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Posted: 7/20/2008 6:39:12 AM EST
Why on Earth are so many Americans in jail? I remember just a few years ago the big number was 1 million Americans imprisoned....why the heck has it shot up so high and where did all the prisons pop up to hold them?

It's just a crazy number. 2.3 Million. We spend more money imprisoning American's every year than these Agencies annual Budgets:

Department of Agriculture
Department of Veterans Affairs
Department of Labor
Department of Transportation
Department of Education
Department of Justice & the entire Judicial Branch of our Govt
Department of HomeLand InSecurity
Department of Energy
NASA


WE Spend more money on imprisoning Americans than the entire budget of the Judicial Branch of our Govt, the Executive Branch(minus DOD), and Congress's budget....COMBINED.

Damn. That just don't seem right....some would say....Police State?

Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:42:20 AM EST
there should be more in jail, a lot more
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:45:08 AM EST
I think it's the so-called "war on drugs".
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:47:15 AM EST
Who's in jail? I remember reading a breakdown of who was in jail and who wasn't. Let's see, how did that work again.

It's slipping my mind.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:48:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dawgsquat:
I think it's the so-called "war on drugs".
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:48:30 AM EST
In other words, about seven tenths of one percent of the American population is imprisoned. The last time that number was around one million was circa 1990. That is nearly 2 decades ago. Then, there was a little over 50 million less people. That means, that the increase in US Prison population really equates to an addes 3 tenths of one percent of the US population being locked up. Not a very big jump if you look at the numbers, is it.


Damn. That just don't seem right....some would say....Police State?

Then what do you say we should do with criminals ?Are you willing to house them for free at your place?
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:48:48 AM EST
Unfortunately, its no longer the deterrent that it used to be.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:49:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 6:50:00 AM EST by JAD]

Originally Posted By Night_Goat:
Who's in jail? I remember reading a breakdown of who was in jail and who wasn't. Let's see, how did that work again.

It's slipping my mind.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/us/27census.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:56:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dawgsquat:
I think it's the so-called "war on drugs".


Yeah, most of it is this stupid war on drugs bullshit, i can understand imprisoning people for many things, but not this.
Don't get me wrong, if you commit murder, assault, etc. etc. because of drugs then you should rot, but simply posessing, selling, or growing some type of illegal substance and spending possible life in prison is complete bullshit!
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:58:53 AM EST
WE Spend more money on imprisoning Americans than the entire budget of the Judicial Branch of our Govt, the Executive Branch(minus DOD), and Congress's budget....COMBINED

If we could just jail a majority of members from these 3 branches we would really be set !

Total crime has been steadily declining nationally for the last 15 years. -Might have something to do with the increased population being incarcerated.

My only suggestion to further improve the system would be to release all non-violent drug offenders and replace the jail space with repeat, violent offenders. Stop plea-bargaining down violent offenders. I'll happily contribute my tax dollars to build more prisons to accommodate them longer. Take all weightlifting equipment out of the prisons as well.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:03:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 7:07:38 AM EST by -Duke-Nukem-]
I assure you that the number of people actively in jail at any one time is absolutely dwarfed by the number that SHOULD be in jail and are instead on probation. If you are in jail for drugs its likely not your first offense, or your second. Or else you screwed up and got your probation revoked for being unable to follow basic directions. Or else you were unfortunate enough to not have any money, in which case you are screwed.

I make a living doing this (among other things).

The other day I was in circuit court and saw a guy who works for the IRS get a suspended imposition of sentence. His attorney made the argument that if he got a felony conviction he would get fired and lose his retirement package, and that would be manifestly unfair after his years of service to the IRS. See, if you're an unemployed street urchin it doesn't punish you as much to put you in jail because you simply don't have that much to lose, and likely the government is already supplying your basic needs though welfare programs anyway, so the net effect is small on both ends (that's not sarcasm btw).

The guy had multiple counts of cocaine possession, possession with intent to distribute, and oh yeah, an NFA violation for a sawn-off shotgun that was found along with them.

Probation. So this is the guy who could be auditing my taxes next year. I thought to myself, "now THAT'S a good attorney he has right there..."
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:06:10 AM EST
War on Drugs.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:11:26 AM EST
Prison and jail are the USA's growth industries, seriously. As for Calif, our prisons/jails are at something like 2-3X(?-double check these numbers) over designed capacity. And the budget for prison guards, it is massive.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:13:38 AM EST
As the ancient Chinese philosopher Lao-Tse said, "The more laws that are written, the more criminals are produced".
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:19:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By JAD:

Originally Posted By Night_Goat:
Who's in jail? I remember reading a breakdown of who was in jail and who wasn't. Let's see, how did that work again.

It's slipping my mind.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/us/27census.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/09/27/us/0927-nat-webCENSUS.gif



Now when you do the numbers on race on a per captia bases you get the real numbers as to what the real problem is. TT
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:29:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 7:30:36 AM EST by -Duke-Nukem-]

Originally Posted By warlord:
Prison and jail are the USA's growth industries, seriously.


Yup, one of the reasons I went into law is because attorneys are pretty economic-downturn proof. I'm a prosecutor/crim defense attorney who also does traffic and a few other things. None of my clients spend discretionary income on me, none of them WANT to spend the money. You are compelled, either you spend this now or your life is ruined.

I might as well add that I never realized how much damage alcohol consumption does to our country before I started praticing law, and how much the attorneys benefit from it. I've made thousands of dollars just this year on people who aren't very smart to begin with and then added a huge dose of beer to their stupidity. One of my clients recently told me, in a remorseful moment of clarity, that he estimates he's spent around $30k over the years to stay out of jail for stuff he did while he was drunk. It still won't change his behavior, I guarantee next Friday night he'll be plastered yet again. If we could legalize drugs I'm sure convictions for stupid crimes people commit while high would skyrocket, even as convictions for possession of the drugs themselves disappeared. So, we make money regardless.

As another member posted a few days ago in another thread, "when times are good people drink, when times are bad people drink more", so this bad economy might be really good for Duke if his saying is true.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:31:45 AM EST
Should be over 3 million.

2.3 million is not even 1% of the population.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:32:45 AM EST
We should execute everyone in jail and use the money saved on the National Science Foundation and NASA.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:35:20 AM EST
As long as they're imprisoning the right people, I'm okay with it.

It's imprisoning people for bullshit that makes me mad.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:35:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 7:36:15 AM EST by Johnny_Reno]

I don't like the amount of money that we are spending on prisons either.

That doesn't mean that I want the prisoner released.

I'd just rather see them spend their own time growing their own food instead of lifting weights and getting huge for their inevitable release date.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:39:00 AM EST
a lot of em need vocational training worse than jail, hell theres a lot that if they had a shot at something even a couple dollars better than minimum wage they probably wouldnt be in jail to begin with
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:40:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By 2fewtoys:
Why on Earth are so many Americans in jail? I remember just a few years ago the big number was 1 million Americans imprisoned....why the heck has it shot up so high and where did all the prisons pop up to hold them?

It's just a crazy number. 2.3 Million. We spend more money imprisoning American's every year than these Agencies annual Budgets:

Department of Agriculture
Department of Veterans Affairs
Department of Labor
Department of Transportation
Department of Education
Department of Justice & the entire Judicial Branch of our Govt
Department of HomeLand InSecurity
Department of Energy
NASA


WE Spend more money on imprisoning Americans than the entire budget of the Judicial Branch of our Govt, the Executive Branch(minus DOD), and Congress's budget....COMBINED.

Damn. That just don't seem right....some would say....Police State?





So what do you suggest??? I know you think we should just let them go with a warning right? No wonder our country is going downhill.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:42:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dawgsquat:
I think it's the so-called "war on drugs".



+1

Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:44:37 AM EST
Start bt taking all the assholes with the death penalty and carry it out ...post haste!!!!


Then take 3/4 of the lifers and give them a ride on the lightning too!!..That'll cut it down some!!!
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:45:55 AM EST
We need to convert Guam into a penal colony.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:46:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:47:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dawgsquat:
I think it's the so-called "war on drugs".
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:48:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Armed_Scientist:
We should execute everyone in jail and use the money saved on the National Science Foundation and NASA.


Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:48:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 7:50:01 AM EST by fatboy79]

Originally Posted By SlipShot762:
a lot of em need vocational training worse than jail, hell theres a lot that if they had a shot at something even a couple dollars better than minimum wage they probably wouldnt be in jail to begin with


Wrong, most of them have no desire to work or be responsible. Why go to work everyday when you have welfare. Jail for a lot of people is better than home and a way of life. If you took away all the pleasant things in jail..t.v. ,weights, visits and made it hell some might think again.
All the programs look good to politicians and on paper but in reality all prisons and jails are warehouses were criminals feed off each other, make more connections, learn how to work the system and to be better criminals.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 8:11:44 AM EST

No offense, SlipShot, but that statement demonstrates that you don't have much experience dealing with criminals.

They are not there because they "didn't have a shot" at a good life.

They are not there because they needed to "make a couple of more dollars".

They are there because of decisions that they made. Bad decisions that they knew were wrong when they made them.

And, if they were not caught and put in jail, they would go right on making the same stupid decisions.

It is all about personal responsibility.


well actually i do know a few. My own dad has an eigth grade education, can barely write his own name, and was a coal miner by trade. After they shut his mines down he became a bootlegger. He really didnt have any other options, maybe bank robbery but lesser evil n all.

I had an uncle who after discharge from the army did logging until that went under, then he went to prison for growing pot. Other than basic infantry skills, its all he was qualified to do, and he had 4 kids and a wife to feed.

For most those that come to mind when discussing this yah we envision the lowlife scum type who only want to steal and dont want to work, but there are a great many in rural appalachia who simply got no skills and so are reduced to doing what they can to get by.

If you can barely read you cant even fill out an application to work the wendys drive thru.

Hell i know one ole boy right now who used to sell his pain meds he got from the va to get by, but the cop who caught him doing it hooked him up with a welding apprenticship instead of charging him and now he's doing pretty good.

there are many who simply need a skill. there are, as you say, just as many who a skill is wasted on.

Link Posted: 7/20/2008 8:19:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By fatboy79:

Originally Posted By SlipShot762:
a lot of em need vocational training worse than jail, hell theres a lot that if they had a shot at something even a couple dollars better than minimum wage they probably wouldnt be in jail to begin with


Wrong, most of them have no desire to work or be responsible. Why go to work everyday when you have welfare. Jail for a lot of people is better than home and a way of life. If you took away all the pleasant things in jail..t.v. ,weights, visits and made it hell some might think again.
All the programs look good to politicians and on paper but in reality all prisons and jails are warehouses were criminals feed off each other, make more connections, learn how to work the system and to be better criminals.


while i have zero empathy for career criminals your statement is 100% MSM bullshit, not all people in prison should be in prison, nor do they choose to stay there because it's a free ride. Prisons have become a honey pot for corporate profit, it's hard to pay low wages if they don't have prisoners. Sure, there are a lot of prisoners that rescind but the privately owned prisons have an agenda and without prisoners their goal cannot be reached. The war on drugs and the outright criminalization of personal freedom is all about profit for the system
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 8:28:25 AM EST
bump to add; my dad went from a black faced dirt eating down in the hole miner to a guy who ran his own mining operation, was worth almost 2 mil.

he did it by book as best he figured, and paid his taxes. The irs sent him to prison for not withholding from his employees. In fact he paid his taxes and informed the irs that he didnt withhold as he figured the workers could pay their own taxes the same as he did. He simply didnt understand the tax code or how to withhold or what the big deal was so long as he paid his taxes and gave the irs the info on how much his workers made.

He asked them to come in and assist him with compliance, to make sure all his were paid and to arrange for his workers to pay theirs. The IRS didnt much give a shit.

Basically a lack of education and understanding toppled his operation. After that he was a bootlegger until he got his social security check. Now he says he'll never work again, if he needs money he cant borrow he'll sell beer/pot/pills or steal it he says, since they put him in jail for honest work whats the difference he says.

He's hardly the type who shuns personal responsibility or who would rather not work. Maybe rural appalachia is an exception. I'll tell you this, when people around here learned how much we were spending to rebuild parts of iraq, they began joking that they wished the fedgov would bomb us so we could get some infrastructure built up afterword.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 8:49:28 AM EST
They are a product of their upbringing. I have a little experience with inmates and most of them don't really think they did anything wrong. They believe they were entitled to steal or sell drugs. When you're brought up believing you are being held down by the establishment and it's right to take what you want you will do it. I see it here on this forum once in awhile. There are no morals being taught anymore and I don't see it changing anytime soon.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 8:52:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By -edgecrusher-:

Originally Posted By fatboy79:

Originally Posted By SlipShot762:
a lot of em need vocational training worse than jail, hell theres a lot that if they had a shot at something even a couple dollars better than minimum wage they probably wouldnt be in jail to begin with


Wrong, most of them have no desire to work or be responsible. Why go to work everyday when you have welfare. Jail for a lot of people is better than home and a way of life. If you took away all the pleasant things in jail..t.v. ,weights, visits and made it hell some might think again.
All the programs look good to politicians and on paper but in reality all prisons and jails are warehouses were criminals feed off each other, make more connections, learn how to work the system and to be better criminals.


while i have zero empathy for career criminals your statement is 100% MSM bullshit,no just work experience not all people in prison should be in prison,agreed nor do they choose to stay there because it's a free ride.From my observations the numbers are quite high ,especially older criminals Prisons have become a honey pot for corporate profit,agreed it's hard to pay low wages if they don't have prisoners. Sure, there are a lot of prisoners that rescind but the privately owned prisons have an agenda and without prisoners their goal cannot be reached. The war on drugs and the outright criminalization of personal freedom is all about profit for the system


I agree that the whole system is run like a business that does nothing for the criminals or public. There are still plenty of people that live the criminal lifestyle and have absolutely no desire to change.

Link Posted: 7/20/2008 8:53:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 8:54:14 AM EST by fatboy79]

Originally Posted By Ray62406:
They are a product of their upbringing. I have a little experience with inmates and most of them don't really think they did anything wrong. They believe they were entitled to steal or sell drugs. When you're brought up believing you are being held down by the establishment and it's right to take what you want you will do it. I see it here on this forum once in awhile. There are no morals being taught anymore and I don't see it changing anytime soon.


+1 I hear it all the time and it is not uncommon to see three generations locked up at the same time.When all your family and friends are in jail it becomes normal
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 9:09:19 AM EST
A large percentage of them aren't even Americans.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 9:11:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By Maxwell71:

Originally Posted By Dawgsquat:
I think it's the so-called "war on drugs".


Because pot is so bad for you and me and all society.

Wait, what?
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 9:16:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By SlipShot762:
bump to add; my dad went from a black faced dirt eating down in the hole miner to a guy who ran his own mining operation, was worth almost 2 mil.

he did it by book as best he figured, and paid his taxes. The irs sent him to prison for not withholding from his employees. In fact he paid his taxes and informed the irs that he didnt withhold as he figured the workers could pay their own taxes the same as he did. He simply didnt understand the tax code or how to withhold or what the big deal was so long as he paid his taxes and gave the irs the info on how much his workers made.

He asked them to come in and assist him with compliance, to make sure all his were paid and to arrange for his workers to pay theirs. The IRS didnt much give a shit.

Basically a lack of education and understanding toppled his operation. After that he was a bootlegger until he got his social security check. Now he says he'll never work again, if he needs money he cant borrow he'll sell beer/pot/pills or steal it he says, since they put him in jail for honest work whats the difference he says.

He's hardly the type who shuns personal responsibility or who would rather not work. Maybe rural appalachia is an exception. I'll tell you this, when people around here learned how much we were spending to rebuild parts of iraq, they began joking that they wished the fedgov would bomb us so we could get some infrastructure built up afterword.


Are you a proponent of the Fair Tax? Business's cost and burden to comply with the federal tax code put your dad in prison. And anyone with even a half a jot of sense knows thats wrong. Sounds like your dad did his best to be a good American only to be shit on by the Federal Government.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 9:32:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By SlipShot762:

No offense, SlipShot, but that statement demonstrates that you don't have much experience dealing with criminals.

They are not there because they "didn't have a shot" at a good life.

They are not there because they needed to "make a couple of more dollars".

They are there because of decisions that they made. Bad decisions that they knew were wrong when they made them.

And, if they were not caught and put in jail, they would go right on making the same stupid decisions.

It is all about personal responsibility.


well actually i do know a few. My own dad has an eigth grade education, can barely write his own name, and was a coal miner by trade. After they shut his mines down he became a bootlegger. He really didnt have any other options, maybe bank robbery but lesser evil n all.

I had an uncle who after discharge from the army did logging until that went under, then he went to prison for growing pot. Other than basic infantry skills, its all he was qualified to do, and he had 4 kids and a wife to feed.

For most those that come to mind when discussing this yah we envision the lowlife scum type who only want to steal and dont want to work, but there are a great many in rural appalachia who simply got no skills and so are reduced to doing what they can to get by.

If you can barely read you cant even fill out an application to work the wendys drive thru.

Hell i know one ole boy right now who used to sell his pain meds he got from the va to get by, but the cop who caught him doing it hooked him up with a welding apprenticship instead of charging him and now he's doing pretty good.

there are many who simply need a skill. there are, as you say, just as many who a skill is wasted on.



All you just said come down to this.

the kin you are talking about are to stupid to live in a real society. If they are to dumb to make a living wage and "have" to break the law I don't want them in public anyway.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 9:35:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By SlipShot762:
bump to add; my dad went from a black faced dirt eating down in the hole miner to a guy who ran his own mining operation, was worth almost 2 mil.

he did it by book as best he figured, and paid his taxes. The irs sent him to prison for not withholding from his employees. In fact he paid his taxes and informed the irs that he didnt withhold as he figured the workers could pay their own taxes the same as he did. He simply didnt understand the tax code or how to withhold or what the big deal was so long as he paid his taxes and gave the irs the info on how much his workers made.

He asked them to come in and assist him with compliance, to make sure all his were paid and to arrange for his workers to pay theirs. The IRS didnt much give a shit.

Basically a lack of education and understanding toppled his operation. After that he was a bootlegger until he got his social security check. Now he says he'll never work again, if he needs money he cant borrow he'll sell beer/pot/pills or steal it he says, since they put him in jail for honest work whats the difference he says.

He's hardly the type who shuns personal responsibility or who would rather not work. Maybe rural appalachia is an exception. I'll tell you this, when people around here learned how much we were spending to rebuild parts of iraq, they began joking that they wished the fedgov would bomb us so we could get some infrastructure built up afterword.


Did you really just fucking write that?
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 9:35:37 AM EST
Execute half of them to make room for more.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 9:55:33 AM EST
You want them out of jail, fine, make them your neighbors. I don't think they are incarcerated for being the pillars of society. One of the few worth while tax expenditures in my opinion.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 10:04:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By 2fewtoys:
Why on Earth are so many Americans in jail? I remember just a few years ago the big number was 1 million Americans imprisoned....why the heck has it shot up so high and where did all the prisons pop up to hold them?

It's just a crazy number. 2.3 Million. We spend more money imprisoning American's every year than these Agencies annual Budgets:

Department of Agriculture
Department of Veterans Affairs
Department of Labor
Department of Transportation
Department of Education
Department of Justice & the entire Judicial Branch of our Govt
Department of HomeLand InSecurity
Department of Energy
NASA


WE Spend more money on imprisoning Americans than the entire budget of the Judicial Branch of our Govt, the Executive Branch(minus DOD), and Congress's budget....COMBINED.

Damn. That just don't seem right....some would say....Police State?



2.3 million is less than 1%...

And the reason we have so many in jail is that (A) we actually respect the rights of our convicts, and don't let our cops beat their asses in the street, or shoot them & dump them in the river, and (B) the general degeneration of social order, which started in the 1960s, is slowly but surely turning the US into an amoral, 'If it feels good, I do, If I want, I take' society...

Link Posted: 7/20/2008 10:07:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 10:08:46 AM EST by Cypher15]

Originally Posted By cwebbcam:

Originally Posted By SlipShot762:
bump to add; my dad went from a black faced dirt eating down in the hole miner to a guy who ran his own mining operation, was worth almost 2 mil.

he did it by book as best he figured, and paid his taxes. The irs sent him to prison for not withholding from his employees. In fact he paid his taxes and informed the irs that he didnt withhold as he figured the workers could pay their own taxes the same as he did. He simply didnt understand the tax code or how to withhold or what the big deal was so long as he paid his taxes and gave the irs the info on how much his workers made.

He asked them to come in and assist him with compliance, to make sure all his were paid and to arrange for his workers to pay theirs. The IRS didnt much give a shit.

Basically a lack of education and understanding toppled his operation. After that he was a bootlegger until he got his social security check. Now he says he'll never work again, if he needs money he cant borrow he'll sell beer/pot/pills or steal it he says, since they put him in jail for honest work whats the difference he says.

He's hardly the type who shuns personal responsibility or who would rather not work. Maybe rural appalachia is an exception. I'll tell you this, when people around here learned how much we were spending to rebuild parts of iraq, they began joking that they wished the fedgov would bomb us so we could get some infrastructure built up afterword.


Did you really just fucking write that?

lets see u go back to dealing with a govt that fucked u over like that if its truly the way it wen down. dont know bout you but thats definitely not a turn the other cheek moment.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 10:09:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dawgsquat:
I think it's the so-called "war on drugs".



70% of them. Prison should be a place for people who have proven a threat to society, most drug offenders are a threat to nobody but themselves.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 10:09:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheFringe:
My only suggestion to further improve the system would be to release all non-violent drug offenders and replace the jail space with repeat, violent offenders. Stop plea-bargaining down violent offenders. I'll happily contribute my tax dollars to build more prisons to accommodate them longer. Take all weightlifting equipment out of the prisons as well.




Abject stupidity....

Most of those 'non violent drug offenders' have other criminal issues/tendencies...

Like the meth-heads who steal copper wire & catalytic converters (helped catch one of 'these' last week... Dumbass & her boyfriend were using a cordless sawzall to chop converters out of SUVs).....

There is no problem with the 0.7% of the population that cannot obey the rules, being separated from the rest of society....
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 10:12:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Maxwell71:

Originally Posted By Dawgsquat:
I think it's the so-called "war on drugs".

I bet the majority of crimes commited are fraud ,forgery,and cedit scams.All those ''tweeker'' offences
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 10:15:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By Cypher15:

Originally Posted By cwebbcam:

Originally Posted By SlipShot762:
bump to add; my dad went from a black faced dirt eating down in the hole miner to a guy who ran his own mining operation, was worth almost 2 mil.

he did it by book as best he figured, and paid his taxes. The irs sent him to prison for not withholding from his employees. In fact he paid his taxes and informed the irs that he didnt withhold as he figured the workers could pay their own taxes the same as he did. He simply didnt understand the tax code or how to withhold or what the big deal was so long as he paid his taxes and gave the irs the info on how much his workers made.

He asked them to come in and assist him with compliance, to make sure all his were paid and to arrange for his workers to pay theirs. The IRS didnt much give a shit.

Basically a lack of education and understanding toppled his operation. After that he was a bootlegger until he got his social security check. Now he says he'll never work again, if he needs money he cant borrow he'll sell beer/pot/pills or steal it he says, since they put him in jail for honest work whats the difference he says.

He's hardly the type who shuns personal responsibility or who would rather not work. Maybe rural appalachia is an exception. I'll tell you this, when people around here learned how much we were spending to rebuild parts of iraq, they began joking that they wished the fedgov would bomb us so we could get some infrastructure built up afterword.


Did you really just fucking write that?

lets see u go back to dealing with a govt that fucked u over like that if its truly the way it wen down. dont know bout you but thats definitely not a turn the other cheek moment.


It is very hard to believe that someone could grow a business to a value of 2 million, without EVER hiring an attorney to properly establish it, or an accountant to audit the books, etc....

To me it sounds like he knew exactly what he was doing, and then tried to hide behind 'I'm a dumb hick' when he got caught...
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 10:18:15 AM EST
www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm On June 30, 2007 —

– 2,299,116 prisoners were held in federal or state prisons or in local jails – an increase of 1.8% from yearend 2006, less than the average annual growth of 2.6% from 2000-2006.
– 1,528,041 sentenced prisoners were under state or federal jurisdiction.
– there were an estimated 509 sentenced prisoners per 100,000 U.S. residents – up from 501 at yearend 2006.
– the number of women under the jurisdiction of state or federal prison authorities increased 2.5% from yearend 2006, reaching 115,308, and the number of men rose 1.5%, totaling 1,479,726.

At midyear 2007 there were 4,618 black male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 black males in the United States, compared to 1,747 Hispanic male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 Hispanic males and 773 white male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 white males.
Links to full size graphic and data
In 2004 there were an estimated 633,700 State prisoners serving time for a violent offense. State prisons also held an estimated 265,600 property offenders and 249,400 drug offenders.

Click on the chart to view full sized version.
Most serious offense Percent of sentenced
State inmates
1995 2004
Total 100 % 100 %
Violent 47 52
Property 23 21
Drug 22 20
Public-order 9 7
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 10:24:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 10:27:50 AM EST by SlipShot762]
dave thats actually how it happened, and the 2 mil figure is total net worth. Never had an attorney until he was charged. I'm sure you honestly couldn't concieve not having an attorney in this case, but I bet you also couldnt concieve of year round deer hunting as a primary food source or growing up without indoor plumbing either. Im willing to bet there is a lot in life you cant concieve.

As for your trying to hide behind being a dumb hick remark, thats cute. I wonder if you are as cute as your remark, or if your legs must be shaven to reach the same cuteness level.

Forgive me.

His operation was essentially leased land, a mix of borrowed, bought, and leased equipment, and "dumb hicks" were all that made up the work force from top to bottom. Even the mine inspector who came by was "a dumb hick".

And I dont think a lawyer or accountant would've helped anyway, the one (and only)local such fellar at the time went to prison himself for essentially talking his clients into cheating the gov a little along and somehow keeping that skimmed portion for himself.

eta the business was incorporated, prob had the county attorney help him with that, and the books and payroll were handled (properly minus withholding) by his 3rd wife.

And who the fuck pays their own taxes, doesnt withhold from employees, and tries to get away with "it"?
get away with what?
not making a single extra fucking dime from doing so?
loved his workers that much did he?

sumtimes i do not like you at all.
this is one of those times.
im pouring this bourbon shot i was holding for you down the dogs throat instead.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 10:26:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By Armed_Scientist:
We should execute everyone in jail and use the money saved on the National Science Foundation and NASA.


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