt marked Lightweight Sporter.  Has the PSG-1 style rubber target hand grip.  The trigger is superb, pull is around 3.5lbs.  The entire rifle has been black teflon coated.  The only marks are where it looks like a barrel vise rubbed the handguard a little (don't know when/where).  You said you've got optics so I won't mention the Tasco Super Sniper with mil-dot reticle and millet scope rings.  Now what I'm about to say is border line sacreligious for me to say but I'll say it because it's true.  I love Remington's M700; however, I have yet to see someone make 4 shots in under 12 seconds that all touch at 100yds. with one.  If anyone has, let me know.  I have 2 30rnd. steel mags and 2 20rnd. steel mags.  I think I may have said all this just to make you all drool, because it's gonna take $1,750.00 to get it with everything.  The only reason for that high of a price is the Pre-Ban lower.  Well, and I'm kinda fond of it.  So, this is my speech.  Thank you and good day.  

Uglygun thanks. I had that site bookmarked and forgot it was yours.
I try not to go there much. Gotta keep a towel near the monitor to wipe off my drool.

I have a question for you over in the Slings forum.

Just got back from hunting hogs. Took a friend that is new to hoggin and hunting in general. He capped his first one at 148yds w/the 22-250. Thats easy for us but to him, well you shoulda seen that smile. I got him hooked. Oh, I missed a gimme at 336yds. Shot right over its back. Took him to the gunshop after dark and he's looking at a Contender pistol in .223 or something similiar.


[ Edited By GRUNDSAU on 9/7/2001 10:41:23 PM ]

The real kicker is when you see a freshmeat nail a squirrel and watch it turn to mist.   My buddies and I were out blasting squirrels off a cattle ranch when we had a real dumb one climb out of it's hole only about 75-80 yards away, I nailed him right in the "crap factory"(guts) with a 50grn Sierra TNT and literally, no JOKE, sent the thing about 7 feet up in the air and about 15 feet straight back.   It popped up in front of a little 3 foot tall wood stack and when the bullet impacted we saw the squirrel clear the top of it by atleast 3 feet, we approached from the back side to look for the left overs and all we could find were a few "drippings" from it's arial summersault.   Looking through the wood stack we couldn't find the skinned fleabag so we turned to walk away, we took about 3 steps walking away from the woodstack when we suddenly found our prize.    The woodstack itself was likely 5-6 feet thick and the squirrel was originally on the opposite side of the woodstack and I figure 3 steps is worth about 7-9 feet.


It was a sight to behold.



The other thing that always gets the new guys is how you can hear the "pop" even through your hearing protection and even when the squirrel is 200-300 yards away when the bullet impacted.



A buddy of mine uses a 308Winchester chambered 700VS while shooting 110grain Vmaxes and 125grn TNTs, that thing makes a "pop" like you can't believe but the recoil is just enough so he can't watch the bullets impacting.    He and I usually spot for eachother since we both are using Leupold Long Range 6.5-20x scopes.

I shoot 110gr Vmax's also. And they do wonders when you hit them prone hogs. They can get air. [:D]
How well do you like the 6.5-20 LR's? I am thinking about them for my two bolt guns.

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Gun: Rem 700VS in .22-250.  
Optics: Burris 6-24X50 Black Diamond.  
Bipod: Rugged Gear.  Permanent atached base with detachable legs.  extends/retracts/swivels/locks/tilts side to side.  Alot better than a Harris.

I would run with a .22-250 for the distances you want to shoot varmints.  maybe even biger like a 7mm or .308.

I'll punch my AR out to 200 with iron sights, maybe 300 this year, but that is for coyotes only.  The 700 gets the crows, ground squirrels, and starlings out to 400yds.  (Coyotes also)
If your going to be crawling around and stalking things, I would get the AR-15.  If your going to be set up on a bench or just atop a hill raining down death, then I would go with the 700 in .22-250 or bigger.

I can't believe that no one has mentioned the .220 Swift. I have a Remington M700 VS in .220 Swift and love it. I've never taken it varminting but off the bench this shoots like a gem.

Alex     [sniper]

I tell you what, the Long Range line is likely to be my preferred scope of choice for the next several years.   The side focus/parallax knob has just spoiled me for life, reaching up to the objective to adjust for parallax is just a major pain in the butt compared to the simplicity of being able to use a turret type.


The Long Ranges do seem to be a little difficult to bring into focus and eliminate parallax when the range is inside 100 yards, 100 yards or beyond though and it's just fine which is where most all of my shots are typically fired in the first place.



Love the extra elevation and windage provided by the 30mm tube, the 50mm objective doesn't matter a lot to me, and the side turret for parallax/focus well I just love that!



For my AR10 I will likely get the 8.5-25x Long Range to mate to a 243Winchester upper, yes I'm a magnification HOG!   I rarely step down to a magnification under 10-12x and that's only when I'm finding mirage due to heat, for scanning and distinguishing the rocks from the squirrels I often am at 18-20x and sometimes wishing for more.   I've sat there staring at a rock or little bush for 10 minutes trying to decide whether it was a really well camo'd squirrel or if it's some object not worth wasting a bullet on.


On my "walking gun" I'll likely get a 4.5-14x Long Range for the intermediate ranges.