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Posted: 8/12/2010 5:13:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/27/2010 11:54:17 AM EST by jrzy]
I will post proof in a couple of days.
Basically if a shotgun comes from the factory with a pistol grip or it's a virgin receiver never having had any stock other than a pistol grip it can have any barrel length and not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form 4.
There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe)
It must be smooth bore too.
This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two.
Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule.
I also have the answer for this.
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:18:56 PM EST
Cool
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:19:37 PM EST
What?
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:20:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By nick89302:
What?


Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:20:36 PM EST
Is it a pistol or a handgun?
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:20:48 PM EST
What he's smoking... I wants it.



- BG
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:21:32 PM EST
I doubt it.
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:22:01 PM EST
Hmmmm
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:22:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/12/2010 5:26:25 PM EST by jal777]
Tagged.

.
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:22:52 PM EST

Join Date: Check

Post Count: Check

Ah, shit. jrzy may be on to something.
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:24:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By NoStockBikes:
Is it a pistol or a handgun?

nope a standard smooth bore shotgun


Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:24:51 PM EST
tag
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:24:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/12/2010 5:29:52 PM EST by Renegade13B]
Originally Posted By jrzy:
I will post proof in a couple of days.


DAY 1
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:25:17 PM EST
pm sent .
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:25:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
I doubt it.

I'll tell you what
I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong
If you're wrong you do the same.
Bet?
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:26:50 PM EST
In for the head spinning.
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:27:36 PM EST
Interesting.

Consider this a tag.
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:29:06 PM EST
Of course it isn't an AOW. It's a SBS. Duh.
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:29:11 PM EST
black powder, pistol, 1898 or older, etc..
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:30:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Morne:
Of course it isn't an AOW. It's a SBS. Duh.

"not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form 4"

dont sbs' also require one of those forms?
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:30:06 PM EST
Would like to see how this plays out
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:31:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
I doubt it.

I'll tell you what
I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong
If you're wrong you do the same.
Bet?


A bet against Kieth_J with regards to knowledge? Aw shit, I'm gettin popcorn for this
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:32:25 PM EST
BRB, I'm gonna go take a hacksaw to my 870 barrel. An ARFCOMMER said it's ok, so I know I won't get in trouble. The internet said so.














Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:34:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/12/2010 5:37:29 PM EST by jrzy]

Originally Posted By Morne:
Of course it isn't an AOW. It's a SBS. Duh.

Nope , it cannot have a full stock or it would be an SBS and a title 2 weapon.
This is a straight up walk into your gun shop and buy it on a 4473
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:34:25 PM EST
This interests me greatly.

Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:34:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Cypher15:
black powder, pistol, 1898 or older, etc..

nope
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:34:39 PM EST
off to find the OP in the "thursday night what ya drinkin" thread
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:35:10 PM EST
This should be interesting.
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:35:21 PM EST
ATF troll account??????
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:37:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Rob762:
Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
I doubt it.

I'll tell you what
I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong
If you're wrong you do the same.
Bet?


A bet against Kieth_J with regards to knowledge? Aw shit, I'm gettin popcorn for this

I am an 07 FFL/SOT who has spent 2 days on the phone and many faxes between us and the Tech branch of the ATF
This is not speculation or fantasy, it's real and happening
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:37:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By SightsOnTarget:
BRB, I'm gonna go take a hacksaw to my 870 barrel. An ARFCOMMER said it's ok, so I know I won't get in trouble. The internet said so.
















Ok, Randy...

Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:37:19 PM EST
Does this mean I can get a KAC masterkey?!


interesting.....

Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:37:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By Cypher15:

Originally Posted By Morne:
Of course it isn't an AOW. It's a SBS. Duh.

"not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form 4"

dont sbs' also require one of those forms?


Irrelevant. AOW only requires a $5 transfer fee, while FA, SBR and SBS require $200 transfer fees. There IS a difference.

The OP claims it is not an AOW. He is technically/legally right. And there is a monetary distinction in the tax which reflects that difference.
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:38:32 PM EST
I think I know where you're going with this. According to the ATF, you can have a barrel shorter than 16" on a Browning 1919A4 as long as the OAL is greater than 26" because the 1919 is just a firearm, not a rifle. The ATF classifies a pistol grip only shotgun as just a firearm also (which is why you have to be 21 or over to buy one from a dealer). So, as long as the OAL is greater than 26", it shouldn't matter what the barrel length is.

I would want that in writing, though.
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:38:54 PM EST
I thought the NFA was clear on these definitions. I guess we'll have to see what drama llama is cooking up with this build-up here, instead of having proof and posting the story all at once.
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:39:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By snowcrab:
Does this mean I can get a KAC masterkey?!


interesting.....

There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe)
It must be smooth bore too.
This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two.
Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule.




Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:40:18 PM EST
Hide your dog.....I'm just sayin.
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:40:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Morne:
Originally Posted By Cypher15:

Originally Posted By Morne:
Of course it isn't an AOW. It's a SBS. Duh.

"not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form 4"

dont sbs' also require one of those forms?


Irrelevant. AOW only requires a $5 transfer fee, while FA, SBR and SBS require $200 transfer fees. There IS a difference.

The OP claims it is not an AOW. He is technically/legally right. And there is a monetary distinction in the tax which reflects that difference.
There is no NFA tax to be paid because thus will be a title one weapon the same as any other shotgun off the rack

Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:40:58 PM EST
IN.
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:41:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
I doubt it.

I'll tell you what
I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong
If you're wrong you do the same.
Bet?
Are you sure?
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Barrel length is determined by measuring from the breech face to muzzle for all but revolvers which are measured from cylinder gap to muzzle.

Anything with a bore diameter over "one half inch" defined in rifles by land to land diameter (not groove), is a DD unless exempted by the Director (and there is none now). Therefore, all shotguns over 43 gauge in diameter are blanket exempted by the Director who HAS in past, revoked the sporting clause exemption on certain shotguns. And shotguns must have a barrel length over 18", otherwise it is a short barreled shotgun

(6) The term "short-barreled shotgun"
means a shotgun having one or
more barrels less than eighteen inches
in length and any weapon made from a
shotgun (whether by alteration, modification,
or otherwise) if such weapon as
modified has an overall length of less
than twenty-six inches.

Good luck. Going to be hard to get by the barrel length restriction

Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:42:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
I thought the NFA was clear on these definitions. I guess we'll have to see what drama llama is cooking up with this build-up here, instead of having proof and posting the story all at once.
Drama llama?
I didn't post the proof because the Tech branch letter is not here yet.
But it's coming smart ass
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:42:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/12/2010 5:43:36 PM EST by UncleJerr]
i have heard that the pistol grip has to be integral to the receiver (all one piece) thus, it is no different from say, the *forgive me father* Judge revolver


ETA - for it to be considered a smoothbore handgun vs. an sbs
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:42:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
I doubt it.

I'll tell you what
I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong
If you're wrong you do the same.
Bet?
Are you sure?
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Barrel length is determined by measuring from the breech face to muzzle for all but revolvers which are measured from cylinder gap to muzzle.

Anything with a bore diameter over "one half inch" defined in rifles by land to land diameter (not groove), is a DD unless exempted by the Director (and there is none now). Therefore, all shotguns over 43 gauge in diameter are blanket exempted by the Director who HAS in past, revoked the sporting clause exemption on certain shotguns. And shotguns must have a barrel length over 18", otherwise it is a short barreled shotgun

(6) The term "short-barreled shotgun"
means a shotgun having one or
more barrels less than eighteen inches
in length and any weapon made from a
shotgun (whether by alteration, modification,
or otherwise) if such weapon as
modified has an overall length of less
than twenty-six inches.

Good luck. Going to be hard to get by the barrel length restriction


I'm betting that the other guy who mentioned it wasn't a shotgun to begin with but rather a "firearm" might be right.

Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:43:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By TapperMan:
I think I know where you're going with this. According to the ATF, you can have a barrel shorter than 16" on a Browning 1919A4 as long as the OAL is greater than 26" because the 1919 is just a firearm, not a rifle. The ATF classifies a pistol grip only shotgun as just a firearm also (which is why you have to be 21 or over to buy one from a dealer). So, as long as the OAL is greater than 26", it shouldn't matter what the barrel length is.

I would want that in writing, though.


I was going to wait but I have seen a letter saying just that in reference to a shotgun
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:43:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
I thought the NFA was clear on these definitions. I guess we'll have to see what drama llama is cooking up with this build-up here, instead of having proof and posting the story all at once.
Drama llama?
I didn't post the proof because the Tech branch letter is not here yet.
But it's coming smart ass

I'm tracking, drama llama, you could have just waited until it was there.

Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:44:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By snowcrab:
Does this mean I can get a KAC masterkey?!


interesting.....

There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe)
It must be smooth bore too.
This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two.
Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule.






So the distance between the breach end of the barrel and the rear-most part of the pistol grip is 12"?
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:44:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By NoStockBikes:
Is it a pistol or a handgun?

nope a standard smooth bore shotgun Firearm




Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:44:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
I doubt it.

I'll tell you what
I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong
If you're wrong you do the same.
Bet?
Are you sure?
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Barrel length is determined by measuring from the breech face to muzzle for all but revolvers which are measured from cylinder gap to muzzle.

Anything with a bore diameter over "one half inch" defined in rifles by land to land diameter (not groove), is a DD unless exempted by the Director (and there is none now). Therefore, all shotguns over 43 gauge in diameter are blanket exempted by the Director who HAS in past, revoked the sporting clause exemption on certain shotguns. And shotguns must have a barrel length over 18", otherwise it is a short barreled shotgun

(6) The term "short-barreled shotgun"
means a shotgun having one or
more barrels less than eighteen inches
in length and any weapon made from a
shotgun (whether by alteration, modification,
or otherwise) if such weapon as
modified has an overall length of less
than twenty-six inches.

Good luck. Going to be hard to get by the barrel length restriction

We have a bet or not keith ?
The Tech branch letter posted by me once it arrves will suffice for proof as long as it states what I said in the top post, bet?


Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:46:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By UncleJerr:
i have heard that the pistol grip has to be integral to the receiver (all one piece) thus, it is no different from say, the *forgive me father* Judge revolver


ETA - for it to be considered a smoothbore handgun vs. an sbs
wrong, nothing to do with it, the judge is a pistol, it has a rifled barrel

Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:46:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
I doubt it.

I'll tell you what
I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong
If you're wrong you do the same.
Bet?
Are you sure?
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Barrel length is determined by measuring from the breech face to muzzle for all but revolvers which are measured from cylinder gap to muzzle.

Anything with a bore diameter over "one half inch" defined in rifles by land to land diameter (not groove), is a DD unless exempted by the Director (and there is none now). Therefore, all shotguns over 43 gauge in diameter are blanket exempted by the Director who HAS in past, revoked the sporting clause exemption on certain shotguns. And shotguns must have a barrel length over 18", otherwise it is a short barreled shotgun

(6) The term "short-barreled shotgun"
means a shotgun having one or
more barrels less than eighteen inches
in length and any weapon made from a
shotgun (whether by alteration, modification,
or otherwise) if such weapon as
modified has an overall length of less
than twenty-six inches.

Good luck. Going to be hard to get by the barrel length restriction


It could be a .410 to skirt the DD classification, ya know...
Link Posted: 8/12/2010 5:47:03 PM EST
Yeah I think SURBU would have stopped making all those cool short shotguns out of pistol grip pumps and paying the $5 to do it also... ( That is, if what you are saying is true, but I doubt it.
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