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Posted: 10/17/2016 1:38:10 PM EDT
[#1]
Open differentials are the norm...better in snow but weak off-road. An E-locker is better.
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Posted: 10/17/2016 1:51:29 PM EDT
[#2]
How is the open differential going to perform better in snow? Isn't one of the disadvantages to open diff that it allows the power to go to the tire with the least resistance?
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Posted: 10/17/2016 2:16:22 PM EDT
[#3]
If you're not doing serious offloading a trutrack limited slip is the way to go almost as good as
A locker and a big improvement over open diffs,I have a jeep no with lockers but I do a lot of rock crawling |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 2:32:40 PM EDT
[#4]
A locker will directly connect the two axles together, so it acts like a spool. They can be automatic (like a detroit locker, or Aussie Locker), or selectable.
I really prefer the Auburn Ected type. It's a limited slip diff (where the spider gears have clutch packs and springs to allow slippage, but always have resistance between the axles) when it's unlocked, and well, locked, when it's locked. In my bronco, I have a Detroit Tru-Trac Torsen (TORque SENsing) type posi, where it acts like an open diff (has really good road manners) until there's a difference in rotation between the right and left axles, where it starts to bind up the gears inside and transfer power... that's in the front, and the rear has an Auburn Posi (not an ected) which is a clutch type. If you really want all wheels being driven for getting into (and hopefully out of) bad situations, lockers are the way to go. The transaxle in my SRT-4 has a Quaife Torsen LSD in it from the factory, too. Traction aides in the axles IMHO are more important than lifts, and just behind good tires. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 2:34:23 PM EDT
[#5]
A 4WD with open diffs is a 2WD...if it has a locking transfer case.
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Posted: 10/17/2016 2:51:25 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How is the open differential going to perform better in snow? Isn't one of the disadvantages to open diff that it allows the power to go to the tire with the least resistance? You'll spin one tire instead of both on one end. That's more controllable. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 2:56:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A 4WD with open diffs is a 2WD...if it has a locking transfer case.  |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 3:25:27 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A 4WD with open diffs is a 2WD...if it has a locking transfer case. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 3:33:20 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A locker will directly connect the two axles together, so it acts like a spool. They can be automatic (like a detroit locker, or Aussie Locker), or selectable. I really prefer the Auburn Ected type. It's a limited slip diff (where the spider gears have clutch packs and springs to allow slippage, but always have resistance between the axles) when it's unlocked, and well, locked, when it's locked. In my bronco, I have a Detroit Tru-Trac Torsen (TORque SENsing) type posi, where it acts like an open diff (has really good road manners) until there's a difference in rotation between the right and left axles, where it starts to bind up the gears inside and transfer power... that's in the front, and the rear has an Auburn Posi (not an ected) which is a clutch type. If you really want all wheels being driven for getting into (and hopefully out of) bad situations, lockers are the way to go. The transaxle in my SRT-4 has a Quaife Torsen LSD in it from the factory, too. Traction aides in the axles IMHO are more important than lifts, and just behind good tires. This guy is correct. I'd even rate traction axles as equals to good tires as they both work together. Bad tires or an open diff are almost equally bad in any given situation....but together Good tires and a traction axle can do amazing things. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 3:34:23 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You'll spin one tire instead of both on one end. That's more controllable. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How is the open differential going to perform better in snow? Isn't one of the disadvantages to open diff that it allows the power to go to the tire with the least resistance? You'll spin one tire instead of both on one end. That's more controllable. Yet myself and a lot of people I know get by great with LSD's in snow and ice. Sounds more like experience and training leading to personal preference than it does any inherent advantage. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 3:55:29 PM EDT
[#11]
My Ranger with no weight in the back, 31" mud tires and a tight limited slip will kick the rear out on demand in 2wd on slick pavement. Not even fun to drive. You touch the throttle and you go sideways. In 4wd it is a tank though despite being light and having mud tires.
My dd F-150 is open on both ends, if it is slick and you get overzelous in 2wd you spin a tire. Big whoop, no drama. The only times it has been stuck in snow it hasn't had a tire on the ground anyway. I think most factory setups have a speed limit you can use the lockers up to before they kick out. I have gotten along pretty good with open diffs in my F-150, if I was to ever get a newer one I might look for the locker option. Just because trying to get around in wet grass around it gets annoying to use 4wd and have it buck. For winter... I haven't really missed it especially if I don't go looking for trouble. And that is considering it takes the county two days to plow my gravel road too. And a open 4x4 does NOT equal a locked 4x2. The weight of the engine/trans is carried mainly by the front wheels and is centered unlike the rear with a fuel tank on one side. I have video recorded my Ranger busting snowdrifts in my field for fun, 9 times out of 10 she is spinning all four. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 4:06:36 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My Ranger with no weight in the back, 31" mud tires and a tight limited slip will kick the rear out on demand in 2wd on slick pavement. Not even fun to drive. You touch the throttle and you go sideways. In 4wd it is a tank though despite being light and having mud tires. My dd F-150 is open on both ends, if it is slick and you get overzelous in 2wd you spin a tire. Big whoop, no drama. The only times it has been stuck in snow it hasn't had a tire on the ground anyway. I think most factory setups have a speed limit you can use the lockers up to before they kick out. I have gotten along pretty good with open diffs in my F-150, if I was to ever get a newer one I might look for the locker option. Just because trying to get around in wet grass around it gets annoying to use 4wd and have it buck. For winter... I haven't really missed it especially if I don't go looking for trouble. And that is considering it takes the county two days to plow my gravel road too. And a open 4x4 does NOT equal a locked 4x2. The weight of the engine/trans is carried mainly by the front wheels and is centered unlike the rear with a fuel tank on one side. I have video recorded my Ranger busting snowdrifts in my field for fun, 9 times out of 10 she is spinning all four.  My 1st get exploder with a even if not a slight rear weight bias on 31's and factory LSD was a fucking mountain goat, and may live on as a rallysprint car depending on what the track allows.  That think lives sideways in the winter on purpose though. 
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Posted: 10/17/2016 4:10:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A locker will directly connect the two axles together, so it acts like a spool. They can be automatic (like a detroit locker, or Aussie Locker), or selectable. I really prefer the Auburn Ected type. It's a limited slip diff (where the spider gears have clutch packs and springs to allow slippage, but always have resistance between the axles) when it's unlocked, and well, locked, when it's locked. In my bronco, I have a Detroit Tru-Trac Torsen (TORque SENsing) type posi, where it acts like an open diff (has really good road manners) until there's a difference in rotation between the right and left axles, where it starts to bind up the gears inside and transfer power... that's in the front, and the rear has an Auburn Posi (not an ected) which is a clutch type. If you really want all wheels being driven for getting into (and hopefully out of) bad situations, lockers are the way to go. The transaxle in my SRT-4 has a Quaife Torsen LSD in it from the factory, too. Traction aides in the axles IMHO are more important than lifts, and just behind good tires. This guy here has given an excellent technical answer that no one will bother to read i bet. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 4:12:18 PM EDT
[#14]
I have a 2015 Dodge 1500 Crew 4x4. I bough it used. The VIN look up say it has anti-spin differential rear axle (RAM's version of LSD) but when I put it in 4x4 lock it sure drives like the rear diff is locked. It pulls real well. Getting into our deer hunting property is about 5/8 mile of 4-wheeler trail and has one hill that has ~25% grade on a loose broken rock. I pulled it early this summer in the rain, towing a 14-foot 2000 lbs trailer on the OEM all season radial tires that are on it and hardly spun a wheel.
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Posted: 10/17/2016 4:19:27 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: I'm in the process of truck shopping, and have noticed that at least Ford has their standard 4WD configuration as being with an open differential. I admittedly haven't kept up on truck tech, and most of what I know about 4WD is what I gleaned from my old man, who possessed the best there was of 1960-1990 vehicle tech knowledge, but it's always been my understanding that, in low traction situations, 4WD with an open diff is pretty worthless. Is the idea that the electronic traction control mitigates this, or is it just the cheaper option for the soccer mom/urban cowboy crowd who never uses 4WD? It's a cheap way to give AWD like control using existing technology on the car. It's a reactive system to aide drivers in situations that would otherwise stick a traditional open diff car/ truck. With lockers, lsd, torsen, welded diffs, etc the driver can still use the "when in doubt power out" option more effectively as a preventive measure with the different pro-cons of each type. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 4:25:08 PM EDT
[#16]
^^^^
That. With one wheel spinning, and one not (open diff), you'll still have some traction to keep the ass end from kicking out. You just won't move very well. Just gotta get used to light throttle application since both tires will break loose at approximately the same time. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 4:31:21 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My Ranger with weight in the back and car tires with factory LSD was hard to get to lose traction. My 1st get exploder with a even if not a slight rear weight bias on 31's and factory LSD was a fucking mountain goat, and may live on as a rallysprint car depending on what the track allows. That think lives sideways in the winter on purpose though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My Ranger with no weight in the back, 31" mud tires and a tight limited slip will kick the rear out on demand in 2wd on slick pavement. Not even fun to drive. You touch the throttle and you go sideways. In 4wd it is a tank though despite being light and having mud tires. My dd F-150 is open on both ends, if it is slick and you get overzelous in 2wd you spin a tire. Big whoop, no drama. The only times it has been stuck in snow it hasn't had a tire on the ground anyway. I think most factory setups have a speed limit you can use the lockers up to before they kick out. I have gotten along pretty good with open diffs in my F-150, if I was to ever get a newer one I might look for the locker option. Just because trying to get around in wet grass around it gets annoying to use 4wd and have it buck. For winter... I haven't really missed it especially if I don't go looking for trouble. And that is considering it takes the county two days to plow my gravel road too. And a open 4x4 does NOT equal a locked 4x2. The weight of the engine/trans is carried mainly by the front wheels and is centered unlike the rear with a fuel tank on one side. I have video recorded my Ranger busting snowdrifts in my field for fun, 9 times out of 10 she is spinning all four. My 1st get exploder with a even if not a slight rear weight bias on 31's and factory LSD was a fucking mountain goat, and may live on as a rallysprint car depending on what the track allows. That think lives sideways in the winter on purpose though. I used to drive it all the time in the winter with a open rear and street tires back when it had a V6 with two sandbags. I try to keep it out of the salt now but I have gotten caught twice. The ditches are too deep around me to have kicking out the rear be too much fun when it is slick. I kick the rear out when it is dry because I know when I back off the throttle it will quit... ice and packed snow not so much. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 4:33:36 PM EDT
[#18]
Might be helpful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-rQTHMVAuw |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 4:48:50 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^^^^ That. With one wheel spinning, and one not (open diff), you'll still have some traction to keep the ass end from kicking out. You just won't move very well. Just gotta get used to light throttle application since both tires will break loose at approximately the same time. I would rather have a lsd in snow and ice. Open diffs suck in low traction situations. Throttle control and use of 4wd can abate the tendency of a locked or lsd rear from kicking out. I can't make an open diff gain traction, however. I had a 97 f150 that had a lsd rear. That thing would damn near get out of anything in 2wd. I really used 4wd more as a way to keep the truck straight than I used it for worry about getting stuck. Yes, I could get it to kick the rear out in slick spots, but I can do that with an open diff too. What I can't do with an open diff is deal with low traction situations well, and sometimes those can be just as dangerous to be slow in as worry about the rear kicking out. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 4:49:58 PM EDT
[#20]
Another thing to remember, is everyone has a habit of turning discussions like this into arguments to the extreme. It's not just about driving in rain and hitting a few slick spots and some snow during the winter, it's full on winter blizzard storm of death! and the discussion has to center on that. Or, it's not about towing shit to a camp site and going through some jeep trails that might have some sand, the conversation has to be steered towards uber extreme rock crawling!
In some niche applications 4x4's with open diffs seem to be preferred by some people. In most situations, modern electric traction control probably will be fine. The big thing to not forget though, is whatever you do get good tires appropriate for the situation, and get out and practice sweet skids, getting stuck, doing cool 4x4 stuff, preferably with people that are knowledgeable that can teach you how to get unstuck and what not, before it happens poorly prepared. Stuck is stuck, whether it's grounded out on the frame in a mud pit or sand, or stuck in an inch of snow in a parking lot because black ice formed under the snow and no momentum can be gained after the warm tires melted down into it when you parked. Of course searching for tips and tricks and insight from different sources is important too, check local 4x4 groups on websites and facebook and see what's getting good results. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 4:57:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another thing to remember, is everyone has a habit of turning discussions like this into arguments to the extreme. It's not just about driving in rain and hitting a few slick spots and some snow during the winter, it's full on winter blizzard storm of death! My worst stick was in one of those. On top of a hill, snowing hard with 40mph wind, like 5* with the only tire having any pressure on it being the spare under the bed. I jumped out and got my little folding army shovel out... and my face was numb about that fast. I poked around some and decided I was going to be about as effective as a bucket brigade bailing out the Titanic. Two other trucks couldn't shake me, it spent the night there until I came back with a tractor. But yeah, for normal winter driving things are much different. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 6:02:00 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How is the open differential going to perform better in snow? Isn't one of the disadvantages to open diff that it allows the power to go to the tire with the least resistance? This is correct! the reason people say open diffs are better in snow is the front/rear tire with the traction does not spin keeping the vehicle tracking straight on the road. if all four wheels are locked on snow and you are rough on the throttle all four wheels will spin making the vehicle unstable. if you are you are doing any type of real serious off roading you will want locked or limited slip riffs both front and rear. my.02 |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 6:11:25 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People were saying that in the other thread too... Yet myself and a lot of people I know get by great with LSD's in snow and ice. Sounds more like experience and training leading to personal preference than it does any inherent advantage. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
How is the open differential going to perform better in snow? Isn't one of the disadvantages to open diff that it allows the power to go to the tire with the least resistance? You'll spin one tire instead of both on one end. That's more controllable. Yet myself and a lot of people I know get by great with LSD's in snow and ice. Sounds more like experience and training leading to personal preference than it does any inherent advantage. I'm an experienced driver and get around fine. I still prefer an open diff in the snow. Not enough to order a vehicle without an LSD. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 6:29:26 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
+1. And pretty useless in my experience over many years. One needs to at least add either a locker to the rear or some type of limited slip to the rear and maybe the front. In hard core offroading a locked front differential can be pretty touchy on steering- depending upon environment. My Ram 2500 diesel 4WD has limited slip and differential lock. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A 4WD with open diffs is a 2WD...if it has a locking transfer case. I have a friend who used to have an old Ford with lockers on each end...and that truck would leave the rest of us behind, even in sand. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 6:52:22 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm an experienced driver and get around fine. I still prefer an open diff in the snow. Not enough to order a vehicle without an LSD. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sounds more like experience and training leading to personal preference than it does any inherent advantage. I'm an experienced driver and get around fine. I still prefer an open diff in the snow. Not enough to order a vehicle without an LSD. So the whole "open diffs are good because they don't kick out, they just spin" makes no sense because it's not that big of a deal to me. |
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Posted: 10/17/2016 7:14:00 PM EDT
[#26]
It's a pain when you skid sideways into a curb at Taco Bell and ding your wheel. Ask me how I know lol.
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Posted: 10/17/2016 7:50:08 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a pain when you skid sideways into a curb at Taco Bell and ding your wheel. Ask me how I know lol. Bashing off and over curbs was part of why the exploder got 31.5's while keeping the 15" wheels. Looks goofy, has about 10 lbs of wheel weights per tire, but I can grind them along curbs all day long.  |
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Posted: 10/18/2016 11:15:35 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How is the open differential going to perform better in snow? Isn't one of the disadvantages to open diff that it allows the power to go to the tire with the least resistance? Locked rear will "walk" in snow if the tires don't find traction. Open rear is a lot less prone to doing that. |
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Posted: 10/18/2016 11:01:24 PM EDT
[#29]
Honestly traction control works off road, the key is just keeping it slow and steady. I have had my wifes 2005 Ford Escape on 2 wheels (opposite corners) and it powered out with barely a twitch. Honestly for about 90% of the off highway exploring I do the Escape would do just fine, and be a lot more comfortable than my Toyota Hilux.
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Posted: 10/19/2016 8:10:15 PM EDT
[#30]
I'll chime in, for snow/ice driving, I prefer open/open. When you're moving, that's really all you need. Traction control can trip out on you, so I'd say add the rear e-locker if you can (helps on hill starts and other situations), but you should be set for 99% of on road situations running open/open with traction control and 2-300 pounds of gravel over the rear axle.
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Posted: 10/19/2016 8:22:40 PM EDT
[#31]
A lot of vehicles now use the ABS to simulate a locker or limited slip differential. My Tacoma has that and it seems to work pretty well.
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Posted: 10/19/2016 8:31:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lot of vehicles now use the ABS to simulate a locker or limited slip differential. My Tacoma has that and it seems to work pretty well. It does work pretty well. My truck had that (as well as rear E-Locker), but my DD winter beater ('98 XJ) just has Open/Open and slightly better tires. Zero problems driving either within reasonable distance in any amount of snow. If I had to road trip, I took the truck ('13) over the Cherokee for obvious reasons. |
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Posted: 10/19/2016 10:51:09 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lot of vehicles now use the ABS to simulate a locker or limited slip differential. My Tacoma has that and it seems to work pretty well. Thats what traction control is, the ABS computer uses wheel sensors to detect slip and applies the brake of the slipping wheel. Some systems are also tied into engine and transmission management to further aid by derating the engine and locking transmissions in gear to reduce wheel spin. |
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Posted: 10/19/2016 10:56:16 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thats what traction control is, the ABS computer uses wheel sensors to detect slip and applies the brake of the slipping wheel. Some systems are also tied into engine and transmission management to further aid by derating the engine and locking transmissions in gear to reduce wheel spin. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A lot of vehicles now use the ABS to simulate a locker or limited slip differential. My Tacoma has that and it seems to work pretty well. Thats what traction control is, the ABS computer uses wheel sensors to detect slip and applies the brake of the slipping wheel. Some systems are also tied into engine and transmission management to further aid by derating the engine and locking transmissions in gear to reduce wheel spin. With my truck the TC is on by default. If I press the button it goes into an auto LSD setting and backs traction control down for off road use or in a mud hole. If you hold the button for 5 seconds it turns TC and stability control completely off. I've played with it quite a bit and it works well in 2wd or 4wd. But it doesn't work in 4lo, that turns everything off. If you leave TC on and are stuck the truck won't move because it works too well. |
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Posted: 10/20/2016 7:45:01 AM EDT
[#35]
I had a tacoma with a locker for years. Great truck, and the locker worked great. I live in an area that its not unusual to get close to 200 inches of snow per year. I used the locker a few times off road. I think it would be great to have if you slid off the road (snowy conditions). So if you plan on off roading, the lockers are great, but in normal driving on snow covered roads, I dont think they are necessary.
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Posted: 10/20/2016 10:44:03 PM EDT
[#36]
My trucks were all open open. I think my excursion has limited slip in the rear but if so it's not noticeable.
I never had much of a problem getting around in Alaska winters or normal mud with my trucks. Of course lockers are better for serious off roaring but 99% of what most people do absolutely does require lockers. I swear everyone on here makes it sound like you'll get stuck in your driveway unless your locked at both ends. |
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