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Posted: 6/13/2015 3:21:07 PM EDT
Can shoot it faaairly well to 100 yards.




Barnes 45gr TSX get good expansion and penetration (13"-14").------ Hand loads BTW



3.750" 604fps BB penetration @41degrees(gel temp, not ambient)



As an added bonus, the exiting muzzle pressure is 23,546 PSI so it acts as a flash bang in close quarters



Link Posted: 6/13/2015 3:24:39 PM EDT
Well those hand loads sure work around my biggest complaint about such a setup.  I'd want a can on it though, full length rifles are already quite loud and flashy enough for me inside, thanks.  
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 3:26:21 PM EDT
I like 10.5, but to each his own. I've seen tests of bullets expanding well out to 200-250m with them, which is about the farthest I ever shoot anyways.

How well is expansion past HD ranges for your 7.5?

ETA: I see you are shooting a pistol. I would not use a pistol for HD regardless of caliber. Get something with a stock.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 3:26:24 PM EDT
Quoted:

As an added bonus, the exiting muzzle pressure is 23,546 PSI so it acts as a flash bang in close quarters

View Quote


Yeah, I think it's pretty viable, but your ears are gonna hurt.  Have you tested the Federal 50 gr Varmint round?  Heard that is pretty good, polymer tip good expansion and can be had for about 50 cpr on sale.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 3:28:35 PM EDT
Get some 77gr CBC HP's and I'd say it's plenty good for HD.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 3:29:06 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Yeah, I think it's pretty viable, but your ears are gonna hurt.  Have you tested the Federal 50 gr Varmint round?  Heard that is pretty good, polymer tip good expansion and can be had for about 50 cpr on sale.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

As an added bonus, the exiting muzzle pressure is 23,546 PSI so it acts as a flash bang in close quarters



Yeah, I think it's pretty viable, but your ears are gonna hurt.  Have you tested the Federal 50 gr Varmint round?  Heard that is pretty good, polymer tip good expansion and can be had for about 50 cpr on sale.


Only for the first round... 'specially if shot indoors without protection.
You'll have to wait  a few days for the ringing to subside to find out how much damage was done though.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 3:29:31 PM EDT
It wouldn't be my first choice that is for sure.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 3:30:34 PM EDT
Funny thing... I was just going to mention the flash/bang bonus
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 3:32:02 PM EDT
I have a 7.5" 5.56 pistol.

It's fun to shoot, but I'm heavily considering swapping out the barrel for a 8.5" 300 blk.

Interesting data op.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 3:32:37 PM EDT
My 7.5" AR is fun to shoot. I use it at the local tactical match. Kills cardboard dead!

Link Posted: 6/13/2015 3:39:57 PM EDT
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I like 10.5, but to each his own. I've seen tests of bullets expanding well out to 200-250m with them, which is about the farthest I ever shoot anyways.

How well is expansion past HD ranges for your 7.5?
View Quote



My gel was too small for more testing than what I did here.

Last weekend I had a large block that I used to test 50gr TSX at 15 and 50yds. The 50gr I could only get to 2392 FPS, at that speed they would only partially expand to about  0.312". Oddly, about the same expansion and penetration(about 16") at 15 and 50 yards. I assume these 45gr will have similar results at 50yds as they did at 15, and I think 50 is about the max practical range for this maybe 75 or 100.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 3:45:35 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Yeah, I think it's pretty viable, but your ears are gonna hurt.  Have you tested the Federal 50 gr Varmint round?  Heard that is pretty good, polymer tip good expansion and can be had for about 50 cpr on sale.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

As an added bonus, the exiting muzzle pressure is 23,546 PSI so it acts as a flash bang in close quarters



Yeah, I think it's pretty viable, but your ears are gonna hurt.  Have you tested the Federal 50 gr Varmint round?  Heard that is pretty good, polymer tip good expansion and can be had for about 50 cpr on sale.


PSA has them for about 30 cpr right now. I picked up a few boxes this week but don't have a pistol to try them in
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 3:49:20 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Yeah, I think it's pretty viable, but your ears are gonna hurt.  Have you tested the Federal 50 gr Varmint round? Heard that is pretty good, polymer tip good expansion and can be had for about 50 cpr on sale.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

As an added bonus, the exiting muzzle pressure is 23,546 PSI so it acts as a flash bang in close quarters



Yeah, I think it's pretty viable, but your ears are gonna hurt.  Have you tested the Federal 50 gr Varmint round? Heard that is pretty good, polymer tip good expansion and can be had for about 50 cpr on sale.



No I just assumed factory varmint loads wouldn't give decent enough muzzle velocity from a short barrel to be effective.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 3:54:35 PM EDT
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Get some 177gr CBC HP's and I'd say it's plenty good for HD.
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you mean 17 grain?
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 3:57:45 PM EDT
I think it would. I fot one. They can be more reliable then some suggest. Clean burning powder is the key.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 4:08:22 PM EDT
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No I just assumed factory varmint loads wouldn't give decent enough muzzle velocity from a short barrel to be effective.
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Quoted:

As an added bonus, the exiting muzzle pressure is 23,546 PSI so it acts as a flash bang in close quarters



Yeah, I think it's pretty viable, but your ears are gonna hurt.  Have you tested the Federal 50 gr Varmint round? Heard that is pretty good, polymer tip good expansion and can be had for about 50 cpr on sale.



No I just assumed factory varmint loads wouldn't give decent enough muzzle velocity from a short barrel to be effective.


True, the velocity is lower but the more fragile varmint bullet usually makes up for it, yielding positive results.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 4:13:54 PM EDT
For shits and giggles I shot these through my 18" into some 3/8" steel(29 and 41 Rockwell hardness). They run 3347 fps out of it, it is 1:7 twist.


If you were wondering what an inside out 45gr TSX looks like, it is the thing laying on the plate.....








Link Posted: 6/13/2015 4:19:22 PM EDT
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True, the velocity is lower but the more fragile varmint bullet usually makes up for it, yielding positive results.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

As an added bonus, the exiting muzzle pressure is 23,546 PSI so it acts as a flash bang in close quarters



Yeah, I think it's pretty viable, but your ears are gonna hurt.  Have you tested the Federal 50 gr Varmint round? Heard that is pretty good, polymer tip good expansion and can be had for about 50 cpr on sale.



No I just assumed factory varmint loads wouldn't give decent enough muzzle velocity from a short barrel to be effective.


True, the velocity is lower but the more fragile varmint bullet usually makes up for it, yielding positive results.


I wouldn't think it would hold together enough to get the penetration depth, or is it for larger varmints?
I don't buy factory ammo other than for my carry pistol so I am not really up on the factory rifle offerings.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 4:25:06 PM EDT
Way to blasty for me.





Link Posted: 6/13/2015 5:07:39 PM EDT
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Well those hand loads sure work around my biggest complaint about such a setup.  I'd want a can on it though, full length rifles are already quite loud and flashy enough for me inside, thanks.    
View Quote


THIS

Unless you intend to injure and disable your attackers (and yourself) with noise and muzzle flash, a 7.5" barrel AR is a painful to use novelty item if you don't have a can on it.  And then it's liable to still be as loud as an un-silenced carbine or rifle.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 5:11:34 PM EDT
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My 7.5" AR is fun to shoot. I use it at the local tactical match. Kills cardboard dead!

https://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7717/17135046447_334e0ede4e_k.jpg  
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If it was a pistol instead of an SBR, would it be legal for use in the pistol portion of a 3-gun match?
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 5:13:41 PM EDT
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I have a 7.5" 5.56 pistol.

It's fun to shoot, but I'm heavily considering swapping out the barrel for a 8.5" 300 blk.

Interesting data op.
View Quote

I am thinking about a 7.62x39.  I have to much 7.62x39 and I am cheap.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 5:48:23 PM EDT
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Only for the first round... 'specially if shot indoors without protection.
You'll have to wait  a few days for the ringing to subside to find out how much damage was done though.
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Quoted:

As an added bonus, the exiting muzzle pressure is 23,546 PSI so it acts as a flash bang in close quarters



Yeah, I think it's pretty viable, but your ears are gonna hurt.  Have you tested the Federal 50 gr Varmint round?  Heard that is pretty good, polymer tip good expansion and can be had for about 50 cpr on sale.


Only for the first round... 'specially if shot indoors without protection.
You'll have to wait  a few days for the ringing to subside to find out how much damage was done though.



I've fired one in doors (16 inch though). Don't remember hearing it go off.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 6:03:19 PM EDT
What seems like a good idea now won't after you're deaf.

I still don't understand the whole AR pistol thing, but to each their own.

Link Posted: 6/13/2015 6:04:41 PM EDT
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I wouldn't think it would hold together enough to get the penetration depth, or is it for larger varmints?
I don't buy factory ammo other than for my carry pistol so I am not really up on the factory rifle offerings.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

As an added bonus, the exiting muzzle pressure is 23,546 PSI so it acts as a flash bang in close quarters



Yeah, I think it's pretty viable, but your ears are gonna hurt.  Have you tested the Federal 50 gr Varmint round? Heard that is pretty good, polymer tip good expansion and can be had for about 50 cpr on sale.


No I just assumed factory varmint loads wouldn't give decent enough muzzle velocity from a short barrel to be effective.


True, the velocity is lower but the more fragile varmint bullet usually makes up for it, yielding positive results.


I wouldn't think it would hold together enough to get the penetration depth, or is it for larger varmints?
I don't buy factory ammo other than for my carry pistol so I am not really up on the factory rifle offerings.


I don't know about the load in question, but most "varmint" loads won't get to the 12 inch mark.

Australian Outback loaded with a blitzking seem to be decent rounds and get to the 10 inch mark, which is fairly impressive for varmint bullets.

https://youtu.be/mzvgmAljQ4s

The bullets to watch right now are Sierra's new tipped match kings.  Based off of their OTM Matchkings with a polymer tip added.  The tip is designed to give the bullet a better BC, but it also acts as a plunger, causing some fragmentation while leaving the core to penetrate deeply.  After people have had a chance to play with them, they may become the new must have round.

https://youtu.be/qXBU03vdr2Q

Of course, the shortest barrel I've seen used when testing the TMK's is the 11.5 in the video above.  I don't know what it will do with the velocity loss out of a 7.5.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 6:07:19 PM EDT
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THIS

Unless you intend to injure and disable your attackers (and yourself) with noise and muzzle flash, a 7.5" barrel AR is a painful to use novelty item if you don't have a can on it.  And then it's liable to still be as loud as an un-silenced carbine or rifle.
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Well those hand loads sure work around my biggest complaint about such a setup.  I'd want a can on it though, full length rifles are already quite loud and flashy enough for me inside, thanks.    


THIS

Unless you intend to injure and disable your attackers (and yourself) with noise and muzzle flash, a 7.5" barrel AR is a painful to use novelty item if you don't have a can on it.  And then it's liable to still be as loud as an un-silenced carbine or rifle.


Well the flash wont injure me, how much louder do you think a this 7.5" AR is than a 4" handgun with a comp. barrel? They all seem pretty close, would it be safe to assume the 7.5"AR is 170dB-175dB? 164dB from the 357 mag a fairly common HD round. http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml
What is that rule of thumb, a 10dB increase is perceived to be twice as loud.. I think?


One of my 155gr 10mm loads for my Glock shows to have 7700 psi exiting muzzle pressure, the 7.5 AR shows 23500 psi, this is high pressure but is there really enough gas volume to cause concussive damage? I should try an experiment in my bullet trap( very small sealed area) and see what each guns concussion alone will do to fragile objects like an egg or something.......


.........or maybe not, my carry gun is the only thing left out of the safe anyway everything else stays locked up.

Link Posted: 6/13/2015 6:09:50 PM EDT
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What seems like a good idea now won't after you're deaf.

I still don't understand the whole AR pistol thing, but to each their own.


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It's pretty much the same as the SBR thing but you don't have to ask(and pay) the federal Overlords for permission.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 6:13:56 PM EDT
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I've fired one in doors (16 inch though). Don't remember hearing it go off.

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I've fired a 16inch carbine indoors without ear pro on and my ears were ringing for awhile.  Not sure I would want to do so with my 7.5 or 12 inch.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 6:16:10 PM EDT
My 7.5" pistol is a range gun only due to the blast. I have a Noveske KX5 on it, but there's no way I'd want it for HD use. On the rare occasion I shoot it at an indoor range with double hearing protection it still rocks my sinuses. I could see discharging it a hallway disorienting the shooter and the "guest."  Same goes for my 10.5".  Now, suppressed 220g 300 blackout? That's a different story.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 6:21:48 PM EDT
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My 7.5" pistol is a range gun only due to the blast. I have a Noveske KX5 on it, but there's no way I'd want it for HD use. On the rare occasion I shoot it at an indoor range with double hearing protection it still rocks my sinuses. I could see discharging it a hallway disorienting the shooter and the "guest."  Same goes for my 10.5".  Now, suppressed 220g 300 blackout? That's a different story.
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I didn't specifically mention HD, I said close range SD because I too think it may be a bit much indoors without muffs.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 6:27:01 PM EDT
Wonder if 22TCM would make a good round for barrels this short. I'd bet velocity is close and it would be a lot quieter.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 6:39:07 PM EDT
I get the appeal of the ultra short AR. I have a 11.5" SBR as a HDR rifle (with electronic ear pro with it).  I am building up a 10.5" .300 blackout, which will start as a pistol.  I think the .300 has the advantage out of a short barrel, but those TSX's look pretty good too.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 6:42:05 PM EDT
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Wonder if 22TCM would make a good round for barrels this short. I'd bet velocity is close and it would be a lot quieter.
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I doubt one could get 350-450 more FPS with 2"-4" of barrel. I only gained 800 FPS by adding 10.5 inches of bbl. BO'T only got 8" penetration with their 40gr soft points.

I am not sure where you are getting that it would be a lot quieter.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 6:50:20 PM EDT
If the round will frag reliably after making decent penetration at your expected (in house, I assume) engagement distance...

Yes

If it ice picks or, if you have to use such light bullets that you get shallow fragmentation, you are better off with something else.

I run a proper, stocked, 11.5" SBR with a Suppressor.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 6:57:56 PM EDT
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If the round will frag reliably after making decent penetration at your expected (in house, I assume) engagement distance...

Yes

If it ice picks or, if you have to use such light bullets that you get shallow fragmentation, you are better off with something else.

I run a proper, stocked, 11.5" SBR with a Suppressor.
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Why bother with fragmenting ammunition when hollow points are available? I don't have to follow any laws of war.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 7:05:34 PM EDT
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I doubt one could get 350-450 more FPS with 2"-4" of barrel. I only gained 800 FPS by adding 10.5 inches of bbl. BO'T only got 8" penetration with their 40gr soft points.

I am not sure where you are getting that it would be a lot quieter.
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Wonder if 22TCM would make a good round for barrels this short. I'd bet velocity is close and it would be a lot quieter.


I doubt one could get 350-450 more FPS with 2"-4" of barrel. I only gained 800 FPS by adding 10.5 inches of bbl. BO'T only got 8" penetration with their 40gr soft points.

I am not sure where you are getting that it would be a lot quieter.


Just thinking out loud. Shorter barrel so you wouldn't need the additional powder capacity. 22tcm is the closest thing I can think of that fulfills this.

Lower pressure at that barrel length and a lot less powder to burn. It should have much less conussion, not sure why it wouldn't be quieter.

I wonder if it would have the pressure to operate a gas system?
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 7:22:38 PM EDT
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Just thinking out loud. Shorter barrel so you wouldn't need the additional powder capacity. 22tcm is the closest thing I can think of that fulfills this.

Lower pressure at that barrel length and a lot less powder to burn. It should have much less concession, not sure why it wouldn't be quieter.

I wonder if it would have the pressure to operate a gas system?
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Wonder if 22TCM would make a good round for barrels this short. I'd bet velocity is close and it would be a lot quieter.


I doubt one could get 350-450 more FPS with 2"-4" of barrel. I only gained 800 FPS by adding 10.5 inches of bbl. BO'T only got 8" penetration with their 40gr soft points.

I am not sure where you are getting that it would be a lot quieter.


Just thinking out loud. Shorter barrel so you wouldn't need the additional powder capacity. 22tcm is the closest thing I can think of that fulfills this.

Lower pressure at that barrel length and a lot less powder to burn. It should have much less concession, not sure why it wouldn't be quieter.

I wonder if it would have the pressure to operate a gas system?


I would be surprised if it were 15dB quieter. Look at the link with the different firearm dB measurements.


I have not seen any(or looked for any) load data so I have no idea what the operating pressures are but I do know light .223 starting loads wont reliably cycle the action. The cheap factory stuff I tried all cycled it fine so the start loads are really weak. But the point is the 22TCM probably wouldn't produce enough gas and pressure to cycle the standard AR system.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 8:11:57 PM EDT

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I've fired a 16inch carbine indoors without ear pro on and my ears were ringing for awhile.  Not sure I would want to do so with my 7.5 or 12 inch.
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Quoted:



I've fired one in doors (16 inch though). Don't remember hearing it go off.



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile




I've fired a 16inch carbine indoors without ear pro on and my ears were ringing for awhile.  Not sure I would want to do so with my 7.5 or 12 inch.

My partner's ears were ringing pretty good. But I never did hear it.







My 10.5 pistol is plenty loud with ear pro...couldn't imagine firing it without...indoors or out.






 

Link Posted: 6/13/2015 9:42:28 PM EDT
Why not 9mm 147 gr subsonic JHP for some serious hurt within 100 yards?
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 9:49:46 PM EDT


Fort Benning lost about 50 wild pigs to me with this one. It's been effective for deer as well. I figure if it'll drop a 200lb boar, it'll work on a person. Would NOT want to shoot it indoors though
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 9:51:19 PM EDT
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I would be surprised if it were 15dB quieter. Look at the link with the different firearm dB measurements.


I have not seen any(or looked for any) load data so I have no idea what the operating pressures are but I do know light .223 starting loads wont reliably cycle the action. The cheap factory stuff I tried all cycled it fine so the start loads are really weak. But the point is the 22TCM probably wouldn't produce enough gas and pressure to cycle the standard AR system.
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Wonder if 22TCM would make a good round for barrels this short. I'd bet velocity is close and it would be a lot quieter.


I doubt one could get 350-450 more FPS with 2"-4" of barrel. I only gained 800 FPS by adding 10.5 inches of bbl. BO'T only got 8" penetration with their 40gr soft points.

I am not sure where you are getting that it would be a lot quieter.


Just thinking out loud. Shorter barrel so you wouldn't need the additional powder capacity. 22tcm is the closest thing I can think of that fulfills this.

Lower pressure at that barrel length and a lot less powder to burn. It should have much less concession, not sure why it wouldn't be quieter.

I wonder if it would have the pressure to operate a gas system?


I would be surprised if it were 15dB quieter. Look at the link with the different firearm dB measurements.


I have not seen any(or looked for any) load data so I have no idea what the operating pressures are but I do know light .223 starting loads wont reliably cycle the action. The cheap factory stuff I tried all cycled it fine so the start loads are really weak. But the point is the 22TCM probably wouldn't produce enough gas and pressure to cycle the standard AR system.

The 22TCM would need to be recoil operated, just like 9mm/45acp ARs.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 10:05:35 PM EDT
You could make the TCM gas operated, just use a shorter gas system like RMW and Macon Armory are doing with their pistol caliber ARs.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 10:19:56 PM EDT
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You could make the TCM gas operated, just use a shorter gas system like RMW and Macon Armory are doing with their pistol caliber ARs.
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What are the advantages and drawbacks to this?
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 10:25:56 PM EDT

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http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w463/tmann1990/Mobile%20Uploads/20140921_202325_zpszczauytw.jpg



Fort Benning lost about 50 wild pigs to me with this one. It's been effective for deer as well. I figure if it'll drop a 200lb boar, it'll work on a person. Would NOT want to shoot it indoors though
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Details on the gun?  Cool paint job.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 10:28:19 PM EDT
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What are the advantages and drawbacks to this?
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You could make the TCM gas operated, just use a shorter gas system like RMW and Macon Armory are doing with their pistol caliber ARs.


What are the advantages and drawbacks to this?


Less powder so less blast.  Although I don't think the TCM could match the .223, even out of the shorter barrels.  Advantages to gas operated rather than recoil, gas operated only requires minor mods to the AR platform.  Converting it to recoil operated would require some pretty major modifications.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 10:29:36 PM EDT
Fucking pass. Bullet kills assailant, muzzle blast kills you.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 10:37:31 PM EDT
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Why not 9mm 147 gr subsonic JHP for some serious hurt within 100 yards?
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In my particular case, because the same mags/ammo will work in my 16 and 18 rifles as well and I don't load for or own a 9mm.

I built this pistol 7-8 years ago for plinking and thought I would try to make some effective anti-animal ammo for it.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 11:32:05 PM EDT
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It's pretty much the same as the SBR thing but you don't have to ask(and pay) the federal Overlords for permission.
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What seems like a good idea now won't after you're deaf.

I still don't understand the whole AR pistol thing, but to each their own.




It's pretty much the same as the SBR thing but you don't have to ask(and pay) the federal Overlords for permission.


Plus it counts for "concealed" carry (e.g. truck gun) in many states where a "rifle" wouldn't.  (Can't carry a loaded

Personally for HD, I'd pick something else because the "pistol" attribute should be a don't care, and a bullpup with a 16" barrel is more gun for about the same OAL.  With that said, the 7.5" Adams piston gun I built is a riot, and I don't think the muzzle blast is anything of note.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 11:34:30 PM EDT
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Less powder so less blast.  Although I don't think the TCM could match the .223, even out of the shorter barrels.  Advantages to gas operated rather than recoil, gas operated only requires minor mods to the AR platform.  Converting it to recoil operated would require some pretty major modifications.
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You could make the TCM gas operated, just use a shorter gas system like RMW and Macon Armory are doing with their pistol caliber ARs.


What are the advantages and drawbacks to this?


Less powder so less blast.  Although I don't think the TCM could match the .223, even out of the shorter barrels.  Advantages to gas operated rather than recoil, gas operated only requires minor mods to the AR platform.  Converting it to recoil operated would require some pretty major modifications.



Current pistol caliber blowback operated ARs don't require any special mods other than the correct bolt, barrel, spring and buffer.
Link Posted: 6/13/2015 11:41:22 PM EDT
We all have our dreams and fantasies, but in reality any weapon intended for use indoors should be suppressed.
Link Posted: 6/14/2015 12:10:28 AM EDT
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  Details on the gun?  Cool paint job.
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Fort Benning lost about 50 wild pigs to me with this one. It's been effective for deer as well. I figure if it'll drop a 200lb boar, it'll work on a person. Would NOT want to shoot it indoors though

  Details on the gun?  Cool paint job.


Spare parts bin gun that I threw together.
Aero upper and lower
Daniel Defense LPK
MAS Defense 7.5" barrel
Rainier Evo rail that I chopped to 6"
KAK flashcan and sig brace tube
JP silent spring
Sig brace
Primary arms micro
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