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Posted: 1/27/2014 6:52:44 AM EDT
I saw it initially on that kooky Dianne Sawyer thing, and there's "data" and stories about it elsewhere.
Here's one article from the AP.  The charge is:

About 1.7 million U.S. children live in homes that have loaded and unlocked guns, according to...

A little more than 4 percent of the respondents nationally said they keep guns loaded and unlocked, and 2.5 percent reported having loaded, unlocked firearms in homes where children lived.
View Quote


So there's three components here:
1) Child in the home
2) At least one gun is loaded
3) -AND- it is unlocked

There's a "lesser" charge of having a loaded and unlocked gun but without a child in the home.
We'll assume the 4% + 2.5% being reliable figures.


I think this number is very low, even considering that slightly less than half of American households have guns.

I think most people who keep a firearm for home defense allow it to be left, for at least some portion of the day, loaded and unlocked and unattended.


So let's find out.

For the purposes of this poll, an important deffinition:

"Secured" means inaccessible to a stereotypical 8-year-old who has come upon the knowledge of the gun's location.  In a lock box, in a safe, in a holster on your person, or similar condition is "secured".  
Simply hidden (e.g. top shelf of a closet, in a drawer, etc.) is NOT considered "secured."  Even if it is occluded, well-hidden, or difficult to access, a resourceful 8-year-old could still get it, provided they knew it was there.


If you have a loaded handgun in a desk drawer, on a magnet, behind the bookshelf, etc. you should answer that you have a loaded and UNsecured weapon in the home.



Two things to note:
1) Just because you have an unsecured weapon does not mean, in reality, that there is a dangerous condition.  If nobody knows where it is, and children absolutely cannot physically reach/access it, it may be perfectly safe.  So don't take this as any sort of accusation.
-that said-
2) Having an unsecured, loaded weapon in the home with a child present is a crime in some states/localities.  Per CoC, I am not endorsing criminal behavior, nor am I asking you to admit to it.  Personally, all my weapons are secured at all times, but I know some here have different home defense postures is all.

My interest is purely to see if the 4% + 2.5% figures are accurate.  
I'm expecting ARF to be close to 10% (given that we're elmiminating a lot of non-gun owners from the overall pool.)
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 6:54:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2014 6:55:27 AM EDT by mjohn3006]
I have loaded guns stashed all over the house.  But no children.

When I have children, hopefully in the next year or so, all the guns will be unloaded and locked up....except a rifle, which will be locked up but loaded, a handgun which will be locked up but loaded bedside, and my CCW.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 6:55:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2014 6:57:00 AM EDT by J75player]

IBTP
I have a loaded 1911 on my hip right now. there is a loaded AR hanging over the front door, and a loaded wheel gun on the shelf where I put my LE stuff.
they havnt lept up and kill my 3 children yet
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 6:56:24 AM EDT
That's a crime now?
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 6:56:56 AM EDT
Given that their definition of 'children' probably is anyone under 18, then maybe. Political Statistics 101, tweek the definitions until you get the desired numbers
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 6:56:58 AM EDT
I sure hope so . I have a son who I can  safely leave with a loaded gun . He learned a valuable lesson with a BB gun when he was young . It cost me a patio door
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 6:57:11 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fatcat4620:
That's a crime now?
View Quote

Some places.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 6:58:18 AM EDT
An unloaded, locked up gun is of no value to my family's safety.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 6:58:24 AM EDT
Just as an example, the "NRA Minuteman Clock" is an UNsecured weapon.




Again, I'm not saying having a loaded and unsecured weapon is, in and of itself, a hazard.  I'm just wondering if the 1.7M figure is accurate.

Personally, I think it's probably very low, and yet I don't think it's that much of a danger.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 6:59:23 AM EDT
I would be surprised if that number weren't actually higher.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 6:59:28 AM EDT
I think this thread goes hand and hand with the 6yr old driving a tractor thread.
some 6 year olds have respect for and can be trusted with a gun....others cant.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:00:08 AM EDT
with my first on her way.....guns are in the safe and locked up.  They have been locked up long before we got pregnant anyways.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:00:08 AM EDT
Rather than trying to "kid proof" my guns, I taught my kids to respect the tools for what they are.



We have standing rules that they can see them, anytime, just by asking. They get to shoot them when circumstances allow. And they all understand that as they come of age, they'll each have their own... So learn the safety rules now.






Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:00:19 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bteamleader:
I would be surprised if that number weren't actually higher.
View Quote

but haveing a gun in your home makes you 90% more likely to be killed by it!
shouldnt there be millions of dead children
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:00:27 AM EDT
I have 2 of the 1.7 million.  

They are girls and have NEVER been inclined to touch my guns without me being around.  I started them young with training and by fulfilling their curiosity.  If they know all they have to do is ask to see a gun, then there is no reason for them to sneak later.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:00:27 AM EDT
1) You're not going to get an accurate poll from a self-sampling group of firearms enthusiasts.

2) This is going to quickly become MAH BAYBAY WOULDNT PLAY WITH A GUN.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:00:27 AM EDT
I don't have kids.

But I had access to firearms from about 8 years old.  I kept my .22 in my closet.

Wasn't allowed to touch the guns in my parent's room.  Heck, I wasn't even allowed IN my parent's room.



Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:00:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2014 7:04:56 AM EDT by LoBrau]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fatcat4620:
That's a crime now?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fatcat4620:
That's a crime now?

It is in VA. Class 6 felony, I think.  Class 3 misdemeanor.

ETA:  Ambiguously worded law is worded ambiguously:
? 18.2-56.2. Allowing access to firearms by children; penalty.

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to recklessly leave a loaded, unsecured firearm in such a manner as to endanger the life or limb of any child under the age of fourteen. Any person violating the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:00:29 AM EDT
MYOB
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:01:40 AM EDT
so what are they saying?  that 4% of american homes have loaded, unlocked firearms, and 2.5% of 4% have loaded unlocked guns in the house with children, or 2.5% of american homes have loaded, unlocked guns with children in the house?  
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:01:51 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
I have loaded guns stashed all over the house.  But no children.

View Quote


This.

I typically lock my bedroom door when kids are over, and make sure everything is back in that room. Parents know this.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:02:46 AM EDT
Bullshit story. Farms rural property's have weapons-.22 or .223 rifles at the ready. Why?

Dogs / yotes/ coons/ meth heads in the barn.

Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:04:08 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fatcat4620:
That's a crime now?
View Quote

It disqualifies you from being a "big brother" in some places. Apparently having a 900 person waiting list of at risk youths that noone wants to hang out with isn't bad enough to let me hang out with one.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:04:14 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By J75player:

but haveing a gun in your home makes you 90% more likely to be killed by it!
shouldnt there be millions of dead children
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By J75player:
Originally Posted By bteamleader:
I would be surprised if that number weren't actually higher.

but haveing a gun in your home makes you 90% more likely to be killed by it!
shouldnt there be millions of dead children

There are.  Its covered up by the right-wing conspiracy and Jewish media.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:04:29 AM EDT
How many of that 1.7 mil...are kids of hood rats that use guns to commit crimes? You know damn well they don;t care about "securing" a firearm.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:06:56 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By governmentman:
Given that their definition of 'children' probably is anyone under 18, then maybe. Political Statistics 101, tweek the definitions until you get the desired numbers
View Quote


Under 26.  Visit a college town on Friday night if you don't believe me.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:07:10 AM EDT
Not true anymore.

Because the weapons were unsecured, all the kids died.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:09:12 AM EDT

The purpose for this nonsense is mandatory safe storage laws, and by safe storage they mean disassembled in a vault, and by law they mean felony. Their goal is not to save the fucking carpet rats, but to make firearm ownership so onerous and complicated that people are scared to even try, and if they can slap a firearm prohibiting felony on a few gun nuts, that's just gravy.

Fuck liberals.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:09:31 AM EDT
So is a kid defined as 8yrs old or less, or under 18?


Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:09:53 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Strizzo:
so what are they saying?  that 4% of american homes have loaded, unlocked firearms, and 2.5% of 4% have loaded unlocked guns in the house with children, or 2.5% of american homes have loaded, unlocked guns with children in the house?  
View Quote


I read it as 4% plus an additional 2.5%.

In other words, 6.5% of American households have a loaded and unsecured firearm, but only about a third of those have children in them.



As to sample bias, I'm perfectly aware our numbers are going to be significantly higher than the national average given that:
* Probably (almost) everyone here owns at least one gun
* The vast majority use a gun for personal and/or home protection (i.e. there aren't too many people with only a few hunting guns that are always kept unloaded and locked)
* People here will typically understand that a loaded firearm is not a hazard so long as you follow the rules of safe handling

I just have wild curiosity, since this 1.7M number is one we're likely to be hearing in the future.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:11:22 AM EDT
I had access to guns at 8 years old whether my parents were home or not. I knew not to get them unless someone was breaking in.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:11:35 AM EDT
In a nation with more guns than people I guarantee you that the 1.7 million number is way under the actuality.

As it should be.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:12:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:14:04 AM EDT
When I was younger (17 now) I think the gun cabinet was always unlocked

But my brother and I knew better than to touch daddys guns. Piss poor parenting is the root of alot of these problems
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:14:20 AM EDT
I grew up with a rack full of rifles in my room and a drawer full of ammo for em in my desk.  Did that count?
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:15:05 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By smcclain:
So is a kid defined as 8yrs old or less, or under 18?

View Quote


The 8-year-old is just a mental test for whether a firearm is secure or not.  I picked an arbitrary age that's smart and resourceful but not yet physically adult sized.


As to the 1.7M figure, I would bet a "child" counts as anyone under 18.  I don't know the exact methodology of the national poll.

Yes, I'm perfectly aware that a young teenager can be completely trustworthy to be responsible for a loaded firearm.

But the point is, the antis will use the fact that we have trustworthy kids as rhetorical ammunition against us.  Yes, I know how crazy that sounds, but that's the price we pay for not controlling the signal.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:16:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:18:52 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RevDeadCorpse:
Rather than trying to "kid proof" my guns, I taught my kids to respect the tools for what they are.

We have standing rules that they can see them, anytime, just by asking. They get to shoot them when circumstances allow. And they all understand that as they come of age, they'll each have their own... So learn the safety rules now.

View Quote


Yep.  You have two choices as a parent and a gun owner.

1.  You can go the bureaucratic way and lock your guns up in the hopes that you will never accidently leave it open or your kids won't be resourceful enough to get into them.

2.  You can reasonably secure your firearms, while also teaching your children to respect them in a manner that they will understand the consequences of playing with them.

The wildcard in all of this is when other kids come to visit your house, but a little bit of common sense can go a long way.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:19:41 AM EDT
So lets say this is true



where's the mass carnage?  Oh, there is none?



well then, what's the problem?



For the record, I have two children in my home, my loaded HD weapon is secure in one of these








Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:20:47 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By J75player:

IBTP
I have a loaded 1911 on my hip right now. there is a loaded AR hanging over the front door, and a loaded wheel gun on the shelf where I put my LE stuff.
they havnt lept up and kill my 3 children yet
<a href="http://s27.photobucket.com/user/J75player/media/kids/NCM_0205_zps3da6f40a.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c183/J75player/kids/NCM_0205_zps3da6f40a.jpg</a>
View Quote


a child raised properly around firearms is raised proper..

Lets just say that my 13 year has been an added tool of houshold security for years.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:21:24 AM EDT
They probably have unsecured dangerous things like lawn mowers, heaters, saws, knives, medicine, ladders, wine, beer, paint thinner, internet...
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:21:51 AM EDT
Holstered on my person, or locked up in the safe... i trust my kid. I don't trust other kids.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:23:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:24:51 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LurchAddams:
They probably have unsecured dangerous things like lawn mowers, heaters, saws, knives, medicine, ladders, wine, beer, paint thinner, internet...
View Quote


Oh, I'm willing to bet 100% of American homes have unsecured kitchen knives.  That's 47 million kids, or whatever the current numbers are.

Not that anybody actually cooks anymore, right?  So "what do you need them for?"

But unsecured knives aren't a crime and aren't the subject of national antigun scrutiny.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:24:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:25:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2014 7:28:09 AM EDT by sizzler]
Kids in home.

I leave some around unloaded that I'm working on, usually disassembled, the ammo is always secured.

No loaded unsecured guns, though if I did it would almost definitely not be a problem. Kids have the fear of Dad in them. "Touch Dad's stuff, your life is fucked!"

I know some friends that leave loaded firearms unsecured in their house with several kids. The kids know not to touch and they don't.

I'm not as trusting, but that is likely due to my personal fears rather than the actual likelihood that the kids would actually touch my shit.

ETA: Other people's children are not allowed in my home. It's a small house, no room for kids to play. Parents with children don't want to come here anyway. The house is lousy for entertaining. If they do come, the kids stay outside in the yard.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:25:35 AM EDT
Where in the blue fuck do they get 1.7 million from? Did they visit millions of homes to check for children and unsecure guns?
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:26:58 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LurchAddams:
They probably have unsecured dangerous things like lawn mowers, heaters, saws, knives, medicine, ladders, wine, beer, paint thinner, internet...
View Quote


The most dangerous object in my house growing up was PBR.  Well, not the house, but the car....

Dad was apparently into PBR before it was cool.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:28:08 AM EDT
Everybody commits myriad felonies without even knowing it on a weekly or daily basis by simple means of their daily life and the letter of the law.
Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:29:59 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TrojanMan:


I read it as 4% plus an additional 2.5%.

In other words, 6.5% of American households have a loaded and unsecured firearm, but only about a third of those have children in them.



As to sample bias, I'm perfectly aware our numbers are going to be significantly higher than the national average given that:
* Probably (almost) everyone here owns at least one gun
* The vast majority use a gun for personal and/or home protection (i.e. there aren't too many people with only a few hunting guns that are always kept unloaded and locked)
* People here will typically understand that a loaded firearm is not a hazard so long as you follow the rules of safe handling

I just have wild curiosity, since this 1.7M number is one we're likely to be hearing in the future.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TrojanMan:
Originally Posted By Strizzo:
so what are they saying?  that 4% of american homes have loaded, unlocked firearms, and 2.5% of 4% have loaded unlocked guns in the house with children, or 2.5% of american homes have loaded, unlocked guns with children in the house?  


I read it as 4% plus an additional 2.5%.

In other words, 6.5% of American households have a loaded and unsecured firearm, but only about a third of those have children in them.



As to sample bias, I'm perfectly aware our numbers are going to be significantly higher than the national average given that:
* Probably (almost) everyone here owns at least one gun
* The vast majority use a gun for personal and/or home protection (i.e. there aren't too many people with only a few hunting guns that are always kept unloaded and locked)
* People here will typically understand that a loaded firearm is not a hazard so long as you follow the rules of safe handling

I just have wild curiosity, since this 1.7M number is one we're likely to be hearing in the future.



the definition seems to change as the article goes on.  
The study, published Tuesday in the journal Pediatrics, found that 2.5 percent of children live in homes with loaded and unsecured firearms. Estimates from the early 1990s had put the percentage at 10 percent. The new results suggest a decline, but that doesn't mean there's cause for celebration, said Catherine Okoro, a study author.


here they indicate that 2.5 percent of CHILDREN live in homes with unsecured firearms, not that 2.5 percent of homes have loaded, unsecured guns, and also have children in the home.  the question also arises as to if these were all full time child residents or if they could be, say grandparents with loaded unsecured guns that have grandkids visit occasionally.  

then, here they say what was quoted earlier, that 4% have loaded unlocked firearms, with 2.5% having children in the home.  
A little more than 4 percent of the respondents nationally said they keep guns loaded and unlocked, and 2.5 percent reported having loaded, unlocked firearms in homes where children lived.
 With no link to the actual study results, we have to rely on the reporters ability to distill the results into something that can be understood, which in this case, i think they have failed.  the way the data is presented in the article leaves more questions than it does give answers.  


Link Posted: 1/27/2014 7:31:30 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TrojanMan:


Oh, I'm willing to bet 100% of American homes have unsecured kitchen knives.  That's 47 million kids, or whatever the current numbers are.

Not that anybody actually cooks anymore, right?  So "what do you need them for?"

But unsecured knives aren't a crime and aren't the subject of national antigun scrutiny.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TrojanMan:
Originally Posted By LurchAddams:
They probably have unsecured dangerous things like lawn mowers, heaters, saws, knives, medicine, ladders, wine, beer, paint thinner, internet...


Oh, I'm willing to bet 100% of American homes have unsecured kitchen knives.  That's 47 million kids, or whatever the current numbers are.

Not that anybody actually cooks anymore, right?  So "what do you need them for?"

But unsecured knives aren't a crime and aren't the subject of national antigun scrutiny.


what do you need a knife that big/sharp for?  compensating for a small penis?
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