Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 1/28/2011 2:48:54 PM EDT
ok i'll admit i've never really given it much thought...but for at least 20 years...since i first realized that a guy named oswald shot jfk...i've believed that this oswald guy must a been a great shot...since there have been at least eleventybillion documentaries about how there must have been more than one shooter...and now i find out the shot/shots were taken from 180 feet away...

WTF?!?!?!

are you serious??!?!!?...this is what all the big fuss is about?!?!?!?

Link Posted: 1/28/2011 2:51:25 PM EDT
Magic bullet.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 2:51:36 PM EDT
Moving target, elevated position, using iron sights with a bolt action rifle..............

not sure if serious
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 2:56:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By a308garand:
Moving target, elevated position, using iron sights with a bolt action rifle..............

not sure if serious


elevated position, slow and steady moving target...60 yds

serious
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 2:56:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By a308garand:
Moving target, elevated position, using iron sights with a bolt action rifle..............

not sure if serious


???

Link Posted: 1/28/2011 2:58:08 PM EDT
Grassy knoll
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 2:58:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By a308garand:
Moving target, elevated position, using iron sights with a bolt action rifle..............

not sure if serious


It had a 4x scope, didn't it?

Link Posted: 1/28/2011 2:59:55 PM EDT
The folks who fuss over it want there to be a conspiracy. The shot was not that difficult for your average graduate of basic training or your average hunter. Those who think there had to be a magic bullet haven't seen the weird things bullets do as they pass through the human body. Bullets entering the shoulder from a shot arc roughly parallel to the ground have exited the pelvis. It's just not that complex an event to reconstruct.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 3:00:20 PM EDT
You should go to Dealy Plaza and stand at the window he shot from. It was a chip shot.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 3:01:39 PM EDT


That was one magic loogie.



Link Posted: 1/28/2011 3:04:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2011 3:04:25 PM EDT by capnrob97]

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:


That was one magic loogie.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEzBeP6pRoY
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 3:04:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2011 3:04:28 PM EDT by Chokey]


Link Posted: 1/28/2011 3:06:53 PM EDT
History channel did a bang up documentary on this, including a re-creation of the shots by a skilled shooter at a moving car with a dummy sitting as JFK was sitting per the videos, and showed that not only was it very do-able, but it seemed much simpler than expected, even to the point that the 3rd shot was the easiest due to the elevation not playing so big a role.

Personally, I know I can hit a 18x18 target at 200 yards all day long, so I dont expect a former marine to have had any issues making the shot, despite the inexpensive gear.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 3:10:49 PM EDT
here we go - exerpt from wikipedia on the history channel re-enactment

Discovery Channel's reenactment of bullet CE 399's pathA Discovery Channel special "Unsolved History: JFK — Beyond the Magic Bullet", attempted to replicate, as well as possible, the conditions of that day. The participants set up blocks of ballistics gel with a substance similar to human bone inside. These studies showed that largely undeformed bullets were possible to produce, if they were slowed by a passage through a tissue-like substance before striking bone. Next, two mannequin figures made of ballistic anatomical substances (animal skin, gelatin, and interior bone-like cast) were set up in the exact relative position of JFK and Connally. A marksman, from a distance equal to that of the sixth floor of the Book Depository building, fired the same rifle model found in the Book Depository, using a round from the same batch of "Western Case Cartridge Company" 6.5x52 mm ammunition purchased with the surplus Carcano weapon in early 1963. The path of their single bullet (followed by high speed photography) duplicated, almost exactly, the wounds suffered by the victims that day, the only difference being that the bullet did not quite have enough energy to penetrate the "thigh" substance in front of the Connally figure, because it struck an extra bone in the "rib" model (i.e., it fractured 2 ribs in the model vs. one rib in Connally). It was also slightly more deformed than CE 399, possibly for the same reason. However, this bullet came close to duplicating all wounds in both men with a single shot, with a bullet having little deformation
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 3:11:18 PM EDT
Wasn't there some kind of "debunking conspiracy theory" tv shows that had a mixed group of people (a trained marksman, casual shooters and some folks who had never even fired a gun) recreate the MLK and JFK assassinations?

Using the same types of rifles and optics, everybody, even those who had never handled a firearm, were able to make the shot first try.

FWIW, I can repeatedly hit targets that size with a Mosin Nagant M38 at that distance, with irons. So can my girlfriend. And I am a self admitted crappy marksman.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 3:14:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 3:23:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
when i was in dallas i got to stand in that window. it honestly wasn't that hard of a shot. the hard part was the number of shots in the time given. slow moving target almost directly away from him at a fixed elevation.

i always thought the same thing. after standing there i think almost anyone "could" have made it from that point. course he was shooting blanks so it's a moot point. the shot from the storm drain and grassy knowl was much harder

This was my impression. Standing on the grassy knoll made me go: WTF does everyone say he must have been shot from here? It would have been much harder than the window in the book depository.
Link Posted: 1/28/2011 3:36:53 PM EDT
Interesting stuff in here. Thanks for the info, guys.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 3:32:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
when i was in dallas i got to stand in that window. it honestly wasn't that hard of a shot. the hard part was the number of shots in the time given. slow moving target almost directly away from him at a fixed elevation.



Three shots in six seconds isn't nearly as difficult if you think of a) the motorcade coming directly at the School Book Depository before making the hard left turn, leaving plenty of time to acquire/track the target and, b) round already chambered and ready to go. First shot....wait 3 seconds....2nd shot....wait 3 seconds.....fatal shot...at a slow moving target, moving almost directly away from the shooter.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 3:36:22 AM EDT
I visited the site in Dallas a child, but not as an adult. I never realized it was that short of a distance for the shots. That does sound like it would have been fairly easy for a former Marine.

Link Posted: 1/29/2011 3:41:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2011 3:42:27 AM EDT by Dr_Dickie]

Originally Posted By churrasco:
ok i'll admit i've never really given it much thought...but for at least 20 years...since i first realized that a guy named oswald shot jfk...i've believed that this oswald guy must a been a great shot...since there have been at least eleventybillion documentaries about how there must have been more than one shooter...and now i find out the shot/shots were taken from 180 feet away...

WTF?!?!?!

are you serious??!?!!?...this is what all the big fuss is about?!?!?!?

Been discussed to death.
Go out to Dallas and look at the shot. I could have hit Kennedy with a rock.
The angle was not great, the car was practically moving straight away, distance was minimal, it would have been a great pistol shot.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 3:46:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
when i was in dallas i got to stand in that window. it honestly wasn't that hard of a shot. the hard part was the number of shots in the time given. slow moving target almost directly away from him at a fixed elevation.

i always thought the same thing. after standing there i think almost anyone "could" have made it from that point. course he was shooting blanks so it's a moot point. the shot from the storm drain and grassy knowl was much harder


TBS was on the grassy knoll????
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 3:48:18 AM EDT
The difficulty of the shot seems much less debated than the number of wounds attributed to the famous 'magic bullet'. I really dont spend much time on 'conspiracy' because frankly, who cares?

Regardless of what you think, the fact remains that at least one person wanted him dead enough to take a rifle and make it happen. Whether the guy acted alone or was part of some group effort, the basic outcome remains unchanged. Some person (or group of persons) set out to assasinate the president....and they did. Case closed.

Almost 50 years later, I am amazed that people are still disecting the video footage in an attempt to prove how it happened.

If I was a conspiracy advocate I'd be a hell of a lot more interested in WHY he was killed.
The HOW part seems silly to me...he was shot...period. Where the bullet came from doesnt really make a difference. WHY it was fired seems like a lot more important piece of information.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 4:02:10 AM EDT
That shot could only be made with a Rem 700, not a cheap Mannlicher
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 4:06:52 AM EDT
Back and to the left
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 4:45:34 AM EDT
anyone who doesn't think it was any easy shot needs to quit typing and practice shooting ...

go squirrel hunting with a .22 .... something

my longest shot this year was a big gray squirrel at 72 yards ...

oswald was a pussy
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:05:42 AM EDT
That was my exact thought standing there. I seriously think I could have made that shot with my 1911.



Originally Posted By larkinmusic:
You should go to Dealy Plaza and stand at the window he shot from. It was a chip shot.


Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:07:56 AM EDT
I understood it to be 88 yards which equals 264 feet.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:16:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dr_Dickie:

Originally Posted By churrasco:
ok i'll admit i've never really given it much thought...but for at least 20 years...since i first realized that a guy named oswald shot jfk...i've believed that this oswald guy must a been a great shot...since there have been at least eleventybillion documentaries about how there must have been more than one shooter...and now i find out the shot/shots were taken from 180 feet away...

WTF?!?!?!

are you serious??!?!!?...this is what all the big fuss is about?!?!?!?

Been discussed to death.
Go out to Dallas and look at the shot. I could have hit Kennedy with a rock.
The angle was not great, the car was practically moving straight away, distance was minimal, it would have been a great pistol shot.


I agree, a good marksman could have made that shot with a pistol. When I looked out of the window of the building I was completely awestruck by how easy the shot could have been made with a rifle.

Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:17:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2011 5:17:28 AM EDT by California_Kid]
From the Suppository Building.

It was a Gimme Shot.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:18:06 AM EDT
Penn from Penn and Teller fired 3 aimed shots in 3.45 seconds from the Carcano rifle on the Conspiracy Theories episode. He may well have needed to aim for longer in the actual situation, but he still did that and he was no Marine like Oswald.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:19:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
when i was in dallas i got to stand in that window. it honestly wasn't that hard of a shot. the hard part was the number of shots in the time given. slow moving target almost directly away from him at a fixed elevation.

i always thought the same thing. after standing there i think almost anyone "could" have made it from that point. course he was shooting blanks so it's a moot point. the shot from the storm drain and grassy knowl was much harder


Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:22:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2011 5:23:45 AM EDT by corwin1968]
Originally Posted By bionicmonkey:
here we go - exerpt from wikipedia on the history channel re-enactment

Discovery Channel's reenactment of bullet CE 399's pathA Discovery Channel special "Unsolved History: JFK — Beyond the Magic Bullet", attempted to replicate, as well as possible, the conditions of that day. The participants set up blocks of ballistics gel with a substance similar to human bone inside. These studies showed that largely undeformed bullets were possible to produce, if they were slowed by a passage through a tissue-like substance before striking bone. Next, two mannequin figures made of ballistic anatomical substances (animal skin, gelatin, and interior bone-like cast) were set up in the exact relative position of JFK and Connally. A marksman, from a distance equal to that of the sixth floor of the Book Depository building, fired the same rifle model found in the Book Depository, using a round from the same batch of "Western Case Cartridge Company" 6.5x52 mm ammunition purchased with the surplus Carcano weapon in early 1963. The path of their single bullet (followed by high speed photography) duplicated, almost exactly, the wounds suffered by the victims that day, the only difference being that the bullet did not quite have enough energy to penetrate the "thigh" substance in front of the Connally figure, because it struck an extra bone in the "rib" model (i.e., it fractured 2 ribs in the model vs. one rib in Connally). It was also slightly more deformed than CE 399, possibly for the same reason. However, this bullet came close to duplicating all wounds in both men with a single shot, with a bullet having little deformation


This was re-broadcast just yesterday and of course, I had to watch it for about the 4th time!

One thing that struck me was that when the marksman fired the shot it almost sounded like a squib round. I'm not familiar with the round they (and Oswald) used but I assumed it was a high powered cartridge on par with a .30-06 and other similar cartridges. This thing sounded like a .22 being fired. I don't know if the sound was muffled for the broadcast but the visible recoil seemed to match the sound.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:49:23 AM EDT
The bullet used-

Military surplus round nose


The 6.5x52 Carcano is an effective deer cartridge up to 200 m (220 yards), with properly-bulleted ammunition. Its main drawback in military use was that the standard Italian service round had a round-nosed bullet and was highly stable (did not usually tumble unless it hit bone), giving many narrow-channel straight-through wounds. This characteristic is due to the high sectional density of the round (the extreme bullet length compared to its diameter).



Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:55:15 AM EDT
I have been to Dealy Plaza twice. The first time, I couldn't believe how short the distance was and it kind of ticked me off. I felt I had been betrayed by all the conspiracy stuff I had read making it sound like some kind of superhuman shot. I was with my wife and told her, "That isn't that far. I have shot running coyotes much farther than that."

I believe Oswald was the only shooter.

Patrick
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 5:58:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hushpuppy:
anyone who doesn't think it was any easy shot needs to quit typing and practice shooting ...

go squirrel hunting with a .22 .... something

my longest shot this year was a big gray squirrel at 72 yards ...

oswald was a pussy


Nice shooting on a target that small.
I think the big thing with the Oswald shots(other than conspiracy theories) is that so many non-gun people think surplus rifles are so inaccurate.Even the average 10 rounds per year deer hunter in many cases thinks nothing but a new sporter rifle is capable of famous shots like that.Sure, in many cases you won't get sub MOA groups, but Carcanos, Mausers and Enfields were made to make enemy soldiers dead while preventing their users from becoming dead. At short range this is easy for anyone with average skills. Shit, I'm not a competitive shooter and I can hit a 5 gallon bucket at 400+ yards with my rack grade Garand, 60 yards on a target moving at parade speeds would be a joke.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 6:02:23 AM EDT
Because they arent hunters???? and they want to believe only some HUGE feat could have taken down their beloved JFK?
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 6:04:30 AM EDT
lets see the limmo was moving at about 5 mhp or about 7 ft per second. The bullet took about 3/100 of a sec flight time. So the lead would be a whopping 2.5"
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 6:08:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By churrasco:
Originally Posted By a308garand:
Moving target, elevated position, using iron sights with a bolt action rifle..............

not sure if serious


elevated position, slow and steady moving target...60 yds

serious


FYI, the moving target was moving away from LHO at a very shallow angle, couple that with the fact the target was slow (walking pace) and LHO was using a high caliber rifle it means there was little to no lead required.

Also LHO was using a scope.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 6:15:18 AM EDT
So what caliber was the guy in the grassy knoll using?
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 6:16:24 AM EDT
When I was growing up my Dad was convinced there were more shooters.

I watched a program once were a couple of guys completely reconstructed the shot. They had the targets moving, they were shooting from the correct elevation.

The degree of difficulty of their shot was increased because they were in a manlift and it was windy. There shooting platform was swaying slightly and of course there was the winds effect on the bullet.

They made the shot easily and repeatedly.

I am convinced Oswald acted alone.

"Oswald was a fag"
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 6:25:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2011 6:27:48 AM EDT by Clockwork138]
Originally Posted By patsue:
I have been to Dealy Plaza twice. The first time, I couldn't believe how short the distance was and it kind of ticked me off. I felt I had been betrayed by all the conspiracy stuff I had read making it sound like some kind of superhuman shot. I was with my wife and told her, "That isn't that far. I have shot running coyotes much farther than that."

I believe Oswald was the only shooter.

Patrick


Yep. If you are familiar with rifles you know just how doable of a shot it was. I was kind of pissed about it as well. A military trained shooter can't hit a 6-8" target at 60-70yds utilizing optics? Are you fucking kidding me!? It was no where near as incredible of a shot as all of the idiots make it out to be.

Originally Posted By Nichonator:
So what caliber was the guy in the grassy knoll using?


Whatever it was it had to be a "dum dum bullet" according to several conspiracy theory programs. Everyone knows that was too traumatic of a wound to be from a full-sized rifle cartridge.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 6:33:44 AM EDT
Shitty rifle.

Back and to the left.

P.S. You cannot get to where Oswald allegedly fired the shots - it's blocked off.

I'm really surprised arfcom would buy this kind of BS from the GOVERNMENT.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 6:38:28 AM EDT
Not to mention the people who say a bullet can't cause that sort of reaction. I don't think they know anything about the round/bullet used.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 6:44:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By packinheavy:
I visited the site in Dallas a child, but not as an adult. I never realized it was that short of a distance for the shots. That does sound like it would have been fairly easy for a former Marine.



I think this is one of the few cases where "ex Marine" is appropriate.

And yeah, the conspiracy nuts are just doing it to be contrary, not for any logical reason.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 6:58:29 AM EDT
Never underestimate a determined individual. Regardless of his skill or weapon, I fully believe Oswald could have made that killing from even longer distances and worse conditions, based purely on motivation and determination alone. He would have just taken even more shots.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 7:00:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mousehunter:
lets see the limmo was moving at about 5 mhp or about 7 ft per second. The bullet took about 3/100 of a sec flight time. So the lead would be a whopping 2.5"

And relative to his shooting position, the car is sort of moving out an angle, so it's probably more like 2" on the first shot and 1.5" on the last.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 7:02:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2011 7:04:01 AM EDT by Chaingun]
They blocked off the actual window, but we were allowed to stand at the next window. Super easy shot, with the motorcade driving away from the window instead of across.

Regarding the super bullet, that was a high powered round that tumbled.
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 7:04:16 AM EDT
cue Oliver Stone posters
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 7:08:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/29/2011 7:09:40 AM EDT by patsue]
Originally Posted By CSSK:
Shitty rifle.

Back and to the left.

P.S. You cannot get to where Oswald allegedly fired the shots - it's blocked off.

I'm really surprised arfcom would buy this kind of BS from the GOVERNMENT.


Yeah, but you can look out the window right next to it and see the cross mark in the street where the head shot happened. Not far at all. I have no doubt I could hit a head sized target like that with the peep sights of my Bushie let alone having a 4X scope.

Patrick
Link Posted: 1/29/2011 7:13:03 AM EDT
Here's a factoid for you... when they test fired the rifle later, they could not hit the target. They tried adjusting the scope and ran out of clicks before they got it on target. Taking the scope off they found the mount was installed crooked, the rifle poorly drilled. They had to remount the mount and scope to get it on target.

Another fact... the "magic bullet" was not removed from a body. It was found on the stretcher that JFK was brought in on. Jack Ruby was seen standing by the stretcher looking at it.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top