Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Posted: 4/28/2015 5:56:59 PM EDT
Help me out here... I'm thinking about getting a 14.5" SOCOM barrel and having the flash hider pinned so that I have the right length barrel for my Army RCO ACOG.

So I assume you can own a 14.5" AR barrel and it's legal - even before you have the flash hider pinned (I think).

What about if you build an upper with it before the flash hider is pinned. It that legal too?

When exactly does the 14.5" barrel become illegal? Only when you attach it to a lower?

Are there any restrictions on shipping a 14.5" barrel to a gun shop to have a flash suppressor pinned?








Link Posted: 4/28/2015 5:59:40 PM EDT
If you want to get technical about it, no if you only own one AR lower that is a rifle. However if you own a "pistol" lower you are gtg.

But in reality, the ATF has bigger fish to fry, and as long as you send it to get pinned in a short amount of time I'm sure you will be fine.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 6:00:55 PM EDT
You can build the upper and you can even mount it to a lower, as long as it's a pistol lower. You get in trouble when you mount the upper to a rifle lower.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 6:03:50 PM EDT
There had better not be or else I and an awful lot of other people are in big trouble.

But seriously. From what I understand as long as you don't bolt anything to a lower you should be fine.

This is just my opinion though. Not a lawyer and if I was I would be charging. But I try to be fairly careful about these things because you never know what the ATF is going to decree next and plenty of people get arrested for things that aren't crimes. Heck I was once asked if I had a tax stamp for a Steyr AUG at a range I went to.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 6:13:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 6:15:41 PM EDT
IANAL, but if it isn't attached to a rifle lower AND you truly don't intend to attach it to a rifle lower prior to pinning-on a muzzle device for an OAL of >16", then I don't see where a crime is being committed. I'm not sure by your post whether you're trying to see how far you can push your luck, or you're just truly curious and still plan on playing it safe. I'd err on the side of caution.

You can certainly have a 14.5 or 14.7 barrel with nothing attached and be legally OK. It would stand to reason that anyone who ever pinned-on a muzzle device to a 14.5" barrel to make it a >16" rifle barrel did at one time have a short barrel in their possession- presumably without having ever made an actual SBR. Also, you'd never get your gas block or barrel nut on if you pinned the muzzle device first... So it's actually necessary to pin it on as one of the last steps of the build.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 6:25:16 PM EDT
As a practical consideration, keep a pistol lower handy for these sort of things if you can afford to. When I build my 14.5" with a pinned/welded comp, I had it in pieces in a box with a pistol lower for about as much time as it took to drive it to my gunsmith and drop it off. It is an overreaction to an improbable legal entanglement? Yup. Do I want to comply with the rules to the best of my ability and maintain my credibility if asked? You bet. Another option is to just have the barrel and comp sent to your gunsmith directly.

Final thought - I love my pinned/welded 14.5". It's an Aero Precision build with the barrel running under a 15" handguard and the comp is a Spike's Barking Spider 2. The gun is mated with a collapsible NEA Stock and shrinks up to very-near as short as my 10.5" SBR. You'll love it.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 6:45:09 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HammerHammer:
IANAL, but if it isn't attached to a rifle lower AND you truly don't intend to attach it to a rifle lower prior to pinning-on a muzzle device for an OAL of >16", then I don't see where a crime is being committed. I'm not sure by your post whether you're trying to see how far you can push your luck, or you're just truly curious and still plan on playing it safe. I'd err on the side of caution.

You can certainly have a 14.5 or 14.7 barrel with nothing attached and be legally OK. It would stand to reason that anyone who ever pinned-on a muzzle device to a 14.5" barrel to make it a >16" rifle barrel did at one time have a short barrel in their possession- presumably without having ever made an actual SBR. Also, you'd never get your gas block or barrel nut on if you pinned the muzzle device first... So it's actually necessary to pin it on as one of the last steps of the build.
View Quote


Unless they built a complete 14.5" upper separately from their lower and then mated them after pinning.

Possessing the two separately doesn't constitute an SBR or intent.

US vs Thompson Center ruled that in the case of SBRs the intent clause or possessing the parts does not make an SBR.

In the verbiage of Title 18, Part 1, Chap 44 921 does not specifically refer to merely owning parts or address "intent" regarding SBRs or SBSs.



Link Posted: 4/28/2015 6:47:16 PM EDT
lol

you can have a <16 inch upper you just better have a legal lower for it to mate with.

If you have a 7 inch pistol lower and a rifle you can have as many different sized uppers as you want.
if you have 2 stocked lowers you better not have anything shorter than 16.

the key is you have to be able to legally build it.

I've heard having a "other" lowers with stocks attached and a pistol buffer tube is kosher.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 6:48:17 PM EDT
I know it's always posted but it's really sad we have to worry about going to jail for a barrel that's 1.5" too short.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 6:51:25 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MI_FZ6:
I know it's always posted but it's really sad we have to worry about going to jail for a barrel that's 1.5" too short.
View Quote

I posted some simple rules in another similar thread.

Something to the tune of
1. You know the law...so don't break it
2. Don't say shit, and just get it pinned.
3. Refer to rule #1
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 7:05:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2015 7:12:13 PM EDT by stickfigure]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TheNamelessOne:
lol

you can have a <16 inch upper you just better have a legal lower for it to mate with.

If you have a 7 inch pistol lower and a rifle you can have as many different sized uppers as you want.
if you have 2 stocked lowers you better not have anything shorter than 16.

the key is you have to be able to legally build it.

I've heard having a "other" lowers with stocks attached and a pistol buffer tube is kosher.
View Quote


Umm, No.

He can possess all the stocked lowers and short barreled uppers he wants. He just can't mate them.

Case law has already been established over this regarding the TC Encore kit.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=504&invol=505



Link Posted: 4/28/2015 7:10:15 PM EDT
I wouldn't mess with it unless you just want a 14.5. There shouldn't be more than a few inches difference in trajectory at distances far enough not to matter anyway.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 7:11:14 PM EDT
My understanding is that a barrel isn't a firearms. The firearm requires the background check and paperwork. A barrel is just a piece of metal. Now if you assemble that barrel to an upper and attach it to lower that is when it becomes a firearm.
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 10:11:37 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By stickfigure:


Umm, No.

He can possess all the stocked lowers and short barreled uppers he wants. He just can't mate them.

Case law has already been established over this regarding the TC Encore kit.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=504&invol=505

http://outyourbackdoor.com/images/articles/141006_tc.encore.jpg

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By stickfigure:
Originally Posted By TheNamelessOne:
lol

you can have a <16 inch upper you just better have a legal lower for it to mate with.

If you have a 7 inch pistol lower and a rifle you can have as many different sized uppers as you want.
if you have 2 stocked lowers you better not have anything shorter than 16.

the key is you have to be able to legally build it.

I've heard having a "other" lowers with stocks attached and a pistol buffer tube is kosher.


Umm, No.

He can possess all the stocked lowers and short barreled uppers he wants. He just can't mate them.

Case law has already been established over this regarding the TC Encore kit.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=504&invol=505

http://outyourbackdoor.com/images/articles/141006_tc.encore.jpg



umm, yes

the TC set was as you see a pistol, stock and rifle barrel.

from your link.

Here, however, we are not dealing with an aggregation of parts that can serve no useful purpose except the assembly [504 U.S. 505, 513] of a firearm, or with an aggregation having no ostensible utility except to convert a gun into such a weapon. There is, to be sure, one resemblance to the latter example in the sale of the Contender with the converter kit, for packaging the two has no apparent object except to convert the pistol into something else at some point. But the resemblance ends with the fact that the unregulated Contender pistol can be converted not only into a short-barreled rifle, which is a regulated firearm, but also into a long-barreled rifle, which is not. The packaging of pistol and kit has an obvious utility for those who want both a pistol and a regular rifle, and the question is whether the mere possibility of their use to assemble a regulated firearm is enough to place their combined packaging within the scope of "making" one. 6
Link Posted: 4/28/2015 10:14:09 PM EDT
People have been busted for having a pistol with an unattached stock.

I remember a Craigslist ad a long time ago where the ATF stung a guy for selling an HK MP5 clone pistol and a stock (separate but in the same PDW case) for intent to construct
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 7:48:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2015 7:55:11 PM EDT by stickfigure]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TheNamelessOne:


umm, yes

the TC set was as you see a pistol, stock and rifle barrel.

from your link.

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TheNamelessOne:
Originally Posted By stickfigure:
Originally Posted By TheNamelessOne:
lol

you can have a <16 inch upper you just better have a legal lower for it to mate with.

If you have a 7 inch pistol lower and a rifle you can have as many different sized uppers as you want.
if you have 2 stocked lowers you better not have anything shorter than 16.

the key is you have to be able to legally build it.

I've heard having a "other" lowers with stocks attached and a pistol buffer tube is kosher.


Umm, No.

He can possess all the stocked lowers and short barreled uppers he wants. He just can't mate them.

Case law has already been established over this regarding the TC Encore kit.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=504&invol=505

http://outyourbackdoor.com/images/articles/141006_tc.encore.jpg



umm, yes

the TC set was as you see a pistol, stock and rifle barrel.

from your link.

Here, however, we are not dealing with an aggregation of parts that can serve no useful purpose except the assembly [504 U.S. 505, 513] of a firearm, or with an aggregation having no ostensible utility except to convert a gun into such a weapon. There is, to be sure, one resemblance to the latter example in the sale of the Contender with the converter kit, for packaging the two has no apparent object except to convert the pistol into something else at some point. But the resemblance ends with the fact that the unregulated Contender pistol can be converted not only into a short-barreled rifle, which is a regulated firearm, but also into a long-barreled rifle, which is not. The packaging of pistol and kit has an obvious utility for those who want both a pistol and a regular rifle, and the question is whether the mere possibility of their use to assemble a regulated firearm is enough to place their combined packaging within the scope of "making" one.6


The TC Encore kit contained 5 barrels three rifle barrels, a muzzle loading barrel, and a 15" pistol barrel. As shown in the picture above.

The case came about as a person could buy all the parts to make an SBR and convert a pistol into a rifle then back to a pistol which at the time the ATF viewed as a no-no.

SCOTUS ruled that possessing all these parts did not constitute "constructive intent" as intent is not represented in the verbiage of the SBR definition. Also not only could an individual possess these parts legally they could also build said weapon into a rifle or pistol at anytime as long as they never constructed an SBR in the process.

In posting part a of the link you obviously didn't reference part b or c.

(b)However, application of the ordinary rules of statutory construction shows that the Act is ambiguous as to whether, given the fact that the Contender can be converted into either an NFA-regulated firearm or an unregulated rifle, the mere possibility of its use with the kit to assemble the former renders their combined packaging "making". Pp. 512-517.

(c) The statutory ambiguity is properly resolved by applying the rule of lenity in respondent's favor. See, e.g., Crandon v. United States, 494 U.S. 152, 168 . Although it is a tax statute that is here construed in a civil setting, the NFA has criminal applications that carry no additional requirement of willfulness. Making a firearm without approval may be subject to criminal sanction, as is possession of, or failure to pay the tax on, an unregistered firearm. Pp. 517-518

The word "firearm" is used as a term of art in the NFA. It means, among other things, "a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. . . ." 5845(a)(3). "The term "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge." 5845(c).

Link Posted: 4/29/2015 7:55:54 PM EDT
it depands on if your house gets raided by the atf. im sure they would argue a short barrelled completed upper was " intent to build" a sbr or something. who knows.

iv wondered about that myself a few times wanting to build a sbr... and was considering buying parts before i had the stamp. id say they barrel alone, not built into a upper would be perfectly legal.... but atf basically makes up their own rules day to day, so pretty much anything is a possible felony with those guys.
Link Posted: 4/29/2015 8:00:50 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By buck19delta:
it depands on if your house gets raided by the atf. im sure they would argue a short barrelled completed upper was " intent to build" a sbr or something. who knows.

iv wondered about that myself a few times wanting to build a sbr... and was considering buying parts before i had the stamp. id say they barrel alone, not built into a upper would be perfectly legal.... but atf basically makes up their own rules day to day, so pretty much anything is a possible felony with those guys.
View Quote


You have the language of the law and case law on your side "constructive intent" does not apply to SBRs.

Link Posted: 4/29/2015 8:02:06 PM EDT
Constructive intent does not apply to NFA it is constructive possession. Technically speaking if you have parts you need a possible legal configuration.


Link Posted: 4/29/2015 8:18:37 PM EDT
atf ruling
Read the held and held further at the end
Top Top