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Posted: 10/16/2004 2:10:12 PM EST
Update on these guys. I held my opinion before, but after hearing one soldiers phone message to mommy and the report that "other" soldiers completed the mission, screw 'em.
Soldiers could've died due to there lack of action.

Link Posted: 10/16/2004 2:27:35 PM EST
links?

Link Posted: 10/16/2004 2:28:52 PM EST
One part that I thought was funny was that they had no "security guarding them" wait aren't you a soldier?? cant you take care of yourself?

ever one hates grunts til rag heads start shooting at them...
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 2:33:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By Triumph955i:
links?




+1
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 2:33:59 PM EST
I was watching Fox. DRudge Report . How do I post a link? I'm new....
They're investigating a break down in command, I figured as much. I noticed on the TV their mascot is a pussy, er sorry, a black cat.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 2:47:36 PM EST
I saw that the Commanding General has stood down the unit till every piece of equipment is checked over for for safety and operational readiness. These vehicles better be ALL FUCKED UP or there will be little sympathy for this Platoon. If the vehicles are all fucked up and the Commander reported up the chain that all these vehicles were hunky dory, he will be toast.

I guess in a few days we will get a better picture of what the causes of this FUBAR were.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 2:50:41 PM EST
Even if the vehicles had some problems, they are soldiers and soldiers are asked to do the next to impossible with very little many times (ie Battle of the Bulge). The vehicles would have to so ate up its not even a joke for their reasons to be worth merit.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 2:52:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 2:56:01 PM EST by warlord]
navytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-453911.php

October 15, 2004

Platoon defies orders in Iraq
Miss. soldier calls home, cites safety concerns

By Jeremy Hudson
The (Jackson, Miss.) Clarion-Ledger

A 17-member Army Reserve platoon with troops from Jackson, Miss., and around the Southeast deployed to Iraq is under arrest for refusing a "suicide mission" to deliver fuel, the troops" relatives said Thursday.

The soldiers refused an order on Wednesday to go to Taji, Iraq " north of Baghdad " because their vehicles were considered "deadlined" or extremely unsafe, said Patricia McCook of Jackson, wife of Sgt. Larry O. McCook.

Sgt. McCook, a deputy at the Hinds County, Miss., Detention Center, and the 16 other members of the 343rd Quartermaster Company from Rock Hill, S.C., were read their rights and moved from the military barracks into tents, Patricia McCook said her husband told her during a panicked phone call about 5 a.m. Thursday.

The platoon could be charged with the willful disobeying of orders, punishable by dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of pay and up to five years confinement, said military law expert Mark Stevens, an associate professor of justice studies at Wesleyan College in Rocky Mount, N.C.

On Friday, the Army confirmed that the unit"s actions were under scrutiny.

"The commanding general of the 13th Corps Support Command has appointed the Deputy Commander to lead an investigation into allegations that members of the 343rd Quartermaster Company refused to participate in their assigned convoy mission October 13," said Lt. Col Steven A. Boylan, a spokesman for U.S. Army and multinational forces in Iraq.

"The investigating team is currently in Tallil taking statements and interviewing those involved. This is an isolated incident and it is far too early in the investigation to speculate as to what happened, why it happened or any action that might be taken," Boylan said.

"It is important to note that the mission in question was carried out using other soldiers from the unit," Boylan said.

Boylan also confirmed that the unit is stationed in Tallil, a logistical support air base south of Nasiriyah.

Rep. Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., said he plans to submit a congressional inquiry today on behalf of the Mississippi soldiers to launch an investigation into whether they are being treated improperly.

"I would not want any member of the military to be put in a dangerous situation ill-equipped," said Thompson, who was contacted by families. "I have had similar complaints from military families about vehicles that weren"t armor-plated, or bullet-proof vests that are outdated. It concerns me because we made over $150 billion in funds available to equip our forces in Iraq.

"President Bush takes the position that the troops are well-armed, but if this situation is true, it calls into question how honest he has been with the country," Thompson said.

The 343rd is a supply unit whose general mission is to deliver fuel and water. The unit includes three women and 14 men and those with ranking up to sergeant first class.

"I got a call from an officer in another unit early (Thursday) morning who told me that my husband and his platoon had been arrested on a bogus charge because they refused to go on a suicide mission," said Jackie Butler of Jackson, wife of Sgt. Michael Butler, a 24-year reservist. "When my husband refuses to follow an order, it has to be something major."

The platoon being held has troops from Alabama, Kentucky, North Carolina, Mississippi and South Carolina, said Teresa Hill of Dothan, Ala., whose daughter Amber McClenny is among those being detained.

McClenny, 21, pleaded for help in a message left on her mother"s answering machine early Thursday morning.

"They are holding us against our will," McClenny said. "We are now prisoners."

McClenny told her mother her unit tried to deliver fuel to another base in Iraq Wednesday, but was sent back because the fuel had been contaminated with water. The platoon returned to its base, where it was told to take the fuel to another base, McClenny told her mother.

The platoon is normally escorted by armed Humvees and helicopters, but did not have that support Wednesday, McClenny told her mother.

The convoy trucks the platoon was driving had experienced problems in the past and were not being properly maintained, Hill said her daughter told her.

The situation mirrors other tales of troops being sent on missions without proper equipment.

Aviation regiments have complained of being forced to fly dangerous missions over Iraq with outdated night-vision goggles and old missile-avoidance systems. Stories of troops" families purchasing body armor because the military didn"t provide them with adequate equipment have been included in recent presidential debates.

Patricia McCook said her husband, a staff sergeant, understands well the severity of disobeying orders. But he did not feel comfortable taking his soldiers on another trip.

"He told me that three of the vehicles they were to use were deadlines ... not safe to go in a hotbed like that," Patricia McCook said.

Hill said the trucks her daughter"s unit was driving could not top 40 mph.

"They knew there was a 99 percent chance they were going to get ambushed or fired at," Hill said her daughter told her. "They would have had no way to fight back."

Kathy Harris of Vicksburg, Miss., is the mother of Aaron Gordon, 20, who is among those being detained. Her primary concern is that she has been told the soldiers have not been provided access to a judge advocate general.

Stevens said if the soldiers are being confined, law requires them to have a hearing before a magistrate within seven days.

Harris said conditions for the platoon have been difficult of late. Her son e-mailed her earlier this week to ask what the penalty would be if he became physical with a commanding officer, she said.

But Nadine Stratford of Rock Hill, S.C., said her godson Colin Durham, 20, has been happy with his time in Iraq. She has not heard from him since the platoon was detained.

"When I talked to him about a month ago, he was fine," Stratford said. "He said it was like being at home."

Army Times staff writer Gina Cavallaro contributed to this report.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:11:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:
I was watching Fox. DRudge Report . How do I post a link? I'm new....
They're investigating a break down in command, I figured as much. I noticed on the TV their mascot is a pussy, er sorry, a black cat.



Its not a mascot, its the patch of the 81st Division, now 81st RRC, a wildcat.

It is, in fact, the oldest patch in the Army.

Don't judge all of us who wear it proudly by a handfull of idiots.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:23:40 PM EST
If the fuel was contaminated and had already been turned done once(Dallas Morning News) it was pointless to try to take it anywhere.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:27:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 3:28:05 PM EST by eodtech2000]

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:
I was watching Fox. DRudge Report . How do I post a link? I'm new....
They're investigating a break down in command, I figured as much. I noticed on the TV their mascot is a pussy, er sorry, a black cat.



Its not a mascot, its the patch of the 81st Division, now 81st RRC, a wildcat.

It is, in fact, the oldest patch in the Army.

Don't judge all of us who wear it proudly by a handfull of idiots.



I sure won't. I was in the Guard before I went Active Duty, the 133rd Eng out of Maine - They are in Mosul right now and my Step Brother is over there with them.

I was BTW at the accepting of the Colors of the 20th Maine (Gen Joshua Chamberlain's unit - Gettysburg by the 133rd in the freezing rain in Oct 90. There is blood stains and bullet holes in them too, the bayonet charge at Little Round top was a suicide mission but those men followed their orders and changed the entire course of a battle.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:34:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By zoom2000:
If the fuel was contaminated and had already been turned done once(Dallas Morning News) it was pointless to try to take it anywhere.



Water can easily be removed in the field.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:35:08 PM EST
If they didn't go gecause they didn't have an armed escort I could understand, would be a waste of life and money to haul a load of fuel with out proper protection.

If they didn't go because they were simply scared shitless then yeah they are going to jail,


Also I have heard they have been released. So maybe they were right.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:36:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By olyarms:
If they didn't go gecause they didn't have an armed escort I could understand, would be a waste of life and money to haul a load of fuel with out proper protection.

If they didn't go because they were simply scared shitless then yeah they are going to jail,


Also I have heard they have been released. So maybe they were right.



THey are soldiers they are supposed to be able to take care of themselves. if the SOP is armed escorts needed then maybe they have a leg to stand on
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:40:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By olyarms:
If they didn't go gecause they didn't have an armed escort I could understand, would be a waste of life and money to haul a load of fuel with out proper protection.

If they didn't go because they were simply scared shitless then yeah they are going to jail,


Also I have heard they have been released. So maybe they were right.



They're soldiers. I mean, they're in the Army, and they've got rifles and MGs and stuff that is intended to be used to shoot or blow up people who are trying to do them harm. They can provide their own goddamned security.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 3:45:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By METT-T:

Originally Posted By olyarms:
If they didn't go gecause they didn't have an armed escort I could understand, would be a waste of life and money to haul a load of fuel with out proper protection.

If they didn't go because they were simply scared shitless then yeah they are going to jail,


Also I have heard they have been released. So maybe they were right.



They're soldiers. I mean, they're in the Army, and they've got rifles and MGs and stuff that is intended to be used to shoot or blow up people who are trying to do them harm. They can provide their own goddamned security.



A tanker truck is a less than ideal platform to defend from. It is big and nice RPG magnet. You need Humvees and gun trucks that are fast and much more manuvearble than a big rig. This unit may not have been ideally set up to provide good security and I have no idea what a Quartermaster unit has for vehicles these days neither.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 4:21:53 PM EST
I wouldn't give a shit about what they say i have had to take vehicles that were shot the fuck up and barley running to accomplish a mission. I think it was just a bunch of sorry ass soldiers that didn't feel like doing there job and so they started this bullshit about there equipment. I guess they never heard of doing PMCS- Preventaive Maintance Checks and Services to there stuff , if it's any ones fault for the stuff being broke than it's theres for not doing the PMCS and getting there shit fixed.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 4:25:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 4:27:51 PM EST by llanero]
What the heck was the PL doing when all this was going on? What was his PSGT doing? Squad leaders? How the Hell did this happen?
Being relatively new to the Army (I've been doing nothing but training since January and have a heckuva lot more ahead of me), I'm finding it difficult to imagine a set of circumstances that would lead to this. How could that platoon's leadership allow discipline/morale get so low?
I'd bet the farm that we're going to discuss this ad nauseam at OCS next month.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 4:34:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 4:35:18 PM EST by Garand_Shooter]

Originally Posted By llanero:
What the heck was the PL doing when all this was going on? What was his PSGT doing? Squad leaders? How the Hell did this happen?
Being relatively new to the Army (I've been doing nothing but training since January and have a heckuva lot more ahead of me), I'm finding it difficult to imagine a set of circumstances that would lead to this. How could that platoon's leadership allow discipline/morale get so low?
I'd bet the farm that we're going to discuss this ad nauseam at OCS next month.



I said in the post that got locked:

It looks like this platoon was made up in large part by soldiers called up from the IRR and/or cross leveled.

I am willing to bet all or some of the following happened:

The company did not fully integrate the new soldiers, but stuck them all in one platoon, therby making them feel like outsiders and feeling shit on anyway.
They did not have a Platoon Leader or had a very very weak one.
The Platton Sergeant, if they had one and not an acting E-6, had a piss poor attitude, and this poisoned the whole platoon when left unchecked.
The command failed by not seeeing this brewing and stepping in.

Where are you at in MO? I am at FLW till Dec....
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 4:38:21 PM EST
Dishonorable discharges for dishonorable people. How about that! Let do the old court martial as well.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 4:38:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 6:43:59 PM EST
The press coverage has been pretty lousy. Calling it a "suicde mission" when the other unit completed the task with no casualties, etc.

I need to ask my uncle about this at Christmas, he was in a fuel delivery company in Vietnam.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 6:56:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:
I was watching Fox. DRudge Report . How do I post a link? I'm new....
They're investigating a break down in command, I figured as much. I noticed on the TV their mascot is a pussy, er sorry, a black cat.



Its not a mascot, its the patch of the 81st Division, now 81st RRC, a wildcat.

It is, in fact, the oldest patch in the Army.

Don't judge all of us who wear it proudly by a handfull of idiots.




+1


Painting with a broad brush is needless and unfair.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:42:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ghost-1:
I guess they never heard of doing PMCS- Preventaive Maintance Checks and Services to there stuff , if it's any ones fault for the stuff being broke than it's theres for not doing the PMCS and getting there shit fixed.



As a general comment about PMCS getting done, the guys in my unit write the same stuff up over and over again, with little of it getting repaired in a timely fashion. Even when stuff goes up for repairs, it often comes back with the same old problems unfixed. The guys get tired of writing it up over and over again. A few months ago our unit did a major inspection and they had the guys do EVERYTHING by the book ( they normally do anyway, but there was a special emphasis this time). Well, all but about two of the vehicles and every TOW system but one or two in the company was deadlined after the fine tooth comb PMCS . So what did happened? The higher ups had a cow and buried the PMCS reports because they felt that heads would roll at some level to have that much gear get reported as deadlined all at once. I am sure they'll try to get as much of the stuff moved off the property books in December when our MOS changes without geting it repaired.

Past experience has been that when we get activated for major disasters and such the purse strings get loosened and all of a sudden all sorts of broken stuff gets fixed, so I suspect that it all boils down to money. Perhaps this unit has had stuff broke down all along and was expecting that when they were activated on Title 10, the money would be found to fix the stuff that needed fixing.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:46:49 PM EST
"But, but...I only signed up for the college $$$..."

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE COMBAT, DON'T FUCKING ENLIST!!! IT'S THAT SIMPLE!!!
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:49:31 PM EST
Or how about being held under armed guard. Isn't everybody armed in Iraq.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:52:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 8:56:10 PM EST by Garand_Shooter]

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By Ghost-1:
I guess they never heard of doing PMCS- Preventaive Maintance Checks and Services to there stuff , if it's any ones fault for the stuff being broke than it's theres for not doing the PMCS and getting there shit fixed.



As a general comment about PMCS getting done, the guys in my unit write the same stuff up over and over again, with little of it getting repaired in a timely fashion. Even when stuff goes up for repairs, it often comes back with the same old problems unfixed. The guys get tired of writing it up over and over again. A few months ago our unit did a major inspection and they had the guys do EVERYTHING by the book ( they normally do anyway, but there was a special emphasis this time). Well, all but about two of the vehicles and every TOW system but one or two in the company was deadlined after the fine tooth comb PMCS . So what did happened? The higher ups had a cow and buried the PMCS reports because they felt that heads would roll at some level to have that much gear get reported as deadlined all at once. I am sure they'll try to get as much of the stuff moved off the property books in December when our MOS changes without geting it repaired.

Past experience has been that when we get activated for major disasters and such the purse strings get loosened and all of a sudden all sorts of broken stuff gets fixed, so I suspect that it all boils down to money. Perhaps this unit has had stuff broke down all along and was expecting that when they were activated on Title 10, the money would be found to fix the stuff that needed fixing.



A non-responsive maintenance system is on of my pet peeves for sure. When private Snuffy writes up a deficency, it should either be corrected, defeered but recorded on the 5988E so he knows it is known, or if it is really not a problem someone should explain to him why, not just ignore him.

I have sent up a few really, really bad looking (but accurate) AMSS reports, and people got mad... but I got my damm class IX money.

I posted in the earlier thread that this unit uses the Charlotte, NC AMSA shop, and it is one of, if not the, finest shop in the USAR system. I can assure you ffrom my dealings with that shop that thier equipment was in good shape when they deployed with it.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 9:12:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By ajm1911:
Even if the vehicles had some problems, they are soldiers and soldiers are asked to do the next to impossible with very little many times (ie Battle of the Bulge). The vehicles would have to so ate up its not even a joke for their reasons to be worth merit.

agreed, i am trying to hold judgement though........
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 9:57:24 PM EST
The fact that other soldiers completed the mission, likely in the SAME trucks, without armor/air riding shotgun, would suggest that these guys just didn't want to do their job...
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 9:53:38 AM EST
i WAS MAKING A JOKE, IM HOPE YOU REALIZE THAT. ...
NOW DAYS AFTER THE FACT THE COMMANDER WAS TOLD TO STEP DOWN....SHE DID (GO FIGURE). MY THEORY IS THAT SHE WAS THEIR BUDDY ON THE WEEKENDS AND COULDN'T MAINTAIN CONTROL WHEN IT COUNTED....
I STILL SAY AN ORDER IS AN ORDER. COURTMARTIAL.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 10:02:38 AM EST
mixed gender unit is all you need to know.
The 507th, etc. I am seeing a common thread.
BTW, my BMT when I was a BMO in hawaii was KIA in the 507th; CW2 Johny Mata.

Good maintenance is a commanders responsibility. I made damn sure no operator wrote up the same deficiency more than twice. It was my 92As ass if they did. Maintenance is very easy if the mechanics and the operators trust each other. And when an operator fucked up and broke something through negligance, they paid a statement of charges for the parts and then helped the mechanics fix it. Mechanics loved it and soldiers got to be very careful. And if parts were on hand, they were installed within the week. Hard work, but my ancient shit had an OR rate over 92% after three months in command. And that was with monthly 100% roll out verifications.
There are enough 978s in country that getting repair parts couldn't have been too tough.
And if the fuel was contaiminated, then they could have just recycled the fuel through the internal filtration systems. yeah, you got to change the filters, but your fuel is good to go.
But, considering the leadership, they probably didn't want to swap filters. It takes time and you can't fuck all the chicks in your unit if you are out changing filters and doing convoys and stuff.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 10:17:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
mixed gender unit is all you need to know.
<SNIP>
But, considering the leadership, they probably didn't want to swap filters. It takes time and you can't fuck all the chicks in your unit if you are out changing filters and doing convoys and stuff.



This would be funny as shit if it weren't true.
Poor leadership+mixed troops= trouble.
Good leadership+mixed troops= leadership challenge, at the least.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 10:35:58 AM EST
These guys got the job done that the SC unit refused to do:

www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-213101-464341.php






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