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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:06:01 PM EDT
I shot this over a month ago. 100yds sitting at a bench unsupported. 40grain Winchester varmintX. bone stock RRA NM4. I'm happy!  to me 3 rounds can be good if you are honest with yourself. 5 round groups are even better! 10 might be overkill?  |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:08:02 PM EDT
Pretty good.
For the question I think 5 is the minimum for ok telling. 3 isn't much of a group IMO. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:09:07 PM EDT
10.
In Molon we trust. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:09:23 PM EDT
5 for proof, 10 for practice. Aim small, miss small.
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:09:59 PM EDT
10
5 if I'm trying to be conservativecheap with ammo |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:10:46 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
10. In Molon we trust. AYE ETA: Molon (and others) Make a very good case for 10 shot groups. That said, I often shoot 5 shot groups to conserve ammo and give me an idea of how the Rifle and ammo combo is performing. I also have a different standard for different rifles. My Long range AR, I expect repetitive accuracy for extended periods, it's purpose which I hope it is never called for, is to kill a lot of enemy combatants at long range. It has to be on and stay on, hot or cold, 1 round or 100. My Ruger M-77 in 7 mag, on the other hand , with it's long whippy barrel, is meant to make a first round kill on game animals, and if I screw up or something goes sideways, may be called on to make a couple follow up shots. In 40 years of big game hunting, I've yet to encounter an opportunity to get three aimed shots off at a game animal in range and exposed. So if that rifle puts three shots into an inch or so, I'm happy, and not overly concerned if the groups open up when the barrel heats up. So, it's subjective, at least for me, depending on the rifles intended use. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:11:44 PM EDT
3
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:11:55 PM EDT
Very dependent on caliber and firearm.
High speed light barreled guns heat up quick and a 10 shot two minute group isn't going to tell you shit. An ultralight hunting rifle may only be meant to fire 3-5 rounds in a string. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:12:04 PM EDT
I do five shot groups because I am poor. If I were not poor I would do ten shot groups.
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:14:00 PM EDT
3 round groups are for sighting in.
5-10 round groups tell more about accuracy. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:14:34 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
I do five shot groups because I am poor. If I were not poor I would do ten shot groups. But the first shot is thw only one that really matters. 3 shot groups for the win after three youll have more error due to heat and shooter fatigue |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:16:59 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
3 round groups are for sighting in. 5-10 round groups tell more about accuracy. Only if you shoot a whole lot of them. Or just shoot once and call it a 'zero group.' |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:19:33 PM EDT
All 3...as in start at 3 per to get a rough idea of,load, then close in on load with 5 per, and then use 10 per for the final fine tune...
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:23:40 PM EDT
This guy says 10
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:24:51 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted: But the first shot is thw only one that really matters. 3 shot groups for the win after three youll have more error due to heat and shooter fatigue Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I do five shot groups because I am poor. If I were not poor I would do ten shot groups. But the first shot is thw only one that really matters. 3 shot groups for the win after three youll have more error due to heat and shooter fatigue are you serious? you have a tank, did you miss BRM?
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:29:38 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
10. In Molon we trust. This. 10 rounds tell a mich better and more complete story. 3 shots is a joke. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:30:17 PM EDT
5 shot groups for load workups. 10 shot groups for muzzle velocity data and actual estimates of load precision once the load is tuned. Three shot groups once I've got a tuned load and I want to verify zero.
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:32:11 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
Very dependent on caliber and firearm. High speed light barreled guns heat up quick and a 10 shot two minute group isn't going to tell you shit. An ultralight hunting rifle may only be meant to fire 3-5 rounds in a string. Yes, but then let it cool and shoot again. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:37:25 PM EDT
3 round groups are seriously lagging in the polls, so I'll wait until the LaRue owners show up.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:41:02 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
10. In Molon we trust. This, he isn't making money on this... |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:43:51 PM EDT
The topic was discussed long ago:http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/279218_.html.
There's a sizeable number of people who can't shoot consistent groups from a rest, due to flinching or other causes. Sometimes I think I would be pretty safe at 300 yds from the average Arfcommer. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:44:51 PM EDT
I would expect a group to fall in a two dimensional Gaussian distribution, assuming there isn't something causing the shots to string (inconsistent barrel pressure, POI change due to heating, etc).
As such 68% of shots should fall within 1 standard deviation (SD). Which is to say about 7 out of ten shots will fall within 1 SD and the other three won't. If you fire a three shot group there is a good chance you will get a nice tight group that isn't representative. If you fire 10 shots the results should be reasonably representative. The 3 "fliers" are just what you would expect to fall outside of 1 SD. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:46:11 PM EDT
11 shots
Count the closest ten.  |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:57:05 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
I would expect a group to fall in a two dimensional Gaussian distribution, assuming there isn't something causing the shots to string (inconsistent barrel pressure, POI change due to heating, etc). As such 68% of shots should fall within 1 standard deviation (SD). Which is to say about 7 out of ten shots will fall within 1 SD and the other three won't. If you fire a three shot group there is a good chance you will get a nice tight group that isn't representative. If you fire 10 shots the results should be reasonably representative. The 3 "fliers" are just what you would expect to fall outside of 1 SD. This all sounds scientific (and no offense to the poster), but until one has learned how to call their shots, then one is kidding themselves. What is "calling shots"? It means being able to say where a particular bullet landed on the target. Folks accomplished at doing so can call their shots such as "left, high, 8-ring", or "low, right 7-ring". Trained people can do this, and it's not hard. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 7:58:02 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
10. In Molon we trust. This |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:04:24 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted: 3 round groups are seriously lagging in the polls, so I'll wait until the LaRue owners show up. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile  whenever a thread doesn't go the way some people want it to they start bickering to get the thread locked. lets not have any of that in this thread please. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:08:42 PM EDT
The more the better.
But eventually there will be no paper left.
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:20:00 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted: This, he isn't making money on this... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 10. In Molon we trust. This, he isn't making money on this... |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:23:44 PM EDT
If you can't tell in three shots, you suck.
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:25:20 PM EDT
I do all my load work up with 5 rounds. I don't enjoy shooting groups, but I've done some over 10 just to see.
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:27:52 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
If you can't tell in three shots, you suck. Most people do suck at shooting. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:28:21 PM EDT
5x5....... if u want a statistical average.... anything less is just sighting the gun in...
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:30:46 PM EDT
I can shoot a lot of good three round groups, I can't shoot a lot of good five round groups.
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:31:49 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted: If you can't tell in three shots, you suck. educate yourself!  |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:32:29 PM EDT
5 rounds is my number. 10 is better but overkill imho.
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:36:37 PM EDT
3 to brag
5 to confirm zero 10 to prove accuracy of weapon and shooter. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:40:49 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
whenever a thread doesn't go the way some people want it to they start bickering to get the thread locked. lets not have any of that in this thread please.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
3 round groups are seriously lagging in the polls, so I'll wait until the LaRue owners show up. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile whenever a thread doesn't go the way some people want it to they start bickering to get the thread locked. lets not have any of that in this thread please.
Damnit, there you are, instigating, AGAIN. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:40:59 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted: This all sounds scientific (and no offense to the poster), but until one has learned how to call their shots, then one is kidding themselves. What is "calling shots"? It means being able to say where a particular bullet landed on the target. Folks accomplished at doing so can call their shots such as "left, high, 8-ring", or "low, right 7-ring". Trained people can do this, and it's not hard. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I would expect a group to fall in a two dimensional Gaussian distribution, assuming there isn't something causing the shots to string (inconsistent barrel pressure, POI change due to heating, etc). As such 68% of shots should fall within 1 standard deviation (SD). Which is to say about 7 out of ten shots will fall within 1 SD and the other three won't. If you fire a three shot group there is a good chance you will get a nice tight group that isn't representative. If you fire 10 shots the results should be reasonably representative. The 3 "fliers" are just what you would expect to fall outside of 1 SD. This all sounds scientific (and no offense to the poster), but until one has learned how to call their shots, then one is kidding themselves. What is "calling shots"? It means being able to say where a particular bullet landed on the target. Folks accomplished at doing so can call their shots such as "left, high, 8-ring", or "low, right 7-ring". Trained people can do this, and it's not hard. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:42:31 PM EDT
3-rounds lies to you more often than it tells you the truth. (43-57)
5-rounds tells you the truth more often than it lies. (61-39) 10-rounds gets you to the 85% confidence level 100 rounds gets you to the 95% confidence level. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:45:58 PM EDT
Statistics. What is statistics?
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:48:35 PM EDT
Well, if you have an accurate rifle, and good, uniform ammo then things are simplified.
For example, it should be possible for a good shot to sight-in an M1 Garand or M1A in one shot. Confirm with second shot. Most rifles don't have iron sights that will allow this, although anyone using optics should be able to do the same. It comes down to knowing how to adjust one's particular sights/optic. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:51:07 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
you cant 'call shots' on inaccurate or inconsistent rifles or loads. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would expect a group to fall in a two dimensional Gaussian distribution, assuming there isn't something causing the shots to string (inconsistent barrel pressure, POI change due to heating, etc). As such 68% of shots should fall within 1 standard deviation (SD). Which is to say about 7 out of ten shots will fall within 1 SD and the other three won't. If you fire a three shot group there is a good chance you will get a nice tight group that isn't representative. If you fire 10 shots the results should be reasonably representative. The 3 "fliers" are just what you would expect to fall outside of 1 SD. This all sounds scientific (and no offense to the poster), but until one has learned how to call their shots, then one is kidding themselves. What is "calling shots"? It means being able to say where a particular bullet landed on the target. Folks accomplished at doing so can call their shots such as "left, high, 8-ring", or "low, right 7-ring". Trained people can do this, and it's not hard. That's true. Question is, why would one be wasting their time in shooting either? |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:52:46 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
3 to brag 5 to confirm zero 10 to prove accuracy of weapon and shooter. Couldn't have said it better. In before Molon's .4 MOA three-shot Wolf group. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:54:26 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted:
10. In Molon we trust. Remember his threads! Awesomeness. He influenced several of my purchases. 10 requires patience, but anything over 5 will get you some info. 3 is worthless, except for bragging rights. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:56:16 PM EDT
Quote History Quoted: Remember his threads! Awesomeness. He influenced several of my purchases. 10 requires patience, but anything over 5 will get you some info. 3 is worthless, except for bragging rights. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 10. In Molon we trust. Remember his threads! Awesomeness. He influenced several of my purchases. 10 requires patience, but anything over 5 will get you some info. 3 is worthless, except for bragging rights. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:58:02 PM EDT
I shoot 5 round groups, I feel it's a good representative of the load, rifle, and shooter.
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:58:25 PM EDT
Depends, using a sled where almost all human error is removed then 5-10 is proof testing of the rifle/machine.
When using bags, and no machine rests, 3 shots is what is needed. Multiple groups of 3 shots each. This helps remove the ends of the bell curve to clean up the human error. I don't have a sled, I use multiple 3 shot groups, 3X3 most of the time. |
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Posted: 9/2/2016 8:59:49 PM EDT
The answer to the question is "Yes".
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Posted: 9/2/2016 9:01:07 PM EDT
5 round groups
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Posted: 9/2/2016 9:01:41 PM EDT
I shoot 5 to get an idea of how a rifle is shooting when I am zeroing it, a true performance of my shooting would be 10 shots.
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Posted: 9/2/2016 9:05:33 PM EDT
6, toss 1.
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