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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 12/10/2003 4:44:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2003 4:57:16 PM EDT by Booth]
What the hell? I was upgrading my membership in the AR-15 store, and when I went to the checkout page, I was surprised to see that the only electronic payment option was PayPal, which does not allow its service to be used for firearm transactions.

Given the current political situation the struggle for our 2nd Amendment rights and the upcoming fight over the Assault Weapons Ban, the use of PayPal strikes me as a questionable decision, given the subject matter of AR-15.com and the supposed values of the site and especially its members.

Here is an excerpt from PayPal's "Acceptable Use Policy" under the section for "Firearms, Ammunition, Replicas, and Militaria."

You may not use PayPal to sell or advertise any firearms produced after 1898.
(Doesn't AR-15.com "advertise" firearms?)

This includes all "pre-ban," sporting, collectible, and curio and relic (C&R) firearms, regardless of their present capability to fire a shot.

In addition, you may not use PayPal to sell or advertise kits [that can be used to create a firearm].

You may not use PayPal to sell or advertise high capacity magazines (magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds).

You may not use PayPal in conjunction with the sale of ordnance (military weaponry, ammunition, and related parts) unless you can provide official documentation from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) stating that the item is unserviceable or demilitarized. Contact your local ATF office for more details on obtaining such documentation. You can also visit the ATF website for general information about firearms laws.

You may not use PayPal to sell... practice grenades, rifle grenades, dummy grenades, grenade launcher attachments... [unless] they are a relic, curio, memorabilia, or display item [or] otherwise permanently altered in a manner that prevents ready modification for use as a grenade.


(See for yourself here: www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame-outside&ed=firearms))

Guys, I'm not trying to make trouble. In fact I value this site so much so that I'm spending $100 on a membership, but I am truly, deeply dissappointed to discover this situation.

Would members be willing to pony up an extra few percent or so if AR-15.com went with a straight VISA/Mastercard payment system in order to avoid patronizing a business (PayPal) that apparently does not support the rights of gun owners and may in fact be hostile to gun rights?

I guess I'll send a money order to pay for my membership, but I thought other members might want to be aware of this apparent contradiction and perhaps voice any concerns over this as well as suggestions for payment alternatives to the site management/ownership.

[Edited for formatting...]
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 4:46:41 PM EDT
We better boycott ar15.com.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 5:03:27 PM EDT
Hey, wait a minute, now... I'm not kidding around on this, because I think it's worth thinking about, but I'm also not advocating a boycott of AR-15.com or threatening anything else, for that matter. I'm going to send a money order instead, but that's my own decision. It just seems to me that the decision to use an anti-gun service such as PayPal by a site that in fact advocates firearms is an obvious contradiction that should be addressed.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 5:12:05 PM EDT
I was doing my membership today also and I was surprised to see PayPal in the AR15 store. I won't use PP due to their firearms stance... So Goatboy, I sent you a check... [;)]
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 5:25:39 PM EDT
Oh god not this shit again..... [beathorse]
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 5:27:16 PM EDT
This is a dilemma representative of many things in our lives. I prefer to rationalize the PayPal deal like this: what better way to give the collective finger to PayPal than to use their service to support the finest firearms board going?
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 5:41:49 PM EDT
why dont we use like bid pay or something other than paypal?
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 5:42:38 PM EDT
Should we let the DU know?
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 6:06:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2003 6:21:59 PM EDT by -Absolut-]
i use paypal quite often
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 6:15:07 PM EDT
[banghead]
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 6:18:11 PM EDT
Either way, I don't/won't use PayPal. I use MOs for almost everything. I only use a CC when I can't use a MO.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 7:35:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DzlBenz: This is a dilemma representative of many things in our lives. I prefer to rationalize the PayPal deal like this: what better way to give the collective finger to PayPal than to use their service to support the finest firearms board going?
View Quote
Exactly. Plus, there is no "more economical, yet nearly instant" alternative.... [:(]
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 7:46:34 PM EDT
Well its the most efficent out there basicly and accepted by most people. Any similar options?
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 7:52:11 PM EDT
I hate to say it but Paypal is used by allot of people online. It is super easy to sign up and it's by far the easiest to use. That being the case I'm sure that AR15.com gets more people to pay for memberships with the Paypal option (because it's easy). I thinkg for that reason it's in the sites best intrest to use it. Lets say we boycot Paypal in all other instances and bash it's use online whenever possible.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 7:58:45 PM EDT
Hasnt this been covered many times before. The TOS regarding weapons has to do with AUCTIONS. I purchased a Preban bushmaster using the service. Put Thanks for the Snake in the comments. See we can use it to buy horses, snakes, large cats ect ect ect.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 8:07:34 PM EDT
Well, by all means use PayPal if it makes life even a little bit easier. I certainly can't fault anyone for enhancing the corporate profits of a basically anti-gun company if it will save a few minutes of their time! Hey, guys, have at it, maybe PayPal will make enough extra money to be able to help sponsor the next million mom march! So tell yourself you're giving them the finger, why don't you, while giving them your money. Sleep well, friends.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 8:18:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 8:31:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Booth: Sleep well, friends.
View Quote
i will, thanks [:)]
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 9:03:24 PM EDT
I terminated my PAY PAL account. "F" those guys at PAY PAL.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 9:11:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By urbankaos04: I terminated my PAY PAL account. "F" those guys at PAY PAL.
View Quote
Exactly!! Do not use Paypal.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 11:31:01 PM EDT
I get the impresion that PayPal/ebay is covering their ass on laws and legislation passed by the government. If they handle the transactions they could be held liable. Most banned items that they enforce require licensing that they can't verify. If they really wanted to, they could shut down all those auctions for "Model #40 preban 10 rnd AR15 Magazines". So, after boycotting PayPal, will you boycott U.S. dollars. The U.S. government is antigun if you haven't noticed. When you start using scrap gold and silver for money, who is going to handle/transport your money and goods? The post office is not an option as it is government run. How about FedEx, or UPS? No wait, they have some pretty strong antigun policies all their own. I suppose you could hire some trucker to transport your gold/silver across country, if you trust him. Can he guarantee that he won't be robbed or just lose your shipment? Is he insured? Will the insurance company compensate you with gold/silver or U.S. dollars? Protect your second amendment rights... Boycott U.S. currency!
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 6:42:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 9:06:10 AM EDT by Cape_hunter]
I downgraded my account to a personal account after being stiffed for over $200 from a CC transaction. Now I dont pay the fees that you do with a full-on account. Edited to add:[red]This also means you can use the service for gun type transactions and not let them make a red cent![/red] My advice, open a different checking account ot tie your pp account to. For some serious financial horror stories regarding paypal, go here: [url]http://www.paypalsucks.com/[/url] CH
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:59:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Donith: So, after boycotting PayPal, will you boycott U.S. dollars. The U.S. government is antigun if you haven't noticed. When you start using scrap gold and silver for money, who is going to handle/transport your money and goods? The post office is not an option as it is government run. How about FedEx, or UPS? No wait, they have some pretty strong antigun policies all their own. I suppose you could hire some trucker to transport your gold/silver across country, if you trust him. Can he guarantee that he won't be robbed or just lose your shipment? Is he insured? Will the insurance company compensate you with gold/silver or U.S. dollars? Protect your second amendment rights... Boycott U.S. currency!
View Quote
Oh, you are so clever, what a wit you are - for a tenth grader! What a well-thought out and useful reply. Oh, sure, go ahead and laugh it up; I'm glad you find this petty and amusing. Are you saying that if we can't change everything all at once, we should just live with it? Yes, the U.S. Goverment is anti-gun, I had noticed. How do you think it got that way, and whose fault is it? We were only concerned with business as usual while our government gradually turned against our freedoms, now we have to live with that government even as we struggle to change it; we don't have to live with the likes of PayPal. We can change government by participating in the system and by voting, we can change the way businesses like PayPal behave by not participating, and voting with our dollars. If you support a company with a political agenda, the agenda thrives along with the company. If that agenda costs them enough money, their stockholders will force them to abandon it. Our nation and its economy are vast and can only be changed incrementally. We have to be concerned with the little stuff like this, because this is where change begins.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:15:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Booth: Hey, guys, have at it, maybe PayPal will make enough extra money to be able to help sponsor the next million mom march!
View Quote
They already have enough [i]extra[/i] money...being owned by Ebay and all. While we're "enhancing" PayPal's coffers by a few pennies, we're also enhancing AR15.com's by MUCH more.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:26:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 9:36:59 AM EDT by HardShell]
For the umpteenth time... [beathorse] [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=214969[/url] [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=214802[/url] [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=214421[/url] [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=214052[/url] [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=207752[/url] [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=207108[/url] [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=164563[/url] [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=195097[/url] Give it a rest, already... [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 1:04:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Booth:
Originally Posted By Donith: So, after boycotting PayPal, will you boycott U.S. dollars. The U.S. government is antigun if you haven't noticed. When you start using scrap gold and silver for money, who is going to handle/transport your money and goods? The post office is not an option as it is government run. How about FedEx, or UPS? No wait, they have some pretty strong antigun policies all their own. I suppose you could hire some trucker to transport your gold/silver across country, if you trust him. Can he guarantee that he won't be robbed or just lose your shipment? Is he insured? Will the insurance company compensate you with gold/silver or U.S. dollars? Protect your second amendment rights... Boycott U.S. currency!
View Quote
Oh, you are so clever, what a wit you are - for a tenth grader! What a well-thought out and useful reply. Oh, sure, go ahead and laugh it up; I'm glad you find this petty and amusing. Are you saying that if we can't change everything all at once, we should just live with it? Yes, the U.S. Goverment is anti-gun, I had noticed. How do you think it got that way, and whose fault is it? We were only concerned with business as usual while our government gradually turned against our freedoms, now we have to live with that government even as we struggle to change it; we don't have to live with the likes of PayPal. We can change government by participating in the system and by voting, we can change the way businesses like PayPal behave by not participating, and voting with our dollars. If you support a company with a political agenda, the agenda thrives along with the company. If that agenda costs them enough money, their stockholders will force them to abandon it. Our nation and its economy are vast and can only be changed incrementally. We have to be concerned with the little stuff like this, because this is where change begins.
View Quote
Tenth grader? I'll tell you what, if you start an electronic funds transfer business that is as reliable and cost efective as PayPal, I'll be sure to use it and you can make a profit off of me. Until then, I'll keep using them to buy and sell guns and related equipment. The commerce they generate in the gun industry, I feel, offsets their antigun policies. I've used them to buy uppers, lowers, and most recenlty sell barrels. Go on and boycott every industry that has some antigun policy. That even includes some gun industry companies as well. If you are a current customer with a complaint, management will take you a whole lot more seriously than someone who screams "I don't ever use XYZ company because of their policies." Why should they listen when you're not generating any revenue anyway?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 1:26:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 1:28:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 1:47:52 PM EDT
I cancelled my Paypal account last year when I found out about their policy. I had like $.25 in there at the time, amnd they kept sending me letters telling me that I needed to get my money, only they wouldn't give it up because it had to be at least $1.00. Eventually, the idiots sent me a $.25 check. All without me ever corresponding with them. Schmucks...
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