User Panel
Posted: 12/22/2005 4:37:08 PM EDT
†—9mm Luger +P+ ammunition is loaded on request for special LE application. Pressures are as much as 22 greater than industry standards. Purchasers must be able to affirm that +P+ ammunition is for law enforcement/government use only.
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+1 i get Win Rangers +P+ 9mm from the EE... |
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Because LEOs are the only folks professional enough to handle that much power.
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because they want to kill ur dog with 1 round. mmm sorry couldnt help it. im wacky ya know.
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Still bro...., unless it's now become Speer's corp. policy...a'la Colt etc. Sheep |
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because the LE agency signs a liability waiver to buy it and it might blow up a browning high power or other older designs. The LE agency indemnifies the manufacturer against suit as the injured officer would fall under workmens comp.
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Might not find a dealer who wants to sell it,
but you can always find SOMEONE who has it for sale. http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=287007&highlight=ranger |
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Yeah, that explains what happened to the 10mm lol... |
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RA9TA 9mm +P+ 127g bullet 1250 fps 441 ft*lbs 38 special Silvertip 110g bullet 945 fps 218 ft*lbs 357 mag Silvertip 145g bullet 1290 fps 535 ft*lbs 40 S&W Silvertip 155g bullet 1205 fps 500 ft*lbs 10mm Silvertip 175g bullet 1290 fps 649 ft*lbs Obviously the 9mm +P+ is nothing to sneeze at. I didn't know Winchester was making 500 Magnum ammo. 500 S&W Mag 400g bullet 1800 fps 2877 ft*lbs |
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Yea, because those were designed for submachine guns, and loaded to higher pressures.
(if I remember the explaination correctly) They are not headstamped +P+. |
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Its a CYA measure. When some retard tries to fire it in his ancient Astra blowback and ends up getting f-ed up, he won't have much to stand on legally.
Should be fine in a modern pistol. |
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http://www.georgia-arms.com/shear.htm
9mm GOLD DOT [blah] Ft-lbs ft/sec G9MMF 115gr Hollow Point +P $13.50 $26.50 $260.00 399 1250 G9MMH 124gr Hollow Point +P $13.50 $26.50 $260.00 396 1200 G9MMI 147gr Hollow Point +P $14.00 $27.50 $270.00 359 1050 GMM+P+ 115gr Hollow Point +P+ $15.75 $31.00 $305.00 431 1300 Nickel cased Gold Dot hollow pointy goodness. I carry the 147 grain. Shooting it out of a G19 is very low recoil. |
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Well I don't have a bit of trouble getting it. Have plenty of Federal P9HS3GI 124grLE [+P+]hydrashoks on hand. Cost me about $25 per 50. Also Corbon 115grain running about 1350fps. I do take care to maintain recoil springs and change them out before I normally would.
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Highlighted the dubject matter. |
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I just wish there wasn't so many dud rounds. |
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damn thats all +p+ 9mm can do i will take 9mm+P 115gr Gold Dot JHP at 115gr @ 1415fps / 511ft. lbs. from a G17. www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=119 |
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I have a couple hundred rounds of it.
I carry a 1911 though. Anyone want to trade? |
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copied from here: http://glocktalk.com/sitemap/topic/325761-1.html Dear Mr. McPherson, Please be informed that the respective ammunition has been made according to a specific request for authority uses only. This particular ammunition has never been designed for circulation in civilian circles. We kindly ask you to refrain from using it at all. We trust this is clear and remain Sincerely, Michael Lang Head of Sales Hirtenberger Defence Systems Leobersdorferstrasse 31-33 A-2552 HIRTENBERG Tel. +43(0)2256/81184-306 Fax +43(0)2256/81807 [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Sean McPherson [mailto:HIDDEN] Gesendet: Freitag, 11. Februar 2005 14:59 An: [email protected]; [email protected] Betreff: L7A1 9MM Ammunition Safety Question Hello! I'm trying to determine if ammunition marked L7A1 9MM is safe for use in specific handguns (most definitively, the Glock 17). Glock says any ammunition with the 'cross within a circle' NATO headstamp is safe for use in this weapon; however, I've seen the following report online, and wanted to verify the accuracy of the data contain therein (included below). Is there any way to find out the chamber pressures created by this ammo, as opposed to the Hirtenberger +P+ handgun loads? If the report is valid, is the warning only applicable to rounds manufactured during the specific time period listed (1990-1992)? If so, what is the best way to determine when a box of L7A1 was manufactured? This is a safety concern, as I've seen this ammunition in use in handguns, and want to make sure that I am correct if I tell these shooters it is NOT recommended for use in handguns by the manufacturer. Thanks for any help, Sean McPherson *** Department of the Treasury ATF Office of Public Information For Immediate Release FY-97-6 Contact: Vickie Saunders Date: November 7, 1996 HAZARDOUS AMMUNITION Washington--The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has been advised by Hirtenberger AG, Hirtenberg, Austria, that certain 9Xl9 mm caliber ammunition produced by Hirtenberger is unsafe for use in any handgun. The ammunition, designated L7A1 and produced ln the years 1990 through 1992, was produced for the British Ministry of Defense specifically for use in submachineguns under adverse conditions. The ammunition was loaded to produce pressures far in excess of that intended for use in handguns. The manufacturer advises that up to 12 million rounds of this ammunition has recently been sold on the world surplus market. The ammunition can be identified by the following head stamp located on the bottom of the cartridge case 12 O'clock position: HP 3 O'clock position: 90, 91, or 92 6 O'clock position: L7Al 9 O'clock position: the marking of a cross within a circle This ammunition should not be fired. We are not aware of any of this ammunition being imported into the United States. ATF will take action to prevent the commercial importation of this ammunition. For additional information, contact, Mary Jo Hughes, Chief, Firearms and Explosives Imports, (202) 927-8320. |
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If you buy quality ammo they aren't really needed, but I've bought +P+ and shot it a few times, just because I could.
For example, with 124 gr. Speer Gold Dot 9mm ammo, it's better to use the non-plus ammo with a pistol that has a barrel length of over 4 inches. For 4 or shorter, the plus P is reccomended to get the bullet up to optimal speed. If you use +P SGD in a pistol with a barrel length over 4 inches you could cause the bullet to over expand and not achieve enough penetration. The Remington 115 +P+ round(I have a box and have fired it for fun) has lousy ballistics because it dissintigrates on impact. That little fact isn't apparent when you only look at a rounds speed/ft. lbs. and so on. You need to know what it will do in ballistic jelly. It has terrible penetration because that little round is just moving too fast and it comes apart on impact. You can buy +P+ on the open market. At least I have several times from a few different stores(YMMV). If you are posting this sentiment because you are concerned that you don't have access to good enough ammo, I wouldn't worry. Faster is not always better. |
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You can always push a lighter weight bullet faster. And since the velocity is the major factor of muzzle energy, a itty bitty featherweight bullet can have amazing muzzle energy specs. Would you rather a fleck of dust hit a bad guy at the speed of light, or a brick at the speed of your arm? That doubletap ammo is wicked fast, but too light weight to be as good of a choice as others. I think somone proved it has a tendency to break up too quickly, and not give good penetration. |
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Light primer strikes? I have found the ammo to be very reliable out of my semi-auto Uzi. Not a single FTF. Even in the Uzi it is very 'snappy'. If you shoot WWB then Hirt you really see the difference. |
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OMG!!! That's a good one! No flame to you shotar, but I have personally seen 2 instances where "agencies" were asked to sign "hold harmless agreements" regarding use of LEO restricted equipment that resulted in injuries to officers. IN BOTH CASES the work comp carrier SUBROGATED the claims back against the equipment manufacturers (one of them was Ford Motor Co) and BOTH times the comp carriers won full awards. Even a LEO agency cannot sign away another party's right (their insurance company's right( to reclaim damages. Edited to add: That doesn't even count what the FOP attorneys did to the manufacturers as Third Party Tortfeasors. The officers also won personal awards although the comp insurers retain rights to first subrogation. Again, no flame to you but if that is the excuse the manufacturer is using NOT to sell the equipment, they are lying through their teeth. |
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how is their 147 gr rnd better or should i look into the 124gr rnd. it would be for a glock 17. |
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For a G17, if you get Speer Gold Dot 124gr. ammo, don't get the +P at all. It is designed to have maximum performance at a specific velocity, and out of a barrel as long as the G17 there is a risk that it will over expand, and under penetrate. I use SGD +P in my G19 but not my G17 for that reason. It's really excellent ammo and I trust my life with it. |
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Exactly. You see, we live in a world of morons, who already "know everything", and they "know" that no factory 9mm round would be harmful in their handgun, even if it is an ancient design that is marked "do not exceed 35,000 psi" right on it. Such morons would blow up their pot metal gun, and then decide that they won the lawsuit lottery and would try to sue their way into an Escalade with 26" rims and bass. Manufacturers generally prefer that their "beyond SAAMI pressure" rounds be limited to people who will only use this ammo in guns that can handle it, and will sign a waiver attesting to that fact and that they will not hold the manufacturer responsible for damage or extra wear to their guns. Because collecting such waivers from individuals would be an administrative nightmare, they prefer not to sell it that way. Of course, anyone with any kind of commitment can get the ammo if they really want it, but that helps filter out the bulk of the morons, who will give up when they have to do a little work and will buy a Walmart bulkpack instead. -Troy |
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That too. |
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ty for the info so get standard Speer Gold Dot 124gr. ammo for the the 17 and for the 19 which i want to get soon as finances shake out use +p correct.i am getting my ccw some time this year comming up my town is getting worse as time goes by. |
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A lot of people have done a lot of tests. So you can read everyone's opinions, or you can read about the tests. Or do both. I researched a lot of reviews, a lot of tests, a lot of opinions. Some tests done at a professional level, others at a back yard "wet phonebook" level. While some people will state their preference for one type over another, the concensus is that the two best rounds available for 9mm are the 147g Winchester Ranger RA9T and the 127g Winchester Ranger RA9TA +P+. The deciding factor being whether you want to shoot hotter rounds in your gun. (more wear and tear, shorter gun life, more risk of explosion from using hotter rounds) I'm not stating that these are the best. But overall, on the average, they get higher marks than any other bullet in a variety of tests. A lot of people swear by the Speer Gold Dot bullets. They are damn good bullets. And a lot of manufacturers load them. But the last time I checked, they were usually favored second to the Winchester. Personally, I prefer the RA9TA. It is 14% lighter in weight, but 26% faster. More momentum, more energy, and it still holds together and gives good penetration. |
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For G17 or G19, your best loads are in the 147gr range (and all are standard pressure):
Winchester Ranger T (RA9T) Speer Gold Dot Federal HST For the G26, or any 9mm with a barrel shorter than 4", the best loads are 124-127gr +P loads: Winchester Ranger T (127gr +P+) Speer Gold Dot (124gr +P) Federal HST (124gr +P+) The extra velocity gained from the higher pressure load helps compensate for the shorter barrel, and testing has shown improved performance compared to the 147gr or standard-pressure 124gr ammo from these shorter-barreled pistols. The standard 124gr loads are still pretty good loads from guns with 4" or longer barrels, but they are less reliable in expansion after penetrating various barriers than the 147gr loads. There are almost no good loads in the 115gr bullet weight class. -Troy |
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I tried the dud's in my MAC 11/9 set on Semi. All but a few dud's stayed dud's. I love shooting +P+ Hirtenberger, but with all of the dud's I've been getting I may not shoot them very often any more. |
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ty guys for the info i copied it so i can use it for future reference when i buy more ammo and guns.
the g26 is the baby 9mm isnt it |
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I won't even use +P+ in my MP5s. |
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A 9mm AR should be OK since it's a rifle retooled to fire a pistol round.
I wonder how well MPs/SMGs designed around standard 9mm loads fare? Does anyone know which 'authorities' req'd the L7A1 and for which gun? |
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I asked this because the snippit I posted is on the CCI/Speer Gold Dot LE website.
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British MOD according to the_reaper's letter. Just go to the last post on page 1. |
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In addition to the potential liabilty issues regarding +P+ ammo and civilians using it in handguns that can't handle the chamber pressures...
If the manufacturer is loading it for LEO use, marketing it for LEO use and selling it for LEO use, t there's no Federal excise tax being paid on it (%11), which would be one more reason they require that... " Purchasers must be able to affirm that +P+ ammunition is for law enforcement/government use only". Anytime you see boxes of ammo labled "For Law Enforcement Use Only", it simply means the tax hasn't been paid on it and is unauthorized for civilan sales. |
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