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Posted: 4/14/2017 6:22:58 PM EDT
Wikipedia
The 1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident, sometimes referred to as the Black Hawk Incident, was a friendly fire incident over northern Iraq that occurred on 14 April 1994 during Operation Provide Comfort (OPC). The pilots of two United States Air Force (USAF) F-15 fighter aircraft, operating under the control of a USAF airborne warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft, misidentified two United States Army UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters as Iraqi Mil Mi-24 "Hind" helicopters. The F-15 pilots fired on and destroyed both helicopters, killing all 26 military and civilians aboard, including personnel from the United States, United Kingdom, France, Turkey, and the Kurdish community.
A subsequent USAF investigation blamed the accident on several factors. The F-15 pilots were faulted for misidentifying the helicopters as hostile. Also, the crew members of the AWACS aircraft were blamed for their inaction in failing to exercise appropriate control and for not intervening in the situation. In addition, the identification friend or foe (IFF) systems had not functioned to identify the helicopters to the F-15 pilots. Furthermore, USAF leaders had failed to adequately integrate U.S. Army helicopter operations into overall OPC air operations. As a result of the investigation several USAF officers received administrative discipline but only one, Jim Wang, an AWACS crew member, was tried by military court-martial, in which he was acquitted. 
Rest in Peace. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 6:25:11 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 4/14/2017 6:29:01 PM EDT
[#2]
They couldn't visually differentiate between a Hind and a Blackhawk?
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Posted: 4/14/2017 6:33:26 PM EDT
[#3]
My God
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Posted: 4/14/2017 6:35:14 PM EDT
[#4]
This was an epic fuck up.
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Posted: 4/14/2017 6:44:16 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They couldn't visually differentiate between a Hind and a Blackhawk? |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 6:44:47 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They couldn't visually differentiate between a Hind and a Blackhawk? |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 6:49:01 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They couldn't visually differentiate between a Hind and a Blackhawk? 
Imagine being the F-15 pilots that have to live with THAT for the rest of their lives.
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Posted: 4/14/2017 6:50:03 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Kind of hard to do if you are not even within visual range.
Imagine being the F-15 pilots that have to live with THAT for the rest of their lives. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 6:50:11 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm guessing those pilots never even laid eyes on those helicopters. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm guessing those pilots never even laid eyes on those helicopters. May then conducted his own VID pass about 1,500 feet (500 m) above the helicopters and reported, "Tally 2."[16] May later stated to a USAF accident investigation board that his "Tally 2" call meant that he saw two helicopters but did not mean that he was confirming Wickson's identification of them as Hinds.[17] Neither F-15 pilot had been informed that U.S. Army Black Hawks participating in OPC often carried auxiliary fuel tanks mounted on wings nor had either been instructed in the paint scheme that Iraqi Hind helicopters used, light brown and desert tan, which was different from the dark green color used by the Black Hawks. Wickson later stated that, "I had no doubt when I looked at him that he was a Hind. . . . The Black Hawk did not even cross my mind."[18]
Following their VID passes, Wickson and May circled back behind the helicopters approximately 10 miles (16 km). Because aircraft from various nations sometimes operated unannounced in the northern Iraq area, the OPC rules of engagement required the F-15 pilots to attempt to verify the nationality of the helicopters. Instead, at 10:28, Wickson notified the AWACS that he and May were "engaged" and instructed May to "arm hot."[19] At 10:30, Wickson fired an AIM-120 AMRAAM missile at the trail helicopter from a range of about 4 nautical miles (10 km). The missile hit and destroyed the trailing helicopter seven seconds later (36°46'N 44°05'E). In response, the lead Black Hawk, piloted by McKenna, immediately turned left and dived for lower altitude in an apparent attempt to evade the unexpected attack. About 20 seconds later, May fired an AIM-9 Sidewinder missile at the lead helicopter from a range of about 1.5 nautical miles (2.8 km), hitting and shooting it down also about 1.2 miles (2 km) northeast of the trail helicopter (36°55'N 43°30'E). All 26 people on board the two Black Hawks were killed. After flying over the wreckage of the two helicopters lying burning on the ground, May radioed Wickson, "Stick a fork in them, they're done."[20] |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 6:50:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This was an epic fuck up. We studied it in school. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 6:54:12 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@Sylvan I've never heard of this incident. I'm sorry to hear about these FF incidents
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Posted: 4/14/2017 6:56:36 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@Sylvan |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 6:58:59 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The report said they did a VID from about 500 meters but fired an AMRAAM and Sidewinder scoring the hits. But MOST single rotor helicopters are going to look basically similar from 500 meters. You're not seeing much structural detail at that distance. What was their aspect angle for the shot? That makes a difference too. Up-sun? Down-sun? Etc. I'd also like to know exactly what AWACS was telling them, what their pre mission briefing was like, etc, before I would completely want to crucify them. In any case, fucked up beyond words. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:21:54 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In that case I have little sympathy for them. But MOST single rotor helicopters are going to look basically similar from 500 meters. You're not seeing much structural detail at that distance. What was their aspect angle for the shot? That makes a difference too. Up-sun? Down-sun? Etc. I'd also like to know exactly what AWACS was telling them, what their pre mission briefing was like, etc, before I would completely want to crucify them. In any case, fucked up beyond words. 
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:24:31 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Kind of hard to do if you are not even within visual range.
Imagine being the F-15 pilots that have to live with THAT for the rest of their lives. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:26:52 PM EDT
[#16]
Bummer.
RIP troopers. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:27:58 PM EDT
[#17]
The 025s.
by some coincidence of horribly bad taste, years later, those two Eagles (79-0025 and 84-0025) were flying a training mission while again deployed to Incirlik, where the pilots' mission was...to intercept two helicopters. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:28:11 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds like the auxiliary tanks mounted on the stubby win pylons may have factored into it as well. http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/s70a-black-hawk-helicopter/images/bl_hawk3.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5sGIeUZoCa8/UFHrn7f6uWI/AAAAAAAAJ9Y/_HVpoDPNbVU/s1600/mi+24+Hind+Helicopter+Wallpapers.jpg
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:28:36 PM EDT
[#19]
Fuuuuu
I never knew this thanks for posting. I can't imagine being involved in something like that. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:36:13 PM EDT
[#20]
Also, why was the BH not squawking IFF if he was in contested airspace?
The more I think about this, the more I think the real idiots in all of this were the AWACS controllers. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:37:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also, why was the BH not squawking IFF? |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:39:42 PM EDT
[#22]
My ship was in direct support of OPC and this is the first I have heard of it. We were pierside in Turkey at that time. WTF.
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:42:24 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They couldn't visually differentiate between a Hind and a Blackhawk? |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:44:12 PM EDT
[#24]
What a shit way to go. I mean death is death whether it's friendly or enemy but friendly fire just never should be the way a warrior goes.
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:44:18 PM EDT
[#25]
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:44:31 PM EDT
[#26]
The Air Force is also pretty good at killing US Marine Corps AAVs.
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:45:14 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They couldn't visually differentiate between a Hind and a Blackhawk? |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:45:32 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The report said they did a VID from about 500 meters but fired an AMRAAM and Sidewinder scoring the hits. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm guessing those pilots never even laid eyes on those helicopters. May then conducted his own VID pass about 1,500 feet (500 m) above the helicopters and reported, "Tally 2."[16] May later stated to a USAF accident investigation board that his "Tally 2" call meant that he saw two helicopters but did not mean that he was confirming Wickson's identification of them as Hinds.[17] Neither F-15 pilot had been informed that U.S. Army Black Hawks participating in OPC often carried auxiliary fuel tanks mounted on wings nor had either been instructed in the paint scheme that Iraqi Hind helicopters used, light brown and desert tan, which was different from the dark green color used by the Black Hawks. Wickson later stated that, "I had no doubt when I looked at him that he was a Hind. . . . The Black Hawk did not even cross my mind."[18]
Following their VID passes, Wickson and May circled back behind the helicopters approximately 10 miles (16 km). Because aircraft from various nations sometimes operated unannounced in the northern Iraq area, the OPC rules of engagement required the F-15 pilots to attempt to verify the nationality of the helicopters. Instead, at 10:28, Wickson notified the AWACS that he and May were "engaged" and instructed May to "arm hot."[19] At 10:30, Wickson fired an AIM-120 AMRAAM missile at the trail helicopter from a range of about 4 nautical miles (10 km). The missile hit and destroyed the trailing helicopter seven seconds later (36°46'N 44°05'E). In response, the lead Black Hawk, piloted by McKenna, immediately turned left and dived for lower altitude in an apparent attempt to evade the unexpected attack. About 20 seconds later, May fired an AIM-9 Sidewinder missile at the lead helicopter from a range of about 1.5 nautical miles (2.8 km), hitting and shooting it down also about 1.2 miles (2 km) northeast of the trail helicopter (36°55'N 43°30'E). All 26 people on board the two Black Hawks were killed. After flying over the wreckage of the two helicopters lying burning on the ground, May radioed Wickson, "Stick a fork in them, they're done."[20] |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:45:45 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also, why was the BH not squawking IFF if he was in contested airspace? Now, that one good Mode IV would have made me a shit ton more cautious about firing, because that's not something that's ever going to randomly come back good. But I know the ins and outs of F-15 IFF better than any pilot I ever worked with. ETA, I should say "the ins and outs of F-15 AAI", to be more correct for this incident. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:51:40 PM EDT
[#30]
They had to get it on.
Pathetic. Fuckin wasted for nothing |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 7:57:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Read the whole wiki entry, but it boils down to, they sort of were. But their Mode I was incorrect, and while they initially gave good Mode IV (the really important one), for some reason the F-15s ceased getting good returns from them after one initial good hit. Now, that one good Mode IV would have made me a shit ton more cautious about firing, because that's not something that's ever going to randomly come back good. But I know the ins and outs of F-15 IFF better than any pilot I ever worked with. ETA, I should say "the ins and outs of F-15 AAI", to be more correct for this incident. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 8:08:42 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, if a track returned valid Mode IV- even intermittently- it would take a LOT to convince me to fire on it. Obviously if violates OPSEC, I am the furthest from needing to know. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 8:10:35 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
at what distance? |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 8:11:45 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For the uneducated, could you explain this any more? I've never heard of the difference in the Modes. Obviously if violates OPSEC, I am the furthest from needing to know. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 8:16:42 PM EDT
[#35]
Does the US Army still fly Blackhawks with the aux fuel tanks? I remember thinking they looked like Hinds when flying toward me during that time period. Vismods are something done for training in armor training, however, I remember a similar incident during the 1st Gulf War when A10s shot up some US Marine LAV Vs armed with TOE missiles. I've always thought the LAV V in any format resembles the Soviet BTR series of armored vehicles.
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Posted: 4/14/2017 8:30:30 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does the US Army still fly Blackhawks with the aux fuel tanks? I remember thinking they looked like Hinds when flying toward me during that time period. Vismods are something done for training in armor training, however, I remember a similar incident during the 1st Gulf War when A10s shot up some US Marine LAV Vs armed with TOE missiles. I've always thought the LAV V in any format resembles the Soviet BTR series of armored vehicles. and, yes, 8 wheeled APCs do all look pretty similar. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 8:35:00 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mode IV is encrypted friendly recognition. The only way to get a valid return is for the other aircraft's transponder and transponder computer to have that code (and it's daily) in it, receive a valid Mode IV interrogation (also encrypted code train), and squawk out the correct encrypted code train. So the interrogating aircraft has to send encrypted and receive encrypted in order to generate a positive return. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 9:03:53 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
USAF didn't bother to program the Army IFF codes into their system. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Also, why was the BH not squawking IFF? |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 9:05:10 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More often than not in my experience. and, yes, 8 wheeled APCs do all look pretty similar. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Does the US Army still fly Blackhawks with the aux fuel tanks? I remember thinking they looked like Hinds when flying toward me during that time period. Vismods are something done for training in armor training, however, I remember a similar incident during the 1st Gulf War when A10s shot up some US Marine LAV Vs armed with TOE missiles. I've always thought the LAV V in any format resembles the Soviet BTR series of armored vehicles. and, yes, 8 wheeled APCs do all look pretty similar. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 9:13:50 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Again, they also shot up some AAVs. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 9:14:09 PM EDT
[#41]
They always use this incident as a teaching point in our fratricide classes.
Some additional info not mentioned I believe it was an air guard unit that admitted to not doing much combat vehicle ID And I believe the blackhawks were squawking the previous day's mode 4. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 9:22:20 PM EDT
[#42]
Damn I'd never heard about this before.
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Posted: 4/14/2017 9:51:27 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Incorrect. The codes are the same for all US forces. The blackhawks failed to bring enough codes for a multi day mission and were not squawking. Mode 2: AWACS was tracking the blackhawks Mide 2 signals right up to the explosions. Mode 4: positive then negative. Cause never identified. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 10:24:57 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
BMP on steroids. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Again, they also shot up some AAVs. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 10:38:02 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Incorrect. The codes are the same for all US forces. The blackhawks failed to bring enough codes for a multi day mission and were not squawking. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Also, why was the BH not squawking IFF? |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 10:43:03 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Best way to get shot down is to fail at IFF. It seems the vast majority of friendly fire incidents involves human or machine IFF errors. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 10:43:15 PM EDT
[#47]
I sat through a classified debrief of this incident at Ft Bragg since the 159th fell under the 18th Aviation Brigade at the time. The level of incompetence that went into this tragedy is absolutely gut wrenching.
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Posted: 4/14/2017 10:50:22 PM EDT
[#48]
There's a hundred reasons this shouldn't have happened. Pilots pulled the triggers....wanted that air to air kill. Guess they got it.
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Posted: 4/14/2017 10:50:47 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. In this instance the AWACS was tracking them as friendly while the F-15s were shooting them down. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Best way to get shot down is to fail at IFF. It seems the vast majority of friendly fire incidents involves human or machine IFF errors. |
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Posted: 4/14/2017 11:02:27 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's a hundred reasons this shouldn't have happened. Pilots pulled the triggers....wanted that air to air kill. Guess they got it. |
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