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Posted: 3/14/2005 8:47:38 AM EST
what is the consensus?
I know 12 is "better" but will a full load of 3O Buck from a 20 gauge do the job?
I am looking for a lightweight gun and the 12 is to rough on smaller and younger shooters.
Thanks.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:48:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2005 8:53:00 AM EST by fight4yourrights]
AR-15 would be better, but I'm not volunteering to get shot.


Better than the 12 gauge, better than the 20. Less recoil than either.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:50:12 AM EST
Nothing wrong with 20.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:51:47 AM EST
A 20 gauge will mess someone up pretty quick. Go for it if that's what you're more comfortable with. Probably faster follow-up shots if needed too.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:51:54 AM EST
Link

"The 20-gauge shotgun is a well-kept home-defense secret, I've heard gunshop clerks scoff. "Defend your family with that? It's a quail gun, for heaven's sake!" Those are the words of someone who has never seen a 20-gauge shotgun wound."

Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:53:25 AM EST
Everyone knows it's the racking sound that is the best deterrant of all, so you should be good to go.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:55:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Everyone knows it's the racking sound that is the best deterrant of all, so you should be good to go.



You have it on a mini-cassette recorder kept beside the bed, don't you?
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:56:43 AM EST
Tag for the infinitely RETARDED replies!!!
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:58:44 AM EST
20s will work well. And there are youth sized models which work well for women and are more compact. It's a valid concept, go for it.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 8:59:50 AM EST
You've just got to find the right load.
My experience with 20ga defense loads is limited, but there don't seem to be very many of them out there.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:01:14 AM EST
From the average distance in a home defense shoot. .20 or a .12 wont matter much. Bad guy wont know the difference.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:05:03 AM EST
The ammo selection isn't near as diverse as 12ga. You're pretty much limited to #3 buck in 2.75" & #2 buck in 3" plus slugs. No OO or #1 unless you handload.
A load of #3 should be more than enuff for home defense. A 20ga might be small as far as shotguns go but it's still a shoulder arm & more powerful than a handgun.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:10:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2005 9:11:51 AM EST by Mauser101]
It's all in the load I suppose.

I was out shooting at training pigeons working some Setters this weekend. We were using 20guages w/ 7 and 8 shot. Often took multiple hits to bring a pigeon down and it was the dog retreiving that was doing most of the damage to the birds.

I wouldn't trust it as home defense with that type of load, but I'm sure there are appropriate loads for them.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:15:21 AM EST
At normal indoor encounter range, it doesn't matter what size of shot. The hole is going to be a gaping, nasty and highly lethal wound, even from a .410 bore shotgun as long as you put the bead on center mass.

Shotguns up close are nasty regardless of size of shot. Now if you have a 30 yard range, buckshot makes a difference. But at 30 feet, #6 or #4 work.

Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:18:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
At normal indoor encounter range, it doesn't matter what size of shot. The hole is going to be a gaping, nasty and highly lethal wound, even from a .410 bore shotgun as long as you put the bead on center mass.



Hell yeah, Brother!!! I swear by my .410 coach gun with bird shot!!!
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:26:59 AM EST
Ammo selection for the 20 is sometimes limited. To find the best buckshot loads, meaning copper plated buckshot of at least #1 Buck size, you will have to buy "premium" ammo at premium prices.


With slugs I have not noticed much difference between the 12 & 20 on deer.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:27:46 AM EST
A 20 gauge is a hell of a weapon. Federal makes buckshot for it in it's Personal Protection line. It never ceases to amaze me how people act as if gunshot wounds are no big deal. Any gunshot wound is no joke. A wound from a 20 gauge at across the room distances is a MFer.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:29:21 AM EST
only diff is a 20 ga has less pellets..... same range and kill power just less shot
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:29:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
At normal indoor encounter range, it doesn't matter what size of shot. The hole is going to be a gaping, nasty and highly lethal wound, even from a .410 bore shotgun as long as you put the bead on center mass.



Hell yeah, Brother!!! I swear by my .410 coach gun with bird shot!!!



.22 with ratshot
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:30:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
At normal indoor encounter range, it doesn't matter what size of shot. The hole is going to be a gaping, nasty....




And shallow.

I have seen more than one close range shotgun wound to the torso that did not result in the victim even loosing consiousness. In one case the victim was 3" from the muzzle. Lost an arm, kidney, and damaged liver, but never even passed out.

Birdshot at any range and in any gauge is not a reliable stopper.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:32:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dolomite:
Nothing wrong with 20.



+1

HH
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:32:40 AM EST
A 20ga worked fine on Kurt Cobain. Assuming proper ammo it would work fine at living room range.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:34:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By rxdawg:
A 20ga worked fine on Kurt Cobain Courtney Love. Assuming proper ammo it would work fine at living room range.



Fixed it for ya.....
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:42:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
At normal indoor encounter range, it doesn't matter what size of shot. The hole is going to be a gaping, nasty and highly lethal wound, even from a .410 bore shotgun as long as you put the bead on center mass.

Shotguns up close are nasty regardless of size of shot. Now if you have a 30 yard range, buckshot makes a difference. But at 30 feet, #6 or #4 work.




No personal offense, Keith_J, but this is bad information.

I have tested birdshot in the Box O' Truth series and it will not penetrate enough, even at short ranges, to be a "Stopper".

It might make a nasty, shallow wound, but it will not Stop a bad guy. It will not reach vital organs. One police officer told of a call where he saw a guy that had taken a load of #8 from a 12 gauge at a few feet. It made a nasty wound, but the guy was still walking around and talking when the EMTs got there.

When considering self defense loads, be careful about "old wives tales", instead of test-based facts.

Use Buckshot, preferably 0, 00, or 000. That is the only way to reach vital organs and stop a bad guy.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:55:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

No personal offense, Keith_J, but this is bad information.

I have tested birdshot in the Box O' Truth series and it will not penetrate enough, even at short ranges, to be a "Stopper".

It might make a nasty, shallow wound, but it will not Stop a bad guy. It will not reach vital organs. One police officer told of a call where he saw a guy that had taken a load of #8 from a 12 gauge at a few feet. It made a nasty wound, but the guy was still walking around and talking when the EMTs got there.

When considering self defense loads, be careful about "old wives tales", instead of test-based facts.

Use Buckshot, preferably 0, 00, or 000. That is the only way to reach vital organs and stop a bad guy.



THERE'S NO ROOM FOR INTELLIGENT REPLIES IN THIS THREAD, SIR!!!

Now Back to the Bravado and Nonsense!!!
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 10:04:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By RiffRandall:

Originally Posted By rxdawg:
A 20ga worked fine on Kurt Cobain Courtney Love. Assuming proper ammo it would work fine at living room range.



Fixed it for ya.....



LOL. I said it worked fine on him, not for him.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 10:23:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By rxdawg:

Originally Posted By RiffRandall:

Originally Posted By rxdawg:
A 20ga worked fine on Kurt Cobain Courtney Love. Assuming proper ammo it would work fine at living room range.



Fixed it for ya.....



LOL. I said it worked fine on him, not for him.



My bad, I misread the "on" as "for". Freudian slip/wishing maybe on my part, maybe.....given the way she's going she might just do herself in the same way she had Kurt done in.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 1:43:30 PM EST
It will work fine unless you expect to be fighting off giant zombies. Regular run of the mill zombies and humanoid bad guys will still die/bleed profusely.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 2:01:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2005 2:02:26 PM EST by TheRedGoat]
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 2:08:05 PM EST
The power of a 20 is going to work fine but----
If recoil is a problem the last thing you want is a lighter gun
Chop some off either (or both) ends to make it fit the job better.
ammo of all types is easier to find and cheeper for the 12.
I was shooting a shotty plate shoot and playing around with a 20 youth thinking I would get faster repeat shots,but I could not make it work as well as a 12 with light loads.
A 12 with a short stock/barrel and light skeet loads or reduced recoil buckshot (your choice) isn't going to kick the shooter any harder than a 20.
If you allready have a 20 at hand go with it but I don't think it it will be loads better
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 2:15:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By GaryM:
It will work fine unless you expect to be fighting off giant zombies. Regular run of the mill zombies and humanoid bad guys will still die/bleed profusely.



This is why I have begun a quest for a 10 gauge home defense zombie killing shotgun...............................

BTW: there is plenty of "low-recoil" 12 gauge ammuntion - normally Buckshot - on the market now targeted towards law enforcement,etc.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 2:18:48 PM EST
By defence do you mean shooting down a fence? I have always found a chain hooked to a JD bucket works great or a shovel if you don't have a tractor. I guess you could shoot it down, but it might be expensive. I would probably step up to a 12 guage though, 'specially if it has steel posts.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 2:19:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 2:22:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 2:25:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Everyone knows it's the racking sound that is the best deterrant of all, so you should be good to go.



You have it on a mini-cassette recorder kept beside the bed, don't you?



You may be onto something, IAMLEGEND. How about playing it amplified on speakers located inside and out?

Anyway, if you go with a 20 gauge, for pete's sake DON'T shoot a 3" shell. Adreniline or no, it's the worst recoil I have ever experienced out of a DB shotgun.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 2:33:42 PM EST
I did not read the above posts.

But my 2¢ is any shotgun is better that a rifle due to over penetration.

I don’t think having rounds going through walls is going to be good for any body.

I like the 870 with a slug barrel loaded with non-lethal rounds,
" bean bags and rubber balls".

But with the last 2 round being slug or 00 buck.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 2:35:44 PM EST
There are too basic loads that would probably be just fine for home defense.The winchester 3buck in 3in mag will deliver 24,.22 cal pellets at 1150fps at close range.There are also slugs both rifled and sabot the latter in a winchester partition gold 265 grain hollowpoint bullet which at close range in a smoothbore will achive magnum velocity. Dont let some of these boys fool you.The 20 guage shotgun with 18"-22" barrel and the right loads are more than enough with practice and a cool head.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 2:35:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By UnusSupra1:

But my 2¢ is any shotgun is better that a rifle due to over penetration.

I don’t think having rounds going through walls is going to be good for any body.





You don't get around much, do you?


Still listening to old wive's tales
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 2:57:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By UnusSupra1:

But my 2¢ is any shotgun is better that a rifle due to over penetration.

I don’t think having rounds going through walls is going to be good for any body.




You don't get around much, do you?

Still listening to old wive's tales



After a while, you just kind of wonder, "Why do we even try?"

If a round won't penetrate drywall, it sure won't penetrate a bad guy.

And if it won't penetrate a bad guy, it won't STOP a bad guy.

If you want to use a shotgun, use a 12 gauge with 00 Buck.


Link Posted: 3/14/2005 3:06:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By UnusSupra1:

But my 2¢ is any shotgun is better that a rifle due to over penetration.

I don?t think having rounds going through walls is going to be good for any body.




You don't get around much, do you?

Still listening to old wive's tales



After a while, you just kind of wonder, "Why do we even try?"

If a round won't penetrate drywall, it sure won't penetrate a bad guy.

And if it won't penetrate a bad guy, it won't STOP a bad guy.

If you want to use a shotgun, use a 12 gauge with 00 Buck.





Listen to this man, he knows what he is talking about.
BTW, what was that address??? www.boxotruth.com
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 3:25:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By UnusSupra1:
I did not read the above posts.

But my 2¢ is any shotgun is better that a rifle due to over penetration.

I don’t think having rounds going through walls is going to be good for any body.

I like the 870 with a slug barrel loaded with non-lethal rounds,
" bean bags and rubber balls".

But with the last 2 round being slug or 00 buck.



If a situation has deteriorated to the point that you must shoot someone, why fuck around with non-lethal rouds? If I have to shoot someone, it is because I need them to stop their behavior RIGHT NOW.

Also, the slug on the last round or two, it will blow right through the walls.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 3:27:14 PM EST
If it blows a hole in someone, I think it's sufficient for home defense.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 3:42:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
If it blows a hole in someone, I think it's sufficient for home defense.



A .22 Short will make a hole in someone.

Do you want to trust your life to it?

For goodness sake, people. Use your heads.

To STOP a bad guy, a round must penetrate into his vital organs. We know what rounds will do this and what rounds won't.

Quit giving advice if you don't know what you are talking about, please.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 3:43:50 PM EST
20 from across the room...what difference would it make?
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 3:44:08 PM EST
well for taking down fences Id say 20 guage is pretty good. But for home Defense Id go with a 12.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 3:45:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 3:46:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:
20 from across the room...what difference would it make?



It might make the difference in a nasty, but shallow wound, and STOPing the guy from killing you.
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 3:29:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
After a while, you just kind of wonder, "Why do we even try?"

If a round won't penetrate drywall, it sure won't penetrate a bad guy.

And if it won't penetrate a bad guy, it won't STOP a bad guy.

If you want to use a shotgun, use a 12 gauge with 00 Buck.



Ok, when I said over penetration I meant shooting at some one and missing the round going through the wall and hitting the neighbors house and worse maybe some one in the house.

I have personally seen 5.56mm go through a man and lodge in the one behind him and have see a 5.56mm round go through 3 rooms where the walls were made of drywall.

If you live out in the country with no neighbors around, and your home is set up so that there is no chance of hitting a fellow family member in the middle of the night with the lights off,
then no problem.


Originally Posted By photokirk:

If a situation has deteriorated to the point that you must shoot someone, why fuck around with non-lethal rouds? If I have to shoot someone, it is because I need them to stop their behavior RIGHT NOW.

Also, the slug on the last round or two, it will blow right through the walls.



Why non-lethal first?
The escalation of force to the use of Deadly Force.

After the dust has settled the police do the investigation and district attorney decides what if any charges get filed, right?

I look at just stopping the person from doing what I don’t want him to do.
That doesn’t mean killing him out right first.


Other might disagree, like Old_Painless.

Link Posted: 3/15/2005 3:59:06 AM EST
20 gauge will do just fine, as a SD/HD round. Any of the heavier loads will work. If its what you are comfortable with, use it. Dont let the "shootin water" tests distract you from using what your happy with.
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 4:16:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By rxdawg:
A 20ga worked fine on Kurt Cobain. Assuming proper ammo it would work fine at living room range.




The best thing Kurt Cobain ever released was the safety.
Link Posted: 3/15/2005 4:26:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By UnusSupra1:
I did not read the above posts.

But my 2¢ is any shotgun is better that a rifle due to over penetration.

I don’t think having rounds going through walls is going to be good for any body.

I like the 870 with a slug barrel loaded with non-lethal rounds,
" bean bags and rubber balls".

But with the last 2 round being slug or 00 buck.



This one made my head hurt.

Please keep your 2¢

Everyone refer to The Box o Truth

OP has put many hours into these tests and they are excellent learning tools.
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