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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/6/2002 9:23:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2002 7:35:43 AM EDT by KBaker]
I received the following e-mail today:
Firearms Action Committee - Tucson P.O. Box 27321 Tucson, Arizona 85726 http://www.azfact.org August 5, 2002 From the desk of Ken Rineer, President Firearms Action Committee, Tucson IMMEDIATE ACTION REQUESTED: The sale of Ben Avery to Del Webb The Arizona Game & Fish Department is considering an offer from Del Webb to sell off the Ben Avery Range at $100K per acre, or at least portions of it. To avoid massive crowds of Phoenix-area shooters spoiling their plans, Game & Fish has scheduled the meeting in Flagstaff. The meeting will be held at the Woodlands Radisson Hotel, 1175 West Route 66, Flagstaff, AZ at 9am on Friday August 9th. There's a large agenda and they may want to go into executive session when they discuss the economic development of Ben Avery Range. (Which in my view would be a violation of the Open Meeting Law) What do you need to do? Be there yourself if you can or at the very least, contact every shooter & hunter you know in the Flagstaff area so they can go and show up in mass. Contact for the Arizona Department of Game and Fish is as follows: GAME AND FISH, DEPT. OF 2221 W. Greenway Road Phoenix, Arizona 85023-4399 Information 602)942-3000 FAX Number (Director's Office) (602) 789-3299 Duane L. Shroufe, Director (602) 789-3278 Steve Ferrell, Agency Ombudsman (602) 789-3276 Region I 2878 E. White Mountain Blvd. Pinetop, Arizona 85935 (928) 367-4281 Region II 3500 S. Lake Mary Rd. Flagstaff, Arizona 86001-9342 (928) 774-5045 Region III 5325 N. Stockton Hill Rd. Kingman, Arizona 86401-5499 (928) 692-7700 Region IV 9140 E. County 10 1/2 St. Yuma, Arizona 85365-3596 (928) 342-0091 Region V 555 N. Greasewood Tucson, Arizona 85745-3612 (520) 628-5376 Region VI 7200 E. University Mesa, Arizona 85207-6502 (480) 981-9400 Human Resources Office (602) 789-3326 Rules Office (602) 789-3289
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Link Posted: 8/6/2002 1:08:03 PM EDT
BTT Thanks [b]KBaker[/b]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 1:23:00 PM EDT
Isn't this Game and Fish Dept beholden to the people? So, a show "by the People" in numbers AGAINST a proposed action would be a good indicator of what the Dept. should do, no? Great way to subvert the system. Don't like what your boss (the people) have to say? Just do business behind their backs.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 1:31:53 PM EDT
Thanks for the info.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 1:43:44 PM EDT
OK, all you young folks it's time you picked your fights & this looks like one you better pay attention to...... i done my fighting 40+ years ago & i am tired, i sometimes think i (& all the other old tymers)lost my (our) battle with the libs & gun grabbers.., they seem to have won most of their battles because certain people on our side caved in & allowed them one little win at a time, now look what idiotic laws are on the books..., not to mention all the hundreds of shooting ranges that have been shut down across this nation...... how many little boys will grow up not knowing the thrill of playing "Cowboys & Indians" with real steel cap guns & wooden bows & arrows, the loss of this era of childhood is a result of "De-Gunning America" by the socialists...... MONEY is going to win out in this case, it always does......
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 2:53:23 PM EDT
Well that was dumb of them. Now instead of just being yelled at, they are going to be sued for holding the meeting out of the area.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 3:01:17 PM EDT
Is there just NOT enough f@cking open desert out there for Del Webb to build on? Isn't there a prison right out there too? Who's going to want to develop right next to a prison?
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 3:19:40 PM EDT
So go stop him. Del and Audra Webb, 2301 E University Dr, Mesa, AZ 85213 (480) 733-8713,
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 3:34:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By McUZI: So go stop him. Del and Audra Webb, 2301 E University Dr, Mesa, AZ 85213 (480) 733-8713,
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"Go stop him?" What are you suggesting, McU? Mail him a polite "cease and desist" letter? Or ANFO? Hmmm? Inquiring minds want to know.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 3:39:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KBaker: "Go stop him?" What are you suggesting, McU? Mail him a polite "cease and desist" letter? Or ANFO? Hmmm? Inquiring minds want to know.
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I don't care if you mail him a nasty letter. I don't care if you barrage him with nasty phone calls. I don't care if you knock on his door and demand he stop. There's all the information you need to effect change. How you use it is up to you.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 3:40:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KBaker:
Originally Posted By McUZI: So go stop him. Del and Audra Webb, 2301 E University Dr, Mesa, AZ 85213 (480) 733-8713,
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"Go stop him?" What are you suggesting, McU? Mail him a polite "cease and desist" letter? Or ANFO? Hmmm? Inquiring minds want to know.
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Well first you get the dog poop and put it in a paper bag... [:D]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 3:45:28 PM EDT
OK, I just got off the phone with Mr.G&F representative. He says there will be no vote on this issue at this time and that the sale of the property to del webb is only one of a couple of possible plans for Ben Avery. Two other plans he mentioned are, using the land for an off road recreation area and selling/leasing the land for other purposes. He said that they are leaning towards moving Ben Averey further north to get away from the city area and possible complaints and lawsuits. So basically, they are trying to keep this as low profile as possible to avoid the hassles and are probably going to move the range because the FUCKING SNOWBIRDS and KALI TRANSPLANTS and BACK EAST RETIRING YUPPIES move out here and bitch cuz they don't like guns. The same thing happened to the Tucson Rod and Gun Club, it had been at it's location since the early 60's and then when the FUCKING SNOWBIRDS and KALI TRANSPLANTS and BACK EAST RETIRING YUPPIES moved in around it (they were all told of the ranges existance BEFORE they bought their houses) the city, county and state all agreed to shut it down because of the POSSIBILITY of a stray bullet. In the entire time it was there, there had been no reported instances that could be sited to back up their claims. The TRaGC tried to work out an agreement, they offered numerous plans and design changes to eliminate any POSSIBLE threat of a ricochet or other problem. But, alas, good ole' oscar and mildred said they could still hear the occasional shot go off from their patio behind the house THAT THEY KNOWINGLY BOUGHT NEXT TO A GUN RANGE!!! It's all over but the crying, this situation will continue untill they get rid of all the gun ranges. [pissed][pissed][pissed][pissed]
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 4:17:32 PM EDT
The Tucson Rifle Club just recently successfully managed to keep the Supervisors from rezoning the land across the road from 1 home per 4.4 acres to high density so a (multiple expletive deleted) developer (but I repeat myself) could put in a [i]golf community[/i] on the land, along with [i]condominiums[/i]. I'm sure the new neighbors would have had no objections to listening to .50 caliber fire from the 1,000 yard range, or automatic fire from the action range while teeing up. Of course not. TRC is [i][b]35 miles[/i][/b] outside of Tucson! How far out do you have to build?
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 4:37:36 PM EDT
So, Not to flame any of our AZ brethern, but now you see that it is not just the PRK. This crap is everywhere there are liberal morons, and they are everywhere. After all, they run the schools and universities and are turning out good little socialists by the millions every year. Time to see what all of the "get out of California" people do now? Time to organize, and get active. This just proves that we have to fight the fight as hard as we can wherever we are. We cannot run, and we cannot continue to blame looney left coasters for everything. After all, what has the esteemed Senator from AZ been up to lately? Anyone paying attention? Who elected him anyway? Ray
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 4:40:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 240z: After all, what has the esteemed Senator from AZ been up to lately? Who elected him anyway?
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Charles Keating, another Mega-Land Developer here.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 4:47:36 PM EDT
that sucks...i love BA. very nice range and a bunch of helpful range officers there. ill write and call and hope that helps.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 9:10:36 PM EDT
This is not just an Arizona issue. Ben Avery sets an example for the entire country on what a nice range is. I feel for you all, I moved to Florida and miss that range. By the way its to dam far north now, I think you could relocate it to the Salt river gravel pits right next to the airport, plenty of shooting in those neborhood anyway. That way I could fly in go to the SAR gunshow and the range in one nice visit.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 7:35:09 AM EDT
UPDATE: New e-mail this morning:
From the desk of Ken Rineer, President This is an update to yesterdays message concerning Ben Avery Shooting Range. Please distribute to your list(s). I talked to an individual from the Game and Fish Commission today concerning the possible sale of Ben Avery. The conversation was an interesting one and the individual I spoke to stated that the rukus over Ben Avery being sold is blown way out of proportion. According to the individual I spoke with, the Commission has been trying to convince the Department of Game and Fish that federal tax dollars on surcharges on shooting items (Pittman/Robertson) are being spent but shooters are getting nothing in return. The Commission wants to build more shooting ranges. Flagstaff was not mentioned other than as one of the four areas where they want to build ranges, but I have it on good authority that Flagstaff is a high priority. Now, after studies, there is a possibility of 4 shooting ranges being built (Phoenix, Tucson, Flagstaff & Bullhead City) but there are no monies. Hmm, what about the monies received each year? Now the dilemma for the Commission. The Dept. of Game & Fish says okay, we have your plan, now where's the money? The Commissioner stated they have investors offering to buy all or part of Ben Avery. One figure mentioned was $99,000,000. The Commissioner saw an opportunity and commissioned a consulting firm to find out the "highest best use." The highest best use? Sell all of Ben Avery. Why? In 5-10 years, Phoenix will have grown to the borders of the range. I do not buy this argument. The land for Ben Avery was deeded to Game and Fish for the purpose of a shooting range. F.A.C.T. will support no other use. In Tucson, we have experience with Departments closing shooting ranges (U.S. Forest Service closed Tucson Rod & Gun Club in Sabino Canyon over 5 years ago). We also experienced the promise of a new range being built by Pima county. Monies were even approved by voters in a bond election. The promise to build a new range was never fulfilled. No matter where someone wants to build a range, there are NIMBYs (Not In My Backyard) to oppose its construction. If you do not think this will not affect you, please rethink that. Ranges are under constant assault. The one near you could be next. WHAT DO YOU NEED TO DO? 1. Show up if you can. 2. Make sure you fill out a speakers card (no card, no speak). 3. Make yourself a small sign to hold up with the words: NO RFP, NO LEASE, NO SALE WHERE WILL THE MEETING BE HELD? The meeting will be held at the Woodlands Radisson Hotel, 1175 West Route 66, Flagstaff, AZ at 9am on Friday August 9th. We already know that the possible sale or lease of the portion in question WILL CLOSE THE 1000 YARD RANGE! It is imperative the Game and Fish Commission gets the message loud and clear. And that message is LEAVE BEN AVERY ALONE! NO RFP'S, NO LEASES AND NO SALES of the land deeded for the special use of a shooting range. If you have not called the Director of Game and Fish yet, please do.
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Link Posted: 8/7/2002 11:21:25 AM EDT
More info: [url=www.asrpa.com/8-3-02%20BASF%20Commission%20Contact.htm]Arizona State Rifle and Pistol Assoc.[/url] and [url=www.flagstaffoutdoors.net/BASF/BASF.html]Arizona Game & Fish Meeting Minutes[/url] Step 1: Eliminate the 1,000 yard shooting position (600 yard max.) Please get involved.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 11:50:17 AM EDT
Just one question for you guys to ask the developers that ought to pucker up the developers behind, " what are you going to do with all the lead that is ALL OVER the range"? watch them run for the doors. The cost of reclaiming the place should give them pause.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 12:15:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By peregrine: Just one question for you guys to ask the developers that ought to pucker up the developers behind, " what are you going to do with all the lead that is ALL OVER the range"? watch them run for the doors. The cost of reclaiming the place should give them pause.
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Yea, and doom the range as well !!! That was one of the arguments used to shut down one of our locals ranges.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 12:34:35 PM EDT
Lets organize a protest. We can make signs and stage a demonstration just like the libs do. We'll go to that address in Tempe that Mcuzi posted and we'll make waves...we'll call in the newstations and newspapers. Whos with me? This weekend! Lets DO IT!!!!
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 12:42:52 PM EDT
Spectre, i realy don't see how they could use this(the lead contamination issue) to shut down a range in Arizona--if the range is already there or they can show a compelling case of harm to neighbors. The problem only comes when you want to build dwellings on the contaminated soil. To be sure, lead is a reasonably potent contaminant of soil, especialy if children may end up playing on it. Taht soild is best left to it's current use--a gun range.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 12:53:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By peregrine: Spectre, i realy don't see how they could use this(the lead contamination issue) to shut down a range in Arizona--if the range is already there or they can show a compelling case of harm to neighbors. The problem only comes when you want to build dwellings on the contaminated soil. To be sure, lead is a reasonably potent contaminant of soil, especialy if children may end up playing on it. Taht soild is best left to it's current use--a gun range.
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Peregrine, two words, "water table" and the fact that when soccer moms hear "lead poisoning" they go nuts. As I said, lead issues were just one of several things the antis used here, bottom line, range closed. satcong, great idea, problem is, unlike the fricken unwashed hippie liberal scumbags, most of us HAVE JOBS !!! which can often prevent us from taking time to do such things. I do all I can, but can't do it all.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 12:54:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KBaker: UPDATE: The Commissioner stated they have investors offering to buy all or part of Ben Avery. One figure mentioned was $99,000,000.
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Is it made out of gold? Fight this you guys. If they take yours in AZ, they can take mine in PA.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 2:19:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2002 2:22:18 PM EDT by McUZI]
BTT- You assjoles in Arizona better stop this shit. AZ is like Gun and Shooting Mecca. If they can screw you guys, they can screw us all. BA was the first place I went last time I was out there. I'll call whoever I can.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 2:45:55 PM EDT
With the kind of money they are offering this is a done deal. Within 10 minuets drive you can buy all the land you want for a shooting range at 1/10 the price. I would say go ahead and sell it if part of the proceeds will go towards buying the land and an even building a bigger and better range. I know I’m goanna get flamed big time for this but the state needs the money and they are going to sell. The only question is, is what is the shooting public going to get out of it. THISISME
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 2:55:48 PM EDT
[b]GAWD A'MIGHTY.....!!![/b] i wish i could help..., i advocated sportmans & gun clubs buy their own land many years ago, but no !! the resistance said, "...this is rent/cost free, why should we go into debt..." well, now all the National Forrest lands, F&G lands & any other publicly owned land is going to ban shooting ranges....., need i repeat [b]LIBERALS[/b] here ?? need i remind you of the [b]TREE HUGGERS[/b] ?? the "ECO TERRORISTS" will win eventually...... one other gentle reminder, remember when they said, [B]"PLEASE...., WE ONLY WANT YOU TO STOP SMOKING ON AIRPLANES...."[/B] we need more privately owned ranges, support your localy owned private range.......!!! need i say more ??
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 3:03:23 PM EDT
Here's one 'lib" who'll be at that meeting to protest. Lib-15
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 3:04:20 PM EDT
Nothing stands in the way of Money Grubbing Developers, NOT EVEN GOD!
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 1:55:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2002 2:04:07 PM EDT by The_Macallan]
[b][url=http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0808benavery0808.html]State has no plan to sell shooting range[/url][/b] The Arizona Republic Aug. 08, 2002 Valley gun enthusiasts are enraged over what they perceive as signs that parts, or all, of the Ben Avery Shooting Facility in north Phoenix are about to be sold. But state Game and Fish Department officials say the gun aficionados' aim is off. Any development on the 1,650-acre facility will have to be compatible with the range, and if the time ever comes to relocate the range, it wouldn't be for at least another 20 years, they say. The gun crowd became alarmed after the June Game and Fish Commission meeting in which discussions about shooting range economic development opportunities included relocating the Ben Avery facility. In those discussions, the value of the land was pegged at apotential $100,000 an acre in five to 10 years. But the department sent out a press release Wednesday quelling rumors of a sale. "I can put the rumors to rest," wrote department Director Duane Shroufe. [b]"No, we have no offers, and we are not considering selling the Ben Avery Shooting Facility. Period." The commission is considering issuing a request for proposal for 130 acres along the Carefree Highway corridor, though department spokesman Rory Aikens says that [u]any proposal must be compatible with the range and work as a buffer[/u]. [/b]And no decisions will be made without ample public comment, he added. Aikens added that the commission is considering several alternatives for the next 20 years. The Game and Fish Commission plans to meet at 9 a.m. Friday at the Radisson Woodlands Hotel, 1175 W. U.S. 66 in Flagstaff. Though the commission may go into a closed executive session, [b]Aikens said the shooting facility issue will be discussed in the open.[/b] Landis Aden, legislative liaison for the 1,500-member Arizona State Rifle and Pistol Association, calls the Ben Avery facility the premier shooting range in the country. Any development around the shooting facility must complement the range, Aden said. He also believes that the range should remain where it is regardless of future encroaching development. "How much farther out can it go?" he asked. "We will run out of places. [b]"Instead of closing things down and moving them, it's time to coexist with each other."[/b] --------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------- [b]KBaker[/b], Based on your most recent letter you posted in this thread, do ya' think this news report is just a bit of misinformation to get people to NOT show up at the meeting or is there really just a "failure to communicate" and Avery really isn't for sale?
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 4:13:05 PM EDT
The latter. I think G&F has backed off their previous position from the uproar it has caused, but that doesn't mean they won't try to sneak it in later. Follow the money. $100,000 an acre? I can see a developer lining some pockets, can't you?
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