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Posted: 12/29/2003 8:41:35 AM EDT
Hey All,

Just wondering what the general consensus is of the 1911 model .45's versus the newer more modern .45's like the Sig P220?  Just thinking in terms of performance like

Accuracy
Reliability
Ease of maintenance (cleaning, etc).

From what I know it sounds like the newer .45's have the 1911 model beat.  Just wondering if there are any arguments out there against the newer .45's and what are those (arguments)?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 8:48:16 AM EDT
Let the flame wars begin. [flame]

Link Posted: 12/29/2003 8:49:56 AM EDT
I've had both and I prefer my P220. The P220 just fit my hand better and it was more manageable.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 8:53:53 AM EDT
Both are GREAT handguns,

I have had both and pre-fer the Sig220, for me Sigs work the best, BUT

I had this conversation with Hawkeye the other day, and we both agree, what works best for you , may not work for me..

I dont know alot about 1911 style .45`s, so alot of what I go by I am told by others, I can say with the one I owned, it was reliable, it had been shot alot, I bought it used, well used, but I never had any problems with it, other than the grip not fitting my hand the way I like, it just never felt comfortable to me...
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 8:54:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 8:55:31 AM EDT by mushoot]
I also have both, a SIG P220 and a Springfield loaded stainless, a compact V10 and a Kimber pro carry. The Springfield loaded stainless is the most fun to shoot and, I believe, the most accurate of the bunch. For carry I go with the SIG
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 9:09:44 AM EDT
I've owned just about all types of .45's; one Sig p220, Sig P245, a Glock 30, 36 and a Heckler & Koch USP. I've also owned a Colt Defender, a few Kimber .45's, AMT Hardballer and a Les Baer Monolith.

Frankly, the current breed of 1911's are GREAT. The two Kimber's I've owned had about 3500 rounds thru each with NO malfunctions. The Colt had a few issues with wide hollowpoints as did the AMT.

Bottom line is that to get the level of reliability from a 1911 platform, you have to spend a lot more that you would for a Glock or Sig.

All my Glocks and Sigs have been PERFECT! The Glock 30 is both reliable and very, very accurate.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 9:10:00 AM EDT
I have a Springfield Mil-Spec 1911, a Kimber Pro CDP and H&K USP45F.


If the SHTF, I would feel comfortable with anyone of them at my side.... They are ALL great guns.


Link Posted: 12/29/2003 9:22:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 9:24:02 AM EDT by Airwolf]
I've got an SA Ultra Compact and a USP 45.  The GF has a CZ 97B.

The 97 is nice to shoot (lots of mass to absorb recoil).  The SA is fits my hand like a glove and runs like a champ.  The USP has been FLAWLESS from the first mag, a true "swiss watch" of a gun (and it's easier to take down and clean than the others).

It all comes down to what works for you and what you trust.  The USP is my bedside gun and probably the .45 that I'd feel most comfortable with in a SHTF situation.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 9:31:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 9:35:07 AM EDT by dpmmn]
The Sig 220 is based of the Browning BDA .45acp. So it didn't travel too far from its roots.
The H-K USP is a modified Browning design.
I have owned one they are nice but I still like my 1911's
Glocks are Garbage IMHO but some people like them I personally don't.
If you want the real deal you get a 1911, if you think you need something else, go for it. it comes down to what [b]YOU[/b] like.

As far as cleaning goes, The H-K USP is a breeze, I can field strip mine driving down the road, or I can do it blind folded, they dont get much easier than that.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 9:34:40 AM EDT
For reliable defense and ease of cleaning/maintainance the P220 is the hands down winner-I have 2.

That said, I love my 1911 and I have five.

There is room for both at my house.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 9:51:02 AM EDT
Oh but let's muddy the waters some by throwing the new Sig "1911" into the mix....  [:D]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 9:55:10 AM EDT
are you ready for it?  here it comes...........

[size=6][red]GET EM ALL!!!![/red][/size=6]

ive got a kimber stainless II thats a great gun, a cold mk IV series '70 that i never shoot but is a great gun, and im fixing to order myself a sig P220 stainless w/night sights........maybe today, depends on how much i have to drink later!
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 9:55:20 AM EDT
i've shot sigs and they just don't fit my hand. The 1911 does. I have owned 3 1911 style guns and still have 2 of them.

I have yet to own a 1911 that had function problems. i guess i am just lucky. As for the cost... all of them with the exception of the kimber gold match were cheaper than the sigs.

mike
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 10:01:07 AM EDT
I have yet found a DA pistol that feels good in my hand and that I can shoot worth a darn.  I have shot Sigs, Glock's,HK's, a LDA and even owned a EAA Witness and  I just don't like the way they shoot and feel.  Damn, I guess I will have to stick to 1911's.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 10:08:27 AM EDT
I think it's mostly a matter of personal preference.  I love Sigs - I've got 2 P220s and they fit my hands perfectly.  If I ever had to sell all my guns, the P220 would be the last to go (after the kidney was sold on the black market [:D])

That said, I'm also impressed with the new production of 1911s.  If I buy a new handgun it will probably be another Kimber (no, wait, I promised no new handguns this year, got to focus on rifles.  arrrgh!!)

Try both types and shoot them.  See what you like best.  

p.s.  I never did need a paper clip to break down my P220 though.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 10:11:42 AM EDT
How many rounds do the SIG & USP hold? What kind of triggers (DAO, ...)?
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 10:54:49 AM EDT
The P220 will hold 7 or 8 +1, depending on the magazine you choose.  It is both single & double action.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:11:10 AM EDT
I'll vote for the 1911.

Personally, I value the ability to work on my own stuff. The 1911 exemplifies "do-it-yourselfability".

Can I get a crisp 2-lb trigger on a Sig with an hour of my time and $3 worth of tools?

Can I walk onto a battlefield anywhere in the world and pick up extra mags for the Sig?

(the questions are meant to be serious, as I really don't know the answer)
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:12:11 AM EDT
I like the SIG because if you don't want to mess with double action just cock the hammer for your first shot.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:15:01 AM EDT
I vote 1911, but in its alloy-framed versions.  I have a Springfield 5" Loaded Lightweight that I absolutely love.  The steel ones are just too damn heavy!
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:22:15 AM EDT
I have owned both 1911s and the Sig 220 in 45acp. I shoot competition and I RO for alot of different types of shoots (IDPA, IPSC, OLD WEST).Certianly however mine is not the best of opinions nor do I state this as gosphel.

The guns that shoot the best and the fastest are of the 1911 variaty. Matches tell which guns run and shoot straight. Also which guns are reliable over time.

I have never seen a Sig 220 or Smith 45 win a IPSC match. I am sure someone may have but the Sigs have a high barrel to grip axis and are hard to rapid fire on target and so are the Smiths.

I have seen Glocks win IDPA and I will not dismiss Glocks ability to run well and shoot straight. Glocks are fine guns when new but I have seen some strange stuff when they have been used for a while. (one match, the womans magazine flew apart while in the gun while she was shooting)

IMHO I like the standard 1911 made by a good company and not tampered with. I have three and they all run with out jams, are very controlable and the trigger is better than anything else I have shot in a handgun.

Tom
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:22:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
I vote 1911, but in its alloy-framed versions.  I have a Springfield 5" Loaded Lightweight that I absolutely love.  The steel ones are just too damn heavy!
View Quote


Weight = Controllability.

To me, a heavy gun w/ a good trigger and major power = ultimate 'offensive' handgun.

If I ever have to make 'defensive' use of a handgun, I will be 'offending' someone or something else. Therefore I feel that the best 'defensive' gun should be the best 'offensive' gun, which is STILL the 1911.

Short of a 1911, I'll take a snub-nosed .38, like one of the 12-ounce Taurus models, if weight/size is an issue.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:28:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
I vote 1911, but in its alloy-framed versions.  I have a Springfield 5" Loaded Lightweight that I absolutely love.  The steel ones are just too damn heavy!
View Quote


Weight = Controllability.

To me, a heavy gun w/ a good trigger and major power = ultimate 'offensive' handgun.

.
View Quote


I'd disagree with that.  If you're handling it properly (i.e. good Weaver stance, etc) the extra 5-6 ounces won't matter much in the shooting, but they will matter like hell in carrying it.  A steel 1911 just feels like a boat anchor to me.  I can shoot Doziers in less than 4.3 seconds with my lightweight - I doubt I could do it any faster with a steel gun...and at that point I'd give up a couple of tenths anyway to not have my pants dragged down all day.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:35:23 AM EDT
Uh dpmmn...Sig designed the P220 and Browning sold a licensed copy, the BDA.  Browning also made a modified copy of the Beretta 84.  The gave it a conventional type slide instead of the open Beretta slide, and changed the safety from a 1911 frame style to a hammer dropper on the slide.

Hmm, more modern is better?  I guess thats why SIG's newest design is a 1911!

This goes back to personal preferences.  For shooters who like great triggers and are comfortable with cocked and locked, the 1911 design is king.  If a cocked hammer gives you a queasy feeling, you'll go to a DA design, of which I think the P220 is the best.  As far as shooting goes however, take roughly equal shooters with a similar amount of trigger time and the 1911 shooter will probably outshoot the guy with the P220.  The advantages of a crisp, consistent, short trigger movement for every shot is tough to beat.  All of the DA designs have a lot more trigger movement and that adds time and imprecision between shots.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:36:01 AM EDT
I think that they are both great guns, and eatch has their own quirks and feel.

I like my Sig P220 due to reliability, ease of cleaning, and it's pretty darn accurate.

I like the 1911 because it has a better trigger, is more able to be customized, is slightly more ergonomic, and has a long history behind it.

A 1911 can be made more accurate than a Sig and most modern .45 pistols. You have to remember that the modern .45 was designed to be a ultra reliable battle pistol-gettting a shot .1 inch closer to the x ring does not count much in a firefight!

That said, I don't like Glocks-they point strange and have the most god awful triggers. I don't like how they feel-but to eatch their own. I have seen people shoot competitions with em and do very well.

I say..

Get em ALLLL!!!

you  need a full set!
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:38:36 AM EDT
Bottom line:

Use what works for you.

I read a lot on the different guns, and originally went with the HK USP for my primary handgun. It's a great gun, and is accurate, just not really in my hands.

Recently I got a Kimber 1911, and the damn thing is like pointing the finger of death. It hits where I point it, and is dead on when I shoot it.

Nothing against the HK, my friends and my little brother did great with it, but it's just not great for me.

Hope that helps-

Shawn
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 12:14:06 PM EDT
sig 220
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 1:00:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 1:27:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 7:33:01 AM EDT by slacko]
[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-11/64800/14-45-2.jpg[/img]

15 rounds of .45 is never wrong.  I also have several glocks and 33 rounds of 9mm thru a G19 is a pretty good rebuttal.  [:D]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 1:44:38 PM EDT
Both are going to be accurate and reliable. There are also lemons in every brand and type. Yes, I have even seen Glocks that jam every other shot. You have to go to a range where you can rent, and try out as many as possible, until you find out what you shoot best. That is going to be entirely subjective. Or do like many of us, and spend a lifetime buying them all.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 1:50:23 PM EDT
If I HAD to have a double action .45ACP pistol, it'd be a P220, but theres a 1911 on my hip right now.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 2:30:17 PM EDT
I'm with Lumpy on this.  I used to own a 220.  It was an excellent gun in most respects, but that abdominable DA trigger sucked to high heaven.  There is nothing sweeter than the trigger of a well-tuned 1911.  No other gun can come close.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 3:25:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2003 3:27:37 PM EDT by Derek45]
No handgun on earth works better for me than a 1911.

Looking at the large numbers of companies jumping on the 1911 bandwagon, including SIG, I can't be the only one who thinks so !

New SIG 1911:

[img]http://www.sigarms.com/apps/cmt/img/1911-large.jpg[/img]

[url]http://www.sigarms.com/products/gsr-models.asp?product_id=197#[/url]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 3:45:15 PM EDT
I've had three SIGs and three 1911s.

I sold my P220 and my P245 (both .45ACP). I still have a P229 (.40S&W), mostly because it was my first handgun and I don't want to part with it. I did not take it to the range once in 2003 even though I have a couple of cases of ammo sitting in the closet.

After I bough my first 1911 I grew to dislike the trigger pull on the SIGs so much that I quit shooting them. The guns were all flawless in their performance, but I just don't care for them anymore.

I have two 1911s at the moment and hope to own a few more as well. I like the way the 1911 fits my hand, the way it can be customized, the way I can work on them myself. I can shoot them more acurately, and I really like the shrt crisp trigger pull.

I have shot an HK and a Glock a friend owns. The HK is OK compared to a SIG, but the 1911 is what I like.

A matter of personal taste. To each his own.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 3:53:11 PM EDT
The problem with SIG's and other post 1911A1 .45s is that there's no chance your gun was ever used on one of Hitler's, Hirohito's or Mussolini's soldiers.

With a WW2 USGI 1911A1, you always have that mystique [:D]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 3:57:02 PM EDT
choice #1 1911
choice #2 1911
choice #3 1911
choice #4 P220
choice #5 P220  

.........but then I have 3 1911's and two P220's [:D]    
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 9:42:03 PM EDT
I have several P220s. But I'm a waitin' for the GSR 1911 by Sig to come out. I think I have to have one.


Anyone know if it has the linked barrel or did they retain their current design of lock up?

I guess it doesn't matter. I have to have one.

Link Posted: 12/29/2003 9:51:21 PM EDT
[size=4][b]Sig.[/b][/size=4]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 10:11:41 PM EDT
I'm greedy - I love the 1911, the P220, and the HK USP .45 [:)]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 11:09:10 PM EDT
I sold my 1911 for a knife... I love my P220.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:38:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 12:45:23 AM EDT by AR15fan]
I found the high bore axis and long trigger reset of the Sig P220 resulted in very slow shot to shot split times for me.  I'm much faster with a 1911 or a Glock 21 than with a Sig P220.

When I owned my P220 the 8 round mags were very rare.  So a 7+1 P220 just didnt get used as much as my 13+1 Glock 21 or 8+1 1911
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 7:05:47 AM EDT
I have both.
If I could only have one I would pick the SIG. The Sig has been my carry gun for 15 years. I carried a 1911 before that and was slow to change over to the Sig. Once I changed I found I didnt shoot the 1911's much so I got rid of them. I have picked a few up her and there since. I shoot IPSC with the Sig and have noticed it isnt made for the game like a my hicap STI is so I am leaning back to the 1911 but in .40 Cal.

The p220 would be the last one to go.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 7:23:26 AM EDT
I have both and I like my 220 alot but I prefer the 1911 hands down.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 8:23:20 AM EDT
First let me say that IMHO the 1911 is the greatest combat handgun ever designed.

I was a Chief Safety Officer at the 2003 IDPA Nationals and I saw Ernest Langdon shoot his way to victory in the CDP division (home of the .45 1911s) shooting a Sig 220. Beating Rob Leatham and others with a 1911. (Rob didn't seem to be on top of his game though)
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 8:57:00 AM EDT
I have had 1 Glock 21, 2 P220's, 2 P245's, 3 H&K USP 45's, 2 H&K USP 45C's, and about 15 or so 1911's from Springfield, Colt, and Kimber.
They were all very good, and I would recommend them to anyone (the Sigs & H&K's more so than the Glock [;)]). However, for [b]ME[/b], 1911's are just my gun. They work for me.

On a side note, you guys do know that according to a recent gun rag article, H&K will be coming out with their 1911 version soon. Fact of the matter is, there is enough demand for 1911's, and the market is so big, there is room for a LOT of different makers. Kimber, Colt, Springfield, Sig, H&K, Wilson, Les Baer, Rock Island, Dan Wesson, etc, etc, etc.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 8:59:46 AM EDT
I love my Sig P220, 1911's are nice too. Had a Colt Gold Cup that I sold. As a defensive pistol, I'll stick with the Sig, for an IDPA or IPSC pistol, the 1911 with the S/A would be my choice. Soon, I might have the best of both worlds when Sig releases their 1911. As for now, my Sig rides with me in her Alessi CQC/S 18 hours a day.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 9:14:37 AM EDT
NOTHING WILL EVER REPLACE MY 1911 AND 1911A1!!
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 9:34:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 9:36:08 AM EDT by QuietShootr]
I'm gonna giggle my ass off when the SIG and HK 1911s hit the stores.  After all this horseshit about how DA/SA is better, both these 'modern' gun makers are making new guns on a 93 year old design.  Why?[>:/] because it's still the best?

Edited to add: I WILL buy the HK if it's compatible with standard 1911 Wilson mags and such.  One thing those german fellas can do is build a gun.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 9:44:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2003 9:56:34 AM EDT by Red_Label]
Browning's 1911 design is still going strong after almost 100 years! That's a pretty good endorsement. It's beautiful and combat tested in countless wars. Plus, I LOVE single action pistols. I HATE double action pistolas. But if you like the looks and feel of something OTHER than a 1911, then knock yourself out. It's all good, as long as you like it and it goes BANG every time.

Edited to add:

I would HATE to have to go to war being forced to have an M9 strapped to my side. My hands just hate the feel of the Beretta.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 11:01:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Edited to add: I WILL buy the HK if it's compatible with standard 1911 Wilson mags and such.  One thing those german fellas can do is build a gun.
View Quote


You do know who they contracted, according to the article, to be their go to guy.......
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 12:50:34 PM EDT
1911,


oh, and 1911.
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