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Posted: 9/30/2005 8:43:23 AM EDT
NYPDs' 77-Shot Barrage Probed
LARRY CELONA
Courtesy of New York Post


The NYPD has launched an investigation into why cops fired 77 shots at an armed parolee during an East Harlem shootout.

The NYPD's Internal Affairs Bureau will look into the Wednesday shooting involving six officers and Cedric Rooks, 25, near the Taft Houses on 115th Street and Fifth Avenue.

Rooks, who was in stable condition at Harlem Hospital yesterday, was hit three times — in the hip, left shoulder and neck.

Sounds like all 6 empties their guns.


Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:45:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 8:45:42 AM EDT by ArmedAggie]
Damn, they've been practicing. They're getting better...

The investigation is to find out what they're doing RIGHT. They're going to be promoted to training officers.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:50:01 AM EDT
They must be taking firing lessons from Iraqi insurgents...
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:52:40 AM EDT
was a dog around? jeeze what horrible shots
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 8:56:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:35:10 AM EDT

Hey the ammo is free! Shoot all you want right?
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:36:56 AM EDT
People miss in gunfights.

If you think you won't ever miss in a gunfight, then you should stick to airsoft.

Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:37:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:39:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:39:47 AM EDT
Another reason cops shouldn't have machineguns.

They should carry single shot pistols. That way they will learn to make that one shot count.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:41:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 9:42:09 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
People miss in gunfights.

If you think you won't ever miss in a gunfight, then you should stick to airsoft.




I miss without being in gunfights, but I'd be willing to bet the 3 for 77 team hadn't exactly been burning up the practice ammo lately....



They probably were not shooting at a stationary target. The bad guy here was armed. Was the bad guy armed with a gun? Did the bad guy shoot back? How long did the engagement take? How much distance was covered by the perp? What were the lighting conditions? What was the range of initial engagement?

All questions that little blurb does not answer, but that might shed a whole lot of light on the nature of this engagement.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:41:55 AM EDT
What is your hit percentage in a real world shooting?


There is always lots to talk, but its always from the guys who've never been shot at or involved in a shoting.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:42:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
What is your hit percentage in a real world shooting?


There is always lots to talk, but its always from the guys who've never been shot at or involved in a shoting.



Bingo.

Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:43:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
People miss in gunfights.

If you think you won't ever miss in a gunfight, then you should stick to airsoft.




I was going to say about the same thing.

I have never been in a gunfight (hopefully never will) but I suspect it is a lot different than a day at the range.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:48:47 AM EDT
What was the rounds fired per hit again in Vn? I forget if it was 10,000:1 or 100,000:1
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:49:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:51:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Makarov:
I was going to say about the same thing.

I have never been in a gunfight (hopefully never will) but I suspect it is a lot different than a day at the range.



It is.

Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:52:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By Stickman:
What is your hit percentage in a real world shooting?


There is always lots to talk, but its always from the guys who've never been shot at or involved in a shoting.



I've never done heart surgery either, but I'll pass on a surgeon who kills 74 out of 77 of his patients.

Maybe Cedric was a master of using cover like a Whack a Mole, but...




Actually wouldn't that be "the surgeon that goes somewhere besides the operating roon 74 out of 77 times?"
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:53:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
What was the rounds fired per hit again in Vn? I forget if it was 10,000:1 or 100,000:1



I bet it's even higher for OIF. My experience showed that most of my 'joes' would fire an entire mag or more with ZERO hits.

Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:54:37 AM EDT
Remember.....Paper targets don't move, duck, spin and return fire.

People do, and a real gun fight is no picnic.

I doubt that those that have real world experience wouldn't criticize the shooting. They know better.

Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:55:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
What was the rounds fired per hit again in Vn? I forget if it was 10,000:1 or 100,000:1



That is why M16s were converted to burst mode, IIRC.

Guys would engage the enemy and just start dumping
mags (not that I blame them).
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:57:29 AM EDT

Sounds like all 6 empties their guns.


I would. You don't get paid extra for unused ammo at the end of the day.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 9:58:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
What was the rounds fired per hit again in Vn? I forget if it was 10,000:1 or 100,000:1



That is why M16s were converted to burst mode, IIRC.

Guys would engage the enemy and just start dumping
mags (not that I blame them).



It doesn't help that often in the .mil you don't even see the enemy to be able to shoot at him.

Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:02:05 AM EDT
I understand that shooting in real-life combat is stressful and difficult, but only 3 hits out of 77, with 6 trained shooters ? That's really, really bad, I don't care who you are, sounds to me like they need better training. Oh yeah, did any of them actually reload their weapons ?
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:03:47 AM EDT
Could some of it have been used for suppressive fire?
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:15:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Makarov:
I have never been in a gunfight (hopefully never will) but I suspect it is a lot different than a day at the range.



"Wait, wait! What is this 'shoot back' part."
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:18:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bob1984:
I understand that shooting in real-life combat is stressful and difficult, but only 3 hits out of 77, with 6 trained shooters ? That's really, really bad, I don't care who you are, sounds to me like they need better training. Oh yeah, did any of them actually reload their weapons ?



Again, looking only at the number of rounds fired absent any other information is not a legitimate way to figure out what happened and whether or not the officers were clueless idiots who couldn't hit their own foot with a hammer.

There are a lot of dynamics going on in a firefight that need to be examined to get a good answer on something like that.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:21:04 AM EDT
You'll get no sympathy from me.

Too many occurances of the same scenerio. The shootout in Lubbock Texas where the cops did a "break & rake" on an unarmed persons home. In the process shot other houses and killed one of their own.

Another case where 6 officers fired on a suspect with a Target drawn on his chest and got one shoulder hit slightly wounding him.

The Diallo incident in NY.

Stupid frigging sheeple raise hell over "Why didn't you shoot the gun out of his hand?" "Why didn't you just wound him?" Hell, they are doing good to hit the perp all together and you want them to do Roy Rodgers trick shots? WTF?!

Yeah, shooting at paper is a whle different story. That's why they make Simunitions.

I know cops that are given a monthly ammo allotment and they decline to use it. Other have unlimted ammo and range use and never use it.

More than one occassion locally I've seen free professional training offered to any active LE officer only to have 6 to 8 cops show up if they were lucky.

I know it is rare for most cops to be involved in armed confrontation, but I'd rather be prepared & not need it than need it & not prepared which seems to be the status quo among the LE community.

Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:29:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
What is your hit percentage in a real world shooting?


There is always lots to talk, but its always from the guys who've never been shot at or involved in a shoting.



Actually, in this case I think it is from people just poking a little fun. Relax, it's just in jest. And my airsoft aim is weak, too.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:29:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CS223:
You'll get no sympathy from me.

Too many occurances of the same scenerio. The shootout in Lubbock Texas where the cops did a "break & rake" on an unarmed persons home. In the process shot other houses and killed one of their own.



Highly trained special operations forces who spend hundreds of hours a year doing live fire training have also killed their own on occasion.

Does that make them lazy and irresponsible?



Another case where 6 officers fired on a suspect with a Target drawn on his chest and got one shoulder hit slightly wounding him.



What range were the officers at? What was the suspect shooting at them with?



The Diallo incident in NY.



You don't ever rely on the other guy to stop a threat unless you are on an entry team and know the fellow that is backing you up.



Stupid frigging sheeple raise hell over "Why didn't you shoot the gun out of his hand?" "Why didn't you just wound him?" Hell, they are doing good to hit the perp all together and you want them to do Roy Rodgers trick shots? WTF?!



ANYONE is doing good if they can make a good hit while being shot at.



Yeah, shooting at paper is a whle different story. That's why they make Simunitions.



Simunitions are intense, and as close to the real thing as we can get.

But even then all the participants know it isn't real and know that they won't die. One's mortality tends to make a difference. I have done things using simunitions I would NEVER do using real ammo.



I know cops that are given a monthly ammo allotment and they decline to use it.



We all do.



Other have unlimted ammo and range use and never use it.



That is the rare exception. I think you will find most departments struggle to provide any training at all.



More than one occassion locally I've seen free professional training offered to any active LE officer only to have 6 to 8 cops show up if they were lucky.



Cops do a lot of training. (Most places have a minumum number of hours to spend in officer training) But that training covers all sorts of things, not just firearms.



I know it is rare for most cops to be involved in armed confrontation, but I'd rather be prepared & not need it than need it & not prepared which seems to be the status quo among the LE community.



Firearms training is not stellar among police as a whole, but there are reasons for that. You can't do anything without money, and training with firearms costs a whole lot of money. Being a police officer is a lot harder than most people realize.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:33:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 10:34:45 AM EDT by ArmedAggie]
I'd like to know what the statistics would have been had there been a dog within 100 yards...

(again, a joke for you anal types)


AHHHH, I just heard that they kept shooting the shadow puppet OF a dog that the perp kept doing in their flashlight beams. The scored hits on the man were pure accident.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:33:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:36:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 10:37:25 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By Wave:
Not enough trigger time + 12lb triggerpull + night shoot + adrenalin rush = .........



Ah!

Now we are getting somewhere!! NYPD has Glocks. With extra heavy triggers.

Glocks suck for precision shooting when they have NORMAL triggers. Add in low light, the threat to life and limb and accompanying adrenaline rush, movement, and I dare say that most if not a great majority of people would have ended up with the same number of misses or worse.

Being in a gunfight isn't easy, folks.

Some PDs like to strap their officers with weapons that are difficult to fire, because that is "safer" than giving them a weapon like a 1911 that you can shoot more easily under stress.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:42:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 10:53:01 AM EDT by Combat_Jack]

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
People miss in gunfights.

If you think you won't ever miss in a gunfight, then you should stick to airsoft.



Not only is that worse than the national average, thats worse than NYPDs already abysmal average.

Hell, the four guys that killed Amadou Diallo are Olympic level shooters by comparison!

ETA: Misses are understandable. But 74 misses in 77 shots!? Thats incredibly unsafe, for one.

The closest I have been to a gunfight is a simulated gunfight with sims guns. I'm used to a 1911, was shooting a Glock and an AR with an Aimpoint that had not dot. I know for a fact I hit better than 50% of the time, although we didn't count hits. Could have been up to 100, we'll never know.

Now I know that sims guns and the real thing are different, But if I can do fifty percent in an excercise these guys ought to be able to do 10% on game day.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:44:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
What was the rounds fired per hit again in Vn? I forget if it was 10,000:1 or 100,000:1



Firstly, those numbers have been discredited due to their horrible inaccuracy, and secondly, military fire and maneuver warfare and what happens between six cops and one parolee have little in common.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:53:03 AM EDT

In an Urban setting, 6 Police Officer shot 77 rounds at some POS. OK, so I would ASSume that before one goes off yanking the trigger that many times in this setting you would be relatively close to the target, be sure you're not shooting all the people behind the POS, and likely know where the person is that your shooting at.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:57:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
What was the rounds fired per hit again in Vn? I forget if it was 10,000:1 or 100,000:1



I think that was because they were using f/a M16s, not service pistols.
I understand you miss in gunfights, but they had a 4% hit rate in this gunfight you mention.
This doesn't mean cops are shitty shots, but those guys are.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 10:59:37 AM EDT
Remember the last big shootout in CA? Like 20 some cops vs. SUV? Once one starts shooting, they all shoot to slide lock. It's something else.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:00:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
What was the rounds fired per hit again in Vn? I forget if it was 10,000:1 or 100,000:1



I think that was because they were using f/a M16s, not service pistols.
I understand you miss in gunfights, but they had a 4% hit rate in this gunfight you mention.
This doesn't mean cops are shitty shots, but those guys are.



I am pretty sure doctrine at that time heavily emphasized full auto area fire rather than aimed fire. That statistic above was one of the driving factors behind the decision to go from full auto to three round burst.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:03:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Wave:
Not enough trigger time + 12lb triggerpull + night shoot + adrenalin rush = .........



Ah!

Now we are getting somewhere!! NYPD has Glocks. With extra heavy triggers.

Glocks suck for precision shooting when they have NORMAL triggers. Add in low light, the threat to life and limb and accompanying adrenaline rush, movement, and I dare say that most if not a great majority of people would have ended up with the same number of misses or worse.

Being in a gunfight isn't easy, folks.

Some PDs like to strap their officers with weapons that are difficult to fire, because that is "safer" than giving them a weapon like a 1911 that you can shoot more easily under stress.



They also carry S&W and SIG
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:04:41 AM EDT
typical "spray and pray" alot of cops do this
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:05:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

Sounds like all 6 empties their guns.


I would. You don't get paid extra for unused ammo at the end of the day.

And you'd get sued. And you wouldn't be the first. "perceived overkill"
I've worked retail for a LONG time. been robbed several times. Never seen a gun pulled that wasn't shaking all over the fucking place. That was without any shooting.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:07:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 11:12:58 AM EDT by DonS]

Originally Posted By Stickman:
What is your hit percentage in a real world shooting?


There is always lots to talk, but its always from the guys who've never been shot at or involved in a shoting.



It is about 50% for single cop shootings. When it is a "bunch" shooting, the round count goes up, hits go down . . .

www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:08:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Wave:
Not enough trigger time + 12lb triggerpull + night shoot + adrenalin rush = .........



Ah!

Now we are getting somewhere!! NYPD has Glocks. With extra heavy triggers.

Glocks suck for precision shooting when they have NORMAL triggers. Add in low light, the threat to life and limb and accompanying adrenaline rush, movement, and I dare say that most if not a great majority of people would have ended up with the same number of misses or worse.

Being in a gunfight isn't easy, folks.

Some PDs like to strap their officers with weapons that are difficult to fire, because that is "safer" than giving them a weapon like a 1911 that you can shoot more easily under stress.



+1, would make a ton of sense if this is in fact the case.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:12:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
What was the rounds fired per hit again in Vn? I forget if it was 10,000:1 or 100,000:1


That's an assinine comparison. Vietnam=warzone. NYC=America. VN=many enemy troops. NYC=One suspect.

I don't mind that they missed. I do mind that they missed that much. I do mind comparing a police shootout with a fucking war.

Assinine.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:14:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
The closest I have been to a gunfight is a simulated gunfight with sims guns. <snip> But if I can do fifty percent in an excercise these guys ought to be able to do 10% on game day.



You knew you were going to a gunfight. They did not. Funny how the real world always happens when I need to pee, etc...
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:15:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bob1984:
I understand that shooting in real-life combat is stressful and difficult, but only 3 hits out of 77, with 6 trained shooters ?


That's part of the problem. We makes cops qualify MAYBE four times a year. Many cops don't like guns and only shoot when they have to. I would imagine NYPD and other Northeastern police departments have more of those officers as a percentage than the Midwest or the South.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:17:10 AM EDT
The 12 pound trigger pull - supposedly for safety? (no "AD"s).
Given Wave's equation, what does that mean for safety when you have to fire at a guy who has other people nearby (not even a hostage situation?)
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:17:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Glocks suck for precision shooting when they have NORMAL triggers.


Oh please.
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:18:21 AM EDT
I like the crappy triggers theory.

As for "suppressive fire" these are POLICE. No suppressive fire, recon by fire or any other military nonsense for these guys. There is NO place for such tactics for patrolmen. Why do cops fire until dry once one starts firing if they can't see a target/threat? Are they not taught to think for themselves?

Cops seriously need more training. Should there be some kind of federal standard to meet? I don't really favor regulation like this, but how can this be forced on departments? I'd rather have one trained shooter out there than four untrained if money is your sole reason against it. If the guys can't shoot, don't give them more than spray and tazers!
Link Posted: 9/30/2005 11:29:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2005 11:31:11 AM EDT by RenegadeX]
Completely predictable according to Renegade's Rule of Group Shooting which says:

"In any firefight, the hit rate is inversely proportional to the number of shooters".
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