Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 10/19/2004 4:29:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:16:31 PM EST
Don't know where this post is supposed to go, so here goes....
As much as I shoot, I chose a Glock 26 for the price of rounds compared to the .40.
147gr Golden Saber does quite a bit of damage, and it's out of such a nice little pistol. Less recoil, nice tight, fast groups,ect.
My wife has a .40 Sig and is getting a mid-size Glock in 9mm for christmas. In her case a .40 is just too much.
Let the "one shot, one kill" commando's begin their attack.....
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:31:59 PM EST
no attack here but I do have the glock 27 and for me it shoots great but a finger extension is needed for strudy handling. very accurate, and that counts more than the size of the bullet. But always remember what Jeff Cooper says, if going to a pistol fight, make sure your caliber begins with a 4.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:34:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:36:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 5:37:25 PM EST by Amicus]



+ 37,026

This debate seems to go on and on and on. Can't we tack a few for future reference?
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:37:00 PM EST
I can solve this take one gun of each shoot yourself in the leg and let us know .My 9mm holds 15 rounds, after 135 mm's of lead you are dead any one will do
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:37:53 PM EST
A couple of either in the lungs don't really make a difference.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:38:14 PM EST
The 9mm bullet that you're holding will penetrate more then the 40 because of it's BC. Neither will drop an Elephant in it's track so if I'm going with a handgun, all of which suck compared to a rifle round, let me have something that'll give me the most rounds in the mag, is the easiest to shoot and is the most available round on the planet, let me have a 9mm. The 9mm has killed more people then just about any other handgun/sub-gun round in history. Like it or not, it's been around since 1902 and it's still going strong. Only other round that comes close is the ol' .38Spl.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:40:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By mpearcex:
nBut always remember what Jeff Cooper says, if going to a pistol fight, make sure your caliber begins with a 4.





Tell that to all of the people who have died of gunshot wounds from 9mm, .38 Special, .380, .357 SIG or .357 Magnum
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:48:43 PM EST
.40 is a crappy comprimise round.

It's that simple.

If you can't handle a real 10mm gun, then get a 9mm.

That or get a .45.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:49:32 PM EST
I've heard the 9mm is a better round than the .40 Short & Weak.

(Let's see if any fishey bites on that one!)
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:50:28 PM EST
I heard Airsoft is just as effective, and much cheaper.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:50:56 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:51:13 PM EST
Billy bobs cousins brother once told me a 40 can blast through bullet proof glass and steel but the 9mm cant
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:59:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By gotm4:
img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg


Neat pics, I wish you could show one with FMJ's
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 6:07:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By Silver_Surfer:

Originally Posted By gotm4:
img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg


Neat pics, I wish you could show one with FMJ's



I agree. Nice addition, GotM4.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 6:13:57 PM EST
Whats with them lips.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 6:23:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 6:24:42 PM EST by Zionist]

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Whats with them lips.



Link Posted: 10/19/2004 6:39:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 6:40:43 PM EST by geish]

Originally Posted By gotm4:
img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg



Well, that concludes the arguement. From the picture, it looks to me like the .357 SIG is equivalent to the .45ACP or even more superior.

You hear that .45ACP lovers?
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 6:41:30 PM EST
i wouldn't want to get hit by either of them
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 7:13:45 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 12:25:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 12:28:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 12:34:23 AM EST
Hasn't there been some complaints from our troops in the mid east that the 9mm isnt doing the job?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 12:40:11 AM EST
Personally in a life-or-death situation I know I'd rather have the capacity advantages of 9mm, or ideally 5.7mm...The Five seveN has 20 round in a flush fit magazine, seems like the best defensive choice I can think of for hand guns other then 9mm.

Okay....flame away
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 12:50:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 12:51:08 AM EST by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 12:51:48 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 1:32:22 AM EST
Bigger bullet = more mass = more nervous system shock = faster "knock down".

Bigger hole = faster bleedout = faster death.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 2:28:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By Guntoter:
Hasn't there been some complaints from our troops in the mid east that the 9mm isnt doing the job?



Yep 9mm ball is a good penetrator but it's a poor stopper. Yes you'll bleed out eventually but much of the time you're just gonna put a 9mm hole is someone. A .45 using ball isn't really a much better stopper than 9mm. One of the things that gelatin doesn't show is how fast a particular load produces a stop. I don't think many of the so-called ballistic experts actually study this from real world gunfights. From what I hear the .357SIG and .45ACP produce the fastest stops. A stop does not always mean death but that the gun fight ended. A handgun is really a poor stopper regardless of caliber. If I knew I'm going into a gunfight a rifle or shotgun would be my first choice.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 2:28:43 AM EST


Link Posted: 10/20/2004 2:46:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By Hoppy:
Bigger bullet = more mass = more nervous system shock = faster "knock down".

Bigger hole = faster bleedout = faster death.



Doesn't .357 Magnum out perform, or at a minimum, equal .45 ACP in real world shootings?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:16:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By SorryOciffer:
weasel.faricy.net/funny/hasselhoff.jpg




Link Posted: 10/20/2004 4:15:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By jvic:

Originally Posted By Hoppy:
Bigger bullet = more mass = more nervous system shock = faster "knock down".

Bigger hole = faster bleedout = faster death.



Doesn't .357 Magnum out perform, or at a minimum, equal .45 ACP in real world shootings?




The study found that the .357 Magnum was number one in one shot stops. This data was gathered from street shootings and at the time most police carried the .357 revolver. Now that most police officers carry 9's, 40's and 45's the numbers may show a different outcome.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 4:35:46 AM EST
The .357 is pretty potent, wait until DonS comes by to tell us that the .357 and 9mm are equal.


Personally I'd rather not get shot with anything more powerful than a water gun.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 4:39:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 4:40:34 AM EST by jvic]
Part of the reason I chose .357 Sig for my carry gun is it's similarities with .357 mag performance. I would probably go with .40 today, but back then they were both fairly new calibers with limited ammo selection.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 4:43:58 AM EST
With the progression of ammo development, the 9mm isn't that far behind the rest in perfomance specs. I don't worry carrying 15 rounds of Cor Bon 115.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 4:45:00 AM EST
originally posted by TNFrank;
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 9mm bullet that you're holding will penetrate more then the 40 because of it's BC. Neither will drop an Elephant in it's track so if I'm going with a handgun, all of which suck compared to a rifle round, let me have something that'll give me the most rounds in the mag, is the easiest to shoot and is the most available round on the planet, let me have a 9mm. The 9mm has killed more people then just about any other handgun/sub-gun round in history. Like it or not, it's been around since 1902 and it's still going strong. Only other round that comes close is the ol' .38Spl.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I heard and tend to believe that except for actual war the .22 rf has killed more people than any other round. all be it not one shot stoppers but dead non the less. is this just an urban myth?

in war I don't know what round would be the biggest killer (probably .30 cal) but I do believe 9mm is up there somewhere.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:02:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By stormwalker:
originally posted by TNFrank;
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 9mm bullet that you're holding will penetrate more then the 40 because of it's BC. Neither will drop an Elephant in it's track so if I'm going with a handgun, all of which suck compared to a rifle round, let me have something that'll give me the most rounds in the mag, is the easiest to shoot and is the most available round on the planet, let me have a 9mm. The 9mm has killed more people then just about any other handgun/sub-gun round in history. Like it or not, it's been around since 1902 and it's still going strong. Only other round that comes close is the ol' .38Spl.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I heard and tend to believe that except for actual war the .22 rf has killed more people than any other round. all be it not one shot stoppers but dead non the less. is this just an urban myth?

in war I don't know what round would be the biggest killer (probably .30 cal) but I do believe 9mm is up there somewhere.



England,Canada,Germany, Italy plus many others used the 9mm in WWII in both handguns and sub-guns. Now we even use it in the M-9 and M-11 plus in the MP5. I've never heard that about the .22 but I'd be willing to bet that it's killed more small game then any other round and probably has more rounds expended each year then any other caliber. As far as the 9mm's effectiveness with ball ammo, NO handgun round is effective with ball ammo, not even the 45ACP. With ball the 45 will log about a 65% one shot stop percentage. Not very good in my book. About the very best that you can do is a 125gr.,.357Mag out of a 6" bbl, then you'll get somewhere in the high 90's(97-98%) which is just about as perfect as you'd want. 9x19mm with proper ammo will get you in the low 90's(92-93%) which isn't too bad in my book.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:06:09 AM EST
The .22 LR has probably killed more deer than the venerable 30-30. It is also under rated as a round. Sure it's not a mag, it's not even big, but it's killed more people that you'd believe.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:23:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Whats with them lips.



If you lean your head to the left and look at the picture it looks even better.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:55:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 6:33:36 AM EST by napalm]

Originally Posted By mpearcex:
no attack here but I do have the glock 27 and for me it shoots great but a finger extension is needed for strudy handling. very accurate, and that counts more than the size of the bullet. But always remember what Jeff Cooper says, if going to a pistol fight, make sure your caliber begins with a 4.




What? No 10mm or .357 Magnum?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:59:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By geish:

Originally Posted By gotm4:
img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg



Well, that concludes the arguement. From the picture, it looks to me like the .357 SIG is equivalent to the .45ACP or even more superior.

You hear that .45ACP lovers?





Nah. The .357 SIG is just a crappy compromise round between a 9mm and a .40S&W.

It's that simple.

If you can't handle a real .40S&W gun, then get a 9mm.

That or get a .44 Magnum.






.40 is a crappy comprimise round.

It's that simple.

If you can't handle a real 10mm gun, then get a 9mm.

That or get a .45.

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:07:53 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 10:15:33 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 10:43:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 10:51:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By jvic:
Doesn't .357 Magnum out perform, or at a minimum, equal .45 ACP in real world shootings?



photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=29397


The studies you're referring to are from the early 80s, using data from the 60s and 70s. They're comparing performance from common police loads and calibers of the time, which were:

- .38 Spl 148gr LSWC
- .357 Mag 158gr SJHP
- 9mm 124gr FMJ
- 45 ACP 230gr FMJ

You'll note that the .357 bullet was the ONLY hollowpoint design in common use. It was also the most advanced bullet design of that era, as it was the most commonly used caliber by police.

The most important thing to understand is that this study is absolutely meaningless today. 30+ years of technology, and a sea change in law enforcement away from revolvers and into automatics, has completely changed the playing field. Today, all of the best bullets are designed for auto calibers, revolver versions of these bullets only rarely being made. And modern 4th-Gen hollowpoint designs are excellent performers, having penetration capabilities and expansion reliability that couldn't have been dreamed about 30 years ago.

The facts are that the best 9mm, 357 SIG, and .357 Mag loadings give virtually identical performance, assuming that you aren't using a snubby .357 Mag, which robs much of that performance. While the .357 Mag has vastly superior ability as a hunting round, due to the larger case capacity and ability to use heavier bullets than either of the other two, that means nothing when it comes to combat performance vs. humans.

IMO, if you're going to use .357" bullets, you're much better off with a high-capacity 9mm auto than 5 or 6 rounds in a revolver. And the fact that you have more good load selections in 9mm, as well as lower cost and greater availability, is just icing on the cake.

-Troy



Good info, very true. I'd take a .45 for the stopping power but the capacity of the 9mm is tempting.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 10:53:14 AM EST
Troy,

All I was asking is if .357 mag is at least equal to .45 in real use. I feel that is probably true, even using modern ammo in both guns. I could be wrong...

Let me ask you this. If you had a choice of 9mm or .357 sig with the same number of rounds & same barrel length, which would you choose? Not considering the price of ammo. I personally want the best all around round for defense, and for that, I am willing to ignore ammo cost. I would pay double to get a 5% or 10% increase in performance.

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:05:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Hoppy:

Originally Posted By jvic:

Originally Posted By Hoppy:
Bigger bullet = more mass = more nervous system shock = faster "knock down".

Bigger hole = faster bleedout = faster death.



Doesn't .357 Magnum out perform, or at a minimum, equal .45 ACP in real world shootings?




The study found that the .357 Magnum was number one in one shot stops. This data was gathered from street shootings and at the time most police carried the .357 revolver. Now that most police officers carry 9's, 40's and 45's the numbers may show a different outcome.



The study was an example of junk science. It had multiple problems which rendered any conclusions worthless.

Martin Fackler has shown that the important parameters with handgun ammo are:

1) sufficient penetration

2) larger bullet diameter.

The second can also be achieved via bullet expansion, so modern 9mm JHPs do a better job of .45 FMJs, when they expand. But .45s expand too, so a .45 with JHPs is about as good as it gets in handgun ballistics.

The 9mm, .357 SIG, and .357 Magnum are all about equally effective. Given that, the 9mm is probably the best choice of the three. If we were back in 1970 and JHPs were junk, I'd opt for the .357 using wadcutter or semiwadcutter bullets (or a .44 or .45). Flat nose bullets like wadcutters produce a bigger wound channel than round nose types. According to numbers provided on the Firearms Tactical Institue website, and my number crunching, a .357 with a wadcutter should come real close to .45 RN ball ammo in wound channel diameter . . .

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:08:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 11:09:34 AM EST by DonS]

Originally Posted By jvic:
Troy,

All I was asking is if .357 mag is at least equal to .45 in real use. I feel that is probably true, even using modern ammo in both guns. I could be wrong...



The .45 is better for defense against humans.


Originally Posted By jvic:
Let me ask you this. If you had a choice of 9mm or .357 sig with the same number of rounds & same barrel length, which would you choose? Not considering the price of ammo. I personally want the best all around round for defense, and for that, I am willing to ignore ammo cost. I would pay double to get a 5% or 10% increase in performance.




The 9 is the better choice than the .357 SIG. Same terminal performance, less cost, less noise, less flash, less recoil.

The .357 SIG would be better for long range handgunning, or potentially for hunting, where additional penetration might be useful.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:09:15 AM EST
So, velocity has nothing to do with it? The same diameter/weight bullet traveling at 2 different speeds has no effect?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:13:58 AM EST
And what about penetration through clothing? Still the same?
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top