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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 2/23/2006 4:04:59 PM EDT
Just got done reading the book: DISINFORMATION 22 Media Myths That Undermine the War on Terror

It's a good read. I highly recommend it.

The myths:
#1 Bin Laden was trained or funded by the CIA
#2 Bin Laden has a vast fortune and is able to finance terrorism out of his own pocket
#3 Bin Laden is on dialysis-this one I fell for
#4 Before 9/11 no one had heard of Bin Laden
#5 The US .gov had many warnings prior to 9/11
#6 There were no Jews at the WTC on 9/11-the first person who died that day was Jewish
#7 The world is more dangerous now than pre-9/11
#8 Iraq is another Vietnam
#9 The US .mil killed 100K civilians in Iraq
#10 Wolfowitz told Congress that oil would pay for Iraq war
#11 There is no evidence that Iraq had WMD- we pull out some interesting material that seems to not be widely reported
#12, #13, #14, #15 There is no connection between Iraq and AQ.
#16 Terrorism is caused by poverty
#17 Suitcase nukes are a real threat -sorry conspiracy nuts there are no such things
#18 Oliver North warned us about AQ in the 80s.
#19 President Bush said Iraq was an "imminent threat"
#20 Halliburton made a fortune - they're trying to sell KBR because it's a sink hole
#21 Racial profiling works - it doesn't but there is something that might
#22 Mexico is where the terrorist will enter the US - think more north. If there was one country I wouldn't give control of our ports to, it's Canada. Sorry Canucks, it's not you guys, it's your politicians. The RCMP tries damn hard.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 4:25:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
Just got done reading the book: DISINFORMATION 22 Media Myths That Undermine the War on Terror

It's a good read. I highly recommend it.

The myths:
#1 Bin Laden was trained or funded by the CIA



Well, not trained, just equipped with guns and other weapons along with the rest of the mujahadeen.


#2 Bin Laden has a vast fortune and is able to finance terrorism out of his own pocket


Last I heard, he got a quarter of a billion dollars from inheritance. He may not be able to supply all of the cash, but he certainly has enough money to bribe government officials into letting him stay unbothered.


#3 Bin Laden is on dialysis-this one I fell for


Nope; however, he does have some disorder, as he frequented hospitals a lot when in Pakistan and the UAE.

#4 Before 9/11 no one had heard of Bin Laden

#5 The US .gov had many warnings prior to 9/11


They didn't know that 9/11 was going to happen, but some people certainly knew of the immediate possibility of plane hijackings. Wonder why no one can explain why Ashcroft started flying charter planes only from the middle of '01 to the end of his term as Attorney General; also, what was up with Pentagon officials cancelling their 9/11 flights on 9/10?


#6 There were no Jews at the WTC on 9/11-the first person who died that day was Jewish


shame that this lie is spread so much; Jews actually made up a pretty large percentage of those killed IIRC.


#7 The world is more dangerous now than pre-9/11


This is one lie that is used by liberals and conservatives alike to take our freedom away.


#8 Iraq is another Vietnam


maybe if 50K+ more US troops die.


#9 The US .mil killed 100K civilians in Iraq


I know there are a lot of rumors, but there are multiple thousands of people unnaccounted for after we leveled 90% of Fallujah; not 100K mind you, but it is probably up there in the low 10's, not bad considering how many bombs/shells we have dropped on Iraq.


#11 There is no evidence that Iraq had WMD- we pull out some interesting material that seems to not be widely reported


They had them, we just don't know when they got rid of them, either by destroying them, thereby following UN orders, or shipping to Syria or Iran.


#16 Terrorism is caused by poverty


terrorism is caused by disenchantment with the current society in the Muslim world. They blame their lack of rights on US and Israel, instead of looking at their corrupt leaders.


#17 Suitcase nukes are a real threat -sorry conspiracy nuts there are no such things


actually, the Russians did develop suitcase bombs, but they use large quantities of rare isotopes to enable the bomb to actually reach an uncontrolled reaction.


#20 Halliburton made a fortune - they're trying to sell KBR because it's a sink hole


Halliburton has 6 billion dollars that it hasn't accounted for... something about ordering meals that never got there or some other junk.


#21 Racial profiling works - it doesn't but there is something that might


religious profiling? How can you religiously profile?


#22 Mexico is where the terrorist will enter the US - think more north. If there was one country I wouldn't give control of our ports to, it's Canada. Sorry Canucks, it's not you guys, it's your politicians. The RCMP tries damn hard.


+1, I think that for every Iraqi/Syrian/Arab that we hear about crossing the Mexican border, there are probably 10 from Canada.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 4:37:41 PM EDT
+1. It is a good read.

Blake
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 5:05:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:
Well, not trained, just equipped with guns and other weapons along with the rest of the mujahadeen.


Wrong. The CIA did not train, fund or equipt OBL. OBL had plenty of all of it from the Gulf states. Our funding went to the Afghans not Arabs.


Last I heard, he got a quarter of a billion dollars from inheritance. He may not be able to supply all of the cash, but he certainly has enough money to bribe government officials into letting him stay unbothered.

Wrong, the Saudi's grabbed his money over a decade ago. He MAY have 70 million dollars; however, the evidence points to AQ living paycheck to paycheck.



Nope; however, he does have some disorder, as he frequented hospitals a lot when in Pakistan and the UAE.


Most of that was BS too.


They didn't know that 9/11 was going to happen, but some people certainly knew of the immediate possibility of plane hijackings. Wonder why no one can explain why Ashcroft started flying charter planes only from the middle of '01 to the end of his term as Attorney General; also, what was up with Pentagon officials cancelling their 9/11 flights on 9/10?

Total BS.


They had them, we just don't know when they got rid of them, either by destroying them, thereby following UN orders, or shipping to Syria or Iran.


I'll settle for all the Uranium we pulled out of the country, but was not widely reported. It wasn't technically a weapon, yet, but I'll take it.

terrorism is caused by disenchantment with the current society in the Muslim world. They blame their lack of rights on US and Israel, instead of looking at their corrupt leaders.

Actually, the majority of international terrorists become terrorist once they leave the ME. They feel isolated in the western world.


actually, the Russians did develop suitcase bombs, but they use large quantities of rare isotopes to enable the bomb to actually reach an uncontrolled reaction.

They never got them down to the size we did. The smallest they got, their "special mines" were three foot lockers big. And they required multiple users to detonate.


Halliburton has 6 billion dollars that it hasn't accounted for... something about ordering meals that never got there or some other junk.

It was 6 million. 6 million that Haliburton identified and brought to the attention to the .gov. It was possible fraud by vendors overseas.


religious profiling? How can you religiously profile?

Nope not religious profililng.

I think you should read the book. It was eye-opening. Very well sourced, as well.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 5:05:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blake:
+1. It is a good read.

Blake


Hey man, we can't be seen agreeing on something.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 5:18:31 PM EDT

actually, the Russians did develop suitcase bombs, but they use large quantities of rare isotopes to enable the bomb to actually reach an uncontrolled reaction



ARGH.

I firmly believe that if I am a good boy, and die well, God will reward me by allowing me to return to earth and beat to death the people that started the suitcase nuke/neutron bomb/red mercury myths.

Link Posted: 2/23/2006 5:46:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 5:47:15 PM EDT by PreMed_Gunner]

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:
Well, not trained, just equipped with guns and other weapons along with the rest of the mujahadeen.


Wrong. The CIA did not train, fund or equipt OBL. OBL had plenty of all of it from the Gulf states. Our funding went to the Afghans not Arabs.



and the Afghans fought with the Arabs who joined their ranks against the Soviets. So we indirectly gave UBL weapons and equipment, along with the rest of the Arabs who were in the Soviet-Afghan war, the same Arabs who started Al-Qaida.



Last I heard, he got a quarter of a billion dollars from inheritance. He may not be able to supply all of the cash, but he certainly has enough money to bribe government officials into letting him stay unbothered.

Wrong, the Saudi's grabbed his money over a decade ago. He MAY have 70 million dollars; however, the evidence points to AQ living paycheck to paycheck.



Sources?




Nope; however, he does have some disorder, as he frequented hospitals a lot when in Pakistan and the UAE.


Most of that was BS too.



again, sources?




They didn't know that 9/11 was going to happen, but some people certainly knew of the immediate possibility of plane hijackings. Wonder why no one can explain why Ashcroft started flying charter planes only from the middle of '01 to the end of his term as Attorney General; also, what was up with Pentagon officials cancelling their 9/11 flights on 9/10?

Total BS.



Oh really now:

Ashcroft flying solely on chartered planes: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml

As for the pentagon officials, Newsweek had an article about it on 9/24/2001(thank God for my collection of magazines that I have kept from 9/11/2001 till the end of that year).




They had them, we just don't know when they got rid of them, either by destroying them, thereby following UN orders, or shipping to Syria or Iran.


I'll settle for all the Uranium we pulled out of the country, but was not widely reported. It wasn't technically a weapon, yet, but I'll take it.



Sources please?



terrorism is caused by disenchantment with the current society in the Muslim world. They blame their lack of rights on US and Israel, instead of looking at their corrupt leaders.

Actually, the majority of international terrorists become terrorist once they leave the ME. They feel isolated in the western world.



I would say that a majority of the Arabs I know who are discontent with the US that are here presently are such for the following reason:

They see what wonderous excesses we have compared to most of the Middle East; all of the sinful pleasures we enjoy and feel the following:

1) The US is evil because of its secular hedonism.
2) The US only got as powerful as we did by standing on the backs of others. They obviously are misdirecting the anger that they rightfully should have against the British for fucking things up over there to us.



actually, the Russians did develop suitcase bombs, but they use large quantities of rare isotopes to enable the bomb to actually reach an uncontrolled reaction.

They never got them down to the size we did. The smallest they got, their "special mines" were three foot lockers big. And they required multiple users to detonate.



Theoretically they are very possible; and Russia hasn't exactly been consistent on the stories they have told us about them: jumping from "we don't have any" to "we have destroyed all of them".




Halliburton has 6 billion dollars that it hasn't accounted for... something about ordering meals that never got there or some other junk.

It was 6 million. 6 million that Haliburton identified and brought to the attention to the .gov. It was possible fraud by vendors overseas.



I am sorry, the figure I was thinking of was the 9 billion dollars that is missing and unaccounted for.



religious profiling? How can you religiously profile?

Nope not religious profililng.

I think you should read the book. It was eye-opening. Very well sourced, as well.



Will do, at the very least, I will know where you are arguing from.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 6:00:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:
and the Afghans fought with the Arabs who joined their ranks against the Soviets. So we indirectly gave UBL weapons and equipment, along with the rest of the Arabs who were in the Soviet-Afghan war, the same Arabs who started Al-Qaida.


Um, no. If anything the arabs were indirectly supporting us. To be quite honest the Arabs weren't doing the heavy lifting when it came to the fighting. Another reason we funded Afghans.


Sources?

It's in the book. I'm not going to give away the milk for free. The man did the research and took the time to write the book. Spoiling it on the internet doesn't respect that effort.

again, sources?

Again, it's in the book.


Oh really now:

Ashcroft flying solely on chartered planes: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml

As for the pentagon officials, Newsweek had an article about it on 9/24/2001(thank God for my collection of magazines that I have kept from 9/11/2001 till the end of that year).


So somehow you think that's linked to 9/11? Um, no. That is total BS.


Sources please?

Again, respect for the author's work.


I would say that a majority of the Arabs I know who are discontent with the US that are here presently are such for the following reason:

They see what wonderous excesses we have compared to most of the Middle East; all of the sinful pleasures we enjoy and feel the following:

1) The US is evil because of its secular hedonism.
2) The US only got as powerful as we did by standing on the backs of others. They obviously are misdirecting the anger that they rightfully should have against the British for fucking things up over there to us.


The book has some very good work it draws on.


Theoretically they are very possible; and Russia hasn't exactly been consistent on the stories they have told us about them: jumping from "we don't have any" to "we have destroyed all of them".

Actually, they have been very consistant. Except for one official known for not telling the truth. In fact our weapons inspectors verified the destruction of their "special mines." It even gets into technical problems a bit.




I am sorry, the figure I was thinking of was the 9 billion dollars that is missing and unaccounted for.

I'm sorry, it was 61million that was a possible overcharge on fuel. Haliburton brought it to the attention of the .gov and Haliburton offered to return 6.3 million.
You ask for sources, but then throw around 9 billion dollar allegations without a source. Right.


Will do, at the very least, I will know where you are arguing from.

That's the whole point of this thread. To alert membership here that a very good book exists on the subject. Had it gone out of print, I would go into more details. A man deserves to get paid for his work.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 6:05:44 PM EDT




Oh really now:

Ashcroft flying solely on chartered planes: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml

As for the pentagon officials, Newsweek had an article about it on 9/24/2001(thank God for my collection of magazines that I have kept from 9/11/2001 till the end of that year).


So somehow you think that's linked to 9/11? Um, no. That is total BS.



What important events were moved to 9/11 in the weeks previous to the attacks that would cause a bunch of top brass to just cancel their plane trips?




I would say that a majority of the Arabs I know who are discontent with the US that are here presently are such for the following reason:

They see what wonderous excesses we have compared to most of the Middle East; all of the sinful pleasures we enjoy and feel the following:

1) The US is evil because of its secular hedonism.
2) The US only got as powerful as we did by standing on the backs of others. They obviously are misdirecting the anger that they rightfully should have against the British for fucking things up over there to us.


The book has some very good work it draws on.



I know it is mainly anecdotal. For a good source that shows another side, read Sayyid Qutub's book(he founded the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, the pre-cursor to a lot of modern Islamist groups) for his reasons against Westernism.





I am sorry, the figure I was thinking of was the 9 billion dollars that is missing and unaccounted for.

I'm sorry, it was 61million that was a possible overcharge on fuel. Haliburton brought it to the attention of the .gov and Haliburton offered to return 6.3 million.
You ask for sources, but then throw around 9 billion dollar allegations without a source. Right.


http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/01/30/iraq.audit/
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 6:11:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/01/30/iraq.audit/



That's the CPA, not any particular private firm.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 6:14:11 PM EDT
tag for the pinkocommielibtards..
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 6:16:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By dport:
Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:
Well, not trained, just equipped with guns and other weapons along with the rest of the mujahadeen.


Wrong. The CIA did not train, fund or equipt OBL. OBL had plenty of all of it from the Gulf states. Our funding went to the Afghans not Arabs.



and the Afghans fought with the Arabs who joined their ranks against the Soviets. So we indirectly gave UBL weapons and equipment, along with the rest of the Arabs who were in the Soviet-Afghan war, the same Arabs who started Al-Qaida.



Most of the weapons went to what later became known as the "Northern Alliance". The Taliban did take some weaponry and Stingers from the US but Osama and his mujahadeen never did.

Osama hated the fact that anyone took US aid and felt that "Arabs" could do it alone. Al Quaeda wasn't even around at the time of the Soviet Afgan war, they formed out of the vacuum when Soviets pulled out and the Taliban rose to power. "Backed by Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and other strategic allies, the Taliban developed as a politico-religious force, and eventually seized power in 1996." The Soviet-Afgan war = 79-89. There was no such organization as Al Quaeda until the early 90's and Osama was living in the Sudan from 91 to 96 planning all kinds of attacks in Africa and hleping to fund the Bosnian mujahadeen.

Link Posted: 2/23/2006 7:25:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

#17 Suitcase nukes are a real threat -sorry conspiracy nuts there are no such things



Suitcase? Maybe not exactly, but we did manage to build one that weighed a mere 54 lbs and was the size of a big watermelon.

www.brookings.edu/FP/PROJECTS/NUCWCOST/DAVYC.HTM
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:15:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheSneak:

Originally Posted By dport:

#17 Suitcase nukes are a real threat -sorry conspiracy nuts there are no such things



Suitcase? Maybe not exactly, but we did manage to build one that weighed a mere 54 lbs and was the size of a big watermelon.

www.brookings.edu/FP/PROJECTS/NUCWCOST/DAVYC.HTM


We did. The Ruskies did not.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:17:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sodie:
and the Afghans fought with the Arabs who joined their ranks against the Soviets. So we indirectly gave UBL weapons and equipment, along with the rest of the Arabs who were in the Soviet-Afghan war, the same Arabs who started Al-Qaida.


You're getting the level of effort backwards. The Arabs were there to help the Afghanis. So were we. We aided the Afghanis and so did the Arabs. There was no, ie zero, interaction between the US efforts and the Arabs.




Most of the weapons went to what later became known as the "Northern Alliance". The Taliban did take some weaponry and Stingers from the US but Osama and his mujahadeen never did.

Osama hated the fact that anyone took US aid and felt that "Arabs" could do it alone. Al Quaeda wasn't even around at the time of the Soviet Afgan war, they formed out of the vacuum when Soviets pulled out and the Taliban rose to power. "Backed by Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and other strategic allies, the Taliban developed as a politico-religious force, and eventually seized power in 1996." The Soviet-Afgan war = 79-89. There was no such organization as Al Quaeda until the early 90's and Osama was living in the Sudan from 91 to 96 planning all kinds of attacks in Africa and hleping to fund the Bosnian mujahadeen.


This is right. I just disagree about where the level of effort lies.

Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:18:38 PM EDT
23. That Saddam had anything to do with 9/11.
24. Saudi Arabi is our friend.
25. OPEC is our friend.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:21:45 PM EDT

Myths:

#21 Racial profiling works...



Of course it does.

Only idiots don't believe that it does.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:27:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Myths:

#21 Racial profiling works...



Of course it does.

Only idiots don't believe that it does.


Sorry my friend. The book presents pretty good evidence to the contrary, and unlike liberal complainer books actually gives a useful suggestion.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:30:55 PM EDT
I've got a Richard Marcinko book printed in '98 that mentions Bin Laden and refers to him as a terrorist. Say what you will about Marcinko now. But he was and is one of the formost experts on terror in the history of the U.S. He predicted huge attacks like 9/11 for years.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:31:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Myths:

#21 Racial profiling works...



Of course it does.

Only idiots don't believe that it does.


Sorry my friend. The book presents pretty good evidence to the contrary, and unlike liberal complainer books actually gives a useful suggestion.



I vote with OP on this one
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:33:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Myths:

#21 Racial profiling works...



Of course it does.

Only idiots don't believe that it does.


Sorry my friend. The book presents pretty good evidence to the contrary, and unlike liberal complainer books actually gives a useful suggestion.



I am not mistaken.

"A few months later, after 19 Muslim men hijacked U.S. airplanes and turned them into Weapons of Mass Destruction on American soil, Mineta was a whirlwind of activity. On Sept. 21, as the remains of thousands of Americans lay smoldering at Ground Zero, Mineta fired off a letter to all U.S. airlines forbidding them from implementing the one security measure that would have prevented 9/11: subjecting Middle Eastern passengers to an added degree of pre-flight scrutiny. He sternly reminded the airlines that it was illegal to discriminate against passengers based on their race, color, national or ethnic origin, or religion."

Read about it here: www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1127189/posts
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:35:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pale_pony:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Myths:

#21 Racial profiling works...



Of course it does.

Only idiots don't believe that it does.


Sorry my friend. The book presents pretty good evidence to the contrary, and unlike liberal complainer books actually gives a useful suggestion.



I vote with OP on this one


Your average American can't tell an Arab from an Indian. Not to mention one of the fastest growing areas for Islamic terrorism is SE Asia. I don't have to get into how poorly we as Americans do at identifying country of origin for Asians.

They actually have a better way, a variation of a grid search, ie a targeted search.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:37:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Myths:

#21 Racial profiling works...



Of course it does.

Only idiots don't believe that it does.


Sorry my friend. The book presents pretty good evidence to the contrary, and unlike liberal complainer books actually gives a useful suggestion.



I am not mistaken.

"A few months later, after 19 Muslim men hijacked U.S. airplanes and turned them into Weapons of Mass Destruction on American soil, Mineta was a whirlwind of activity. On Sept. 21, as the remains of thousands of Americans lay smoldering at Ground Zero, Mineta fired off a letter to all U.S. airlines forbidding them from implementing the one security measure that would have prevented 9/11: subjecting Middle Eastern passengers to an added degree of pre-flight scrutiny. He sternly reminded the airlines that it was illegal to discriminate against passengers based on their race, color, national or ethnic origin, or religion."

Read about it here: www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1127189/posts


O_P, I'm not trying to get snippy, but racial profiling is not the answer. Your quote does not say that racial profiling would work, only that it is not allowed. I'm not saying the current method works either. I am saying there are better alternatives than either.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:42:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
O_P, I'm not trying to get snippy, but racial profiling is not the answer. Your quote does not say that racial profiling would work, only that it is not allowed. I'm not saying the current method works either. I am saying there are better alternatives than either.



No snippinest noted.

I attended the SHOT Show a couple of weeks ago and traveled by plane.

I saw the Security searching a 75 year old black grandmother in a wheel chair by checking her shoes.

How many jets have been hijacked by 75 year old black grandmothers? Zero.

How many by young middle eastern Arab males?

I rest my case.

Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:42:31 PM EDT
How does racial profiling now work?



It was not white people crashing planes, it was arabs, plain and simple. The IDF does it and it works.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:47:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By pale_pony:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Myths:

#21 Racial profiling works...



Of course it does.

Only idiots don't believe that it does.


Sorry my friend. The book presents pretty good evidence to the contrary, and unlike liberal complainer books actually gives a useful suggestion.



I vote with OP on this one


Your average American can't tell an Arab from an Indian. Not to mention one of the fastest growing areas for Islamic terrorism is SE Asia. I don't have to get into how poorly we as Americans do at identifying country of origin for Asians.

They actually have a better way, a variation of a grid search, ie a targeted search.



Hmm, I guess there are no such things as white muslim extremists like John Walker. And oh yeah, lets not forget domestic terror. All the crazy domestic terrorists must all be black, as white people are always good people with good jobs trying to make a honest living and future for their white kids, 14. There is no crime in America except for illegal immigrant/black on white crime. Hide your daughters and bust out the guns, the hernandez family just moved next door! Who gives a crap if Mr. Hernandez is a civil engineer, he is a minority and minorities are dangerous.

Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:48:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By dport:
O_P, I'm not trying to get snippy, but racial profiling is not the answer. Your quote does not say that racial profiling would work, only that it is not allowed. I'm not saying the current method works either. I am saying there are better alternatives than either.



No snippinest noted.

I attended the SHOT Show a couple of weeks ago and traveled by plane.

I saw the Security searching a 75 year old black grandmother in a wheel chair by checking her shoes.

How many jets have been hijacked by 75 year old black grandmothers? Zero.

How many by young middle eastern Arab males?

I rest my case.



Maybe I didn't make myself clear the first time. I don't believe the current system works either. None of the terrorists paid for tickets in cash or bought the ticket on the same day. IIRC they checked luggage as well. So all of those things that trigger searches are useless to detect a well-planned attack.

However, racial profiling isn't worth doing either, for reasons the book outlines. They advocate another approach. I think a more intelligent one. In fact, using their system would have flagged the terrorists and not wasted time with someone who "looked" arab. I don't like Masaad Ayoob's opinions, but I don't think he should get shit every time he flies either.

Basically, what I'm saying is it's not a binary position. You don't have to like either the current system or racial profiling, because there are better alternatives out there.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 2:56:42 PM EDT

#1 Bin Laden was trained or funded by the CIA


I was under the impression that he got some money, indirectly, from us.
I thought we gave money to the Pakis, and they gave the money to the groups they liked.
Then again, I wasn't yet born when Ivan invaded Afghanistan.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 3:06:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

#1 Bin Laden was trained or funded by the CIA


I was under the impression that he got some money, indirectly, from us.
I thought we gave money to the Pakis, and they gave the money to the groups they liked.
Then again, I wasn't yet born when Ivan invaded Afghanistan.


OBL was awash in money and arms from the Arabian Penninsula. He neither wanted nor needed our help. We funded the Afghans, not the Arab Muj.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 3:19:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 3:19:55 PM EDT by metalrocks]
Dport,

I respectfully disagree with:
#5 The US .gov had many warnings prior to 9/11

Since you like reading, I suggest reading the book Heart of a Soilder.
Dan Hill predicted the method of attack used on 9-11. Also, he predicted the date closer than anyone else. This gentleman was also featured on a TV documentary on the 9-11 topic. This gentleman, prior to 9-11, offered to take out Bin Laden, but was given the run around by the FBI. Furthermore, he predicted the type of attack used on WTC in 1993.

If you do some additional research on his career in security, it's a wonder that the US doesn't beg him to be a security consultant.

Feel free to make your own conclusion, just giving a different point of view for point #5.

Peace.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 3:29:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metalrocks:
Dport,

I respectfully disagree with:
#5 The US .gov had many warnings prior to 9/11

Since you like reading, I suggest reading the book Heart of a Soilder.
Dan Hill predicted the method of attack used on 9-11. Also, he predicted the date closer than anyone else. This gentleman was also featured on a TV documentary on the 9-11 topic. This gentleman, prior to 9-11, offered to take out Bin Laden, but was given the run around by the FBI. Furthermore, he predicted the type of attack used on WTC in 1993.

If you do some additional research on his career in security, it's a wonder that the US doesn't beg him to be a security consultant.

Feel free to make your own conclusion, just giving a different point of view for point #5.

Peace.


Thanks, I'll look into it. I think the key word there is in red.
In this book they were dealing mainly with the Aug 6 briefing and the "red flag" thrown up by and FBI field officer. Neither provided the detail the MSM claimed, ie no actionable intel.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 7:20:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By TheSneak:

Originally Posted By dport:

#17 Suitcase nukes are a real threat -sorry conspiracy nuts there are no such things



Suitcase? Maybe not exactly, but we did manage to build one that weighed a mere 54 lbs and was the size of a big watermelon.

www.brookings.edu/FP/PROJECTS/NUCWCOST/DAVYC.HTM


We did. The Ruskies did not.



Yes, we did, which proves that it can be done. Who knows what the Russians might have made that we never found out about.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 7:50:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:

Hmm, I guess there are no such things as white muslim extremists like John Walker. And oh yeah, lets not forget domestic terror. All the crazy domestic terrorists must all be black, as white people are always good people with good jobs trying to make a honest living and future for their white kids, 14. There is no crime in America except for illegal immigrant/black on white crime. Hide your daughters and bust out the guns, the hernandez family just moved next door! Who gives a crap if Mr. Hernandez is a civil engineer, he is a minority and minorities are dangerous.




You've got it all wrong. White guys are serial killers and child molesters, Blacks are thieves and drug dealers, Mexicans are thieves and murders, and Arabs are terrorists. You just have to fit your profile to the crime.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 8:07:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
#10 Wolfowitz told Congress that oil would pay for Iraq war



The others are obviously false, but this one I want to address.

I don't know that Wolfowitz ever told Congress that Iraqi oil would pay for the Iraq war, so technically this statement could be false. However, I saw President George W. Bush on TV and heard him with my own ears state that the Iraqi people would pay for the cost of the Iraq war. That was the reason that Congress tried to make the second $80 billion a loan and that is why I was so pissed when Bush threatened to veto the funding bill if they made it a loan. Part of what Bush used to sell this war was the fact that Iraq is sitting on 11% of the world's oil and that they should be one of the richest nations in the world. Bush also said with his own mouth on Fox News during a press conference that 'the Iraqi people would be paying for the cost of this war'.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 8:10:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Myths:

#21 Racial profiling works...



Of course it does.

Only idiots don't believe that it does.



You and I are in complete and total agreement.

There are specific people trying to kill us in the name of Islam and we all know exactly what type of people these are.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 8:29:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Myths:

#21 Racial profiling works...



Of course it does.

Only idiots don't believe that it does.



You and I are in complete and total agreement.

There are specific people trying to kill us in the name of Islam and we all know exactly what type of people these are.



You're all wrong!!!

Actually, we need the combination of:

1) Ethno-racial profiling.
2) Red-flag "scoring" -- sweating khat, traveling on a fully-fueled flight, wires visible, bomb dogs humping leg, etc. (get 3 out of 20 and you receive the "full treatment", as they say at the 'spa'. No "happy ending".
3) Random selection
4) Hunch
5) Add your idea here: _____________________

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 4:09:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheSneak:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By TheSneak:

Originally Posted By dport:

#17 Suitcase nukes are a real threat -sorry conspiracy nuts there are no such things



Suitcase? Maybe not exactly, but we did manage to build one that weighed a mere 54 lbs and was the size of a big watermelon.

www.brookings.edu/FP/PROJECTS/NUCWCOST/DAVYC.HTM


We did. The Ruskies did not.




Yes, we did, which proves that it can be done. Who knows what the Russians might have made that we never found out about.


Ease up on the tin foil a bit. The Russians did not make one. The smallest they got was rather large, required multiple people to detonate and were all destroyed according to treaty with US weapons inspectors looking on. One, I repeat, one Russian official known for outright lying started this whole conspiracy crap.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 4:11:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Myths:

#21 Racial profiling works...



Of course it does.

Only idiots don't believe that it does.



You and I are in complete and total agreement.

There are specific people trying to kill us in the name of Islam and we all know exactly what type of people these are.


There's where you are wrong. We can no longer tie AQ to a specific racial group.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 4:19:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
Just got done reading the book: DISINFORMATION 22 Media Myths That Undermine the War on Terror

It's a good read. I highly recommend it.

The myths:
#1 Bin Laden was trained or funded by the CIA
#2 Bin Laden has a vast fortune and is able to finance terrorism out of his own pocket
#3 Bin Laden is on dialysis-this one I fell for
#4 Before 9/11 no one had heard of Bin Laden
#5 The US .gov had many warnings prior to 9/11
#6 There were no Jews at the WTC on 9/11-the first person who died that day was Jewish
#7 The world is more dangerous now than pre-9/11
#8 Iraq is another Vietnam
#9 The US .mil killed 100K civilians in Iraq
#10 Wolfowitz told Congress that oil would pay for Iraq war
#11 There is no evidence that Iraq had WMD- we pull out some interesting material that seems to not be widely reported
#12, #13, #14, #15 There is no connection between Iraq and AQ.
#16 Terrorism is caused by poverty
[red]#17 Suitcase nukes are a real threat -sorry conspiracy nuts there are no such things
#18 Oliver North warned us about AQ in the 80s.
#19 President Bush said Iraq was an "imminent threat"
#20 Halliburton made a fortune - they're trying to sell KBR because it's a sink hole
#21 Racial profiling works - it doesn't but there is something that might
#22 Mexico is where the terrorist will enter the US - think more north. If there was one country I wouldn't give control of our ports to, it's Canada. Sorry Canucks, it's not you guys, it's your politicians. The RCMP tries damn hard.



yes there are, they are just real heavy
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:11:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By dport:

#9 The US .mil killed 100K civilians in Iraq



I know there are a lot of rumors, but there are multiple thousands of people unnaccounted for after we leveled 90% of Fallujah; not 100K mind you, but it is probably up there in the low 10's, not bad considering how many bombs/shells we have dropped on Iraq.



Have you ever been to Fallujah?
No?

We did not "level 90% of Fallujah".
Most of the civilians were out of Fallujah at the time of the push.
Those ignorant hippies who push the 100,000 number consider the insurgents to be "civilians", too.
It was based on a poll that was conducted where they essentially asked some Iraqis "do you know anyone who died?".
Most people say yes.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:17:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:38:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
I've got a Richard Marcinko book printed in '98 that mentions Bin Laden and refers to him as a terrorist. Say what you will about Marcinko now. But he was and is one of the formost experts on terror in the history of the U.S. He predicted huge attacks like 9/11 for years.


He was fingered for the first attack on the WTC as well, no?

There was a bit on Family Guy as well. OBL appears in a cutaway in the Episode "Road to Rhode Island". The episode first aired on 5/30/2000.

So, he was even part of the pop culture.

Funny thing is, I remembered that clip on 9/11 and downloaded.
Damn.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:05:44 AM EDT
I remember watching a show, Discovery, TLC, History, one of these, that discussed the first WTC attacks in relation to the second. I remember that the FBI had papers in Farsi (sp?) that that discussed the possiblility of hitting the towers with planes. The FBI finished its investigation without translating the papers, and went back after 9/11 and found they had some form of warning sitting in their archives. I cannot verify this with a source, I just remembered it when reading this thread.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 6:26:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 6:29:35 AM EDT by Stottman]

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

#1 Bin Laden was trained or funded by the CIA


I was under the impression that he got some money, indirectly, from us.
I thought we gave money to the Pakis, and they gave the money to the groups they liked.
Then again, I wasn't yet born when Ivan invaded Afghanistan.



Actually, a guy I used to work for had a photo of him giving an IV to OBL during the 1980s; During that time, Army SF would often go to Pakistan to help train Muj.

Suitcase nukes are out there.. Even the US has similar.. For example, during the Cold War, there were SF "Nuke teams", who were tasked with carrying backpack (several parts put together were needed to make one) nukes..

And the US did have warning.. Barracks Bombing in Saudi, USS Cole, etc.. Only when Americans in their comfortable lives were disturbed, did anyone care.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 7:02:49 AM EDT
Haven't most, world wide, terrorist attacks against the US in the last 15 years been perpetrated by Males, ages 17-45 and Muslim?

Embassies in Africa
USS Cole
9/11

Granted there are some domesetic terorists that don't fall in this category, PETA, ELA, Timothy McVeigh.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 7:09:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 7:16:34 AM EDT by GaryM]
OBL and the taliban has been known for years. I.E. the Banyan Buddhas (Or whatever the name of the giant statues of buddha were called)
Racial/Social/Religious profiling does work. (Non-arab/islamic hijackers/homicide bombers, non-hip hop/rap afficianados car jackers)
But all hail the PC police, society must be destroyed protected.

Kind of makes me wonder if the .gov really does manufacture various "crisises" in order to enact various laws over the population with the goal of establishing/maintaining/increasing control.

ETA;
Hmm.. this is not to say all crisies are manufactured but rather some might be. I believe terrorism is a real problem. I do not believe women and ghetto dwellers are held back by "the man" and so need preferential treatment in order to achieve "equality".
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