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Posted: 12/30/2015 7:52:19 AM EDT
Can't sleep, watching The Patriot again.

What if 5 grunts are defending Aunt Charlotte's plantation home against 50 of His Majesty's finest Dragoon horsemen?  Who wins?


England brings:

Any and all equipment a force of 50 Dragoons would have in the time of the American Revolution.


'Merica brings:

-M4s/M16s and M9s only, one DMR any kind.  Say 6 standard mags on each guy.

-No MGs, SAWs, frags, claymores, AT4s, mortars, close air support, etc.

-No radios or comms of any kind besides shouting at each other.

-No nvgs or thermals.

-No kevlar or sapi plates.

-Fire extinguishers



Can our troops defend the plantation and defeat all the cavalry?  Support your answer.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 7:53:27 AM EDT
Yes.  
I support my answer with WW1 and the Boer War and god damned common sense.

Link Posted: 12/30/2015 7:56:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
Can't sleep, watching The Patriot again.

What if 5 grunts are defending Aunt Charlotte's plantation home against 50 of His Majesty's finest Dragoon horsemen?  Who wins?


England brings:

Any and all equipment a force of 50 Dragoons would have in the time of the American Revolution.


'Merica brings:

-M4s/M16s and M9s only, one DMR any kind.  Say 6 standard mags on each guy.

-No MGs, SAWs, frags, claymores, AT4s, mortars, close air support, etc.

-No radios or comms of any kind besides shouting at each other.

-No nvgs or thermals.

-No kevlar or sapi plates.

-Fire extinguishers



Can our troops defend the plantation and defeat all the cavalry?  Support your answer.
View Quote

7s a combat load, you fail. Dragoons win.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 7:57:57 AM EDT
US wins when the Brits stop for a "brew-up".
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 7:58:08 AM EDT
5 grunts w/ 180 rounds of 5.56 each? (Not even counting pistol ammo)

vs.

50 guys with muskets or blunderbusses?



The grunts win. No question about it.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:00:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2015 8:06:24 AM EDT by scotchymcdrinkerbean]
Spaceman Spiff crashes on the plantation, pursued by a horde of vile Zorgs, who wipe out both the dragoons and the grunts in the ensuing violence.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:01:02 AM EDT
Depends. After a cup of Earl Grey each Dragoon is worth 2 regular men
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:03:26 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Spaceman Spiff crashes on the plantation, pursued by a horde of vile Zorgs, who wipe out both the dragons and the grunts in the ensuing violence.
View Quote

Man, I didn't even think about Spaceman Spiff

I'm going to go with this - it's just good common sense.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:04:14 AM EDT
Even the shittiest shot could nail a horse @500m, walking cavalry aint too effective



They won't even get within musket range before they're all dead
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:05:55 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MACD:
Even the shittiest shot could nail a horse @500m, walking cavalry aint too effective

They won't even get within musket range before they're all dead
View Quote

Just to be pedantic for a moment, dragoons aren't really cavalry.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:08:23 AM EDT
I would assume that Aunt Charlotte's plantation home would offer some positions of cover… possibly even a rooftop position…
With that being the case I’d wager that as few as 2 maybe even 1 well trained modern rifleman could emerge victorious in the a battle with 50 18th century British Dragoons.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:08:47 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By MACD:
Even the shittiest shot could nail a horse @500m, walking cavalry aint too effective

They won't even get within musket range before they're all dead
View Quote

Not sure there's even 100m of open space approaching Aunt Charlotte's plantation home.  Oh and it's nighttime.

Is it a close fight, or does technology and 240 years of refining warfare tear the redcoats asunder?
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:10:48 AM EDT
You'd really only have to kill a few at what to them would seem to be inhumanly long range before the rest broke and ran.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:11:24 AM EDT
The only advantage the dragoons have is mobility, although horses can also be surprisingly quiet in the bush (something the Rhodesians and Portuguese used to their advantage in modern Africa).  Given that mounted charges have in the 20th century routed troops possessing repeating rifles and machine guns, I would imagine that if the terrain allows for their movements to be masked until the dragoons are in close enough proximity that the dragoons might well have a chance.  If they have to advance a good distance in the open then they are almost certainly screwed.  If they fought dismounted, they would almost certainly lose as well.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:13:23 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Dominus:
You'd really only have to kill a few at what to them would seem to be inhumanly long range before the rest broke and ran.
View Quote


Depends on their appreciation of the relative force levels.  Drop a few of them beyond musket range, and they might just assume the plantation is defended by more than five people armed with rifles.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:14:31 AM EDT
Need pictures of Aunt Charlotte to determine if she should be defended.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:16:57 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:
Need pictures of Aunt Charlotte to determine if she should be defended.
View Quote

Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:17:47 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:

Not sure there's even 100m of open space approaching Aunt Charlotte's plantation home.  Oh and it's nighttime.

Is it a close fight, or does technology and 240 years of refining warfare tear the redcoats asunder?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
Originally Posted By MACD:
Even the shittiest shot could nail a horse @500m, walking cavalry aint too effective

They won't even get within musket range before they're all dead

Not sure there's even 100m of open space approaching Aunt Charlotte's plantation home.  Oh and it's nighttime.

Is it a close fight, or does technology and 240 years of refining warfare tear the redcoats asunder?


You're changing the parameters of the problem.

Night time, no night vision, no armor, and no ability to utilize the range advantage?  Yeah, the chap in charge of the dragoons may just decide that whatever the initial importance of the plantation as an objective is meaningless given the apparent rate of fire of what the defenders are employing, restrict the bulk of his remaining men to containing the place, and send a couple chaps off to get a whole mess of friends to storm the place.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:18:40 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:


You're changing the parameters of the problem.


Night time, no night vision, no armor, and no ability to utilize the range advantage?  Yeah, the chap in charge of the dragoons may just decide that whatever the initial importance of the plantation as an objective is meaningless given the apparent rate of fire of what the defenders are employing, restrict the bulk of his remaining men to containing the place, and send a couple chaps off to get a whole mess of friends to storm the place.
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Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
Originally Posted By MACD:
Even the shittiest shot could nail a horse @500m, walking cavalry aint too effective

They won't even get within musket range before they're all dead

Not sure there's even 100m of open space approaching Aunt Charlotte's plantation home.  Oh and it's nighttime.

Is it a close fight, or does technology and 240 years of refining warfare tear the redcoats asunder?


You're changing the parameters of the problem.


Night time, no night vision, no armor, and no ability to utilize the range advantage?  Yeah, the chap in charge of the dragoons may just decide that whatever the initial importance of the plantation as an objective is meaningless given the apparent rate of fire of what the defenders are employing, restrict the bulk of his remaining men to containing the place, and send a couple chaps off to get a whole mess of friends to storm the place.


Yeah my bad.  I was watching that scene where the Dragoons approach at night and the kid is on watch.  I should have specified.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:19:01 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Yes.  
I support my answer with WW1 and the Boer War and god damned common sense.

View Quote


Now what a damn minute! You guys here @ AR15.com says we can't use common sense, that it was last seen in the 80's.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:21:53 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:

Not sure there's even 100m of open space approaching Aunt Charlotte's plantation home.  Oh and it's nighttime.

Is it a close fight, or does technology and 240 years of refining warfare tear the redcoats asunder?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
Originally Posted By MACD:
Even the shittiest shot could nail a horse @500m, walking cavalry aint too effective

They won't even get within musket range before they're all dead

Not sure there's even 100m of open space approaching Aunt Charlotte's plantation home.  Oh and it's nighttime.

Is it a close fight, or does technology and 240 years of refining warfare tear the redcoats asunder?


Five drunken heavy sixes covered in cheetos dust and shame could win in the scenario you have designed.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:23:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2015 8:28:29 AM EDT by Tankdawg0057]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Undefined:
5 grunts w/ 180 rounds of 5.56 each? (Not even counting pistol ammo)

vs.

50 guys with muskets or blunderbusses?



The grunts win. No question about it.
View Quote


This.  Maximum effective range of muskets are like 100-200 yards and that's a stretch.  Modern rifles would pick them off at 400 yards till they run away.  This is no contest.

ETA: Even with added parameters, grunts still win.  After seeing full auto fire coming from the defenders position.  The dragoons haul ass out of there after taking some losses.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:23:57 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Yes.  
I support my answer with WW1 and the Boer War and god damned common sense.

View Quote


you obviously don't know what the hell you are talking about.
history is dumb and proves nothing.   50 well trained musketeers could fire 150 shots a minute. that's a lot of ~50 caliber shots at almost 1000 pfs!

compared to your pathetic little .223 bullets going twice as fast with each guy able to deliver a mere ~100 rounds per minute (of those tine bullets)

you, sir, are clearly out of your lane here.

































Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:24:28 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:

http://i.imgur.com/lMdCNvm.jpg
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Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:
Need pictures of Aunt Charlotte to determine if she should be defended.

http://i.imgur.com/lMdCNvm.jpg



Somethings (2) are worth defending
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:29:34 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:


You're changing the parameters of the problem.

Night time, no night vision, no armor, and no ability to utilize the range advantage?  Yeah, the chap in charge of the dragoons may just decide that whatever the initial importance of the plantation as an objective is meaningless given the apparent rate of fire of what the defenders are employing, restrict the bulk of his remaining men to containing the place, and send a couple chaps off to get a whole mess of friends to storm the place.
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Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
Originally Posted By MACD:
Even the shittiest shot could nail a horse @500m, walking cavalry aint too effective

They won't even get within musket range before they're all dead

Not sure there's even 100m of open space approaching Aunt Charlotte's plantation home.  Oh and it's nighttime.

Is it a close fight, or does technology and 240 years of refining warfare tear the redcoats asunder?


You're changing the parameters of the problem.

Night time, no night vision, no armor, and no ability to utilize the range advantage?  Yeah, the chap in charge of the dragoons may just decide that whatever the initial importance of the plantation as an objective is meaningless given the apparent rate of fire of what the defenders are employing, restrict the bulk of his remaining men to containing the place, and send a couple chaps off to get a whole mess of friends to storm the place.



I missed the reference to the plantation from The Patriot.  If they come up on the place suddenly like that they could very well overwhelm the defenders, provided that they are all outside.  If they are not, good luck to them trying to clear them out (then again, they could just fire the house).
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:30:53 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Undefined:


Five drunken heavy sixes covered in cheetos dust and shame could win in the scenario you have designed.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Undefined:
Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
Originally Posted By MACD:
Even the shittiest shot could nail a horse @500m, walking cavalry aint too effective

They won't even get within musket range before they're all dead

Not sure there's even 100m of open space approaching Aunt Charlotte's plantation home.  Oh and it's nighttime.

Is it a close fight, or does technology and 240 years of refining warfare tear the redcoats asunder?


Five drunken heavy sixes covered in cheetos dust and shame could win in the scenario you have designed.


Wait one fucking minute....


.... What about the dried sticky sheen of spilled mountain dew that has dried on my bare cheeto dust covered belly?
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:38:43 AM EDT
5 grunts easily.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:52:17 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bigstick61:



I missed the reference to the plantation from The Patriot.  If they come up on the place suddenly like that they could very well overwhelm the defenders, provided that they are all outside.  If they are not, good luck to them trying to clear them out (then again, they could just fire the house).
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Originally Posted By bigstick61:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
Originally Posted By MACD:
Even the shittiest shot could nail a horse @500m, walking cavalry aint too effective

They won't even get within musket range before they're all dead

Not sure there's even 100m of open space approaching Aunt Charlotte's plantation home.  Oh and it's nighttime.

Is it a close fight, or does technology and 240 years of refining warfare tear the redcoats asunder?


You're changing the parameters of the problem.

Night time, no night vision, no armor, and no ability to utilize the range advantage?  Yeah, the chap in charge of the dragoons may just decide that whatever the initial importance of the plantation as an objective is meaningless given the apparent rate of fire of what the defenders are employing, restrict the bulk of his remaining men to containing the place, and send a couple chaps off to get a whole mess of friends to storm the place.



I missed the reference to the plantation from The Patriot.  If they come up on the place suddenly like that they could very well overwhelm the defenders, provided that they are all outside.  If they are not, good luck to them trying to clear them out (then again, they could just fire the house).


Eh, if the rate of fire of the defenders is discovered, I think firing the house is going to be right out.  I think the number of acceptable losses would go up (and the number of reinforcements requested,) as the desire to secure control of whatever the defenders were using would be quite high.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 8:58:28 AM EDT
A full auto burst overhead and the dragoons hightail it the fuck out of there.


Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:02:39 AM EDT
Are the grunts allowed to draw cocks on the walls of the plantation shithouse? if  yes- Morale is high, grunts win.  If no - E=4 Mafia sits this one out, Dragoons draw 18th century grafitti on shithouse walls
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:02:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2015 9:06:28 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
Not a proper T/E for the American Infantry.

If there are four, there would be a SAW and M203 and NVG/IR lasers all around.

Make it a WWII fire team, if you want them neutered.  
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:05:57 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:

http://i.imgur.com/lMdCNvm.jpg
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Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
Originally Posted By MBUZICHOMA:
Need pictures of Aunt Charlotte to determine if she should be defended.

http://i.imgur.com/lMdCNvm.jpg


Nice! I'd defend the shit out of her!
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:11:29 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Spaceman Spiff crashes on the plantation, pursued by a horde of vile Zorgs, who wipe out both the dragoons and the grunts in the ensuing violence.
View Quote

Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:27:08 AM EDT
Unless the dragoons have artillery, they all die. Defenders take zero casualties.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:30:32 AM EDT
Army wouldn't even use half of their ammo.

Do the Brits know what they are up against, and adjust their tactics, or just swoop in and get ground up like hamburger?
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:31:01 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Not a proper T/E for the American Infantry.

If there are four, there would be a SAW and M203 and NVG/IR lasers all around.

Make it a WWII fire team, if you want them neutered.  
View Quote

Yeah, I'm going with the guys who fought and killed the Japs at night.

Again, all dragoons dead and zero friendly casualties.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:31:19 AM EDT
How about one guy with an ar15 and 8 mags?

Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:32:31 AM EDT
The local Pub wins!
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:33:43 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By patchouli:
How about one guy with an ar15 and 8 mags?

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Maybe your standard 3 gunner that shoots better than mil/le could do it by himself.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:36:24 AM EDT
But what are the rules of engagement?  
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:36:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2015 9:46:12 AM EDT by Indrid-Cold]
I did not see any time limit in OP's engagement parameters for this.

After initial contact could the Dragoons regroup then........

Surround and starve them out.

Dig narrow trenches till close range then toss fire on structure.

Adapt to siege tactics utilizing nearby timber for source material.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:42:46 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BigMat:
But what are the rules of engagement?  
View Quote


England: Destroy the house, kill all occupants with extreme prejudice.

'Merica: Destroy enemy combatants with extreme prejudice.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:43:09 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By patchouli:
How about one guy with an ar15 and 8 mags?

View Quote


Gimme 8 surefire 60's and I'll do it.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:44:12 AM EDT
season 1 episode 3 of Revolution featured one bolt action dmr with a bag of ammo devastating a musket militia group
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:52:21 AM EDT
Dragoons win, the grunts are stuck in a SHARP class.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 9:56:47 AM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dominus:


You'd really only have to kill a few at what to them would seem to be inhumanly long range before the rest broke and ran.
View Quote


This.  Plus with the volume of fire, they'd think there was a battalion guarding the house, not five guys.



 
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 10:01:20 AM EDT
Fire extinguisher to create a smoke screen and run like hell cuz I don't know what round can take down horses and pierce the sabers
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 10:05:47 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By dillehayd:
Unless the dragoons have artillery, they all die. Defenders take zero casualties.
View Quote


Even then, not necessarily.  Field Artillery tactics and technology started changing drastically once modern rifles came about, because rifleman could often engage artillery crews at the gun's effective range, especially for a point target and a light gun.  But that process really got going over a hundred years later.  

Link Posted: 12/30/2015 10:09:56 AM EDT
If the grunts are on their toes and engage His Majesty's Dragoons before they reach the house, no problem, turkey shoot.

If they are sampling the wine cellar and get surprised, all bets are off.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 10:11:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2015 10:15:04 AM EDT by snakes19]
A more interesting discussion would be the reverse. 50 dug in soldiers armed with muskets vs a small group of modern equipped soldiers(just M4s) attacking.
Link Posted: 12/30/2015 10:13:05 AM EDT
More interesting question...

Could those same 5 grunts with the same load out have changed the outcome of the Battle of the Alamo?

Assuming they were fighting alongside the existing defenders.
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