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Posted: 8/21/2001 9:22:05 AM EDT
A local pawn shop has a Beretta 92f in decent condition and a Browning 2-tone BDM in slightly better condition. Both in 9mm. The 92F has 1 hi-cap mag, the BDM only has two 10rders and a box. He said I could have either one for @375, maybe a little less. My questions are do you think you would choose either of these over the HS2000. I kind of like the compactness of the HS2000 for concealment, but the BDM also seems slim and compact. I am not impressed with the condition on either of the used pistols; holster wear, more on the Beretta. Neither feels loose, just well broke in. Neither looks abused, just not new. One other question I have is, could I shoot +P, +P+ ammo in any of these pistols? What would you buy? HS2000 seems such a good deal at 250 plus my transfer fee of 10.00 and shipping. But, both the used pistols seem to have a pretty good reputation also. guns762
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 9:29:34 AM EDT
If this is your first pistol I would get the Beretta. The BDM has been discontinued. The HS2000 seems to be a fine pistol also, but I would hesitate to make it my only one due to lack of mags & parts off the shelf. Hi-cap Mags can be made from 92 mags per Landon, but if you can't use tools you'l be screwed. I will buy the HS2000 myself, but it will be my 22nd handgun.
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 9:40:19 AM EDT
I have both the 92 and BDM. The Beretta is the one that I carry if somebody could be shooting at me. I only paid $275 NIB for the BDM since its now out of production. Its had a little over 2000 rounds fired through it since then, my son uses it for IDPA. I can't give you any real reason that I like the Beretta more..., just that I do. BUT..., I think that in this case the Beretta is the better buy. DMark
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 9:43:43 AM EDT
I already have many handguns. Just not a 9mm semi-auto. Most of my handguns are revolvers, but I have a Russian Makarov, CZ52, several .22's. I want a 9mm for several reasons. Cheap to shoot, plenty of ammo choices, hi-cap ability, little recoil, always wanted one! BTW, what ever I buy, it had better live up the the performance of my Makarov! I love that gun. Sweet DA and SA pull, very accurate for me.
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 9:51:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2001 9:50:23 AM EDT by Landon]
If more people had shot the HS, it would be a runaway 1st place answer to your question. Regarding mags- While the process is fairly simple to convert Beretta/Taurus pre-ban mags to fit the HS, some guys just aren't good enough with tools to do it. The dimensions of the Beretta feedlips are pretty much identical to the HS, but the mag catch is in a different place. I am pretty good with metalworking, and I own all the toold to properly do the job, and even I didn't do too well on the first mag I tried. My calipers tell me that appx. 18MM from the front opening of the mag is where you need to drill your 3/8's hole. After that is the tricky part. You have to take a small jewlers file, and fit the catch, flat on top, with a rounded base. I personally used a flat edge micro-file for the lip, and a crescent micro file for the rounding. You can also use Smith and Wesson 59 or Sig 226 Mags, but I have had best luck with the Beretta mags. 100% reliability with the factory Beretta mags I made after 1000+ rounds through those particular mags. The cheap USA mags I use for practice, and I had to invert the feedlips about 4mm to get them to feed, but they are 800+ rounds without a jam after I did the alteration. I use the USA's for range mags since all USA mags suck ass. If you want the slide to lock back properly, you can use the HS factory followers in your converted mag, but beware. You are entering a legal gray area. The ATF has ruled that a mag cannot be altered if it's alteration prohibits it's use in the gun it was originally designed for. The reason for this ruling was Metalwerkes was taking pretty much useless Suomi 9MM drum mags, and converting them into mags for guns we all know and love (UZI, MAC11, MP5, 9MM AR)- So, with the HS followers, it is gray as to if they are legal or not. I don't dare write them and ask them for a letter ruling, since I don't want to be the one responsible for a "NO" answer, but I am sure someone has, so expect a decision on that soon. [uzi][b]EXPERTS[/b]
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 9:58:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 10:03:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 10:07:30 AM EDT
I'd definately go with the Beretta. The BDM sucks, had one, was glad to sell it, mine was not very accurate and 10 round mags really suck for a 9mm, why have 10 when you can 15 in the Beretta? The HS2000 seems like a fine gun but there is not much of a track record for it and parts/gunsmithing may be hard to come by.
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 10:17:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Big_Bear: Where did you find a HS2000 for $250?
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Link Posted: 8/21/2001 10:18:05 AM EDT
I say go for the beretta.
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 10:18:18 AM EDT
Have owned a 92F since the late eighties. Shot several thousand rounds thru it. Not a single jam. Ever. Very happy with the gun. Shoot it regularly in IDPA matches. Don't know much if anything about the other two. BDM is discontinued which should tell you something. HS certainly has an attractive price, but availibility of mags, leather, etc is unknown to me. My vote is Beretta.
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 10:23:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2001 10:22:04 AM EDT by guns762]
Originally Posted By SGB: [i]"If I came across a 92 for $375 it'd me mine in a heartbeat"[/i] Just my .02 sgb
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Even in the condition I descibed? I would describe it as, NRA Very good. Will the 92F handle +P, or +P+ loads? Without causing undue wear and tear? Won't the BDM accept any Hi-Power hi-cap magazine?
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 10:32:28 AM EDT
[b]Beretta............. Current US issue[/b] The only reason they didn't adopt a Glock is because it wasn't a traditionial "Double Action", which is what the tests called for; so one was never submitted. If you want a gun the size of a boat anchor on your hip that shoots a 9MM, well, go ahead. [b]Many LEO carry[/b] We need to shake the notion that LEO's are immediatley knowledgable about firearms like a bear shakes water from his back. One would be amazed the amount of LEO's who 1) Think machine guns are illegal 2) can't shoot for shit (this is commonplace) 3) Know absolutley positivley NOTHING about firearms 4) are anti-gun themselves (I have plenty of personal experience with this, but for the sake of brievity, i'll refrain) 5) Think LE Only marked +P+ ammo is illegal for citizen posession the list goes on and on... Many LEO's also carry Smith and Wesson autos... That dosn't somehow make it stand any taller against any other gun. [b]Large parts availability[/b] As it realtes to the HS2000, they have a lifetime warranty. [b]Large holster selection[/b] As it realtes to the HS2000, this is changing. [b]Don't have to modify mags[/b] Clinton problem. Not a gun one. None the less, the modified mags work fine. As well as factory mags could, or so my experience tells me. THE HS is just such an outstanding gun when compared to all the others, it is amazing. I just wish they would start charging $500 for them so people would feel better about buying one. Oh yeah. Whoever said it dosn't have any track record? The Military and police of Croatia use it, and have been using the HS in one incarnation or another for years now. It has a track record. You just havn't heard about it.
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 10:35:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 10:39:23 AM EDT
I guess I'll be different and say go with the BDM. I own a BDM and my wife owns a 92 custom compact. I own several of high dollar pistols (hk p7m8, usp.40, usp.357 sig, usp .45, cz-100, colt delta elite, p-89) and the bdm is my choice for CCW. The BDM is very slim and has been ultra reliable with all ammo including +p, the 92 custom my wife has is very picky on what it eats, no hydrashocks or win. SVX for the beretta, it chokes every time. The arguement stated above that a 10 round 9mm is rediculous, get the berretta, well you can get the bdm mags in 15 round as well. 10 rounders go for $12 NIW, 15 rounder will run quite a bit more ($120) but it is a very slim pistol with excelent sites. The BDM also has a frame mounted safety instead of a slide safety. As for price I bought mine NIB for $375 with 2 15 round mags 6 months ago. Try to knock him down on his price. Around here the 92 series berettas are a dime a dozen and a NIB can be had for $475 or less. Get which one feels the best in your hand, don't rely solely on the info. you get from these boards. idaho-ar15
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 10:57:19 AM EDT
Get the 92F seems how you don't have a G17 or G19 on the list.
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 10:59:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 11:11:25 AM EDT
I sold a Beretta 92fs stainless to make room for a Kimber, and have regretted it since. I loved the Beretta, but didn't realize what I had till it was gone. So far of all the handguns I have owned the Beretta is only second to my collection of Glocks. I can't say about the BDM or the HS. I have heard some good things about the HS though. Also keep in mind you can pick up a half dozen 15 round pre-bans for the 92fs on Guns America from time to time for around $100. This should be a big selling point if you are not a LEO. Good luck. Ed.
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 11:15:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kevin: Get the 92F seems how you don't have a G17 or G19 on the list.
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Ya know, I shot a Glock 22 of my dad's several times. I didn't like it. Didn't like the feel. Wouldn't group for me that well. I liked the looks, liked the hi-cap mags, liked the finish-wears well, but I didn't think it was that accurate. Maybe I just need to practice with it?
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 11:16:05 AM EDT
hey guys, i don't have a handgun or a permit to carry, but if and when, i was thinking about the 92F. my question might help guns762, though. i read on this site a couple of years ago, someone's rant about the terrible customer service at Beretta. it involved a shot out bbl., i believe, and when the guy sent it back, they would not service/replace the bbl. because they said that none of their bbls were made to fire more than 10,000 rnds. is this true? thanks.
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 11:34:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 11:39:15 AM EDT
yeah, i don't really remember the details of his post, only that he negated any service because he [i]told[/i] Beretta that he fired 20,000 rnds, and they told him about the 10,000 number. i don't remember exactly if this was a warranty issue or not...damn my long-term memory!
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 11:53:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2001 12:00:22 PM EDT by Kevin]
Originally Posted By guns762: Ya know, I shot a Glock 22 of my dad's several times. I didn't like it. Didn't like the feel. Wouldn't group for me that well. I liked the looks, liked the hi-cap mags, liked the finish-wears well, but I didn't think it was that accurate. Maybe I just need to practice with it?
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My choice was the G23. I'm just a diehard .40 fan and the G23 in my opinion, fits many choices and it being a Glock allows some nice options. Two of my favorite features are the fact I can use mid-size or full-size variant mags (hi-caps are 13rd./15rd.) and I picked up an aftermarket 9mm conv. barrel (can also switch to .357 Sig) so I have another popular, inexpensive ammo choice if I wanna 'play' some. What generation G22 is your fathers, is it the 3rd gen. w/ finger grooves and accessory rails? If so/if not, you may wanna switch generations from what he has. I would certainly take advantage of having access to trying the Glock out more before deciding. Most folks really like the Glock's trigger once they get used to it because it's the same everytime. As far as accuracy is concerned you should be able to reign in the G22 remember that ammo choice can be a factor. The G17, 19 or 34 would be great choices and you may find the 9mm easier to shoot. The 9mm cartridge is good choice & ammunition evolution has brought it up to a very capable load. It's your choice though, not ours.
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 11:55:33 AM EDT
I can't really speak to the other pistols, but you will not go wrong with the 92F. It is kind of big, but it is a handsome and reliable weapon. In regards to barrel life, I think it, unlike most pistols, has a chrome lined bore. I had some cosmetic problems with my Beretta's grips (I bought it very used). Beretta fixed the problem for FREE. Their customer service was excellent.
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 12:47:31 PM EDT
I have a 92FS and a BDM, and I love them both. The only problem with the BDM is magazine availability. In answer to a question above, no, it does not accept Hi-Power mags. 10-rounders are fairly easy to come by, but 15-rounders go for upwards of $125, and that's when you can actually find some. The 92F is reliable and universally accepted. Parts and hi-cap mags can be found everywhere. The one thing I like more about the BDM is its extremely thin frame. It's super-comfortable to hold and shoot. The bottom line, however, is that it's simply not a Berretta. (Plus the fact that I HATE two-tone pistols!) Buy the 92. You'll never regret it. KYPD! - USNA 91
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 1:02:25 PM EDT
[b]When did Glock enter the conversation? I pointed this out as Military procurement means greater accessibility to logistics and lower prices on surplus to the public.[/b] I was citing Glock because one of the reasons you said the Beretta was such a wonderful weapon was because the Military used it. The Military didn't pick Beretta because it was the best handgun available... They picked it because it was the best handgun that met the criteria that they had set down.. [b]Weapons carried by LEO personnel must meet standards of Quality, Reliability, Functionality, Accuracy and Service for reasons of Safety and Liability. Individual Officer preference seldom has much to do with it.[/b] I know many departments allow individual officers to choose their own weapons. The point I was making is that many officers or departments buy a weapon for many different reasons. Cost often being paramount. And just because you see a gun on an officers hip, dosn't mean a damn thing. THey aren't immediatley quantified as experts on such matters just becaue they carry guns. I know a lot of idiots who carry guns. [b]And that means that they never break? What about local authorized dealer service. Aftermarket accessories. Aftermarket performance parts?[/b] Well, no gun "never" breaks.. But I have an ungodly amount of ammo through mine (I compete with it, and practice with it), and it hasn't broken or jammed. Go to hs2000talk.com, and you can hear from a ton of other HS owners who can say the same thing. [b]If you want Hicap you still have to Modify Mags. In my book that's a minus.[/b] Yeah, it's a pain in the ass. But it isn't an obstacle that can't be overcome. [b]I don't think anyone has maligned this weapon, just picked a preference for another above it.[/b] Well, the HS is in a very unique boat. Not many people have ever shot one, yet so many seem to know all about it (Typical internet experts)- Glock afficianados see it as a invader, competing against their Glocks, with all the functionality, at a substantially less price.. (Please keep in mind I own a Glock 17, and a Glock 20) [b]Please feel free to enlighten we the ignorant with the expertise of [b][red]CROATIA[/b][/red]'s superior weapons technology and its track record.[/b] If Croat scientists came up with a cure for cancer, does that mean you wouldn't use it if you came down with Lukemia? Fact is, the gun does all it's claimed to do, and all it should ever do. It goes boom every time. The pricetag is so reasonable, IMO, there isn't any 9MM anyone should buy if they don't already have one. I wouldn't care if the gun was made in China, India, or Zimbabwe. If it works, it's all right by me. Besides. Do you think a Croation machinist can't run a CNC machine as well as an American? Or cast plastic as well as an Austrian? As far as it's use in Military, again. Go ask them at hs2000talk. There are a few guys there who are completley up on it's history, and can tell you more about it than I can.It has been extensivley used for years and years now, in Wars, and domestic police action. They seem to like it. But since the world of guns revolves around America, and it is new here to most shooters, you get the commonplace "IT IS UNPROVEN!" which is total bullshit. Besides. They said the same thing about Glocks when they first got here. Not to mention that they could go through metal detectors, but I digress...
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 1:07:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2001 1:03:26 PM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 1:36:36 PM EDT
You guys have answered alot of my questions, thanks. I think I have ruled out the BDM. Price seems high for condition, and availability of Hi-cap mags. I'm almost talked into the Beretta. Availability of mags, mostly, but also parts and accessories. And, I've always wanted a Beretta 92. I just got off the HSarms web sight and I'm impressed. I'm not too worried about the hi-cap mag problem. I think I can handle any mods necessary. Accessories seem to be coming around. Is the Beretta considered to be inherently accurate? I've seen some people say it is, some say it isn't accurate at all? The HS2000's accuracy seems to be pretty good from all the testimonials, @2"average 5 shot, 25yds. Thanks again for your opinions. I know it is just the internet, but I don't know who else to ask that would have any but basic knowledge.
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 1:44:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SGB: Well damn son, buy me one[:D] [i][b]"I'll be happy to own it, if you'll buy it for me"[/i][/b] sgb [}:D]
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If you ae ever in NE Florida, shoot me an e-mail, and you can gladly shoot mine... I promise after you do, you will beat path to your nearest FFL and fork out the $300 or so it takes to get into an HS2000. They are just [i]THAT[/i] good of a pistol, regardless of price.....
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 2:00:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By guns762: HS2000's accuracy seems to be pretty good from all the testimonials, @2"average 5 shot, 25yds. Thanks again for your opinions. I know it is just the internet, but I don't know who else to ask that would have any but basic knowledge.
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Keep in mind the cited accuracy claims are all from a ransom rest. Practical shootability is critical. Meaning, while the gun may be capable of certian groupings, variables like ergonomics and trigger seriously dictate how well a gun can be shot. The HS is a very very very very shootable gun. A while back, a local range held an informal pistol competition. One of the phases was a quick bullseye phase at 20 yards, having to hit a small card 5 1'2 inches by 7 inches with a 2 1'2 inch "bonus" circle that represented 2 points. Of all the guns there, Glocks, Sigs, HK's, 1911's, and a Ruger, the HS was the only gun to get 100% hits on the bullseye phase. And I know it wasn't all the "shooter" because I didn't win the competition that day... Just that part.Below is a pic of the target, with a .357 for scale [img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/033/ON/VN/FC/ed30024.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 2:35:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Landon: Keep in mind the cited accuracy claims are all from a ransom
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The one article I was thinking of stated that the accuracy was tested "prone" from 25yds. I was surprised to see this....as you said, most are tested from a ransom rest. How about the accuracy of the Beretta??? Your opinions?
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 2:57:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By guns762: The one article I was thinking of stated that the accuracy was tested "prone" from 25yds. I was surprised to see this....as you said, most are tested from a ransom rest. How about the accuracy of the Beretta??? Your opinions?
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Well, a lot of people love their Berettas, but I don't even think the hardest Beretta enthusiast would call it a tack driver. The basic design allows a lot of movement with the barrel, from shot to shot. This can be improved with a Weigand Combat Nosepiece, but that's $70 for the part and another $80-100 for instilation.... It is a reliable gun, and the Beretta in it's INOX config. is a very nice gun. It is also very pretty with graceful flowing lines. It looks like it came straight out of the mind of DaVinci... But the fact is, it's an arcane design. While still viable, there are better choices. HS2000 is one of them. You can also get HS's in .40 too!
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 3:11:59 PM EDT
I had a BDM once upon a time. Good gun, only problem I had was accidentally activating the decock lever while shooting. I'd go for the Beretta for this reason and because BDM high caps are rare as hens teeth. Holster selection for the Browning is also limited.
Link Posted: 8/21/2001 4:01:57 PM EDT
In the past 90 days, I have purchased both the 92 (FS in INOX) and the HS2000 brand new. The 92 came right out of the box and fired 150 rounds of UMC FMJ into a ragged 2in hole at 7 yds without even the slightest hiccup. The HS DIDNT! If I ever have to put my life on the line, I will have a Beretta in my hand.
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