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Posted: 12/4/2016 4:57:20 PM EST
Grown tired of constantly changing out high wattage t-12 8 foot daylight bulbs and ballasts going bad over the past 20 years so I hired a guy to convert all the existing fixtures over to LED's. Holy shit at the difference it makes over the T-12 daylights. Would require a welding lens if I had swapped from cool whites. Highly recommend for anyone in the same situation. 60 fixtures (120 bulbs) in a 10,250 sq. ft. shop. Let there be light. Night time with no sunlight coming through the skylights here. Then there are another 228 4 foot fluorescent color corrected in the two prep stations, mixing room and two paint booths that have been getting swapped out as well.  



High noon with skylights and fluorescents in the front area of the shop.



Link Posted: 12/4/2016 4:59:46 PM EST
[#1]
If you don't mind me asking, what was the cost to do a shop that large?  How many years till ROE break even?
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 5:02:11 PM EST
[#2]
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 5:06:59 PM EST
[#3]
I have a much smaller space with 6 individual 8' fluorescents
Like you my ballasts go bad every 3 years or so and those things are like 40 bucks apiece
Currently 3 out of the 6 are non working so your post has my interest.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 5:11:48 PM EST
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If you don't mind me asking, what was the cost to do a shop that large?  How many years till ROE break even?
View Quote


He's doing them for $90.00 per fixture, bulbs included. Basically just bypasses the ballast and installs bulbs. Bulbs convert to 24 volt internally. Never could get my electrician to give me a firm price but he was $90.00 each plus labor. Now that would have been expensive. How many years to break even? I've spent nearly this much the past five years chasing ballasts and replacing bulbs. It was time to do something.  There were 58 existing fixtures and two new ones getting added.

Other options would have required replacing fixtures and running more conduit and wiring. The bulbs are available with a frosted or clear lens. I went with the clear as they were brighter and you can aim them to a degree. Worked out great. Should be finished this week.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 5:12:27 PM EST
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have a much smaller space with 6 individual 8' fluorescents
Like you my ballasts go bad every 3 years or so and those things are like 40 bucks apiece
Currently 3 out of the 6 are non working so your post has my interest.
View Quote


If you're losing ballasts that often something is wrong. Do you have electronic ballasts? Is the space temp. controlled, if not you need to switch ballast type to a cold start, has an extra capacitor to help on start load.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 5:13:21 PM EST
[#6]
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Quoted:
Sounds very expensive.
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Link Posted: 12/4/2016 5:16:33 PM EST
[#7]
I have 8' florescent lights in my garage and every year around this time I start to swear more at them because their light output sucks more than normal.

I've been thinking about replacing them with led lights and after seeing your photos I think I know what next weeks project is going to be.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 5:17:13 PM EST
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Sounds very expensive.
View Quote



Its not as expensive as you would think.  We have been converting 4' fixtures in MCC's for a while now.  Our cost on the conversion is $60+L.    

The ones we are using you replace the ballast with a driver and the lights are just strip magnet type things that you pull the bulb and put them on the pan.  

As far as cost on getting your moneys worth I tell my customers this.  If you replace with LED and rebuild a fixture.  The LED is more expensive now but a year down the road when we have to come out and rebuild the non LED fixture you have lost money because of labor to install.   They are making LED retrofits for everything now and LED lights are getting real cheap.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 5:19:45 PM EST
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


He's doing them for $90.00 per fixture, bulbs included. Basically just bypasses the ballast and installs bulbs. Bulbs convert to 24 volt internally. Never could get my electrician to give me a firm price but he was $90.00 each plus labor. Now that would have been expensive. How many years to break even? I've spent nearly this much the past five years chasing ballasts and replacing bulbs. It was time to do something.  There were 58 existing fixtures and two new ones getting added.

Other options would have required replacing fixtures and running more conduit and wiring. The bulbs are available with a frosted or clear lens. I went with the clear as they were brighter and you can aim them to a degree. Worked out great. Should be finished this week.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
If you don't mind me asking, what was the cost to do a shop that large?  How many years till ROE break even?


He's doing them for $90.00 per fixture, bulbs included. Basically just bypasses the ballast and installs bulbs. Bulbs convert to 24 volt internally. Never could get my electrician to give me a firm price but he was $90.00 each plus labor. Now that would have been expensive. How many years to break even? I've spent nearly this much the past five years chasing ballasts and replacing bulbs. It was time to do something.  There were 58 existing fixtures and two new ones getting added.

Other options would have required replacing fixtures and running more conduit and wiring. The bulbs are available with a frosted or clear lens. I went with the clear as they were brighter and you can aim them to a degree. Worked out great. Should be finished this week.


I just converted from 8' t12s to t8 fixtures. They are putting out more light and using a lot less power. I will eventually replace the bulbs with LEDs but not for a few years. I am not confident about the longevity of those LED bulbs yet...
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 5:24:45 PM EST
[#10]
Were your original lights 120Watt low temperature bulbs?  

Funny thing is I have four double sets and I don't remember replacing a bulb in the last 20 years. 
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 5:26:28 PM EST
[#11]
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 5:39:43 PM EST
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


If you're losing ballasts that often something is wrong. Do you have electronic ballasts? Is the space temp. controlled, if not you need to switch ballast type to a cold start, has an extra capacitor to help on start load.
View Quote


I'm not sure if they are electronic I purchased the place pre construction in the 1997ish and leased it out until 2010.
When the place became vacant, bank paid off and elderly mom ( now deceased) moving in with me I took possession and swapped out the non working lights with new tubes, when that didn't work purchased new ballast at lowes so I am not sure if they are cold starts or not.
The area is not temp controlled but sandwhiched between two other units so in the summer it will get hot but in winter it does not get as cold as outside temp - maybe low fifties to high 40's
Too be fair I only replaced the 2 of the 3 since a classic car was under one and I had and still have a bunch of crap from my parents place making moving the car a day long ordeal
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 6:15:14 PM EST
[#13]
We have 4' fixtures at work, swapped over a bunch for $10 a bulb plus whatever our maintenance guy makes. 12' ceilings, 4 bulbs per fixture, frigin bright.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 6:26:49 PM EST
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
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Interesting.

There is a crossfit gym opening in my town soon and they have a massive industrial space with lots of those lights, they were talking about replacing them with LEDs.

Another thing to consider when thinking about cost savings is in warmer areas you are going to save on AC costs as LEDs put out almost zero heat compared to traditional fixtures.
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LEDs throw off a ton of heat - comparable to fluorescents. No where near incandescent or HID heat though.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 6:27:32 PM EST
[#15]
We've done a lot of work converting buildings over to LED. One thing to consider before you change to LED's is how bright they are going to be. One of my customers just changed out all of his 2x4 fixtures in both of his office buildings to LED. I had to come in and start installing dimming systems to various tenants because they were too bright for them.  Luckily his LED drivers were 0-10 volt dimming, but it was an added cost that he did not expect, your talking an extra $500 to dim the lights in one office with two lights (parts and labor).
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 6:29:48 PM EST
[#16]
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 6:35:36 PM EST
[#17]
Guys, for those that have done the conversion can ya'll mention a brand name?? Web link?? Something.
I have 6 4' I would like to replace and 4 new installs.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 6:36:55 PM EST
[#18]
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 6:44:44 PM EST
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Guys, for those that have done the conversion can ya'll mention a brand name?? Web link?? Something.
I have 6 4' I would like to replace and 4 new installs.
View Quote


Hyperikon on Amazon is who we used.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 6:45:54 PM EST
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
i did the lights in my garage last year. 16x  4foot 4 bulb fixtures. went 2 bulbs per fixture and the light output is easily 1.5x what i got with 4 bulbs at less than 1/2 the power draw. people say it's expensive but over the course of 2 years it will pay for itself. i was replaceing atleast one ballast a year and easily 10+ bulbs a year. add in the power savings and if i get 2.5yrs out of the bulbs i break even. given they have a 5yr warranty i win. i have no reason to think any will fail as leds are dead nuts reliable.

the price is falling like a rock on them now. if you look around you can find review sites pretty much giving them away. you may end up with a few different brands or models but the end result is the same.
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Cheap fixtures fail often. Usually it's the electronic driver that fails, or too much power/too much heat burn out the LEDs.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 6:48:41 PM EST
[#21]
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 6:53:22 PM EST
[#22]
I just relamped 2800 SF from T-12 to LED for $675 with a 0.7 year simple payback.

I expect that I increased the value of the building by about $12,000 in the process.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 7:06:03 PM EST
[#23]
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 7:07:09 PM EST
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

should have done them yourself. it's a 10min job per fixture.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


He's doing them for $90.00 per fixture, bulbs included. Basically just bypasses the ballast and installs bulbs. Bulbs convert to 24 volt internally. Never could get my electrician to give me a firm price but he was $90.00 each plus labor. Now that would have been expensive. How many years to break even? I've spent nearly this much the past five years chasing ballasts and replacing bulbs. It was time to do something.  There were 58 existing fixtures and two new ones getting added.

Other options would have required replacing fixtures and running more conduit and wiring. The bulbs are available with a frosted or clear lens. I went with the clear as they were brighter and you can aim them to a degree. Worked out great. Should be finished this week.

should have done them yourself. it's a 10min job per fixture.



On top of a full time job running my business AND 30 pieces of rental property that I have to maintain, there are plenty of things I either have no time or interest in doin myself. At $90.00 per fixture, how much could I have actually saved by doing it myself? They are all 16 -17 feet up and take a few minutes more than ten per fixture with a helper out there with him. But then again, this is Arfcom where everything is cheap and easy.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 7:09:13 PM EST
[#25]
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 7:12:25 PM EST
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

mine are close to 12 months now with zero failures. they have a 5yr replacement warranty if they fail.

something else i didn't realize about florescent is they lose 20% of their output the first 10 hours or so of use. so you best bet is about 80% rated output for the remainder of it's life. granted the bulbs are cheap but the power savings for large qty's of them WILL pay off. my power bill actually dropped about 3.00 per month for my small shop.
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After three years (I think) T12s use twice as much electricity and put out half as much light. T8s and T5s are better but you still should relamp every there years. I can relamp my 10,000 square foot building for $300.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 7:14:25 PM EST
[#27]
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Quoted:

mine are direct wired commercial fixtures. either way hyperikons warranty is 5yrs pretty much regardless of the reason. i confirmed that before buying.
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LEDs run off of like three volts so there are transformers in there regulating voltage. Like you said though, the warranty will cover you and if they last through the warranty they should last a lot longer.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 7:27:54 PM EST
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

mine are direct wired commercial fixtures. either way hyperikons warranty is 5yrs pretty much regardless of the reason. i confirmed that before buying.
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Hope they are still around in 5 years.  Lot of companies come and go over night in this market.

Check with you local power provider as they may be offering rebates for the upgrades.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 7:53:58 PM EST
[#29]
Wouldn't this combo be all you need?
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 8:00:08 PM EST
[#30]
where i am we are a 1.5 million sq ft building. changed all lighting to LED.
I agree its nice, bright and a different color. but not cheap.
it should pay for itself in a few years though. power savings was decent.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 8:12:16 PM EST
[#31]
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Quoted:
Wouldn't this combo be all you need?
http://i64.tinypic.com/qoaoat.jpg
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The Hyperikons came with both ends. They only use power on one end, so it converts the other end to dead. We pulled all the ballasts and wiring and shit but there's no reason you couldn't reuse the dead end. You can reuse the live end also if you want to snip the old wires. We replaced everything since it came with them.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 9:01:14 PM EST
[#32]
Lighting retrofits have the best payback of any energy project. That's why salesmen try to bundle them in with more expensive HVAC and BAS upgrades.
Link Posted: 12/4/2016 9:03:49 PM EST
[#33]
Tag
Link Posted: 12/5/2016 9:34:39 AM EST
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Guys, for those that have done the conversion can ya'll mention a brand name?? Web link?? Something.
I have 6 4' I would like to replace and 4 new installs.
View Quote

Here are a couple for you:

https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/t8-bulbs-led-tubes/

http://www.bulbs.com/LED_Linear/results.aspx

https://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/led-tube/filter/Bulb_Type,T8,30,3871:
Link Posted: 12/5/2016 9:41:46 AM EST
[#35]
Last year I put LED's in my station canopy.  8 units.  My electric bill was around 900, and its dropped to around 800 average.
Link Posted: 12/5/2016 9:50:53 AM EST
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Here are a couple for you:

https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/t8-bulbs-led-tubes/

http://www.bulbs.com/LED_Linear/results.aspx

https://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/led-tube/filter/Bulb_Type,T8,30,3871:
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Guys, for those that have done the conversion can ya'll mention a brand name?? Web link?? Something.
I have 6 4' I would like to replace and 4 new installs.

Here are a couple for you:

https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/t8-bulbs-led-tubes/

http://www.bulbs.com/LED_Linear/results.aspx

https://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/led-tube/filter/Bulb_Type,T8,30,3871:


Been doing this at work.

I have replaced over  600 4' bulbs.

Most have been with bulbs from LED Global supply. They have a DLC listed one that will work with and without ballast as well as either a dual end or single end source.

They have a plastic lense, a 5year warranty and seem tough enough. I had a guy drop one from 20' up and it still worked.

They are a little pricier because of the DLC certification (need it for rebates) but they seem to be worth it.

You might want to look to your local power company to see if you can get a rebate. Most that do require you to fill out the forms before buying the equipment

I just bought some 2' bulbs from 1000bulbs and will test them out.
Link Posted: 12/5/2016 10:02:05 AM EST
[#37]
My church did that same thing on our multi purpose building with a grant from the power company.  We were constantly dealing with ballasts and bulbs.  That problem is solved.  The cost of the continuing maintenance on the old lights was killing us.  I don't know that the power savings is really all that great so for us ROI was secondary to stopping the bleeding with the old fixtures. 
Link Posted: 12/5/2016 10:34:43 AM EST
[#38]
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Quoted:



LEDs throw off a ton of heat - comparable to fluorescents. No where near incandescent or HID heat though.
View Quote



Flourescents give off heat from the ballast and across the bulb.  LED's give off heat right at the diode.  While the heat concentration of the LED is higher, the total heat is lower (look at the wattage vs light output- LED puts out more light for less power consumed).
Link Posted: 12/5/2016 10:38:36 AM EST
[#39]
Link Posted: 12/5/2016 10:54:07 AM EST
[#40]
Attachment Attached File


We just got some also. They are going to add them to the rest of the shop also.

The new 2500 ton press in the background.
Link Posted: 12/5/2016 11:05:36 AM EST
[#41]
Phillips was trying to sell me some specialty LED lighting in 4ft strips for $700 a few years ago, they've dropped down to the $300 - $400 range now. A chinese company is trying to sell me a similar fixture for $25.

I could replace it 12 times and still come out.
Link Posted: 12/5/2016 11:29:50 AM EST
[#42]
I recently moved into a new house, and there were only two fluorescent light fixtures in there, each with two 4' T12.  After the first winter the ballast in one went out completely, and the other would only work during the summer.  A guy locally upgraded his barn to LED and gave me 9 T8 fixtures + bulbs for free.  I put six up on the existing switch, and two more over the workbench I just built on another switch.  I'm just glad I actually have light now, maybe in the future I will go LED .

For those complaining about issues with fluorescent in the cold, make sure you have ballasts rated for cold (the old ones I removed were rated for something like 50F!), and T8 or T5 work better than T12.  All of mine turn on instantly with temps in the mid 30s.  We'll see how they work as the temps continue to drop here.
Link Posted: 12/20/2016 11:51:26 AM EST
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
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I recently moved into a new house, and there were only two fluorescent light fixtures in there, each with two 4' T12.  After the first winter the ballast in one went out completely, and the other would only work during the summer.  A guy locally upgraded his barn to LED and gave me 9 T8 fixtures + bulbs for free.  I put six up on the existing switch, and two more over the workbench I just built on another switch.  I'm just glad I actually have light now, maybe in the future I will go LED .

For those complaining about issues with fluorescent in the cold, make sure you have ballasts rated for cold (the old ones I removed were rated for something like 50F!), and T8 or T5 work better than T12.  All of mine turn on instantly with temps in the mid 30s.  We'll see how they work as the temps continue to drop here
View Quote
As it goes below 30, they will have less light output until they warm up a few seconds.  I have low temp ballasts and 8' 120W fluoroscent bulbs.  They will also make a quite audible buzz when you first hit the light switch.  They may barber pole a few seconds too. We do get a week or two of weather below freezing around here sometimes.  

So, for the LED conversion, is there a DC power supply that is part of this or do the bulbs have that built in and you just wire to 120AC?  
Link Posted: 12/20/2016 12:16:19 PM EST
[#44]
This is relevant to my interests. I have a bunch of shitty fixtures in my garage and my dad gave me a bunch of 4' lights.
Link Posted: 12/20/2016 12:43:45 PM EST
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
As it goes below 30, they will have less light output until they warm up a few seconds.  I have low temp ballasts and 8' 120W fluorescent bulbs.  They will also make a quite audible buzz when you first hit the light switch.  They may barber pole a few seconds too. We do get a week or two of weather below freezing around here sometimes.  

So, for the LED conversion, is there a DC power supply that is part of this or do the bulbs have that built in and you just wire to 120AC?  
View Quote

For the ones I bought that bypassed the ballast, it was wired direct to the 120VAC.  I just read the directions, watched a couple yt videos and did it myself - easy peasy.
Link Posted: 12/20/2016 12:44:51 PM EST
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I recently moved into a new house, and there were only two fluorescent light fixtures in there, each with two 4' T12.  After the first winter the ballast in one went out completely, and the other would only work during the summer.  A guy locally upgraded his barn to LED and gave me 9 T8 fixtures + bulbs for free.  I put six up on the existing switch, and two more over the workbench I just built on another switch.  I'm just glad I actually have light now, maybe in the future I will go LED .

For those complaining about issues with fluorescent in the cold, just replace them with ballast bypass LED bulbs.  make sure you have ballasts rated for cold (the old ones I removed were rated for something like 50F!), and T8 or T5 work better than T12.  All of mine turn on instantly with temps in the mid 30s.  We'll see how they work as the temps continue to drop here.
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FIFY.

In this day and age, there's simply no reason to fork around with ballasted fluorescent tubes and/or ballasts.  If you have a lighting problem, LED is the way to go.
Link Posted: 12/20/2016 1:01:34 PM EST
[#47]
Link Posted: 12/20/2016 1:06:10 PM EST
[#48]
You guys are getting fucking hosed.

$10 bulb, no re-wiring, no dicking with tombstones or ballast.  Direct drop in LED 4 footer.  

We just did 2000 bulbs here.
Link Posted: 12/20/2016 1:13:50 PM EST
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You guys are getting fucking hosed.

$10 bulb, no re-wiring, no dicking with tombstones or ballast.  Direct drop in LED 4 footer.  

We just did 2000 bulbs here.
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You should go into business replacing 8 foot T12 LED replacements then. You'd be rich.

So, what happens when the ballast that you did not bypass dies? And thanks for the link to the 8 foot T12 replacement LED ten dollar bulbs.
Link Posted: 12/20/2016 1:16:45 PM EST
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



You should go into business replacing 8 foot T12 LED replacements then. You'd be rich.

So, what happens when the ballast that you did not bypass dies? And thanks for the link to the 8 foot T12 replacement LED ten dollar bulbs.
View Quote


I had to run and look at the box

Topaz L4T8E; they're T8's.  

I can't remember the last time a ballast died here.
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